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It's time for government regulation...

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Comments

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    People can say what they want about legalities, but if the company isn't making money off of the product any more or it cost too much to go after people then they will likely still be able to use the software (as I pointed out with P1999 and Diablo).  On the flip side World of Warcraft still generates a lot of money which is why they went after illegal classic servers and decided to make their own.  Some companies even legally make their software free for use after it is old and it no longer has much value.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    Numbers 3 and 4 I can actually support - those are good ideas. 

    I feel sorry for the folks that bought Marvel Heroes stuff in early November only to have the plug pulled with no recourse. I wish companies would do more on their own following a shutdown, but in the case of Gazillion, once Disney pulled the plug, there probably was no more money to offer rebates back to customers - they didn't even have enough money to properly take care of their staff. And I imagine Disney didn't have any financial stake in it apart from licensing, so they could care less what Gazillion did to unwind the game (and company).

    There was a project to try to bring old online-based games back online, but for the life of me I can't find the name of it right now. EA is notorious for shutting down servers, and for online-based games, no server = no game. We have just accepted it as a consumer - we don't own the software, just rights to a license which can be changed without input or permission from us. 

    I'm not saying that a company, such as Gazillion, has to be willing and able to fund a server for a defunct game in perpetuum, and I'm also not saying that a company should be forced to just hand over their IP so that another entity (be it another company or just the community at large) could continue to run a server. I don't know what the right answer there is, or that there is even a right answer to be had, but it's an interesting question.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)
    I have. Take a game that you have on Steam and exists on GoG. Try and download it on GoG and play it. You will be told you never purchased the game so you cannot.

    Why?

    Because the agreement you made with Steam only gives you the right to access the game on Steam. Nowhere else. Even if they company had its own launcher you would have to rebuy the game from them and wouldn't be allowed to use your Steam key unless they gave you another key which in turn you couldn't use on Steam.

    I know this because I have moved games from Steam to Paradox and GoG and both involved the companies coming to an agreement and I get a new key to use on GoG or Paradox. Without that process I would have to rebuy a new key and abandon the old Steam key.

    Moving on.
  • LuidenLuiden Member RarePosts: 337
    Ridelynn said:
    Numbers 3 and 4 I can actually support - those are good ideas. 

    I feel sorry for the folks that bought Marvel Heroes stuff in early November only to have the plug pulled with no recourse. I wish companies would do more on their own following a shutdown, but in the case of Gazillion, once Disney pulled the plug, there probably was no more money to offer rebates back to customers - they didn't even have enough money to properly take care of their staff. And I imagine Disney didn't have any financial stake in it apart from licensing, so they could care less what Gazillion did to unwind the game (and company).

    There was a project to try to bring old online-based games back online, but for the life of me I can't find the name of it right now. EA is notorious for shutting down servers, and for online-based games, no server = no game. We have just accepted it as a consumer - we don't own the software, just rights to a license which can be changed without input or permission from us. 

    I'm not saying that a company, such as Gazillion, has to be willing and able to fund a server for a defunct game in perpetuum, and I'm also not saying that a company should be forced to just hand over their IP so that another entity (be it another company or just the community at large) could continue to run a server. I don't know what the right answer there is, or that there is even a right answer to be had, but it's an interesting question.
    That made me think of another example:

    5.  Companies that sell digital items through an online store must maintain a surety bond of x amount to pay back any item purchased previous 12 months from game closure.

    I don't know what that amount is but in the trucking industry it's currently at $75,000.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)
    I have. Take a game that you have on Steam and exists on GoG. Try and download it on GoG and play it. You will be told you never purchased the game so you cannot.

    Why?

    Because the agreement you made with Steam only gives you the right to access the game on Steam. Nowhere else. Even if they company had its own launcher you would have to rebuy the game from them and wouldn't be allowed to use your Steam key unless they gave you another key which in turn you couldn't use on Steam.

