When developers say the game is in BETA, but still have a working subscription / cash shop?

Rhoklaw

People are having some issues with the game and have asked for reparations for time / money lost due to server instability and game breaking mechanics. This was one of the developers responses to that line of questions on their official Discord.

wolfpack2012

Don't you know? Beta is how they avoid having to pay for half assing their game. Until there is a law that prevents the shady way they use beta as a way to avoid legal issues it will keep being like this.

DrunkWolf

as long as its in beta the game can broken and who cares? because its in beta right?

Rhoklaw

wolfpack2012 said:

Don't you know? Beta is how they avoid having to pay for half assing their game. Until there is a law that prevents the shady way they use beta as a way to avoid legal issues it will keep being like this.

Well, they can only use that excuse if they plan on wiping the server when the game officially launches this month and return all items and money spent. If they are taking money from the cash shop or subscriptions, it doesn't matter if they say it's in BETA. The US has consumer laws for a reason, so people don't have to be bullied by corporate greed. Granted Bitbox is a Russian entity, I'm sure they understand the basic concept of consumer laws, but I'm not Russian, so who knows how it works over there.

pantaro

after doing a bit of research since i have heard of the game but didnt know what was what,i read the faq and now i totally get why you started this thread.

Talk about a mess of Monetization  and this person has the nerve to say we owe you nothing yet they wanna charge people for everything under the sun hahahah!

Calaruil

Rhoklaw said:

wolfpack2012 said:

Don't you know? Beta is how they avoid having to pay for half assing their game. Until there is a law that prevents the shady way they use beta as a way to avoid legal issues it will keep being like this.

Well, they can only use that excuse if they plan on wiping the server when the game officially launches this month and return all items and money spent. If they are taking money from the cash shop or subscriptions, it doesn't matter if they say it's in BETA. The US has consumer laws for a reason, so people don't have to be bullied by corporate greed. Granted Bitbox is a Russian entity, I'm sure they understand the basic concept of consumer laws, but I'm not Russian, so who knows how it works over there.

Pretty sure they are bound by laws in the country they are selling in. So if an American is unhappy they would sue in an American court with American laws.


On this not, it is buggy, very much so, and I stopped playing because it takes even m0re grinding than YO to level up skills. 
I haven' bought anything from the cash shop and wouldn't for a beta game.

waynejr2

Oh look at this.  We need the government to help protect us.  How about being better adults and consumers and don't spend money for alpha/beta products unless you are willing to lose the money and not talk about it.

Rhoklaw

Calaruil said:

Rhoklaw said:

wolfpack2012 said:

Don't you know? Beta is how they avoid having to pay for half assing their game. Until there is a law that prevents the shady way they use beta as a way to avoid legal issues it will keep being like this.

Well, they can only use that excuse if they plan on wiping the server when the game officially launches this month and return all items and money spent. If they are taking money from the cash shop or subscriptions, it doesn't matter if they say it's in BETA. The US has consumer laws for a reason, so people don't have to be bullied by corporate greed. Granted Bitbox is a Russian entity, I'm sure they understand the basic concept of consumer laws, but I'm not Russian, so who knows how it works over there.

Pretty sure they are bound by laws in the country they are selling in. So if an American is unhappy they would sue in an American court with American laws.


On this not, it is buggy, very much so, and I stopped playing because it takes even m0re grinding than YO to level up skills. 
I haven' bought anything from the cash shop and wouldn't for a beta game.

Well, don't get me wrong. I actually love the game and think its by far one of the most hyper realistic sandbox survival games out there. I just didn't like that Devs response to the ongoing server instability and game bugs causing people to lose money they spent on the game. At any rate, I've had issues with AAA companies with lying, cheating and stealing, so it's nothing new to me. Just pointing this out for others to take notice of what they are getting into should they choose to buy the game.

Kyleran

A good quote from Steam, where LiF is clearly flagged as an Early Access title..

"You should be aware that some teams will be unable to 'finish' their game. So you should only buy an Early Access game if you are excited about playing it in its current stat"

If one is really upset with their purchase, asking for a refund or doing a chargeback may be the only recourse.

Octagon7711

Any game that allows you to pay a sub, buy items, and play the game that won't be wiped is considered live to me. 

time007

been happening for years. its actually the standard nowadays hehehe.

rojoArcueid

DMKano said:

ProTip - When trying to figure out the state of a game - only ask one question:

Will there be a future database wipe?

if NO - the game is LAUNCHED - regardless of what the label is (alpha, beta, early access etc...)

if YES - then the game is still in testing

This is all that really matters 

Simply ignore all other labels (pre-launch, early access, pre-alpha, beta etc... simply don't pay any attention to any of those anymore)

This is a good idea but only temporarily. When the companies notice the trend of asking that question they will start lying then doing damage control later.

pantaro

DMKano said:

ProTip - When trying to figure out the state of a game - only ask one question:

Will there be a future database wipe?

if NO - the game is LAUNCHED - regardless of what the label is (alpha, beta, early access etc...)

if YES - then the game is still in testing

This is all that really matters 

Simply ignore all other labels (pre-launch, early access, pre-alpha, beta etc... simply don't pay any attention to any of those anymore)

yep you pretty much have to use this logic now. every studio these days likes to do word play just so they seem different to people who just dont know better.

