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The game should run on a toaster

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  • kertinkertin Member UncommonPosts: 252
    Dullahan said:
    kertin said:
    Dullahan said:
    kertin said:

    Even very successful PUBG which seems to be still quite unoptimized does feel well while playing...

    and Pantheon? I can already smell how clunky this game will be, I want Pantheon to be great game but it won't happen, it can do just well but it will be nowhere to being successful :)...with their engine they won't be probably able to make it smooth and silky!

    YES! First, it's all about being SMOOTH and SILKY!
    The PUBG line was where you lost me, and contrary to your thesis. The game is objectively about as clunky as it gets, yet people still play it. Especially prior to 1.0 before you could actually step over or vault walls or tiny steps, you got stuck on everything. The hit detection is often poor, constant rubberbanding in the early game, character models look and move generically (like stock assets/animations) and performance is laughable for a game that looks a decade behind the graphical standard.

    So why do millions play PUBG? Because it offers something unique, much like Pantheon will. This isn't an excuse for Pantheon to have poor graphics or animations -  the mmorpg is a different genre where those details are actually more important - but it shows if the game is unique and enjoyable, people will excuse it.
    Look, as I said, PUBG does feel well while playing, I don't know how to explain it but PUBG just plays really well, it's really not that bad as you say but I agree 1.0 brought lots of problems, which can be and very probably will be solved. Pantheon's problems won't be solved, trust me, you say Pantheon is unique thus gets lots of players? Nooo, that's not how it works. Pantheon will get just enough players to do fine.
    Except it became wildly popular when it operated and performed horribly. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally addicted to PUBG, but I can maintain my objectivity. Before 1.0 I couldn't even bring myself to play it due to all the issues with movement, hit detection, rubberbanding and poor performance.

    CoD feels good, CS feels good, BF feels good, Overwatch looks smooth (haven't played) ... PUBG feels mediocre to this day, even if 1.0 improved everything (except rubberbanding). Yet people still play it. That is 100% because it offers something different. Soon as a triple A quality version comes out from someone else, pubg will die overnight.

    What "Pantheon problems" won't be solved exactly? The game is in pre-alpha and has solved many of these problems during development up to this point. Things are only going to get better, so even asserting what will or won't be solved at this point is foolish.
    First, you need to realize, PUBG is "different" genre, you can't compare it to CS, COD, BF or OW...I believe you agree there are not many games like PUBG, right? Not big competition. And look - Fortnite, as i said more than 1million concurrent players and still growing! If PUBG and Fortnite battle royale would release at same time, Fortnite would be winner! You think if triple A BR game releases PUBG will die that easily? Nope, it won't. I agree if there is something new and innovative, players will sacrifice smooth and silky. MMORPG genre is old! Pantheon is not enough innovative to make big BOOM on MMORPG scene. Did you see Pantheon's engine? It'll never be smooth and silky, you can't do anything with that engine, combat won't feel enough responsive, animations won't be awesome...again, Pantheon will do just fine, I didn't say it'll fail but...
    It won't become big
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,685
    I guess we all are expecting EQ quality graphics on this one.....
  • kertinkertin Member UncommonPosts: 252
    I guess we all are expecting EQ quality graphics on this one.....
    It's not about graphics... you can have horrible graphics and game can still feel smooth and silky!
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    Azaron_NightbladeMrMelGibsonJustsomenoobThebeastttKyleran
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited December 2017
    kertin said:
    Dullahan said:

    Except it became wildly popular when it operated and performed horribly. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally addicted to PUBG, but I can maintain my objectivity. Before 1.0 I couldn't even bring myself to play it due to all the issues with movement, hit detection, rubberbanding and poor performance.

    CoD feels good, CS feels good, BF feels good, Overwatch looks smooth (haven't played) ... PUBG feels mediocre to this day, even if 1.0 improved everything (except rubberbanding). Yet people still play it. That is 100% because it offers something different. Soon as a triple A quality version comes out from someone else, pubg will die overnight.