    I know this because I have moved games from Steam to Paradox and GoG and both involved the companies coming to an agreement and I get a new key to use on GoG or Paradox. Without that process I would have to rebuy a new key and abandon the old Steam key.

    Moving on.
    I don't know if this still holds true, but I was able to get a free copy of Mass Effect 1 and 2 on Origin after buying it on steam simply by entering the steam code for the game on the origin website in a certain place.  I  could swear I did the same thing for the Witcher 1, 2, and 3.  Either that or I bought it on Good Old Games to support their DRM free concept.  
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)
    I have. Take a game that you have on Steam and exists on GoG. Try and download it on GoG and play it. You will be told you never purchased the game so you cannot.

    Why?

    Because the agreement you made with Steam only gives you the right to access the game on Steam. Nowhere else. Even if they company had its own launcher you would have to rebuy the game from them and wouldn't be allowed to use your Steam key unless they gave you another key which in turn you couldn't use on Steam.

    I know this because I have moved games from Steam to Paradox and GoG and both involved the companies coming to an agreement and I get a new key to use on GoG or Paradox. Without that process I would have to rebuy a new key and abandon the old Steam key.

    Moving on.
    no that is incorrect.

    Steam has to grant you access to the game. if they go down, they have to provide you access to that game. 

    I am nearly positive that is how it is legally, you are mistaken I am almost positive.

    EponyxDamor

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)
    I have. Take a game that you have on Steam and exists on GoG. Try and download it on GoG and play it. You will be told you never purchased the game so you cannot.

    Why?

    Because the agreement you made with Steam only gives you the right to access the game on Steam. Nowhere else. Even if they company had its own launcher you would have to rebuy the game from them and wouldn't be allowed to use your Steam key unless they gave you another key which in turn you couldn't use on Steam.

    I know this because I have moved games from Steam to Paradox and GoG and both involved the companies coming to an agreement and I get a new key to use on GoG or Paradox. Without that process I would have to rebuy a new key and abandon the old Steam key.

    Moving on.
    no that is incorrect.

    Steam has to grant you access to the game. if they go down, they have to provide you access to that game. 

    I am nearly positive that is how it is legally, you are mistaken I am almost positive.

    I am nearly positive.......... I am almost positive.

    Find out before you argue about it then, or continue arguing for the sake of arguing.

    The End.


    EponyxDamor
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    no that is incorrect.

    Steam has to grant you access to the game. if they go down, they have to provide you access to that game. 

    I am nearly positive that is how it is legally, you are mistaken I am almost positive.

    I am nearly positive.......... I am almost positive.

    Find out before you argue about it then, or continue arguing for the sake of arguing.

    The End.


    Just to be clear my understanding are you saying you are 100% totally positive about your position?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • seldinseldin Member UncommonPosts: 196
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)
    I have. Take a game that you have on Steam and exists on GoG. Try and download it on GoG and play it. You will be told you never purchased the game so you cannot.

    Why?

    Because the agreement you made with Steam only gives you the right to access the game on Steam. Nowhere else. Even if they company had its own launcher you would have to rebuy the game from them and wouldn't be allowed to use your Steam key unless they gave you another key which in turn you couldn't use on Steam.

    I know this because I have moved games from Steam to Paradox and GoG and both involved the companies coming to an agreement and I get a new key to use on GoG or Paradox. Without that process I would have to rebuy a new key and abandon the old Steam key.

    Moving on.
    no that is incorrect.

    Steam has to grant you access to the game. if they go down, they have to provide you access to that game. 

    I am nearly positive that is how it is legally, you are mistaken I am almost positive.


