Why are bigger developers scared to make an Old School MMO.

VicusEQ

Not a rant.  Just don't understand it fully.  EQ/UO/CoX/DAOC/SWG/ect  All these games where the foundation of their MMO genres but since their release no one has really made a successor to any of them.  The only real attempt have been by very little known companies that when they released them had very little resources for the game to be given any real shot.  I feel like its just been bad luck on many parts of these games to have true successors (meaning basis of the game is the same just updated graphics and expanded mechanics to what was already tried and true).  Also I feel the main reason is the greed for cash has made developers rush games or add things to the game that end up setting up their failure.

I do know many people enjoy some of the games out there today but the people who found the above games amazing before just general life expectancy ran out on them have not had a real game to play in a long time. 

No game like EQ has ever come out again.  Closes thing was vanguard.  Vanguard had a ton of players at the start but then they realized the game was not complete.  Everyone left.  I remember killing a level 45 mob and it did not drop loot.  Or fighting a caster NPC where it was just punching me because it's spells weren't even put into the game yet.  No one has touched a game like it since.  Pantheon has a chance to be like EQ but it's being funded and developed by someone who not many trust anymore, so that will ward off many in the mean time.  It's also obvious by the Pay 1000$ to beta test that the guy is still only out for money. His team has always been the real reason the games have done well.  Soon as Pantheon hits a hard patch mark my words that dude is going to bail on his team and us.

UO.  Legends of Aria is the closes thing I can remember to it but its not the same and right now the funding is very limited for LoA.  Will be released and be a niche game. It's funny because the real game that was a true successor to this was Darkfall.  Darkfall was created by a guy who could inspire the room but in truth had very limited experience and was only able to deliver on like 20% of his promise.  The game was also broken.  But what I find funny is that the game was wanted SO badly by old school MMO players (and new) that even with the bad shape of the game, people tried to keep it alive in hopes that it was fixed.  The money grab was so good for Adventurine that they remade it in hopes of grabbing a few more dollars.  Now that the games name is in the mud, there are still two developers who loved the game that much that are trying to revive it.  Sadly it will just be a niche again.  This will stray developers and funders away from making something like it in the future.

City of Heroes/Villains.  One of the best concept games ever.  I loved everything about this game except two things.  The publisher who really didnt care about the game and the fact that end game was never handled correctly.  The games leveling system was one of the best experiences I've ever had.  But the endgame was a mess.  Not allowing players to obtain real loot or ways to progress your character from endzones made this an endless loop of playing alts.  All any developer has to do is make new CoX with an actual endgame.  DC online was the best attempt to a game like this but it was nothing like CoX.  The focus on PVP completely ruined it for many people.  I really hope someone makes a real CoX succesor.  Ship of Heroes and Valiance online will not be the ones.  I am going to support and play them because maybe it will show big developers its worth investing in but these games will be low population games with very slow support because the teams are so small. I will also play because for some stupid reason there are just NO superhero mmo's out there.  How is this even possible.  Marvel has put superheroes on the map as a billion dollar industry and the best we have is Champs online and DC online.  Can't wrap my mind around that.

DAOC online.  Realm vs realm.  Still the king.  Every game that has tried to have it just gives up. Its funny.  WVW GW2, nothing like it.  Rift with their two alliances, given up and now everyone is in harmony.  Wildstar, samething.  ESO.  Aion had it almost perfect with the Abyss but then they ruined it.  Going F2P (money grab) just destroyed that game. It did allow the game to last longer but as far as mechanics/gameplay it ruined it. Really Hoping Aion 6.0 with their server restart will atleast keep me at peace for sometime but doubting it.  

SWG.  Pure money destroyed this game.  Taking the game and turing it into EQ2/WoW with lightsabers.  We all know this story.  Everygame that has tried to take parts from this game has been developed by someone who has tried to do it on their own with no team.  