Rhoklaw

Well, the current server instability and in-game issues for the past 4+ days has made the game mostly unplayable for some, somewhat unplayable for others and slightly unplayable for the rest. Any MMO I've ever played usually offered extensions to subscriptions and reparations for items / money lost due to said problems.

I don't understand how any game that claims to be in BETA that has a working subscription and cash shop can claim it's still in BETA. I don't care if they don't wipe at the "official steam launch" next week ( which is an extremely stupid decision on their part ), but then you should be doing reparations for your servers being wonky for days at a time.

Kyleran

Rhoklaw said:

Well, the current server instability and in-game issues for the past 4+ days has made the game mostly unplayable for some, somewhat unplayable for others and slightly unplayable for the rest. Any MMO I've ever played usually offered extensions to subscriptions and reparations for items / money lost due to said problems.

I don't understand how any game that claims to be in BETA that has a working subscription and cash shop can claim it's still in BETA. I don't care if they don't wipe at the "official steam launch" next week ( which is an extremely stupid decision on their part ), but then you should be doing reparations for your servers being wonky for days at a time.

Again,  comparing apples (officially launched or released) to oranges (early access, aka alpha, beta, etc) games.

Are you aware of any games (i.e. Ark, Conan Exiles, Dark and Light) in early access which have offered reparations for access issues prior to official launch?

To be more accurate, the comparison should probably be made to recent MMORPG indie titles of which there are few, Albion, Crowfall, Shroud of the Avatar come to mind,  did any of them offer reparations for lost access time prior to launch? (All accepted money prior to launch as far as I know)

It's why I won't buy or play any game these days without waiting at least 6 months to a year post "launch" and why it irritates me to see such dates never posted (i.e. CU, SC) or long delayed, often for many years. (Ark, 7 Days to Die etc)

Rhoklaw

Kyleran said:

Rhoklaw said:

Well, the current server instability and in-game issues for the past 4+ days has made the game mostly unplayable for some, somewhat unplayable for others and slightly unplayable for the rest. Any MMO I've ever played usually offered extensions to subscriptions and reparations for items / money lost due to said problems.

I don't understand how any game that claims to be in BETA that has a working subscription and cash shop can claim it's still in BETA. I don't care if they don't wipe at the "official steam launch" next week ( which is an extremely stupid decision on their part ), but then you should be doing reparations for your servers being wonky for days at a time.

Again,  comparing apples (officially launched or released) to oranges (early access, aka alpha, beta, etc) games.

Are you aware of any games (i.e. Ark, Conan Exiles, Dark and Light) in early access which have offered reparations for access issues prior to official launch?

To be more accurate, the comparison should probably be made to recent MMORPG indie titles of which there are few, Albion, Crowfall, Shroud of the Avatar come to mind,  did any of them offer reparations for lost access time prior to launch? (All accepted money prior to launch as far as I know)

It's why I won't buy or play any game these days without waiting at least 6 months to a year post "launch" and why it irritates me to see such dates never posted (i.e. CU, SC) or long delayed, often for many years. (Ark, 7 Days to Die etc)

Ark, Conan and D&L don't have a subscription or a cash shop. So that doesn't really point anything out to the contrary. I don't know anything about SotA or what state the game is in or whether it has a working subscription or cash shop. As for Crowfall, it's not using a working subscription or cash shop, so that doesn't really point anything out to the contrary. Last but not least, Albion clearly defined that they would have wipes up until launch and that being the last wipe if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure anyone money spent or items purchased during those BETA moments were once again refunded into player inventory once the game launched.

LiF: MMO claims to be in BETA, for about 5 weeks now. It claims it's going to officially launch on Steam next week. If the game is in BETA, then why not do a final wipe before official launch? That seems the most sensible thing to do for any developer. Adversely, any money spent on subscriptions would be restarted from scratch along with any money spent on in-game items.

No offense, but no amount of arguing will change the fact that if a game studio puts out a game that has a working subscription / cash shop, it's no longer in BETA, it is live. So, with that being said, they can still choose not to refund time / items / money lost due to crappy server performance, but that certainly won't help them with reviews. Either way, it's a extremely poor approach to the situation and an obvious nail in their coffin.

MaxBacon

Life is Feudal MMO is considered a persistent release, not a test wipe thing, the things you buy persist, it is a released game, just not released in a version considered stable.

And it's far from something uncommon, some have the cash stores while in alpha/beta the others have founder packages with shinies, etc...

Rhoklaw

MaxBacon said:

Life is Feudal MMO is considered a persistent release, not a test wipe thing, the things you buy persist, it is a released game, just not released in a version considered stable.

And it's far from something uncommon, some have the cash stores while in alpha/beta the others have founder packages with shinies, etc...