    Sadly, some day I bet we will see what happens but until that day we can only speculate.  I would guarantee that the vast majority of gamers will be screwed when this happens.  If nothing else they will use bankruptcy and everyone will get nothing.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    seldin said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Regardless of weather you own them or not they usually end up being worthless and free for all to use after a certain period of time.  I don't see people taking down P1999 or any MMO emulator out there for old games even if they aren't in use anymore and copyrighted by law.  I'm fairly sure I can always backup my Steam single player games and even if Steam shuts down I can still play them as long as I have a backup copy.  I may never theoretically own them and I agree that it's wrong to do that to the consumer.  On the flip side software is so easy to copy and only viable for a short period of time and as such, they can only make money off it for a small period of time.  One only need look at Steam sales and see great games like the Wticher or Mass Effect for a few dollars.  Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 are now a pittance even without a sale reduction in price.
    If Steam closes you lose the right to log in. Their agreement makes you sign over your agreement with the game company to them to manage. They in return give you a right to use the game through their application.

    If they choose to Steam could shut down the app and with no way to start the game offline from Steam I think you are pooched.

    As it says in their EULA. They can stop you from playing any game you purchase and if you try to play it without Steam no can do.

    Look at GoG and Paradox. They are allowing you to move games from Steam to their own software but first there is a legal matter that they have to work through and then give you another key to access the non-steam version.

    Whether Steam would do that, I doubt it. But it is totally within their rights atm to do so.
    actually I think if Steam is shut down Valve is legally libel to have an alternative way to access your game. which might be direct download or mail you a DVD or something similar.

    I am not 100% sure on that but I am pretty sure
    I would look into that if I were you. You may be surprised at what you find and what you signed over to them.
    actually I would inverse that and suggest that its likely you need to look more into it :)
    I have. Take a game that you have on Steam and exists on GoG. Try and download it on GoG and play it. You will be told you never purchased the game so you cannot.

    Why?

    Because the agreement you made with Steam only gives you the right to access the game on Steam. Nowhere else. Even if they company had its own launcher you would have to rebuy the game from them and wouldn't be allowed to use your Steam key unless they gave you another key which in turn you couldn't use on Steam.

    I know this because I have moved games from Steam to Paradox and GoG and both involved the companies coming to an agreement and I get a new key to use on GoG or Paradox. Without that process I would have to rebuy a new key and abandon the old Steam key.

    Moving on.
    no that is incorrect.

    Steam has to grant you access to the game. if they go down, they have to provide you access to that game. 

    I am nearly positive that is how it is legally, you are mistaken I am almost positive.


    Sadly, some day I bet we will see what happens but until that day we can only speculate.  I would guarantee that the vast majority of gamers will be screwed when this happens.  If nothing else they will use bankruptcy and everyone will get nothing.
    I believe they would tell everyone to back up their games to their hard disk.  Then they would either allow offline mode without the restriction of needing to be logged in to activate your games.  No one really knows what would happen.  As I said, even if they didn't remove the restriction of needing to be logged in to activate your games after installation I believe some ingenious person out there would be able to find a way to bypass that and share it with everyone.  It's not like Steam games require a server to play.  It is only a verification system unless the game you are playing through Steam is an MMO.
  • LuidenLuiden Member RarePosts: 337
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/13/16767590/star-citizen-refund

    What happens when you have an industry with no oversight.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Luiden said:
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/13/16767590/star-citizen-refund

    What happens when you have an industry with no oversight.
    you need to understand that what you are advocating is a fascist state. I am not sure people fully understand the implications to basically say 'zero...literally zero free market principles of any kind can work in the entertainment industry' because that means it can not work ANYWHERE.

    which means every single business decision should be regulated by a central authority.

    play that out a bit
    Shaigh

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    I wake up in the morning, i see 59 new posts. I think i know why. I click on thread. My suspicions is confirmed. 

    Cryomatrix
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I wake up in the morning, i see 59 new posts. I think i know why. I click on thread. My suspicions is confirmed. 