My point is there is a crowd out there of players that really want an old feeling game with just updated graphics and maybe a few new little features.  We just want a place to play where we can trust the people making the game.  Ashes of creation gives me some hope but overall its not the actual type of game I want, but I loved the developers so far and hoping they can deliver something I will enjoy.  I am sadly doubtful because I like the developers for GW2 and there game is very nice but just could never get me into it.  I cant find a character I love ...kinda the can do everything but doesnt feel special feeling.  Also no gear/classic trinty isnt for me.  World/graphics/story are great but cant believe in the character.

How many others feel this way.  It has just been a really long time since a MMO I grew up with and loved has come in some type of form I could dive into again.  One that is being developed by a team that isn't starting off with no history or a budget that will never give them a real shot. Or one that isn't just trying to make a WoW clonse. I played WoW hardcore for awhile but it is like watching a Friday the 13th Jason movie now.  Same thing every time.  I've played some of the restarts or new progression servers and had a blast but then the community leaves because the nostalgia wears off.  We need something new.  Something new by a western developer or an Eastern Developer that will stop making everything F2P with cash shop that is out of control.  All of the new games that have come out of the east have been looking amazing "Revelation online, Tera, Archeage ect" but then you realize when you play it that there is a huge disconnect between East and West.  

I can keep going ...long history with MMO's but man the old days are so long ago.  But will finish with this.  I am 100% confident that if you just took the basis for one of the old classics and kept the core mechanics the same and updated the graphics/endgame it would be very successful.  How do I know?  Look at FFXIV.  Big name.  Released it in a rush.  Was horrible.  Re-Released it to be a WoW clone.  They changed some minor things but it really is a WoW clone for gameplay.  Endgame raiding.  Quest hubs.  Instant PvP.  Flying Mounts.  LFR.  The combat system is just a shell of WoWs combat system and it still doesnt matter.  People were wanting something that was "like" wow but wasn't WoW.  That is all FFXIV needed.  Big name that was like WoW = 10 million players.  I want something that is like UO/EQ/DAOC/COX/Ect.  So make it and take my money, pls!

Forgrimm

There's no money in it. And the development time and budget required for an MMORPG is enormous.

Zeppel80

It's also been a long time since horse drawn carriages were made, and they used to be really popular.  My point is that you're ignoring evolution, gaming evolves just like anything else.  There may be a niche group of people that want an old school game, but, IMO, it's rather small.

You cite FFXIV, why is it so popular?  Why is ESO so popular?  They're popular because they give people what they want, and that's not old school game play.

I played WoW before BC came out.  I quit because the grind was boring.  What I remember most from those days is hours long dungeons and also the difficulty of finding a group; that kind of thing is the last thing I want these days.

But, fear not.  Old school WoW is coming, if that's the kind of thing you like.  There's also classic RuneScape.  Heck, go really old school, there's still some MUDs active.

VicusEQ

Forgrimm said:

There's no money in it. And the development time and budget required for an MMORPG is enormous.

How would this be true if it hasn't been tried?  Even EQ2 which was NOTHING like EQ1 has been financially successful just off the name itself.  But it really hasn't been tried.  Name a AAA game release that used the cores of the game above? I mean Everquest next just using it's name had enough hype for it that people were flocking to it.  Marvel Universe was one of the top wanted games on MMORPG.com as soon as an announcement was made it was being thought of.  I feel WoW's success has just made it so that every game released today must have multiple aspects that are pulled from wow for funding to be approved for big developers.  

The games I listed above had none or very little of the mehanics/gameplay that is in wow.  Really wish developers were able to convince the people turning the lights on that there is a need for something with that old school feel.  Retro is a thing for a reason.

Wizardry

They make the same money making crap.Even FFXIV a very costly game imo did nothing for Square,if they invested 1/4 of that money into FFXI they would have the same player base.Blizzard keeps making cheap low end games because people keep buying them and making them loads of money,why would they need to change?

TESO is an old school IP,known ip's remain popular,look at Star Wars ,it is an older IP than many forum users are old.

Just look at Steam,every single new game they post on the main advertising page gets scooped up and it really helps when big name streamers like Lirik are broadcasting those games,it really boosts sales.

So right now devs have all the pieces in place to make loads of money without spending lots of money or time, a perfect sauce for developers,crappy for gamer's but hey so many gamer's seem to have low standards so all that crap is keeping both sides happy.

