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Developer seems frustrated that publishers don't understand CoE's appeal

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  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 495
    Sovrath said:
    Dvora said:
    In this day and age I'm not sure why they even need publishers any more.  Rent some servers and turn them on.  Don't sell boxes in stores... or worst case... steam.
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's about advertising. Didn't we have a discussion at some point where it was revealed that advertising budgets for these games are huge. I'm thinking the publishers take up that slack but of course they want to make that back and then some.
    I don't remember hardly any advertising for mmo's in general.  Generally what there is is on sites like this, IGN etc and free press at that.  Gamers know where to go to find games.
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    Tiller said:
    Maybe get rid of the stupid spark BS and just make it a subscription pay per month type game.
    So you would rather pay $10-$20 per month, rather than $30 for a minimum of three months, to a maximum of a year? Seems to me SBS is considering the better deal for the consumer. 
    yes, I'd pay 15 dollars a month. Why not let that be an option? You can have those who pay 30 dollars for up to a year. Or you can have those who pay 15 a month.

    Dunno why companies never give options for their payment system. Its either buy to play, pay to play, free to play...very rarely anywhere inbetween.

    Why not give options? ESO is buy to play, but you can pay per month and get some benefits out of it. But otherwise you can also pay for DLC separately and never pay monthly. LOTRO is sorta the same, and 100% free if you want to grind for a long time. But its rare to find an MMO where you have a choice of how to pay for stuff.

    Dunno why its all or nothing. Like, why can't a game offer a variety of ways to pay?
    I am an ESO player as well, it is one of the few games I backed since beta. I agree I like the options that they have provided for players in their theme park setting. However, I really like SBSs business platform as well and recognized that it is a totally different style if game.

    In CoE you are never charged for new content and instead of having a cash shop everything you want can be acquired in-game from other players, resulting in no additional costs to play with everything you want. 

    I think some are uncomfortable with it because it is new and totally different than anything else out there. Yet in contrast, the biggest complaint in the gaming communities these days are players are bored with what is out there and want something new, something different. It is a catch 22.

    I suspect the reason we do have such a large active community this early in development and so many have pledged to support CoE is because we want to see this game come to fruition for all its differences and uniqueness. Sure it is not going to be for everyone, but what game is? 

    I can assure you after being part of the community for almost two years now, that this is exactly the game we want to play and the way we want to be treated by the developers. To be honest I would be very disappointed if they changed their business model now because it is one of the features I liked the most. The set up of other games out there is a cash grab when it really comes down to it and CoE doesn't feel that way to me. 
  • BLNXBLNX Member UncommonPosts: 93

    In CoE you are never charged for new content and instead of having a cash shop everything you want can be acquired in-game from other players, resulting in no additional costs to play with everything you want. 

    I think some are uncomfortable with it because it is new and totally different than anything else out there. 

    This rings false to me, only because since the game isn't actually released yet, we don't know if they will charge for future content (they can claim not to, but in the end if charging for content saved the game, I would believe they would attempt it). The same goes for a cash shop, they can say they will not, but if you remember ESO's launch, it changed to stay alive and keep players happy. Quote from an article:

    There won't be anything like bonus points, but we'll have a shop to buy kind of fun stuff and services too, like name changes and things like that."
    Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/08/the-elder-scrolls-online-to-include-real-money-shop-atop-subscription/

    When Tamriel Unlimited came out, they changed their model and started giving away "bonus" crowns if you subscribed. The point I'm making is, companies can promise anything and can change or break their promise. You're speaking as if the game is out now and currently following these practices successfully. They are not, and in the end they may have to change the model.

    In the end, there's no product yet, so if people are uncomfortable with it, or if publishers are uncomfortable with it, it's only SBS's fault. @TheScavenger is talking about a legitimate issue preventing them from playing the game, and whether that idea is or is not new or innovative, it means this person doesn't want to play based on that model.
    Phry
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,522
    I find it hard to imagine the game surviving very long on a "$30 per player per year" business model.  You'd need a LOT of subscribers to keep the game afloat if they're only paying $30 per year.

    ....oh wait, Caspien thinks he'll get like, a million, right?  That explains that, I suppose.
    BLNXSlapshot1188JamesGoblin
  • mystichazemystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378
    edited December 2017
    BLNX said:

    In CoE you are never charged for new content and instead of having a cash shop everything you want can be acquired in-game from other players, resulting in no additional costs to play with everything you want. 