    Cryomatrix
    I dont understand, completely confused and is it related to the conversation?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    SEANMCAD said:
    Luiden said:
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/13/16767590/star-citizen-refund

    What happens when you have an industry with no oversight.
    you need to understand that what you are advocating is a fascist state. I am not sure people fully understand the implications to basically say 'zero...literally zero free market principles of any kind can work in the entertainment industry' because that means it can not work ANYWHERE.

    which means every single business decision should be regulated by a central authority.

    play that out a bit
    The only "Free Market" is the "Black Market"

    So if society wants to put rules and limits on questionable and/or unethical business practices that makes for a fascist state?

    The sad truth is that you need rules and regulations to keep companies and/or people from doing bad things to one another.

    No Fascism required.


    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Luiden said:
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/13/16767590/star-citizen-refund

    What happens when you have an industry with no oversight.
    you need to understand that what you are advocating is a fascist state. I am not sure people fully understand the implications to basically say 'zero...literally zero free market principles of any kind can work in the entertainment industry' because that means it can not work ANYWHERE.

    which means every single business decision should be regulated by a central authority.

    play that out a bit
    The only "Free Market" is the "Black Market"

    So if society wants to put rules and limits on questionable and/or unethical business practices that makes for a fascist state?

    The sad truth is that you need rules and regulations to keep companies and/or people from doing bad things to one another.

    No Fascism required.


    I am referring to 'aspects that resemble a free market'

    lets not try to obfucate the core point by getting into a debate over what is and is not free. The bottom line here is that people are advocating (by proxy)  that EVERY business decision by EVERY company for ANY reason, should be monitored and subjected to approval by a centralized authority. From if the game should be $10 instead  of $11, to imprisonment if a date for deployment is missed, characters must not show negative emotions, violence must be regulated (oh wait that is fine) etc

    that is absurd

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Luiden said:
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/13/16767590/star-citizen-refund

    What happens when you have an industry with no oversight.
    you need to understand that what you are advocating is a fascist state. I am not sure people fully understand the implications to basically say 'zero...literally zero free market principles of any kind can work in the entertainment industry' because that means it can not work ANYWHERE.

    which means every single business decision should be regulated by a central authority.

    play that out a bit
    The only "Free Market" is the "Black Market"

    So if society wants to put rules and limits on questionable and/or unethical business practices that makes for a fascist state?

    The sad truth is that you need rules and regulations to keep companies and/or people from doing bad things to one another.

    No Fascism required.


    I am referring to 'aspects that resemble a free market'

    lets not try to obfucate the core point by getting into a debate over what is and is not free. The bottom line here is that people are advocating (by proxy)  that EVERY business decision by EVERY company for ANY reason, should be monitored and subjected to approval by a centralized authority. From if the game should be $10 instead  of $11, to imprisonment if a date for deployment is missed, characters must not show negative emotions, violence must be regulated (oh wait that is fine) etc

    that is absurd
    Thank the Gods that we are not governed by a two sided coin.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Luiden said:
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/13/16767590/star-citizen-refund

    What happens when you have an industry with no oversight.
    you need to understand that what you are advocating is a fascist state. I am not sure people fully understand the implications to basically say 'zero...literally zero free market principles of any kind can work in the entertainment industry' because that means it can not work ANYWHERE.

    which means every single business decision should be regulated by a central authority.

    play that out a bit
    The only "Free Market" is the "Black Market"

    So if society wants to put rules and limits on questionable and/or unethical business practices that makes for a fascist state?

    The sad truth is that you need rules and regulations to keep companies and/or people from doing bad things to one another.

    No Fascism required.


    I am referring to 'aspects that resemble a free market'

    lets not try to obfucate the core point by getting into a debate over what is and is not free. The bottom line here is that people are advocating (by proxy)  that EVERY business decision by EVERY company for ANY reason, should be monitored and subjected to approval by a centralized authority. From if the game should be $10 instead  of $11, to imprisonment if a date for deployment is missed, characters must not show negative emotions, violence must be regulated (oh wait that is fine) etc

    that is absurd
    Thank the Gods that we are not governed by a two sided coin.
    if you cant have some level of flexibility in an entertainment product how can you logically not be even more restrictive on other industries?