    What "Pantheon problems" won't be solved exactly? The game is in pre-alpha and has solved many of these problems during development up to this point. Things are only going to get better, so even asserting what will or won't be solved at this point is foolish.
    First, you need to realize, PUBG is "different" genre, you can't compare it to CS, COD, BF or OW...I believe you agree there are not many games like PUBG, right? Not big competition. And look - Fortnite, as i said more than 1million concurrent players and still growing! If PUBG and Fortnite battle royale would release at same time, Fortnite would be winner! You think if triple A BR game releases PUBG will die that easily? Nope, it won't. I agree if there is something new and innovative, players will sacrifice smooth and silky. MMORPG genre is old! Pantheon is not enough innovative to make big BOOM on MMORPG scene. Did you see Pantheon's engine? It'll never be smooth and silky, you can't do anything with that engine, combat won't feel enough responsive, animations won't be awesome...again, Pantheon will do just fine, I didn't say it'll fail but...
    It won't become big
    PUBG should be held to the same fps standards of quality, even if gameplay differs. An fps is an fps, even if the mode is different. You should be able to move without getting stuck or rubberbanding back. You should be able to fire at someone and know it's going to hit when they're in your crosshairs. Movement should look natural and predictable. This is not the case in pubg.

    Fortnite is BR, but very different gameplay. Everything from movement, to aiming, to building and graphics are completely different. Mark my words, if someone else comes along and releases a high quality battle royal with realistic graphics that plays like BF or CS and has decent maps, pubg will become a bad memory.

    You're out of your depth regarding Pantheon's engine. Numerous "smooth and silky" games have been created with Unity. The problem with unity lies with those using it, not with the engine itself. Because it's a very approachable engine, it attracts a lot of amateur developers. Just look down the list of games that have been created with it and you'll be surprised just how many quality titles have been created with it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unity_games#2017


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.

    shut up 


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    kertin said:
    I guess we all are expecting EQ quality graphics on this one.....
    It's not about graphics... you can have horrible graphics and game can still feel smooth and silky!

    Agree,
    its not about graphics, but I do have to say often when devs go for realistic you have more problems with optimizing.
  • kertinkertin Member UncommonPosts: 252
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    Don't worry, it'll probably happen, just wait for it, it's going to be LEGEN.......DARY!
  • kertinkertin Member UncommonPosts: 252
    kertin said:
    I guess we all are expecting EQ quality graphics on this one.....
    It's not about graphics... you can have horrible graphics and game can still feel smooth and silky!

    Agree,
    its not about graphics, but I do have to say often when devs go for realistic you have more problems with optimizing.
    True, I have to agree on this one!
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,697
    I'd take good physics and polish over graphics any time. Thats where most MMOs fail me. 
    kertin
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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  • kertinkertin Member UncommonPosts: 252
    Dullahan said:
    kertin said:
    Dullahan said:

    Except it became wildly popular when it operated and performed horribly. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally addicted to PUBG, but I can maintain my objectivity. Before 1.0 I couldn't even bring myself to play it due to all the issues with movement, hit detection, rubberbanding and poor performance.

    CoD feels good, CS feels good, BF feels good, Overwatch looks smooth (haven't played) ... PUBG feels mediocre to this day, even if 1.0 improved everything (except rubberbanding). Yet people still play it. That is 100% because it offers something different. Soon as a triple A quality version comes out from someone else, pubg will die overnight.

    What "Pantheon problems" won't be solved exactly? The game is in pre-alpha and has solved many of these problems during development up to this point. Things are only going to get better, so even asserting what will or won't be solved at this point is foolish.
    First, you need to realize, PUBG is "different" genre, you can't compare it to CS, COD, BF or OW...I believe you agree there are not many games like PUBG, right? Not big competition. And look - Fortnite, as i said more than 1million concurrent players and still growing! If PUBG and Fortnite battle royale would release at same time, Fortnite would be winner! You think if triple A BR game releases PUBG will die that easily? Nope, it won't. I agree if there is something new and innovative, players will sacrifice smooth and silky. MMORPG genre is old! Pantheon is not enough innovative to make big BOOM on MMORPG scene. Did you see Pantheon's engine? It'll never be smooth and silky, you can't do anything with that engine, combat won't feel enough responsive, animations won't be awesome...again, Pantheon will do just fine, I didn't say it'll fail but...
    It won't become big
    PUBG should be held to the same fps standards of quality, even if gameplay differs. An fps is an fps, even if the mode is different. You should be able to move without getting stuck or rubberbanding back. You should be able to fire at someone and know it's going to hit when they're in your crosshairs. Movement should look natural and predictable. This is not the case in pubg.

    Fortnite is BR, but very different gameplay. Everything from movement, to aiming, to building and graphics are completely different. Mark my words, if someone else comes along and releases a high quality battle royal with realistic graphics that plays like BF or CS and has decent maps, pubg will become a bad memory.

