I didn't see anything about specialization or restrictions. I'd say it seems like a decent system if it is a highly restrictive system. If everyone can master all crafts it is a pointless system. Since you seemed to indicate a separation between crafting processes it seems like a restrictive system with specialists, it which case to me the rest is just semantics. You got the very foundation right.
I didn't see anything about specialization or restrictions. I'd say it seems like a decent system if it is a highly restrictive system. If everyone can master all crafts it is a pointless system.
DISAGREE. Damn I hate it when developers ruin a good crafting game with restrictions.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I didn't see anything about specialization or restrictions. I'd say it seems like a decent system if it is a highly restrictive system. If everyone can master all crafts it is a pointless system.
DISAGREE. Damn I hate it when developers ruin a good crafting game with restrictions.
Such restrictions might be very beneficial to the overall gameplay and community as they force players to diversify and make crafted items more valuable if done right.
Too complex . Need to be more simple . Since you only need feedback and not suggest then i only say short .
I dunno about that. Good MMO mechanics are like chess, easy to learn but hard to master.
At the same time you don't want a regular item too complex to make, adding a minigames whenever someone makes a simple basic item for instance is just annoying.
That's why i call his system complex . It require too many steps to create items . MMO mechanics need to be simple , but give out difference results . It kind of wrong for you to compare "crafting mechanic" to chess game (PVP mechanic) , i rather compare it to Puzzle (solve mechanic) . What important for crafting is consume and product . Instead of focus on "making weapon" i rather focus on consume support buff like cooking (food) , alchemy (potion) , enchant (charm) ect ... As for "equipment craft" (armor , weapon) should focus on time limited cosmetic items instead of stats item . To avoid create trash items
I like it when players have the opportunity to learn it all. It would just take forever to do that. Like in istaria. At release people still specialized though because it would take many many years to learn it all.
Now the population is so low everyone just does it on their own but 13 years later no one has learned it all still. I don't think anyone has mastered even half.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I have been contemplating the resource gathering system more
and have decided to attempt a more visual representation of three distinct
systems. I want to poll everyone's opinion on which one seems more entertaining
from three different perspectives: a gatherer, a crafter, and a player. Each of
these systems is somewhat analogous to existing or past MMORPG design: 1)
Tiered System (WoW, ESO and SWTOR), 2) Quality System, 3) Hybrid/Processing
System.
Tiered-Node System
This system relies on resource tiers, each tier corresponds to a gameplay
difficulty tier or level-bound location. The crafting with this type of system
does not often implement any variation to the final product as a result of
player decisions during the crafting process. Games that utilize this system
include World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online. Whereas WoW does not
provide the player much in the way of decision making, ESO has different
appearances that can be applied to each tier of crafting, as well as unique
attributes that can be attached. The appearance and attributes are flattened,
whereas the resources themselves provide vertical progression.
Quality-Node System
The quality-node system adds an element of
randomness to the gathering process. This means that gathering is analogous to
gambling in that with each resource gathered there is a chance of great failure
(low quality) and great success (high quality), but most resources will fall in
between (mediocre quality). Games that utilize this system include Star Wars
Galaxies and the Saga of Ryzom. In these systems the resources play a
significant role in the economy of crafting and give resource gathers more
bargaining power toward crafters. In many cases it also means that there are winners and losers in the crafting meta-game, with most of the wealthier
crafters cornering the market on high quality resources. In the example I am
illustrating that this system integrates player success and failure at each
step of the crafting process in accordance with the OP’s original post. Keep in
mind that the example also incorporates a tiered system, but that this system
is not exclusively a tiered system.