    For example, if we say 'people are not allowed to give money to a project even when the project states that they do not know for sure if the project will be successful or completed'
    if we make that a rule, hell how can we have anyone decide on how they want to spend their money on anything? you MUST have salt and pepper for your meal, you cant decide for yourself even if we tell you exactly what youre getting.

    its absurd!

    people are not donating to KS games because they think its a promise. They know full well its nothing more than a goal, sometimes goals dont work out and that is fine.

    and who should this centralized authority be? managers of Electronic Arts or the Developers of the Fun Pimps?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • OrashnaOrashna Member CommonPosts: 8

    Something something, a fool and his money are soon parted, something something

    It's not up to the gubermint, it's up to people who decide to "donate" or "gamble" their money

    If you don't want to gamble/donate your money, it's simple, don't

    But knowing that you are gambling on a company, know that it's a risk. If we started regulating it this way then sure, you'd see a lot less fools getting parted with their money (at least through this means anyway) and you'd also see a lot less companies trying to create new games for fear of failure and refunding all the money they used to try and create something

    I get where you're coming from with wanting to go after predatory companies out for a cash grab though. And that's where the free markets will decide their future, and any future endeavors they have if they've been caught doing a cash-grab in the past

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Orashna said:

    Something something, a fool and his money are soon parted, something something

    It's not up to the gubermint, it's up to people who decide to "donate" or "gamble" their money

    If you don't want to gamble/donate your money, it's simple, don't

    But knowing that you are gambling on a company, know that it's a risk. If we started regulating it this way then sure, you'd see a lot less fools getting parted with their money (at least through this means anyway) and you'd also see a lot less companies trying to create new games for fear of failure and refunding all the money they used to try and create something

    I get where you're coming from with wanting to go after predatory companies out for a cash grab though. And that's where the free markets will decide their future, and any future endeavors they have if they've been caught doing a cash-grab in the past

    we also would run the risk of members of that centralized authority controlling content.

    members might say games with zombies and building mechanics we should not have, we must have lootboxes.

    people forget, when you have a centralized authority those people decide for EVERYONE
    Orashna

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,152
    Maybe instead of regulating the industry the gov needs to regulate how many and what games you can buy instead at what time.  That would fix the problem.

    Or better yet how about if you don't want to take a risk on a EA or Kickstarter game then YOU don't spend your money on it and wait till release instead. I mean that shouldn't be that hard for you to do.

    When I backed SC I knew exactly what I was getting. I knew full well that there was ZERO grantees that the game will even release.  But last time I checked that was MY money that I earned and I should have the right to spend that money as I see fit. I do not need the gov telling me I can't buy X or Y because they feel that I shouldn't.

    Even if SC never releases or disappears tomorrow, I am perfectly fine with that. It is / was a risk I am willing to take on something that I would fine fun if it releases. I looked at my finances and decided I had X money that I could spend and still be fine with.
    Orashna
  • OrashnaOrashna Member CommonPosts: 8
    Maybe instead of regulating the industry the gov needs to regulate how many and what games you can buy instead at what time.  That would fix the problem.

    Or better yet how about if you don't want to take a risk on a EA or Kickstarter game then YOU don't spend your money on it and wait till release instead. I mean that shouldn't be that hard for you to do.

    When I backed SC I knew exactly what I was getting. I knew full well that there was ZERO grantees that the game will even release.  But last time I checked that was MY money that I earned and I should have the right to spend that money as I see fit. I do not need the gov telling me I can't buy X or Y because they feel that I shouldn't.

    Even if SC never releases or disappears tomorrow, I am perfectly fine with that. It is / was a risk I am willing to take on something that I would fine fun if it releases. I looked at my finances and decided I had X money that I could spend and still be fine with.

    100x this
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