VicusEQ

Zeppel80 said:

It's also been a long time since horse drawn carriages were made, and they used to be really popular.  My point is that you're ignoring evolution, gaming evolves just like anything else.  There may be a niche group of people that want an old school game, but, IMO, it's rather small.

You cite FFXIV, why is it so popular?  Why is ESO so popular?  They're popular because they give people what they want, and that's not old school game play.

I played WoW before BC came out.  I quit because the grind was boring.  What I remember most from those days is hours long dungeons and also the difficulty of finding a group; that kind of thing is the last thing I want these days.

But, fear not.  Old school WoW is coming, if that's the kind of thing you like.  There's also classic RuneScape.  Heck, go really old school, there's still some MUDs active.

Actually, WoW is old school gameplay.  WoW is one of the originals in my opinion also.  The gameplay in it is Old school to me...but because it was so successful that it turned into the ONLY gameplay.  I think WoW is not considered Hardcore (though it does take a lot to be a hardcore raider in that game pushing top 100) but I would put it as the last of the old school gameplay.  It's like WoW came out and every other successful game was considered not worthy after that.  Classic WoW is a few years to late for me.  They missed that boat but people are going to flock to it becuase...once again THEY WANT THAT OLD FEELING.  So take a hint devs, gives us that old feeling that isnt just a progression server or game restart.  Give us a new world.  I am not saying don't evolve the game, add new stuff, but keep the core of the game something similar to what we have been missing from our past.

some-clueless-guy

Bigger developers become big by producing what is most profitable. Sometimes profitability coincides with quality, but usually that's not the case.

It would like wondering why some wealthy old men is also a cheap bastard: he probably got rich because he saved every single cent.

VengeSunsoar

Why would a game developer be scared about making the most expensive type of game with the most continued overhead after launch with the shakiest return on investment for the whiniest group of gamers when they can make a game that makes as much money for cheaper costs lasts just as long and has a much larger group of players and those players are often less less whiny?

I'm not sure. I'll have to think about it.

AAAMEOW

I thought all those old games only cost a few million to make.  Think you are expecting too much.  You'll most likely only see 10 million to 20 million budget for a remake of those old games.

Flyte27

From what I can see it's up to the players and their willingness to fund these types of games at this point.  There are too many MMOs and big companies know what makes the most money.  They have no interest in the niche products that will be impossible to promote in a sea of video games.  That leaves it up to crowd-funded projects like Pantheon RIse of the Fallen.

VicusEQ

Vinterkrig said:

VicusEQ said:

Actually, WoW is old school gameplay.  WoW is one of the originals in my opinion also.  The gameplay in it is Old school to me...but because it was so successful that it turned into the ONLY gameplay.  I think WoW is not considered Hardcore (though it does take a lot to be a hardcore raider in that game pushing top 100) but I would put it as the last of the old school gameplay.  It's like WoW came out and every other successful game was considered not worthy after that.  Classic WoW is a few years to late for me.  They missed that boat but people are going to flock to it becuase...once again THEY WANT THAT OLD FEELING.  So take a hint devs, gives us that old feeling that isnt just a progression server or game restart.  Give us a new world.  I am not saying don't evolve the game, add new stuff, but keep the core of the game something similar to what we have been missing from our past.

Your opinion is wrong...WOW is not old school gameplay, if anything it's the birth of all the watered down gameplay we have in all of the new games. 

You may not agree with my opinion but by definition an opinion can't be wrong as I didn't state it as facts.  But WoW was the first to put it all together.  They took what was considered successful from the games out there and added some of their own game play.  It was the first full package.  I do not enjoy the game play but it WAS the first of it's kind.  Hence why they were so successful.  They took a tried and true franchise (Warcraft) and put together many things people loved about MMO's.  

That is all I want from current developers.  Take a tried and true game and put some new flavor on it, not completely change the recipe.