Hybrid/Processing System
This system is a bit of both of the previous two
and with its own unique application. It is also not as simplified or
all-encompassing as the previous two systems. An example of this system might
be Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, where the player gathers grafting materials but
processing affects the end result quality/success, via a mini-game. However, I
do not prefer Vanguard’s implementation, so in the following example I will
provide my preferred implementation and see what your thoughts are. To
illustrate my implementation and further explain the example, you must first
take into account that the majority of metal that we use in the world is an
alloy or a combination of
metals. This is primarily because we mix different materials until we obtain
desired properties, but historically it was the result of different deposits of
material in ore and an imperfect extraction process. The example table does not fully express the
means in which Copper is extracted from the ore, or tell you that there are
differing types of copper ore, so I will explain that here. Furthermore there
are also different materials that can be extracted from Chalcopyrite, such as
iron. This all depends on the crafter extracting the metal and on the material
itself. This system is perhaps most analogous to Star Wars Galaxies in the ore
implementation, but differs in the starting quality and processing
implementation. I left the quality numbers the same as the previous system so
that it captures that this is a hybrid between the two systems. The major
difference is in how easy it is to extract quality material from the natural
ore, which is not expressed in the chart.
Take in mind that these three systems as illustrated in the tables are not the best way to express them, but the simplest way to compare them.
Stopped right here, because this is a huge red flag for me and I had to passionately begin to write:
No. No, no. NO. NO! No.
LiF does this, and it is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my entire life as a crafter and builder in a game. Though the main problems are that:
Eventually (or immediately) anything below 90 is trash.
There will be 100 different types of the material in your bag, unless you can combine them all and still maintain their unique qualities.
Inventory management is a pain in the ass and the majority of materials are useless. Which makes gathering a pain in the butt as well. Most crafters and gatherers think with efficiency in mind. They calculate time to collect and materials necessary. They'd be willing to mine for 9 months straight to get what they want. If they need 500,000 stone? Sure. But when you start putting in 100 different quality types, that just gets depressing when you see low numbers. Disheartening. There are other crafting and gathering games at that point.
If you must have quality materials for the sake of historical accuracy, stick with "Bad", "Normal", "High Quality". Then have uses for each, or ways to make the bad into good through processing and taking out impurities. Items, too. "Shabby" "Normal" "High Quality". With skilled crafters able to make "bad" into "normal" through professional techniques (if they don't take out the impurities to make it normal), and normal into "High Quality". With normal having a much higher chance at being normal than bad would, with the same going for HQ materials having a higher likelihood of producing greatness in the hands of a master.
Balance your game around normal (maybe bad at the start) quality, with HQ being a luxury for veterans to spend money on (and an economy having low cost normal items that new players are able to purchase, and a luxury HQ version that will steadily increase in price over time). With HQ only being slightly better as a whole.
Avoid RNG as much as you're able. As a crafter, I want to feel as such and not like I'm playing a slot machine or just a mini-game of gathering by just pushing a button and seeing a bar fill up.
If there's a mess up, I want to say "I shouldn't of done that" instead of "F**k this game." Just some interaction where I feel like I had some control over whatever the outcome is.
I agree. I also agree with your other point on rare ores. But UO didn't allow for mixing ores for alloys or different types of steel, etc. Same for gold that's mixed with different metals, copper and silver, etc., for different uses. This could add a lot to game play and form the basis of special skill trees.
Steel is made by heating iron ore in carbon (charcoal). Being fantasy/sci-fi worlds, there's things you can do. Like using different types of wood charcoal for different effect ranges of the qualities or steel (durability, damage, weight, sharpness). And the same for other metals and alloys.
And again, since these are fantasy world (including sci-fi in a way), you could do the same with woods. Soaking wood in herbal waters, smoking the wood in types of fires, whatever.
But you want to limit the variation of affects (the bonus range). Too much, as you pointed out, gets messy and frustrating to play with. As a classic example, UO's new system with all those numbers was so bad that new players quit in frustration. Only older players who loved the game in die-hard fashion spent the effort to understand it.
Simple basics, with detailed layers under that simplicity, seems like the way to go, to me.
I didn't see anything about specialization or restrictions. I'd say it seems like a decent system if it is a highly restrictive system. If everyone can master all crafts it is a pointless system.
DISAGREE. Damn I hate it when developers ruin a good crafting game with restrictions.
Such restrictions might be very beneficial to the overall gameplay and community as they force players to diversify and make crafted items more valuable if done right.
If I'm not playing it, the gameplay is not the slightest beneficial to me, nor is the community benefited by my presence, and I'm a representative of a whole demographic here. Players will diversify on their own if the moneymaking potential of different types of crafting is decently balanced and especially if diversity of minigames means different players enjoy different processes. Forcing players to do anything is just a terrible mindset for a designer.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I dunno about that. Good MMO mechanics are like chess, easy to learn but hard to master.