    You're out of your depth regarding Pantheon's engine. Numerous "smooth and silky" games have been created with Unity. The problem with unity lies with those using it, not with the engine itself. Because it's a very approachable engine, it attracts a lot of amateur developers. Just look down the list of games that have been created with it and you'll be surprised just how many quality titles have been created with it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unity_games#2017

    I don't know what engine Pantheon uses and honestly I don't have required know-how when it comes to engines...I was just able to tell from eartly footages and gameplays, it's enough for me to know that combat won't be responsive etc. (I already told that milion times)...so after checking your list I have to agree that there are smooth titles on that list and problem is just with those using it.

    BR is very popular now so it's probable some triple A title will come out soon and we will see :)
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 484
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    He sure does get people talking in here though... 
    kertin
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,874
    edited December 2017
    @op...your not getting a million or two players on ANY server any game unless it is a terribly run server that is basically a global server that runs like an instance.

    What is typical of server pop and gives a healthy base to play with is around 5k.If the game is very small then you can go down to 2500 and when new out of the gate you don't even need that less than 1500 is doable until players span out more over more zones.I am not talking about total players signed up but amount of players online at one time.

    I have not done or can't remember doing any research on this game's engine nor do any of us know how packed a zone will be,so in reality,nobody knows how the game will run.

    Memory leaks are the problem,bad code just causes loops and problems,an area that SOE did NOT take good care to patch up,they literally took multiple years to do simple fixes,like a map fix i remember in Nektolos lasted about 4-5 years b4 fixed.So i hope this team is not going to follow in the same footsteps as SOE and is fully ready to fix bad code.

    I also hope we are not going to see that SOE ordeal of server resets every day or two,i played FFXI and never had to worry about resets,only during events however i suspect like Steam had more to do with the cash shop loading new items everyday.
    Azaron_Nightblade

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Wizardry said:
    @op...your not getting a million or two players on ANY server any game unless it is a terribly run server that is basically a global server that runs like an instance.

    What is typical of server pop and gives a healthy base to play with is around 5k.If the game is very small then you can go down to 2500 and when new out of the gate you don't even need that less than 1500 is doable until players span out more over more zones.I am not talking about total players signed up but amount of players online at one time.

    I have not done or can't remember doing any research on this game's engine nor do any of us know how packed a zone will be,so in reality,nobody knows how the game will run.

    Memory leaks are the problem,bad code just causes loops and problems,an area that SOE did NOT take good care to patch up,they literally took multiple years to do simple fixes,like a map fix i remember in Nektolos lasted about 4-5 years b4 fixed.So i hope this team is not going to follow in the same footsteps as SOE and is fully ready to fix bad code.

    I also hope we are not going to see that SOE ordeal of server resets every day or two,i played FFXI and never had to worry about resets,only during events however i suspect like Steam had more to do with the cash shop loading new items everyday.

    I was exaggerating about millions, sorry  

    One thing about SOE, They always looked ahead with pumping out expansions and they never look back at any messes they should have fixed.  Blizzard spent a few years fixing Vanilla before they pumped them out.... Also understand its a new Blizzard now, what I'm saying is that was in the past !  

    SOE was a coding mess
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Gyva02 said:
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    He sure does get people talking in here though... 

    I'm sorry I pump out so many topics, 

    With this topic in particular, I'm very concerned.  For me this is the turning back point to save mmorpg's and all the videos I notice a un-optimized mess, behind the beautiful candy. 

    Now it's in pre-alpha.  But I see a pattern in this developers coding that I recognized from years past.... and its not good !  
  • kertinkertin Member UncommonPosts: 252
    One more fact: there was footage with Pantheon developers on CohhCarnage stream...and Pantheon devs were really nice in chat too, they answered lots of questions (even my questions). But when I asked if they think they can achieve smooth combat and animations I didn't get an answer, so I guess they are not sure and didn't want to lie?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Gyva02 said:
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    He sure does get people talking in here though... 

    I'm sorry I pump out so many topics, 

    With this topic in particular, I'm very concerned.  For me this is the turning back point to save mmorpg's and all the videos I notice a un-optimized mess, behind the beautiful candy. 

    Now it's in pre-alpha.  But I see a pattern in this developers coding that I recognized from years past.... and its not good !  
    What about Pantheon leads you to believe it's an unoptimized mess. Game looks okay, and has improved drastically. From what they've said, they can run 1080p at 60fps on a mid range pc.
    dcutbi001


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited December 2017
    Dullahan said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    He sure does get people talking in here though... 

    I'm sorry I pump out so many topics, 

    With this topic in particular, I'm very concerned.  For me this is the turning back point to save mmorpg's and all the videos I notice a un-optimized mess, behind the beautiful candy. 

