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Star Citizen, I am disappointed.

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Comments

  • 03cobradude03cobradude Member UncommonPosts: 47
    Um its a pre-alpha, no shit that its going to "disappoint" you.
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Tiamat64 said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    Again, if you want me to do things the way I work, you'd have to actually pay me for it.

    But that's fine.  You can keep supporting Star Citizen.  At this point I'm more confident than ever that the truth will come out soon enough anyways.  And that's what really matters.
    Ahhh there's always such a greater truth now isn't there? I guess you'll be in shock when you find out that SC is a normal game under development.

    Is that what you got from it?  For the record, the "truth" I was implying was NOT "The game Star Citizen is a fraud" or any variant thereof (such as "Star Citizen is not in development").  It's something much more simple like "They're running out of money." of which the consequences will become apparent soon enough. (Although I suppose the train might get prematurely wrecked by other things first)
    Yeah it's been out of money every year for years now. 
  • sgelsgel Member EpicPosts: 2,197
    edited January 2018
    Orinori said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    Again, if you want me to do things the way I work, you'd have to actually pay me for it.

    But that's fine.  You can keep supporting Star Citizen.  At this point I'm more confident than ever that the truth will come out soon enough anyways.  And that's what really matters.
    Ahhh there's always such a greater truth now isn't there? I guess you'll be in shock when you find out that SC is a normal game under development.

    Is that what you got from it?  For the record, the "truth" I was implying was NOT "The game Star Citizen is a fraud" or any variant thereof (such as "Star Citizen is not in development").  It's something much more simple like "They're running out of money." of which the consequences will become apparent soon enough. (Although I suppose the train might get prematurely wrecked by other things first)
    Yeah it's been out of money every year for years now. 
    Which is why they continue with the sales and concept sales and limited edition tanks and limited print runs of amazing ships.

    Your buddy Max explained it a few posts up with a bit less sarcasm.

    ..Cake..

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    edited January 2018
    sgel said:
    Orinori said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    Again, if you want me to do things the way I work, you'd have to actually pay me for it.

    But that's fine.  You can keep supporting Star Citizen.  At this point I'm more confident than ever that the truth will come out soon enough anyways.  And that's what really matters.
    Ahhh there's always such a greater truth now isn't there? I guess you'll be in shock when you find out that SC is a normal game under development.

    Is that what you got from it?  For the record, the "truth" I was implying was NOT "The game Star Citizen is a fraud" or any variant thereof (such as "Star Citizen is not in development").  It's something much more simple like "They're running out of money." of which the consequences will become apparent soon enough. (Although I suppose the train might get prematurely wrecked by other things first)
    Yeah it's been out of money every year for years now. 
    Which is why they continue with the sales and concept sales and limited edition tanks and limited print runs of amazing ships.

    Your buddy Max explained it a few posts up with a bit less sarcasm.

    Yea, like I said earlier, the fact that they resorted to selling tanks (tanks!) and land so early is a clear enough sign already even without the financials.  If business as usual was good enough, then more ship sales would have been good enough without having to deal with all the technical debt that pre-purchased land and new-tank-mechanic sales would bring.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,299
    Orinori said:
    Yeah it's been out of money every year for years now. 
    90 days ! TOPS !


    Have fun
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    sgel said:
    Orinori said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    Again, if you want me to do things the way I work, you'd have to actually pay me for it.

    But that's fine.  You can keep supporting Star Citizen.  At this point I'm more confident than ever that the truth will come out soon enough anyways.  And that's what really matters.
    Ahhh there's always such a greater truth now isn't there? I guess you'll be in shock when you find out that SC is a normal game under development.

    Is that what you got from it?  For the record, the "truth" I was implying was NOT "The game Star Citizen is a fraud" or any variant thereof (such as "Star Citizen is not in development").  It's something much more simple like "They're running out of money." of which the consequences will become apparent soon enough. (Although I suppose the train might get prematurely wrecked by other things first)
    Yeah it's been out of money every year for years now. 
    Which is why they continue with the sales and concept sales and limited edition tanks and limited print runs of amazing ships.

    Your buddy Max explained it a few posts up with a bit less sarcasm.
    What a weird way to run a project. 
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018
    Tiamat64 said:
    sgel said:
    Orinori said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Tiamat64 said:
    Again, if you want me to do things the way I work, you'd have to actually pay me for it.

    But that's fine.  You can keep supporting Star Citizen.  At this point I'm more confident than ever that the truth will come out soon enough anyways.  And that's what really matters.
    Ahhh there's always such a greater truth now isn't there? I guess you'll be in shock when you find out that SC is a normal game under development.