At the same time you don't want a regular item too complex to make, adding a minigames whenever someone makes a simple basic item for instance is just annoying.
That's why i call his system complex . It require too many steps to create items . MMO mechanics need to be simple , but give out difference results . It kind of wrong for you to compare "crafting mechanic" to chess game (PVP mechanic) , i rather compare it to Puzzle (solve mechanic) . What important for crafting is consume and product . Instead of focus on "making weapon" i rather focus on consume support buff like cooking (food) , alchemy (potion) , enchant (charm) ect ... As for "equipment craft" (armor , weapon) should focus on time limited cosmetic items instead of stats item . To avoid create trash items
I didn't exactly compare it that way, just that the mechanics should be easy to learn but hard to master like chess, not that the mechanics instead should be like chess.
And I feel that fast consumables should generally be rather simple to make since you need a lot of them and creating tons of the same thing gets rather boring if it is complex. When you make something complex that is fun if it is an item you are proud to make. A trail mix or health pot is not those things.
Making a powerful enchantment to something is certainly worth taking some work but my point is that everything isn't. Maybe you could make crafting something that the players craft a lot simpler after they done it a few times?
It seems wise to avoid stats for armor and weapons though, at least to some degree. A basic damage or armorvalue is fine but all the silly stat increases are better handled elsewhere and it does as you say drop the number of trashitems.
Then why don't we make everything simple from the start ? You gather materials by yourself or buy them , then mix together to create item . Why make it complex in first few tries then make it simpler after that ? use A + B to create C (trash) then C+D to create item is ... bore , why don't just A+B+D = item ?
Materials must not be just materials item but consumable items . That's what i want to say , they must have another value aside from being materials
Then why don't we make everything simple from the start ? You gather materials by yourself or buy them , then mix together to create item . Why make it complex in first few tries then make it simpler after that ? use A + B to create C (trash) then C+D to create item is ... bore , why don't just A+B+D = item ?
Materials must not be just materials item but consumable items . That's what i want to say , they must have another value aside from being materials
Having another value or use besides besides for crafting is not bad as long as you can figure out uses for them. Sounds good to me.
The reason you want complexity the first time you make something would be to gain crafting skill, it is certainly not a must for consumables since most MMOs have it simple. My point is just that if you want to crate a stack of MREs (meals ready to eat) having a complex system for each one is just incredible boring.
Another solution would be using a complex system but allow people to create a huge stack at the same time which keep the repetition down making the whole experience more fun.
As I said, anything the average players don't need much of (like enchanting a weapon) can be far more complex, at least if you want the good stuff.
The hard thing with crafting have always been keeping it fun. Games like EQ2 originally had a minigame for crafting but when you had to create 100 tin longswords to gain a little skill only to be able to create tin longswords (yeah, both of those were as useful as they sound) and so on that minigame became a huge pain bloody fast.
Other games have the opposite problem, crafting was always so fast and simple that it felt pretty useless and everyone with the tiniest interest maxed out their skills fast (like AoC at launch).
Another thing to consider is how much materials you need to create something and how easy they are to find. In said AoC I killed 50 mammoths to get 10 leather peices I used for a belt. It was fast and simple but it felt rather silly since those mamoths should be enough to make boots and belts for a huge army. As I see it, it is generally better to make most materials rarer but making it so you don't need so much of them.
Yes, it doesn't matter so much if cooking materials are easy to get since players need food constantly but you don't want to flood the market with mats either. And it certainly is more logical that you need plenty of iron ore to make a steel bar but only one or 2 bars to make a sword instead of having 2 ores equal a bar and needing 10 or 20 bars to make a sword. It has no huge impact on a game but it feels more logical.
There is a fine line between being too simple and too complex. The real issue is that players we come from different backgrounds when it comes to what complexity means in crafting. Thinking of the current player base I would say the baulk would find this too complex. But remember that there is no need for every player to experience every element of the game.
I think its a solid system and agree with the processing over gathering principle when it comes to quality. But type of resource should of course be king, you can refine iron all you like, it won't hold up to mithril.