    Now it's in pre-alpha.  But I see a pattern in this developers coding that I recognized from years past.... and its not good !  
    What about Pantheon leads you to believe it's an unoptimized mess. Game looks okay, and has improved drastically. From what they've said, they can run 1080p at 60fps on a mid range pc.

    In this video I'll try my best to explain 

       

    As they're standing on the tower ledge the players feet are square as compared to the 45 degree ledge.  This shows the player is really disconnected from the environment.  

    As the player zooms in and out, two things happen.  First their hands disappear from their weapons totally disconnected from their bodies (happens several times). Next the screen shutters and clips.  At one point a player completely disappears.  

    When their in the cave, one player jumps off a rock and floats for a brief second.  Look at 32:29, the player is jumping "at" a vertical straight rock, yet they are sticking or hovering on the side of it. 

    The red banners as they're on the tower are not flowing like everything else.  Now this is no big deal, but it shows the banners are not part of the world.  I'll say it differently.... You have the players, environment and the banners all separately. 

    In early part of the video they zoom on a white oak tree that is disconnected from the ground as if its pasted to the environment.   

    When Kilsin kills the big rat at the end, the rat is sunk part way into the ground when dead.
      


    Now with all this you would think pre-alpha....... What I see is every problem associated with Everquest 2 and Vanguard only 10 years later.   

    - Remember back in EQ2 where a player would be too large for a room and get stuck behind a table (players size vs. the room didn't match)  ?  
    - Remember when players are facing a wall, you would be getting a view of an adjacent room ?


    This is exactly Vanguard only more shiny !
    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    While those are all valid issues, I don't even know how to respond other than to ask whether you actually know what words like in-development or pre-alpha mean. Those are not pre-alpha issues. In fact, many new games don't even have real physics or models that adjust to the environment as you described - even at release. Unreal Engine just added a new inverse kinematic (IK) foot placement this year, and Unity has a way to do this as well, but polish like IK animations are not generally found at this phase of development.

    They even addressed the flags and issues of the sort in the video...


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Dullahan said:
    While those are all valid issues, I don't even know how to respond other than to ask whether you actually know what words like in-development or pre-alpha mean. Those are not pre-alpha issues. In fact, many new games don't even have real physics or models that adjust to the environment as you described - even at release. Unreal Engine just added a new inverse kinematic (IK) foot placement this year, and Unity has a way to do this as well, but polish like IK animations are not generally found at this phase of development.

    They even addressed the flags and issues of the sort in the video...

    Sure, I see your point clearly

    As far as pre-alpha I'll even acknowledge your point deeper by saying I've watched this games graphics blossom ten fold in a single year. 

    However a few points I would like to make: 
    - It seems as if its going down the same optimization road as Vanguard and Everquest 2.... if so, that's not good.  This observation is coming from a player not a developer perspective, It seems you have more knowledge than I. 

    - This extreme ultra graphics road could be spent on premium game play.... These people are very talented with imagination.... Could you in vision the amount of content this game could truly have ?..... People are screaming for good content above graphics across this web site.  

    - I'll always say, take your time, and most would agree....... But how much do they have done, or are they screwing around with graphics on a small portion of a map ?  



    We could seriously be looking at 2021 release here, just because their fucking around with optimizing EVERYTHING for a world....... If so maybe they shouldn't be hyping the game until 2020.  Lets not forget pissing off all the backers all because they want to screw around with graphics !...........Lots of people want a game !     
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Dullahan said:
    While those are all valid issues, I don't even know how to respond other than to ask whether you actually know what words like in-development or pre-alpha mean. Those are not pre-alpha issues. In fact, many new games don't even have real physics or models that adjust to the environment as you described - even at release. Unreal Engine just added a new inverse kinematic (IK) foot placement this year, and Unity has a way to do this as well, but polish like IK animations are not generally found at this phase of development.

    They even addressed the flags and issues of the sort in the video...

    Sure, I see your point clearly

    As far as pre-alpha I'll even acknowledge your point deeper by saying I've watched this games graphics blossom ten fold in a single year. 

    However a few points I would like to make: 
    - It seems as if its going down the same optimization road as Vanguard and Everquest 2.... if so, that's not good.  This observation is coming from a player not a developer perspective, It seems you have more knowledge than I. 

    - This extreme ultra graphics road could be spent on premium game play.... These people are very talented with imagination.... Could you in vision the amount of content this game could truly have ?..... People are screaming for good content above graphics across this web site.  

    - I'll always say, take your time, and most would agree....... But how much do they have done, or are they screwing around with graphics on a small portion of a map ?  