    I think some are uncomfortable with it because it is new and totally different than anything else out there. 

    This rings false to me, only because since the game isn't actually released yet, we don't know if they will charge for future content (they can claim not to, but in the end if charging for content saved the game, I would believe they would attempt it). The same goes for a cash shop, they can say they will not, but if you remember ESO's launch, it changed to stay alive and keep players happy. Quote from an article:

    There won't be anything like bonus points, but we'll have a shop to buy kind of fun stuff and services too, like name changes and things like that."
    Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/08/the-elder-scrolls-online-to-include-real-money-shop-atop-subscription/

    When Tamriel Unlimited came out, they changed their model and started giving away "bonus" crowns if you subscribed. The point I'm making is, companies can promise anything and can change or break their promise. You're speaking as if the game is out now and currently following these practices successfully. They are not, and in the end they may have to change the model.

    In the end, there's no product yet, so if people are uncomfortable with it, or if publishers are uncomfortable with it, it's only SBS's fault. @TheScavenger is talking about a legitimate issue preventing them from playing the game, and whether that idea is or is not new or innovative, it means this person doesn't want to play based on that model.
    You have a valid point, it could change, none of us are able to foresee the future. Many things are expected to change between Development and Launch in any game. If it does, we will deal with that when the time comes. I say we because I know for a fact that SBS would include the community in a decision like that. In truth, and from what I have seen in the forums over the last couple of years, is that it really wouldn't bother the community if some sort of shop was to be implemented in the future, just as it really didn't bother ESO community.

    However, we are talking about now and this amongst other thing is what is currently preventing SBS from choosing an investor. As Caspain stated in the video I provided, they don't want to be forced to change their vision just to make themselves or someone else rich. I personally think it says a lot about SBS, that they are sticking to their guns and not wanting to drain our wallets just so we can play their game. 

    If I were to look at it from a Producer or Investors point of view, of course, I would want it to be based on these other business models because they are going to make me rich. They are definitely cash grabs. But to look at it from a consumer point of view it is a very good deal and the fact that SBS doesn't want to budge on it tells me they are looking out for their community. 

    Now you might argue that they are trying to drain our wallets now, but my counter to that would be it is our choice if we want to help finance the game or not. With over 5000 players on Discord alone, and I believe the last I heard we have over 150,000 players invested through pledges. That is a very large demographic wishing to see this game come to life don't you think?

    Any crowd-funded game is a risk, but it is up to the individual if they want to take it or not. 

    KyleranCostanius
  • OrangeBoyOrangeBoy Member UncommonPosts: 167

    "they would never do (insert cash grab concept) that to us"

    how do you know that?

    "because they said so"

    even when they've changed plans and are including their own version of a cash shop before the game is out just like every other cash grab MMO out there?

    "yes"


    Confirmation bias is the norm for the MMO industry. And to think these guys are over the age of 21


    Slapshot1188kruler
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069
    edited December 2017

     
    With over 5000 players on Discord alone, and I believe the last I heard we have over 150,000 players invested through pledges. That is a very large demographic wishing to see this game come to life don't you think?

    150,000 pledged players?  LOL... come on... just use common sense.  150,000 players pledged at the lowest level is almost $7,000,000.  We know that many of the folks pledging have gone far more than $45... some have spent tens of thousands.  Remember all the $10 make your village better tokens?  The $10 make your guild better tokens? The $10 for each vote tokens?  The sale of their Exposition Points? The sale of their upgrades? The buy your surname sale? All the Kings, Counts, Dukes, Barons?

    Please show me something to support your statement that they have 150,000 pledged and invested players because I simply do not believe it.  Not even close.

    PS: Here is some simple math to prove how ludicrous your statement is.

    They initially raised $1,361,435 through 10,752 Kickstarter pledges.
    They now have $3,435,025 total raised
    That means $2,073,590 post Kickstarter

    If you take the absolute best case scenario and the only thing they sold was the lowest pledge and existing pledges spent no additional money, and nobody bought ANYTHING else... the absolute most they could have would be another 46k members.   

    We all know that the above is not possible.  I would say they would be lucky to have 25,000 to 30,000 total which would be around $115 total average pledge.   I'd wager it's even lower.