One problem about crafting is the developer try to use leveling progress to unlock recipes . That's forced craftsman to grind more trash , i rather prefer to collect recipes by gamble .
For example 100 iron 100 copper 100 wood to create a loot box type item that drop recipes . Player use the recipes to learn how to craft items . To level up recipes , you will need multiple same recipes . The higher level of recipes , the stronger grade of same item will be create .
One problem about crafting is the developer try to use leveling progress to unlock recipes . That's forced craftsman to grind more trash , i rather prefer to collect recipes by gamble .
For example 100 iron 100 copper 100 wood to create a loot box type item that drop recipes . Player use the recipes to learn how to craft items . To level up recipes , you will need multiple same recipes . The higher level of recipes , the stronger grade of same item will be create .
You could also add a bit of random element so you sometimes (but not often) get an upgrade when you craft the item in question, that would make sense since it is training after all and it encourage people to craft even if they havn't maxed something out yet.
I don't like your wording though, "loot box" is something that makes most of us a bit nervous today.
My ideal crafting system would be to allow the following goal:
- Crafters being known for what they are crafting. I want to people to go to person X for this material, and person Y for this material, and Person Z for this material.
For example: 1) All players can gather raw materials: for example, you collect 10 iron ore. for example, you collect 10 leather pieces.
Then you can specialize your character for making pure items: A person makes 5 bars of a certain quality. (1-100). This needs to be leveled up with passive and active skills. Another player does the same with leather. Hence, you have elite tanners and blacksmiths.
Then you have a person able to specialize in combining the pieces together to make a sword. That is your sword weapon crafter. This also needs to be leveled up with passive and active skills. The higher the quality the higher the bonuses are. But a 40 quality may give +2% while a 90 quality would give +4% mainly. So the difference isn't that great.
I'd also have the same thing for the tools (anvil, smelter, etc).
so if you wanted to the top-top items. Basically, you'd collect the highest and best materials from many different crafters and take it to the top sword crafter for example. But then there will be other crafters as well for all the other types of weapons.
You could add enchantments, slot making, salves, poisons, etc. The goal is, if you want to be someone in the world. You'd be known for making the highest quality leathers or iron bars or copper bars or sword handles, or shields or certain enchantments. So you could make money by selling the mats or being the person who focuses on making the final product.
I'd have every weapon able to have 3 enchantments.
With every patch, you increase the different types of enchantments or mods for the items and what not.
In addition, i'd allow a mechanic for bases and sieges that you can higher NPC's to serve as a garrison. You have to stock the garrison. So every item you make the garrison will always do the same dmg or defense. This way, if you make a bunch of crappy swords to level up your skill, you don't just vendor it. You can sell it on the open market for cheap. As these swords will be the same as the top quality in the hands of the garrison. I'd also allow for a few champions to be hired for the NPC's. This is where the quality on the crafted items would matter. But the garrison is sort of like the nameless trash mobs you see in games.
I always hated crafting a bunch of crap just to level up to craft more crap just to reach the top tier of crafting which is somewhat useful perhaps. This way, all crafting is meaningful and you could have many people known for their crafting abilities. You could have guilds made of just crafters.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
MMO mechanics need to be simple , but give out difference results . It kind of wrong for you to compare "crafting mechanic" to chess game (PVP mechanic) , i rather compare it to Puzzle (solve mechanic) .
What important for crafting is consume and product . Instead of focus on "making weapon" i rather focus on consume support buff like cooking (food) , alchemy (potion) , enchant (charm) ect ...
As for "equipment craft" (armor , weapon) should focus on time limited cosmetic items instead of stats item . To avoid create trash items
Now the population is so low everyone just does it on their own but 13 years later no one has learned it all still. I don't think anyone has mastered even half.
I have been contemplating the resource gathering system more and have decided to attempt a more visual representation of three distinct systems. I want to poll everyone's opinion on which one seems more entertaining from three different perspectives: a gatherer, a crafter, and a player. Each of these systems is somewhat analogous to existing or past MMORPG design: 1) Tiered System (WoW, ESO and SWTOR), 2) Quality System, 3) Hybrid/Processing System.