    Is that what you got from it?  For the record, the "truth" I was implying was NOT "The game Star Citizen is a fraud" or any variant thereof (such as "Star Citizen is not in development").  It's something much more simple like "They're running out of money." of which the consequences will become apparent soon enough. (Although I suppose the train might get prematurely wrecked by other things first)
    Yeah it's been out of money every year for years now. 
    Which is why they continue with the sales and concept sales and limited edition tanks and limited print runs of amazing ships.

    Your buddy Max explained it a few posts up with a bit less sarcasm.

    Yea, like I said earlier, the fact that they resorted to selling tanks (tanks!) and land so early is a clear enough sign already even without the financials.  If business as usual was good enough, then more ship sales would have been good enough without having to deal with all the technical debt that pre-purchased land and new-tank-mechanic sales would bring.
    Selling more stuff is always one of the top signs of going bankrupt. 
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    Ouch...




    ScotchUp
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,299
    Ouch...

    Should i know this magazine ?


    Have fun
    EponyxDamor
  • 03cobradude03cobradude Member UncommonPosts: 47
    edited January 2018
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed, with two iterations thrown in the trash can and restart again moments. People always love doom and gloom its why we have a 24 hours news cycle of just shit, trash, fear and terror. 3.0 for me confirmed that they actually have a product that its getting better with each patch. Could things go up in flames. Lets say they have 400 people making 70k a year which is 28,000,000 and at that rate they would run out of cash in 6.25 years. Granted that they didn't have a ton of people working on it until the past two years and before that most of it was outsourced (which costs less in the long term) then they still have money left over. I just don't dwell on this shit like some people like to do. It will get done when it gets done, and if that's to long for you, then get a refund.
    Erillion
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Member RarePosts: 3,476
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed, with two iterations thrown in the trash can and restart again moments. People always love doom and gloom its why we have a 24 hours news cycle of just shit, trash, fear and terror. 3.0 for me confirmed that they actually have a product that its getting better with each patch. Could things go up in flames. Lets say they have 400 people making 70k a year which is 28,000,000 and at that rate they would run out of cash in 6.25 years. Granted that they didn't have a ton of people working on it until the past two years and before that most of it was outsourced (which costs less in the long term) then they still have money left over. I just don't dwell on this shit like some people like to do. It will get done when it gets done, and if that's to long for you, then get a refund.

    Game is taking to long and costing too much.
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
                                            MAGA
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,772
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed, with two iterations thrown in the trash can and restart again moments. People always love doom and gloom its why we have a 24 hours news cycle of just shit, trash, fear and terror. 3.0 for me confirmed that they actually have a product that its getting better with each patch. Could things go up in flames. Lets say they have 400 people making 70k a year which is 28,000,000 and at that rate they would run out of cash in 6.25 years. Granted that they didn't have a ton of people working on it until the past two years and before that most of it was outsourced (which costs less in the long term) then they still have money left over. I just don't dwell on this shit like some people like to do. It will get done when it gets done, and if that's to long for you, then get a refund.
    I think ESO is a good example in a way. I think it was also their first MMO and that was their struggle to get that game right, and they didn't achieve that by release, I think only after this last expansion ESO finally caught up to its potential. That was for pretty much a normal MMO, without the wild go at ambitious new ideas and so, and without a SP campaign game weighting over the MMO dev.

    That's why for me and for most backers I know this is no boogie man, while for some 5 years in dev is a totally unacceptable timeframe for a game like this.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed, with two iterations thrown in the trash can and restart again moments. People always love doom and gloom its why we have a 24 hours news cycle of just shit, trash, fear and terror. 3.0 for me confirmed that they actually have a product that its getting better with each patch. Could things go up in flames. Lets say they have 400 people making 70k a year which is 28,000,000 and at that rate they would run out of cash in 6.25 years. Granted that they didn't have a ton of people working on it until the past two years and before that most of it was outsourced (which costs less in the long term) then they still have money left over. I just don't dwell on this shit like some people like to do. It will get done when it gets done, and if that's to long for you, then get a refund.
    Probably left out health care, buildings rental expenses, taxes, travel expenses, maybe even legal expenses.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    MaxBacon said:
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed, with two iterations thrown in the trash can and restart again moments. People always love doom and gloom its why we have a 24 hours news cycle of just shit, trash, fear and terror. 3.0 for me confirmed that they actually have a product that its getting better with each patch. Could things go up in flames. Lets say they have 400 people making 70k a year which is 28,000,000 and at that rate they would run out of cash in 6.25 years. Granted that they didn't have a ton of people working on it until the past two years and before that most of it was outsourced (which costs less in the long term) then they still have money left over. I just don't dwell on this shit like some people like to do. It will get done when it gets done, and if that's to long for you, then get a refund.
    I think ESO is a good example in a way. I think it was also their first MMO and that was their struggle to get that game right, and they didn't achieve that by release, I think only after this last expansion ESO finally caught up to its potential. That was for pretty much a normal MMO, without the wild go at ambitious new ideas and so, and without a SP campaign game weighting over the MMO dev.