    So please do provide support for the 150,000 players invested through pledges because I'm pretty confident that's just more "fake news" but it would explain why you wouldn't question his expectations for 1,000,000 or more players...
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    JamesGoblinKyleranYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069
    edited December 2017
    OrangeBoy said:

    "they would never do (insert cash grab concept) that to us"

    how do you know that?

    "because they said so"

    even when they've changed plans and are including their own version of a cash shop before the game is out just like every other cash grab MMO out there?

    "yes"


    Confirmation bias is the norm for the MMO industry. And to think these guys are over the age of 21


    You mean like these?

    Or these :

    Profession Kits: 100 EP ea.
    These kits provide the starting equipment, tools, and patterns or techniques necessary to begin your occupation as a crafter, gatherer, explorer, or champion. (ex. Smithy kit, Carpenter Kit, Miner Kit, Soldier Kit, etc...) If the game supports a profession, chances are good there will be a kit available to help you get started. Individual items value at 20-40 EP.

    Defense Kits: 325 EP
    These kits are designed to add a small number of defenses to a settlement in the form of a large amount of fencing and a couple of lookout towers. These are sufficient for basic defense of inner settlements, but not for baronies. Fencing is generally around 10 EP for 32m of fencing, plus 25-50 EP for the lookout towers.

    Technology Kits: 5,000 EP
    Each biome has a specific set of resources, and specific needs. However, within each biome there is often more than one way to solve a problem and the technology kits offer the additional of universities and schools to help foster learning in specific areas, as well as the introduction of specific technologies into the kingdom which may help solve problems in new ways. Technology kits will include the buildings for schools, as well as the patterns and techniques for advanced technology. Individual EP ranges from several hundreds to a thousand for the colleges and universities, to 100+ EP for the patterns and techniques, depending on level of advancement.

    Military Kits: 10,000 EP
    The military kit includes defensive structures such as ramparts and castles, as well as siege equipment such as trebuchet, catapults, etc. Individual items range from several hundred to several thousand EP.
    • Resource Stockpile: < 10 EP for a stack
    • Crafting Materials: < 25 EP for a stack
    • Contracts: < 25 EP for a stack
    • Patterns & Techniques: < 50 EP
    • Blueprints: < 100 EP
    • Tools: < 10 EP per tool
    • Containers: < 25 EP
    • Crafting Stations: < 50 EP
    • Equipment (clothing, armor, weapons): < 75 EP per item
    • Livestock / Bee hives: < 50 EP for a small stock
    • Pets: < 50 EP for a single trained pet
    • Mounts: < 100 EP for a single mount
    • Transportation: < 100 EP
    • Caravan Wagon: < 200 EP
    • Siege Equipment: < 250 EP
    • Crops: < 100 EP for a field
    • Plants & Trees: < 150 EP for a set of saplings
    • Land: 100 EP+
    • Furnished buildings: 200 EP+
    • Fences & Walls: 10 EP / 32m
    • Roads: 25 EP / 32m
    • Schools & Academies: 750 EP+
    • Cathedrals & Shrines: 1000 EP+
    -----------------------------
    But wait!!! There's more!!!
    -----------------------------

    Quality level

    The prices for the above kits are set such that each community member can customize their package with the EP that was included with their package. However, that's by no means the extent of the customization that can be done. The contents of all the above kits are of what one would consider standard or common quality. Players are free to purchase additional items a la carte which will be of higher quality. In general, we follow a tiered approach as follows:

    • Common: 1x
    • Uncommon: 2x
    • Rare: 5x
    • Treasured: 20x
    • Legendary: 100x

    This means that to determine an approximate price of a rare equivalent of a common item, one can multiply the common item by 5. So, for example, a common building that costs approximately 100 EP would cost approximately 500 EP. Similarly, if fencing costs about 10 EP for 32m, it might cost 1,000 EP for 32m for the best available stone rampart.


    ShaighPhryYashaXOrangeBoy

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • krulerkruler Member UncommonPosts: 589
    OrangeBoy said:

    "they would never do (insert cash grab concept) that to us"

    how do you know that?

    "because they said so"

    even when they've changed plans and are including their own version of a cash shop before the game is out just like every other cash grab MMO out there?

    "yes"


    Confirmation bias is the norm for the MMO industry. And to think these guys are over the age of 21


    You mean like these?