Albatroes

Simple answer? They want a lot of money. Reality is an old school mmorpg wont pull in as much money as something casual. The average gamer in general is said to be in their 30s, so you have to factor in lifestyle/responsibilities/etc compared to 10+ years ago when a large population of the old school player base was in their teens. That generation doesn't have the time for the most part and the newer generation has been coddled with getting rewards by just logging into a game now that they dont see the point in things being 'slow.' I mean, most of my thinking in wow's world scaling is that it wont generally be well received mainly because it will take 2-3 times longer just to reach the same pointless result which is spending most of your time playing a patch. Of course Blizzard probably is extending the time frame on purpose because Activision wants sales on boosts to increase (which is also probably why they removed the xp boost potions during the winter veil event), but overall its not going to 'save' the game if the end result remains the same.

SEANMCAD

two fold.

1. they know nostaglia often burns extremely fast when one is actually exposed to it.

2. they want to focus on the easy to manipulate players

Panther2103

Because old school MMO's are that. Old school. The newer MMO players don't want the older experience and if they do it's a small fraction that wants it. While some indie devs don't mind breaking even in cost or hoping to make a small increase, most people are looking to make money. I don't blame them either. Most companies, even the companies with the best intentions are looking to make money, they need to stay afloat. If an idea isn't guaranteed to work, then they can't drop years of time and a lot of money in hopes that they make something. If a big publisher took a chance on it, and it worked, and it brought in millions of players and showed it had some form of hope to work after launch, then I'm sure we would see a lot more oldschool games coming out. Unfortunately until then whatever idea is currently working is the ideas we will see people taking chances on.

VicusEQ

VengeSunsoar said:

Why would a game developer be scared about making the most expensive type of game with the most continued overhead after launch with the shakiest return on investment for the whiniest group of gamers when they can make a game that makes as much money for cheaper costs lasts just as long and has a much larger group of players and those players are often less less whiny?

I'm not sure. I'll have to think about it.

Hmm.  Well I believe in my opinion that none of the above has to be true.  Being a triple A company doesn't mean you have to dish out 200mil to make a game. But yes I believe I am tired of the kickstarter 2 million funding for games.  The game doesnt have to be that expensive.  WoW has proven that graphics are only so/so needed for fun gameplay.  As for the Whiniest group of gamers that is in itself not possible.  Since more people play WoW style games, sheer numbers would make them the whiniest, but I will just defend all gamers by saying when you have gone many many years without a game that fills your niche, you would become more vocal about it.  I mean that is just basic human nature.  Teachers get crapped on yearly and finally after they have had enough they go on strike.  Do you consider them whiny?

But my overall point is ...yes if there was a ton of games out there that were based on Old School gameplay then I would say yes, it's risky but there aren't any.  If someone took their time and made a complete game that focused on those EQ/UO/SWG glory days it would be financially successful.  But thats my opinion.  

VengeSunsoar

Often yes and my dad and both in-laws actually were teachers. They don't work longer hours then most other professionals, they get paid an equivalent years worth of work for 9 months of work, they get summers off and they have benefits that are beyond most other companies.

I didn't say 200 million. Wow cost what 50 million? A remake of EQ daoc swg... using today's graphics and engines I imagine would cost that much or more. That is still more than most other games. Wow players may have more numbers but imo percentagewise there are more whiny old school players per capita.

Costs alone combined with reduced player base and history has shown a riskier return for those costs scare off devs. Why would they when it is easier to make something else that appeals to a larger group and had a much Lower risk with a higher roi.

Given the above where are their resources best utilized.

BananaSoup

"Why are bigger developers scared to make an Old School MMO"?

Because only a few needs that, among that few many are just nostalgic and nostaligic isn't a synonime of quality. Only several no-lifers (they call themselves "hardcore" to feel somewhat elitist and prestigeous when in reality it's the other way around) want such games to happen and making an AAA classic MMO for a thousand of players is very hard task to do.

AAAMEOW

Arn't deveoper making it right now?  People are saying Pantheon online or camelot unchain are similar to those old game.