    That's why for me and for most backers I know this is no boogie man, while for some 5 years in dev is a totally unacceptable timeframe for a game like this.
    ESO was a hot mess at launch.  Crash to desktop every few mins.  long loading screens, Bots everywhere, exploits everywhere, major problems with phasing, it got so bad they had to do a rollback.  After my 30 days I Ieft it alone for 6 months until they started getting it together.  It did take a few years to get it into it's current state.  The alpha, beta, and launch were bugged.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,772
    edited January 2018
    ESO was a hot mess at launch.  Crash to desktop every few mins.  long loading screens, Bots everywhere, exploits everywhere, major problems with phasing, it got so bad they had to do a rollback.  After my 30 days I Ieft it alone for 6 months until they started getting it together.  It did take a few years to get it into it's current state.  The alpha, beta, and launch were bugged.
    Yeah it really took quite the time for them to get ESO sorted, this is why I don't get this obsession with SC release date topic, SC is going through the "hot mess" phase now during alpha, when this gets to beta and all, it potentially will go smoother than ESO at launch as a fully released game.
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed,
    So far, Star Citizen has been in development for 5 years, with 3.0 as the current culmination of that.  The 2018 Star Citizen's official roadmap is basically some bug fixes, optimizations, and some very basic functionalities of the crafting systems.  At this current rate, it'd be a flippin' MIRACLE if Star Citizen was in any decent shape for release by 7 years.

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    ESO was a hot mess at launch.  Crash to desktop every few mins.  long loading screens, Bots everywhere, exploits everywhere, major problems with phasing, it got so bad they had to do a rollback.  After my 30 days I Ieft it alone for 6 months until they started getting it together.  It did take a few years to get it into it's current state.  The alpha, beta, and launch were bugged.
    Yeah it really took quite the time for them to get ESO sorted, this is why I don't get this obsession with SC release date topic, SC is going through the "hot mess" phase now during alpha, when this gets to beta and all, it potentially will go smoother than ESO at launch as a fully released game.
    Lol oh Max I do love your optimism 
    MaxBacon
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,772
    edited January 2018
    Kefo said:
    Lol oh Max I do love your optimism 
    Functions better today than several games I played when they released.

    Even for you that have to do the negative spin on all things would agree that by the time SC reaches beta, what doesn't show to be near at all, depending on how many updates will be released until then, that the game will have faced more bug-fixing, polish and optimization to one extent that we wouldn't find one launch like ESO with the game crashing every few minutes as mentioned.

    Example: On a normal game with internal testing that releases we usually hear the drama about exploits and hacks rampaging through the game, on a game that has been in early access for long previous to its release they tend to have already faced and mitigated that problem by release.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    Lol oh Max I do love your optimism 
    Functions better today than several games I played when they released.

    Even for you that have to do the negative spin on all things would agree that by the time SC reaches beta, what doesn't show to be near at all, depending on how many updates will be released until then, that the game will have faced more bug-fixing, polish and optimization to one extent that we wouldn't find one launch like ESO with the game crashing every few minutes as mentioned.

    Example: On a normal game with internal testing that releases we usually hear the drama about exploits and hacks rampaging through the game, on a game that has been in early access for long previous to its release they tend to have already faced and mitigated that problem by release.
    I don’t put a negative spin, I point out the bullshit. And I seriously doubt it’s going to be a smooth experience if it ever hits a release version. Expect bugs, and some crashes
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Elsabolts said:
    Do people like not get how long it takes for an average MMO to be made, and I'm not even talking ground breaking, just normal run of the mill theme park? You know ESO took 7 years to developed, with two iterations thrown in the trash can and restart again moments. People always love doom and gloom its why we have a 24 hours news cycle of just shit, trash, fear and terror. 3.0 for me confirmed that they actually have a product that its getting better with each patch. Could things go up in flames. Lets say they have 400 people making 70k a year which is 28,000,000 and at that rate they would run out of cash in 6.25 years. Granted that they didn't have a ton of people working on it until the past two years and before that most of it was outsourced (which costs less in the long term) then they still have money left over. I just don't dwell on this shit like some people like to do. It will get done when it gets done, and if that's to long for you, then get a refund.