    Or these :

    Profession Kits: 100 EP ea.
    These kits provide the starting equipment, tools, and patterns or techniques necessary to begin your occupation as a crafter, gatherer, explorer, or champion. (ex. Smithy kit, Carpenter Kit, Miner Kit, Soldier Kit, etc...) If the game supports a profession, chances are good there will be a kit available to help you get started. Individual items value at 20-40 EP.

    Defense Kits: 325 EP
    These kits are designed to add a small number of defenses to a settlement in the form of a large amount of fencing and a couple of lookout towers. These are sufficient for basic defense of inner settlements, but not for baronies. Fencing is generally around 10 EP for 32m of fencing, plus 25-50 EP for the lookout towers.

    Technology Kits: 5,000 EP
    Each biome has a specific set of resources, and specific needs. However, within each biome there is often more than one way to solve a problem and the technology kits offer the additional of universities and schools to help foster learning in specific areas, as well as the introduction of specific technologies into the kingdom which may help solve problems in new ways. Technology kits will include the buildings for schools, as well as the patterns and techniques for advanced technology. Individual EP ranges from several hundreds to a thousand for the colleges and universities, to 100+ EP for the patterns and techniques, depending on level of advancement.

    Military Kits: 10,000 EP
    The military kit includes defensive structures such as ramparts and castles, as well as siege equipment such as trebuchet, catapults, etc. Individual items range from several hundred to several thousand EP.
    • Resource Stockpile: < 10 EP for a stack
    • Crafting Materials: < 25 EP for a stack
    • Contracts: < 25 EP for a stack
    • Patterns & Techniques: < 50 EP
    • Blueprints: < 100 EP
    • Tools: < 10 EP per tool
    • Containers: < 25 EP
    • Crafting Stations: < 50 EP
    • Equipment (clothing, armor, weapons): < 75 EP per item
    • Livestock / Bee hives: < 50 EP for a small stock
    • Pets: < 50 EP for a single trained pet
    • Mounts: < 100 EP for a single mount
    • Transportation: < 100 EP
    • Caravan Wagon: < 200 EP
    • Siege Equipment: < 250 EP
    • Crops: < 100 EP for a field
    • Plants & Trees: < 150 EP for a set of saplings
    • Land: 100 EP+
    • Furnished buildings: 200 EP+
    • Fences & Walls: 10 EP / 32m
    • Roads: 25 EP / 32m
    • Schools & Academies: 750 EP+
    • Cathedrals & Shrines: 1000 EP+
    -----------------------------
    But wait!!! There's more!!!
    -----------------------------

    Quality level

    The prices for the above kits are set such that each community member can customize their package with the EP that was included with their package. However, that's by no means the extent of the customization that can be done. The contents of all the above kits are of what one would consider standard or common quality. Players are free to purchase additional items a la carte which will be of higher quality. In general, we follow a tiered approach as follows:

    • Common: 1x
    • Uncommon: 2x
    • Rare: 5x
    • Treasured: 20x
    • Legendary: 100x

    This means that to determine an approximate price of a rare equivalent of a common item, one can multiply the common item by 5. So, for example, a common building that costs approximately 100 EP would cost approximately 500 EP. Similarly, if fencing costs about 10 EP for 32m, it might cost 1,000 EP for 32m for the best available stone rampart.



    That is looking pretty awful, well glad I didn't hitch my horse to this wagon, the wagon being 10,000 Ep and a kidney and maybe a left nut if I wanted the wagon to be painted.
    Phry

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,994
    I still think the real problem is they refuse to go full monty and embrace the cash shop concept.

    To an outside investor it must he baffling why a team would have such a robust micro and macro transaction model pre-launch but who plan to shut it all down post launch and try to survive on minimal revenue per customer. 

    Maximizing revenue per customer for as long as you can is the name of the game, at least if you understand how business works. 




    YashaXMendelgenaknosc

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    Kyleran said:
    I still think the real problem is they refuse to go full monty and embrace the cash shop concept.

    To an outside investor it must he baffling why a team would have such a robust micro and macro transaction model pre-launch but who plan to shut it all down post launch and try to survive on minimal revenue per customer. 

    Maximizing revenue per customer for as long as you can is the name of the game, at least if you understand how business works. 




    Not that I am accusing anyone of anything, but the whole cash-shop pre-launch and nada post-launch is in lines of "I'm not a smoker, I can quit anytime, for instance today alone I did quit about 4 times already!" 