BLNX

As others have said, profit. AAA rarely goes off the beaten path, they are better at taking an idea and refining it, which is what the "majority" don't want, just the "fashionistas". :P

But honestly, it seems the things most people want in an old school MMO are not very profitable, so what would be the point for most companies? You'd have to convince a temperamental and niche crowd to spend their money, then keep them happy with subpar profit margins.

VicusEQ

VengeSunsoar said:

Often yes and my dad and both in-laws actually were teachers. They don't work longer hours then most other professionals, they get paid an equivalent years worth of work for 9 months of work, they get summers off and they have benefits that are beyond most other companies.

I didn't say 200 million. Wow cost what 50 million? That is still more than most other games. Wiw players may have more numbers but I'm percentagewise old school players are whinier.

Costs alone combined with rushed return for those costs scare off devs.

Hmm see this is where we disagree again.  Your family seems to have a decent teaching experience.  Probably one of the reasons more then one person in your family is a teacher.  But there are some great cities/states that take care of their teachers.  While others it is not the same experience.  Heck there is a news story right now about how the kids in a Baltimore school have no heat and are going to classrooms with 35 degree temps inside.  The national average wages of a teacher is well below what someone with the same amount of time in a different degree earns.  Many teachers have more then 4 years of college but their salary increases at a much lower rate for each degree they earn.  Can just google it.  But your statement of percerntagewise old school players are just whinier is just pure speculation. 

But I'll change the topic a bit then.  Forget old school gameplay.  Lets just take City of Heroes and superhero MMO's.  I believe the desire for a superhero MMO is at it's all time high and it would be successful if it was just a WoW clone.  Why hasnt anyone put out a World of Superheros MMO.  If the developers are only interested in money this would seem like a no brainer.  There are plenty of comic book companies to buy the rights from.  Top Cow/Image/Ect.  Heck I would play this just because I want a superhero game...even if it wasn't what I exactly wanted (unless it was pure pvp focus).

danwest58

Simple Big developers are Publicly traded companies and their ONLY goal is to make money for the Stock Holders.  There is no money in any Big Company making a game that is for a small but stable market because they will not make large profits off these games for their stockholders.   Why do you think games like Ashes of Creation are being built by privately held companies that are also new companies?   Because they do not need to worried about Stock Holders on the NYSE.   

VengeSunsoar

I can only talk about teachers in Canada. And Canada  they start at about $50,000 a year and they cap out of a $80,000 a year. The average income for a lawyer is $66,000 a year the average income for an accountant is $65,000 a year and they will work far longer hours and involves more schooling than a teacher does.

If that teacher goes on to Advanced degrees or special education requirements they make even more money.

My own background is a physiotherapist. This involves a four-year degree and a two-year master's program after that I still needed other special certificates (part a b Ortho , neuro... ). The average physiotherapist makes $70,000 Works 12 months of the year and 3 weeks off. Getting into management we work longer hours but we get paid more as well.

Teachers at least here are very well paid. But this is a digression. (As you may guess this is a conversation we just will not have at my house

I would like another well done superhero MMO though. Coh cost 7 million to produce in 2004. I imagine it would be more today.

VicusEQ

chambordin said:

you've been given plenty of answers, now tell us why they should

I already have.  Games like vanguard and darkfall had sold over 200,000 copies when they launched (Vanguard 242,000 and Darkfall over 200k Worldwide).  These were games that were sold mostly because of the style of game and ofcourse the Brad's name being so strong from EQ.  BOTH these games were unfinished jokes of a real product that could never recover from their horrible starts.  They did not have a real dev team (vanguard had a better one but was released to early..we all know the story).  If these games had real funding that would allow them to be released as a full product at start it would of been a different story.  Those 200k would rave about the game.  Reviews would of been positive and thats how you go from 200k to 2mil +.  

Going back to FFXIV.  This was a HUGE franchise and the original version of FFXIV sold 630k copies it's first week.  Then their numbers went down to less then 40k players playing because they saw how horrible and broke it was.  They remade it to the WoW clone it is and then it's 10mil strong.

So my answer is that if someone puts out a REAL true sequal or a legit old school style game that has a legit dev team able to keep up with the game, it would be a very profitable game.