    We could seriously be looking at 2021 release here, just because their fucking around with optimizing EVERYTHING for a world....... If so maybe they shouldn't be hyping the game until 2020.  Lets not forget pissing off all the backers all because they want to screw around with graphics !...........Lots of people want a game !     
    Yep, it's going to take a while. Sounds like you want it both ways though. You would have to forego details like flags blowing in the wind, character feet adjusting to terrain and grass that moves beneath your feet if you just want to hurry up and launch with basic mechanics and content.

    Lucky for you, they want both too. It just means it will take longer. Hopefully as the quality continues to improve, so will the investments in development. That is how the game will launch sooner.


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Dullahan said:
    Dullahan said:
    While those are all valid issues, I don't even know how to respond other than to ask whether you actually know what words like in-development or pre-alpha mean. Those are not pre-alpha issues. In fact, many new games don't even have real physics or models that adjust to the environment as you described - even at release. Unreal Engine just added a new inverse kinematic (IK) foot placement this year, and Unity has a way to do this as well, but polish like IK animations are not generally found at this phase of development.

    They even addressed the flags and issues of the sort in the video...

    Sure, I see your point clearly

    As far as pre-alpha I'll even acknowledge your point deeper by saying I've watched this games graphics blossom ten fold in a single year. 

    However a few points I would like to make: 
    - It seems as if its going down the same optimization road as Vanguard and Everquest 2.... if so, that's not good.  This observation is coming from a player not a developer perspective, It seems you have more knowledge than I. 

    - This extreme ultra graphics road could be spent on premium game play.... These people are very talented with imagination.... Could you in vision the amount of content this game could truly have ?..... People are screaming for good content above graphics across this web site.  

    - I'll always say, take your time, and most would agree....... But how much do they have done, or are they screwing around with graphics on a small portion of a map ?  



    We could seriously be looking at 2021 release here, just because their fucking around with optimizing EVERYTHING for a world....... If so maybe they shouldn't be hyping the game until 2020.  Lets not forget pissing off all the backers all because they want to screw around with graphics !...........Lots of people want a game !     
    Yep, it's going to take a while. Sounds like you want it both ways though. You would have to forego details like flags blowing in the wind, character feet adjusting to terrain and grass that moves beneath your feet if you just want to hurry up and launch with basic mechanics and content.

    Lucky for you, they want both too. It just means it will take longer. Hopefully as the quality continues to improve, so will the investments in development. That is how the game will launch sooner.

    Please don't think I'm arguing with you.  In fact I have a lot of respect for your post.  I'm just trying to get my point across is all :)
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
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    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • GeekyGeeky Member UncommonPosts: 406
    kertin said:
    it's not only about how low end PC's could run WoW so well, just look how smooth WoW felt with those animations, combat, just everything, those animations and optimization is the reason why ppl rather play WoW, even these days, lots of if not every MMO is nowhere near those WoW smooth standards! Devs should realize that nice and fast animations and optimizaton is more than half way to success :), you don't need to trust me but that's just it.

    let's take MOBA's - LoL, Dota or SMITE - all those games are so smooth, look at those animations in LoL and Dota, so quick, responsive, no wonder those games are so successful.

    look at CS:GO, Overwatch - boom, again so smooth and silky!

    Like who whould like to play unoptimized, clunky, not responsive games? pff..

    Even very successful PUBG which seems to be still quite unoptimized does feel well while playing...

    and Pantheon? I can already smell how clunky this game will be, I want Pantheon to be great game but it won't happen, it can do just well but it will be nowhere to being successful :)...with their engine they won't be probably able to make it smooth and silky!

    YES! First, it's all about being SMOOTH and SILKY!
    I agree with the premise of what this guy is saying.  I've DL'd new games that just weren't ready, becuase they have the clunkiness too them and it really turns me off.  

    If Pantheon releases, not ready, but is at least smooth in it's ability to allow me, as a character, to run around without hitching, it'll be a success.  
  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 484
    Gyva02 said:
    Can someone delete this guys account?  Please?  He has to have violated some rule regarding worthless posts by now.
    He sure does get people talking in here though... 

    I'm sorry I pump out so many topics, 

    With this topic in particular, I'm very concerned.  For me this is the turning back point to save mmorpg's and all the videos I notice a un-optimized mess, behind the beautiful candy. 

    Now it's in pre-alpha.  But I see a pattern in this developers coding that I recognized from years past.... and its not good !  
    No need to be sorry, I enjoy reading the content you help to facilitate... 
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