    Every single MMO will suffer post-launch-stress-no-order (yeah I've invented this term, and shut up it makes total sense). So you're already in cash-shop withdrawal state, and you're losing customers, you already had put +5 years and all your life's savings into this stupid game, and you're telling me that you are strong enough to stay clear of micro/macro-transactions? 

    It doesn't matter what they are saying now, what matters is what they have to do to survive. 
    PhryMadFrenchieKyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
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  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,713

    And the "hard questions" interviewer follows up by validating it with "Yeah.. I think that's a very valid and very important point to make" instead of asking him to list how many MMORPGs actually have 1M+ paying customers today.


    My favorite MMO in the last years has been GW2 which is doing well where "well" in numbers means about 300k players.

    The idea about CoE getting even 10% of that is absurd.
    YashaXKyleran
    Harbinger of Fools
  • Erinak1Erinak1 Member UncommonPosts: 154
    edited December 2017
    Dakeru said:

    And the "hard questions" interviewer follows up by validating it with "Yeah.. I think that's a very valid and very important point to make" instead of asking him to list how many MMORPGs actually have 1M+ paying customers today.


    My favorite MMO in the last years has been GW2 which is doing well where "well" in numbers means about 300k players.

    The idea about CoE getting even 10% of that is absurd.
    Dakeru said:

    And the "hard questions" interviewer follows up by validating it with "Yeah.. I think that's a very valid and very important point to make" instead of asking him to list how many MMORPGs actually have 1M+ paying customers today.


    My favorite MMO in the last years has been GW2 which is doing well where "well" in numbers means about 300k players.

    The idea about CoE getting even 10% of that is absurd.
    That is the crux of the problem. I think CoE will do well to begin with if they choose a wise point to have the official release but ultimately, with or without a publisher, as soon as one of the forefront players in the mmo scene such as WoW, FFXIV, ESO ect release an expansion, I just don't think they'll be able to contend. Ultimately a publisher is a business just like a games studio and they shouldn't be expected to go out on a limb to prop up a games studio anymore than the games studio should go out on a limb to prop up a new publishing house. I think the problem he has isn't that they don't understand - It is that they are both looking at the problem from different angles. 
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    edited December 2017
    Wait! Did he say several hundred thousand players per server?
    Do I look stupid to you?
    Post edited by GeezerGamer on
    MadFrenchieKyleranIselin
  • BLNXBLNX Member UncommonPosts: 93
    edited December 2017


    Dakeru said:
    My favorite MMO in the last years has been GW2 which is doing well where "well" in numbers means about 300k players.

    The idea about CoE getting even 10% of that is absurd.

    Since most MMOs don't really release hard figures, and if they do it's a technical number (over 1 million accounts on a F2P game doesn't mean they are all active, or not a bot). It's always been my understanding though that, apart from WoW of course, most MMOs never really stay above a million active players more than a few months after initial release.

    This is all speculation though since I assume no one here is on the staff? The amount of actual pledges are likely only known by people who aren't going to tell, at least without some sort of technicality.

    I agree though, if we take other Kickstarter funded MMOs and compare, 150k people still interested after a year would be a stretch. This doesn't count Star Citizen, but even if it did just look at the revenue disparity between the two and know they aren't comparable.

    EDIT- Phone autocorrected a word.
    Post edited by BLNX on
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    The very context of this thread continues to support my ongoing opinion that this project is doomed.
    Slapshot1188NildenKyleran
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,078
    @Slapshot, we all know your opinion already, you have made it quite clear. *Shrugs* However, I didn't post for your benefit, but rather for others that might not be familiar with CoE
    Regardless of what Slapshot thinks or the actual financial place this game is in, this game will not get 1 million players.

    Just look across the board at games that are not World of Warcraft, unless they are huge heavy hitters, Star Wars the Old Republic, World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, they seem to settle (if they are "successful", at around 200/250/300k ish players.

    Just look at the Secret World! At one point Funcom announced that it wasn't doing well as they only had 300k players. My first thought was "who the heck thought it would gather more players?" That's over 50k more players than I thought it would get.

    Maybe the biggest issue with developers is that they are so disconnected from the reality of their industry that every project they work on will "of course" have 1 million plus players.

    If I was inclined to give money to this project (which I didn't given my reasons earlier in this thread) and I heard from him (or anyone on the project) that they expected 1 million plus players, given what was/is shown, that would be a huge red flag.