AAAMEOW

VicusEQ said:

VengeSunsoar said:

Often yes and my dad and both in-laws actually were teachers. They don't work longer hours then most other professionals, they get paid an equivalent years worth of work for 9 months of work, they get summers off and they have benefits that are beyond most other companies.

I didn't say 200 million. Wow cost what 50 million? That is still more than most other games. Wiw players may have more numbers but I'm percentagewise old school players are whinier.

Costs alone combined with rushed return for those costs scare off devs.

Hmm see this is where we disagree again.  Your family seems to have a decent teaching experience.  Probably one of the reasons more then one person in your family is a teacher.  But there are some great cities/states that take care of their teachers.  While others it is not the same experience.  Heck there is a news story right now about how the kids in a Baltimore school have no heat and are going to classrooms with 35 degree temps inside.  The national average wages of a teacher is well below what someone with the same amount of time in a different degree earns.  Many teachers have more then 4 years of college but their salary increases at a much lower rate for each degree they earn.  Can just google it.  But your statement of percerntagewise old school players are just whinier is just pure speculation. 

But I'll change the topic a bit then.  Forget old school gameplay.  Lets just take City of Heroes and superhero MMO's.  I believe the desire for a superhero MMO is at it's all time high and it would be successful if it was just a WoW clone.  Why hasnt anyone put out a World of Superheros MMO.  If the developers are only interested in money this would seem like a no brainer.  There are plenty of comic book companies to buy the rights from.  Top Cow/Image/Ect.  Heck I would play this just because I want a superhero game...even if it wasn't what I exactly wanted (unless it was pure pvp focus).

There are a few superhero mmorpg, don't think any of them able to rack in the players.  I played 2, can't even remember the name.  Quit after 1 month.

VicusEQ

Torval said:

VicusEQ said:

VengeSunsoar said:

Why would a game developer be scared about making the most expensive type of game with the most continued overhead after launch with the shakiest return on investment for the whiniest group of gamers when they can make a game that makes as much money for cheaper costs lasts just as long and has a much larger group of players and those players are often less less whiny?

I'm not sure. I'll have to think about it.

Hmm.  Well I believe in my opinion that none of the above has to be true.  Being a triple A company doesn't mean you have to dish out 200mil to make a game. But yes I believe I am tired of the kickstarter 2 million funding for games.  The game doesnt have to be that expensive.  WoW has proven that graphics are only so/so needed for fun gameplay.  As for the Whiniest group of gamers that is in itself not possible.  Since more people play WoW style games, sheer numbers would make them the whiniest, but I will just defend all gamers by saying when you have gone many many years without a game that fills your niche, you would become more vocal about it.  I mean that is just basic human nature.  Teachers get crapped on yearly and finally after they have had enough they go on strike.  Do you consider them whiny?

But my overall point is ...yes if there was a ton of games out there that were based on Old School gameplay then I would say yes, it's risky but there aren't any.  If someone took their time and made a complete game that focused on those EQ/UO/SWG glory days it would be financially successful.  But thats my opinion.  

Are you trolling for LOL clicks or are you just that disconnected from reality? It wasn't his opinion. He was stating the status quo, the lay of the landscape if you will.

There are several indie MMO projects trying to do just what you want because they don't agree with AAA publishers and studios that oldschool (pre-WoW mmos - there is a decade of MMOs before WoW) MMOs are dead. We'll have to see if they're right. Then again, with the exception of Star Citizen, they're only dumping a few tens of millions into their games.

As you can see from my thread count that LOL clicks are not what I strive for.  I am also not 10 and into trolling.  Being passionate about a subject in my opinion is never a bad thing as long as you can keep it constructive and based in reality.   

VengeSunsoar

They did and 200000 is a lot but now let's compare those games to say SWtor which had 1 million subscribers within 3 days of launch.

Yes we all know that SWTOR didn't do very well in the long term for the first couple years anyway. And it did cost $200 million to make of which lot of that was in marketing.

Still it sold a million. 

Or how about blade and Soul which one week after it released in the west hit 1 million players in the West

Or Black Desert online which sold 400000 at launch in North America.