    Game is taking to long and costing too much.
    The game is "hapening" so on that score its not taking to long. It may be to long for you to want to play it but that is different.

    The more general question "games takes X to develop" is haevily influenced by money. Simplistically the more people working on something the quicker it gets done (above a certain point you get diminishing returns).

    In the case of a crowdfunded game to hire people you need backers; to get backers you need to be able to showcase something. Chicken and egg problem. Much easier if you can persuade Activision Blizzard to commit a few hundred million dollars upfront - enabling Bungie to set about increasing the team size to over 450 people. Or persuade NCSoft to buy your company (Carbine). Or EA (Bioware).

    Even for big companies though such investments can be significant. Not a luxury crowdfunded games / companies have.

    So you get a range of timescales from Destiny to Wildstar to Darkfall.


    As for it costing too much though on what basis? We don't actually know what has been spent - only what money has been pledged (which some people mistake for expenditure). There are games though that have cost more than what has been raised but ... so what?

    When you last bought a new cpu or a phone did you stop and think how much had been spent on development?

    At the end of the day what matters is how much does the game (or any product) cost and does that price represent "value" - for you since value is subjective. With a crowd funded project there is also a concern that not enough money might be raised leading to e.g. the issue that SotA has. And something that SC doesn't have since a lot of backers paying a relatively modest amount results in a lot of money being raised. Some will have paid more yes but the minimum pledge isn't that high; whether that represent value or not as I said is subjective.
    laserit
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,772
    edited January 2018
    Kefo said:
    I don’t put a negative spin, I point out the bullshit. And I seriously doubt it’s going to be a smooth experience if it ever hits a release version. Expect bugs, and some crashes
    hehehe :) 

    But anyway, bugs and crashes and some exploits it's obvious. But what I was referring to it's the impact that we see games that do have those long early access do have a smoother transition while the new games that do come directly from internal testing, facing the biggest problems with stability, performance, and exploitation all at once.

    It is a logical thing because the game with the longer testing would have already faced those issues during testing, so the issues get brought up and mitigated before release.

    In SC exploits are already a discussion and devs already discuss anti-cheating, mitigating common exploits, etc... Same with Griefing already taking its toll on their design of things.
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,410
    edited January 2018
    Erillion said:
    Tiamat64 said:

    Yea.  As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm also an accountant (certified, too.  That's not easy to get).  Those financials imply a bad situation despite what the layman non-accountant's view of it is, although from this thread Chris's shell game with all those companies clearly did its job in tricking them, at least.

    But again, at this point, why should I literally do my job for FREE?  We accountants don't come cheap, and apparently for good reason considering the ideas and views these non-accountants got from these financials.  So like, whatever.

    I will clarify this though.  When I said to Orinori, "Seriously, you need to give them more money", I MEANT IT.

    SERIOUSLY.

    You and the rest of the backers need to give them more money!

    But you keep on thinking I'm only saying that because I'm sarcastically saying "You're the enemy.".  I'm NOT.

    THEY. NEED. YOUR MONEY.


    (although really, the tank and land sales should have been a more than obvious enough indication of that)
    So ... you base this - your professional recommendation - on the limited information available?

    A single report from one of a dozen linked companies, with Foundry 42 UK not even being the "central" company ?
    Without inside knowledge about the companies involved and the way they internally transfer money ?
    Without knowledge about their schemes for minimizing tax and currency conversion fees ? Without knowledge about their state-subsidised facilitations?


    Have fun
    Folks use this data because it's the only easily available info on the Star Citizen panoply of holdings.   All other info has to be taken on CIG's good faith.  Which, given their many, many previous pratfalls, should be held in some question.

    If the finances are as well handled as the release date predictions......
    ScotchUp

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • penandpaperpenandpaper Member UncommonPosts: 174
    Kefo said:
    Orinori said:
    Kefo said:
    Orinori said:
    Reigning him in was always for the benefit of the investors in order to try to achieve maximum profit in cheapest turn around possible. Reigning in was never and will NEVER be for the benefit of providing the fans of the game a more awesome experience. 