    If this project is successful I say 400 k max IF they fulfill all their goals and IF they make the game look far more polished than it is and that's ONLY because there are herds of MMORPG players who are dying to try something out and will do so out of desperation.

    And that's not just this game, goes same for Pantheon though Pantheon might gather a bit more.

    1 million? I seriously hope that those who put together the business plan are not relying on that. There is no basis for those numbers given this type of project, given that its an indy project with an unproven team.
    MendelKyleranIselin



  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    No shit, they crowdfunded for a reason.  If they failed to raise the funds they need via crowdfunding then they failed to set their real goal which means they just failed at trying to launch this product.  
    Nilden
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Publishers are asshat morons who dont know a good game when they see one so I am not sure why this is a surprise

    Elite Dangerous had the same problem

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    SEANMCAD said:
    Publishers are asshat morons who dont know a good game when they see one so I am not sure why this is a surprise

    Elite Dangerous had the same problem
    The whole point of crowdfunding is to not be beholden to anyone.  Sounds like they are shitty devs.
    Nilden
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    Publishers are asshat morons who dont know a good game when they see one so I am not sure why this is a surprise

    Elite Dangerous had the same problem
    The whole point of crowdfunding is to not be beholden to anyone.  Sounds like they are shitty devs.
    maybe but the OP is a quote that is 100% related to finding publishers. So it seems obfuscation is going on here

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,522
    edited December 2017
    SEANMCAD said:
    Publishers are asshat morons who dont know a good game when they see one so I am not sure why this is a surprise

    In this case, considering what CoE is promising for its budget, most rational people know there won't be any actual game here to see in the first place.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,298
    Sovrath said:
    @Slapshot, we all know your opinion already, you have made it quite clear. *Shrugs* However, I didn't post for your benefit, but rather for others that might not be familiar with CoE
    Regardless of what Slapshot thinks or the actual financial place this game is in, this game will not get 1 million players.

    Just look across the board at games that are not World of Warcraft, unless they are huge heavy hitters, Star Wars the Old Republic, World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, they seem to settle (if they are "successful", at around 200/250/300k ish players.

    Just look at the Secret World! At one point Funcom announced that it wasn't doing well as they only had 300k players. My first thought was "who the heck thought it would gather more players?" That's over 50k more players than I thought it would get.

    Maybe the biggest issue with developers is that they are so disconnected from the reality of their industry that every project they work on will "of course" have 1 million plus players.

    If I was inclined to give money to this project (which I didn't given my reasons earlier in this thread) and I heard from him (or anyone on the project) that they expected 1 million plus players, given what was/is shown, that would be a huge red flag.

    If this project is successful I say 400 k max IF they fulfill all their goals and IF they make the game look far more polished than it is and that's ONLY because there are herds of MMORPG players who are dying to try something out and will do so out of desperation.

    And that's not just this game, goes same for Pantheon though Pantheon might gather a bit more.

    1 million? I seriously hope that those who put together the business plan are not relying on that. There is no basis for those numbers given this type of project, given that its an indy project with an unproven team.
    We definitely seem to be experiencing a period when developers are prone to wishful thinking as opposed to realistic expectations.  There seems to me to be a 'field of dreams' thing going on here.  Instead of determining a market base, there's an awful lot of 'build it and players will show up' mentality going on.  Not knowing the consumer is dangerous for a business at the best of times, but when all the businesses serving a specific market segment adopt this philosophy, it really brings up questions about the long-term future of that market segment (in this case, MMORPGs).
    BLNX

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Publishers are asshat morons who dont know a good game when they see one so I am not sure why this is a surprise

    Elite Dangerous had the same problem
    The whole point of crowdfunding is to not be beholden to anyone.  Sounds like they are shitty devs.
    maybe but the OP is a quote that is 100% related to finding publishers. So it seems obfuscation is going on here
    Allow me to retract my statement,  they very well may be great devs.....their planning is definitely piss poor though lol.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited December 2017
    Tiamat64 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Publishers are asshat morons who dont know a good game when they see one so I am not sure why this is a surprise

    To be fair to the publishers, there isn't any actual game here for them to see in the first place.
    ok let me try this

    what they said in the quote is pretty much exactly what the developer of Elite Dangerous said, its the same thing the developer of Wasteland 2 said as well. Tow VERY successful games that got crowd funding

    Publishers do not want to publish what are good games. 
    Now this developer being good or not good or not able to get crowdfunding is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT conversation from the OPs quote.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

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