Tiered-Node System
This system relies on resource tiers, each tier corresponds to a gameplay difficulty tier or level-bound location. The crafting with this type of system does not often implement any variation to the final product as a result of player decisions during the crafting process. Games that utilize this system include World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online. Whereas WoW does not provide the player much in the way of decision making, ESO has different appearances that can be applied to each tier of crafting, as well as unique attributes that can be attached. The appearance and attributes are flattened, whereas the resources themselves provide vertical progression.
Quality-Node System
The quality-node system adds an element of randomness to the gathering process. This means that gathering is analogous to gambling in that with each resource gathered there is a chance of great failure (low quality) and great success (high quality), but most resources will fall in between (mediocre quality). Games that utilize this system include Star Wars Galaxies and the Saga of Ryzom. In these systems the resources play a significant role in the economy of crafting and give resource gathers more bargaining power toward crafters. In many cases it also means that there are winners and losers in the crafting meta-game, with most of the wealthier crafters cornering the market on high quality resources. In the example I am illustrating that this system integrates player success and failure at each step of the crafting process in accordance with the OP’s original post. Keep in mind that the example also incorporates a tiered system, but that this system is not exclusively a tiered system.
Hybrid/Processing System
This system is a bit of both of the previous two and with its own unique application. It is also not as simplified or all-encompassing as the previous two systems. An example of this system might be Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, where the player gathers grafting materials but processing affects the end result quality/success, via a mini-game. However, I do not prefer Vanguard’s implementation, so in the following example I will provide my preferred implementation and see what your thoughts are. To illustrate my implementation and further explain the example, you must first take into account that the majority of metal that we use in the world is an alloy or a combination of metals. This is primarily because we mix different materials until we obtain desired properties, but historically it was the result of different deposits of material in ore and an imperfect extraction process. The example table does not fully express the means in which Copper is extracted from the ore, or tell you that there are differing types of copper ore, so I will explain that here. Furthermore there are also different materials that can be extracted from Chalcopyrite, such as iron. This all depends on the crafter extracting the metal and on the material itself. This system is perhaps most analogous to Star Wars Galaxies in the ore implementation, but differs in the starting quality and processing implementation. I left the quality numbers the same as the previous system so that it captures that this is a hybrid between the two systems. The major difference is in how easy it is to extract quality material from the natural ore, which is not expressed in the chart.
Take in mind that these three systems as illustrated in the tables are not the best way to express them, but the simplest way to compare them.Thanks for reading, if you made it this far.
I also agree with your other point on rare ores.
But UO didn't allow for mixing ores for alloys or different types of steel, etc. Same for gold that's mixed with different metals, copper and silver, etc., for different uses.
This could add a lot to game play and form the basis of special skill trees.
Steel is made by heating iron ore in carbon (charcoal).
Being fantasy/sci-fi worlds, there's things you can do. Like using different types of wood charcoal for different effect ranges of the qualities or steel (durability, damage, weight, sharpness).
And the same for other metals and alloys.
And again, since these are fantasy world (including sci-fi in a way), you could do the same with woods. Soaking wood in herbal waters, smoking the wood in types of fires, whatever.
But you want to limit the variation of affects (the bonus range). Too much, as you pointed out, gets messy and frustrating to play with.
As a classic example, UO's new system with all those numbers was so bad that new players quit in frustration. Only older players who loved the game in die-hard fashion spent the effort to understand it.
Simple basics, with detailed layers under that simplicity, seems like the way to go, to me.
Once upon a time....
And I feel that fast consumables should generally be rather simple to make since you need a lot of them and creating tons of the same thing gets rather boring if it is complex. When you make something complex that is fun if it is an item you are proud to make. A trail mix or health pot is not those things.
Making a powerful enchantment to something is certainly worth taking some work but my point is that everything isn't. Maybe you could make crafting something that the players craft a lot simpler after they done it a few times?
It seems wise to avoid stats for armor and weapons though, at least to some degree. A basic damage or armorvalue is fine but all the silly stat increases are better handled elsewhere and it does as you say drop the number of trashitems.
use A + B to create C (trash) then C+D to create item is ... bore , why don't just A+B+D = item ?