I understand founders packs and as many of those that I've invested in, ALL of them didn't start the subscription until the game officially launched. Starting subscriptions means you are running a live version the game, end of statement. This is the problem with developers today, stating one thing but doing another. This falls under the category of, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Your game is either in BETA and will most likely wipe at launch ( except for headstarts which usually consist of a few days before launch ) or your game is live, as in launched, as in no more wipes. I've never heard of any online game charging subscriptions while still in BETA. If that is some sort of new practice, then I guess I'm not aware of it. Definitely not the standard by any means.

Kyleran

Rhoklaw said:

MaxBacon said:

Life is Feudal MMO is considered a persistent release, not a test wipe thing, the things you buy persist, it is a released game, just not released in a version considered stable.

And it's far from something uncommon, some have the cash stores while in alpha/beta the others have founder packages with shinies, etc...

I understand founders packs and as many of those that I've invested in, ALL of them didn't start the subscription until the game officially launched. Starting subscriptions means you are running a live version the game, end of statement. This is the problem with developers today, stating one thing but doing another. This falls under the category of, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Your game is either in BETA and will most likely wipe at launch ( except for headstarts which usually consist of a few days before launch ) or your game is live, as in launched, as in no more wipes. I've never heard of any online game charging subscriptions while still in BETA. If that is some sort of new practice, then I guess I'm not aware of it. Definitely not the standard by any means.

OK, finally on same page and I agree with your concern, and it's definitely not a standard to behave this way as far as I've seen before.

If they have stopped server wipes and are accepting money from subs and cash shop purchases they are "launched" and its BS to try and hide behind an early access or beta moniker to avoid paying any compensation for significant downtime.

Horusra

If it states it is in a Beta state and you willingly pay the sub it sounds like the risk for downtimes and issues is on you for not being willing to wait.

Rhoklaw

Horusra said:

If it states it is in a Beta state and you willingly pay the sub it sounds like the risk for downtimes and issues is on you for not being willing to wait.

That kind of approach to business will surely bite any game studio in the derriere. Sure, anyone can do anything they want, but that's why we have consumer laws in America, to protect those of us too stupid to know better. So, I guess the only thing left to do is make everyone aware of how Bitbox does business and that way no one has to suffer like so many others already have.

Word of mouth is consumers greatest weapon.

DijonCyanide

This is why I won't donate to &/or purchase any game till it is released.  If the company doesn't have enough confidence in it's game yet why should I?

The gaming companies are taking advantage of the current too behind the times consumer laws regarding games & the overall gaming culture where it has somehow transitioned to a pay now & maybe play later if all goes well.  However, a certain percentage of consumers seem to be okay with it so if something goes awry don't blame the company blame yourself in most cases.

I remember when it used to be a bit of honor to receive a "beta test" invite & contribute to a game's development. 

MaxBacon

Rhoklaw said:
while in alpha/beta the others have founder packages with shinies, etc...

I understand founders packs and as many of those that I've invested in, ALL of them didn't start the subscription until the game officially launched. Starting subscriptions means you are running a live version the game, end of statement. This is the problem with developers today, stating one thing but doing another. This falls under the category of, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Your game is either in BETA and will most likely wipe at launch ( except for headstarts which usually consist of a few days before launch ) or your game is live, as in launched, as in no more wipes. I've never heard of any online game charging subscriptions while still in BETA. If that is some sort of new practice, then I guess I'm not aware of it. Definitely not the standard by any means.

I don't think so, the game service is there, everything the subscription englobes is available in the game right now. Even if there is a wipe, that for all I know isn't planned, those perks will retain under your account, expect what was obviously temporary (you made use of during the beta).

SEANMCAD

I find it odd that when FortNite did exactly that AND charged more for the beta version then average AND the game was free to play AND it had active paid lootboxes....nothing but silence.

that appears to be ok if they do it

Horusra

Rhoklaw said:

Horusra said:

If it states it is in a Beta state and you willingly pay the sub it sounds like the risk for downtimes and issues is on you for not being willing to wait.

That kind of approach to business will surely bite any game studio in the derriere. Sure, anyone can do anything they want, but that's why we have consumer laws in America, to protect those of us too stupid to know better. So, I guess the only thing left to do is make everyone aware of how Bitbox does business and that way no one has to suffer like so many others already have.

Word of mouth is consumers greatest weapon.

if you are making individual laws to protect stupid people the world is in trouble.

GeezerGamer

Horusra said:

Rhoklaw said:

Horusra said:

If it states it is in a Beta state and you willingly pay the sub it sounds like the risk for downtimes and issues is on you for not being willing to wait.

That kind of approach to business will surely bite any game studio in the derriere. Sure, anyone can do anything they want, but that's why we have consumer laws in America, to protect those of us too stupid to know better. So, I guess the only thing left to do is make everyone aware of how Bitbox does business and that way no one has to suffer like so many others already have.

Word of mouth is consumers greatest weapon.

if you are making individual laws to protect stupid people the world is in trouble.

But that's the problem. Stupid people hurt themselves, but then sue everyone else.......and they win often enough so you can't ignore them. They don't go away.


Can't fix stupid.