    No reigning him in was for the benefit of the gamers. Chris Roberts is a thinker and a dreamer which is a great combo when it comes to coming up with new ideas but he needs someone to curb the ambition, which like I said he has admitted to.

    When someone is standing over him telling him to stay on task then you get games like wing commander. When he is allowed to run his own game studio then you get ideas that make the studio produce nothing before they realize oh shit we are out of money because we wasted time trying to perfect everything instead of focusing on a few elements and making them shine Or if he’s allowed to direct his own movie then you get crap like the wing commander movie where he was again trying for too much with not enough time and money.

    Last time Microsoft bailed his studio out and saved the games he started by cutting out the dreams and paring things down to reality. This time it seems backers are taking the place of Microsoft but unfortunately they can’t remove him from power like MS did
    This is only true when supported by investors who are looking to maximize profit and demanding timelines be kept regardless of impact to potential of the game and the user experience. Often the result of this due to how almost impossible it can be to project the workload accurately, the games original vision must be compromised and gamers are left with a half finished product with corners cut all over the place in order to satisfy investors who refuse to invest more and are only concerned with their return. This idea that gamers should be 'thankful' for getting some half finished potential in order to satisfy investor profit is pathetic. 

    With Star Citizen it is the backers who decide if the project continues, suggesting otherwise is ignoring reality. If backers are happy with development, then Star Citizen continues momentum to maximum potential. All you are really showing here is your own limited ability to envision and accept successful innovation and willfully supporting investor greed over end user experience.

    What is it you are really condemning Chris Roberts for here? An unwillingness to compromise on quality? Well now he has no need.

    p.s I actually loved the Wing Commander movie and have seen it multiple times. I am an actual Sci Fi fan :)



    I’m not sure if you read what I write but I’ve told you before and his is rooted in facts but Chris Roberts isn’t the type you give free reign to. He will continue to dream instead of focusing on building the game first. This would be why Digital Anvil tanked and had to be bought out by Microsoft, they put CR as a “creative consultant” and then they spent multiple years and millions of dollars trying to fix the mess that he created. In this case, yes, gamers should be thankful for a half finished product because without those evil suits games like freelancer would never had seen the light of day. Maybe even wing commander wouldn’t have been made if the evil suits weren’t there to make sure CR didn’t go crazy.

    Ive never suggested otherwise that backers aren’t the ones supporting SC but at some point most of the backers are going to get tired of waiting and broken promises and missed deadlines and the money will slow to a trickle. If they haven’t released the mvp or better by then then the whales alone won’t be able to keep the project propped up.

    You know nothing about me and what I can envision. I just try not to let companies pull blinders over my eyes with hype. I’m not always successful but I do my best. The only greed being shown here is CIG’s and the constant asking for more money.

    Im condemning CR for being a piss poor boss and stepping on his managers toes instead of letting them do what he hired them to do and in the end wasting time and money.

    Thats great you’ve seen the movie multiple times and loved it still doesn’t change the fact it was a commercial flop and lost millions
    I am not so sure of the bolded lines.  I think it will be yet another theme: defend, justify, rationalize, and back to defend.  It will be twenty years before anyone says, "Damn, I was duped!"
  • ArillixArillix Member UncommonPosts: 88
    @Kefo,

    Really, again with the demonizing of Chris, thought you said you don't demonize.

    Prior to founding Ascendant, Roberts was Chairman and CEO of Digital Anvil (DA), the game development and digital effects company he founded in 1996 with funding from Microsoft and Advanced Micro Devices. Roberts guided DA's growth to annual revenues of $14 million, prior to the release of many of its games in development. His innovations changed the gaming industry. His games were the first to perfect the use of 35mm film as narrative in interactive game titles, and DA became the first interactive entertainment company to produce a game title, Wing Commander, into a $25 million feature film, directed and produced by Roberts. The film starred Freddie Prinze, Jr. (I Know What You Did Last Summer), Saffron Burrows (Deep Blue Sea) and Matthew Lillard (Scooby Doo).

    DA and the video game titles it created won numerous gaming awards and the company became a digital effects powerhouse, creating all of the digital effects for the Wing Commander movie and contributing to the digital effects for several other films, including Spy Kids. In December of 2000, Roberts sold DA to Microsoft. DA remains a successful subsidiary of Microsoft and content provider for the XBox.

    Or are you saying that the IMDb bio is a lie?
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0730932/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    Arillix said:
    @Kefo,

    Really, again with the demonizing of Chris, thought you said you don't demonize.


    You have a strange definition of the word "Demonize".
    ScotchUp
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