Materials must not be just materials item but consumable items . That's what i want to say , they must have another value aside from being materials
The reason you want complexity the first time you make something would be to gain crafting skill, it is certainly not a must for consumables since most MMOs have it simple. My point is just that if you want to crate a stack of MREs (meals ready to eat) having a complex system for each one is just incredible boring.
Another solution would be using a complex system but allow people to create a huge stack at the same time which keep the repetition down making the whole experience more fun.
As I said, anything the average players don't need much of (like enchanting a weapon) can be far more complex, at least if you want the good stuff.
The hard thing with crafting have always been keeping it fun. Games like EQ2 originally had a minigame for crafting but when you had to create 100 tin longswords to gain a little skill only to be able to create tin longswords (yeah, both of those were as useful as they sound) and so on that minigame became a huge pain bloody fast.
Other games have the opposite problem, crafting was always so fast and simple that it felt pretty useless and everyone with the tiniest interest maxed out their skills fast (like AoC at launch).
Another thing to consider is how much materials you need to create something and how easy they are to find. In said AoC I killed 50 mammoths to get 10 leather peices I used for a belt. It was fast and simple but it felt rather silly since those mamoths should be enough to make boots and belts for a huge army. As I see it, it is generally better to make most materials rarer but making it so you don't need so much of them.
Yes, it doesn't matter so much if cooking materials are easy to get since players need food constantly but you don't want to flood the market with mats either. And it certainly is more logical that you need plenty of iron ore to make a steel bar but only one or 2 bars to make a sword instead of having 2 ores equal a bar and needing 10 or 20 bars to make a sword. It has no huge impact on a game but it feels more logical.
I think its a solid system and agree with the processing over gathering principle when it comes to quality. But type of resource should of course be king, you can refine iron all you like, it won't hold up to mithril.
For example 100 iron 100 copper 100 wood to create a loot box type item that drop recipes . Player use the recipes to learn how to craft items . To level up recipes , you will need multiple same recipes .
The higher level of recipes , the stronger grade of same item will be create .
I don't like your wording though, "loot box" is something that makes most of us a bit nervous today.
- Crafters being known for what they are crafting. I want to people to go to person X for this material, and person Y for this material, and Person Z for this material.
For example:
1) All players can gather raw materials:
for example, you collect 10 iron ore.
for example, you collect 10 leather pieces.
Then you can specialize your character for making pure items: A person makes 5 bars of a certain quality. (1-100). This needs to be leveled up with passive and active skills. Another player does the same with leather. Hence, you have elite tanners and blacksmiths.
Then you have a person able to specialize in combining the pieces together to make a sword. That is your sword weapon crafter. This also needs to be leveled up with passive and active skills. The higher the quality the higher the bonuses are. But a 40 quality may give +2% while a 90 quality would give +4% mainly. So the difference isn't that great.
I'd also have the same thing for the tools (anvil, smelter, etc).
so if you wanted to the top-top items. Basically, you'd collect the highest and best materials from many different crafters and take it to the top sword crafter for example. But then there will be other crafters as well for all the other types of weapons.
You could add enchantments, slot making, salves, poisons, etc. The goal is, if you want to be someone in the world. You'd be known for making the highest quality leathers or iron bars or copper bars or sword handles, or shields or certain enchantments. So you could make money by selling the mats or being the person who focuses on making the final product.
I'd have every weapon able to have 3 enchantments.
With every patch, you increase the different types of enchantments or mods for the items and what not.
In addition, i'd allow a mechanic for bases and sieges that you can higher NPC's to serve as a garrison. You have to stock the garrison. So every item you make the garrison will always do the same dmg or defense. This way, if you make a bunch of crappy swords to level up your skill, you don't just vendor it. You can sell it on the open market for cheap. As these swords will be the same as the top quality in the hands of the garrison. I'd also allow for a few champions to be hired for the NPC's. This is where the quality on the crafted items would matter. But the garrison is sort of like the nameless trash mobs you see in games.
I always hated crafting a bunch of crap just to level up to craft more crap just to reach the top tier of crafting which is somewhat useful perhaps. This way, all crafting is meaningful and you could have many people known for their crafting abilities. You could have guilds made of just crafters.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.