Pvp in general is so badly done that NOBODY has come close in a rpg setting.I give the best pvp a 1/10 for quality rpg pvp,that is how far away they are from doing it right and well.
I can start with the core basics,most of these games utilize 3 realms,to me that is laughable,not worth my time d/ling the game.So with a lack of effort right out of the gate why would i bother with any of these pvp rpg's ? I am not going to get into how they are presented/implemented ,lack of plausible realism lack of immersion etc etc often removing one's self from the world to enter some instance mode.
Bottom line they are just done super bad,maybe another 20 years we might see one worth pvp'ing in.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.
I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR. I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.
RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.
I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.
Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.
That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like. Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater. I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet. Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.
MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.
There are more costs.. but I don't think that's a factor in this situation. There isn't a publisher like EA who is forcing their hand.. it's crowdfunded and from what I can tell they have more money than they know what to do with... so maybe it's more of a function of time? I don't know, but I would like them to be more ambitious with their vision.. but that's just me.
I would just like to point out that the mistakes that led to the downfall of DAOC were done before EA got a hold of Mythic.
DAOC is the best game I have ever played. But I also remember how much frustration it was with the expansions. Some classes became ridicolous overpowered, some items became overpowered and almost all had a buff bot. Still, the realm pride, the roaming 8 man Groups, the chance to take out the masses with a few if the masses played stupid was so cool. And the realmpoint system with realmskills was so fun.
Warhammer tried but they did the same mistake as all games do nowadays. They rewarded you for Everything. Some night I was so pissed off because we were roaming one zone taking all the objectives from the enemies while they were roaming the other zone taking all the objectives from us. And then we Went to the other zone and they Went to the zone we were in. We didn't fight each other. We fought npcs and doors because we got rewarded for that.
In DAOC you took an enemy fort because you knew they would try to take it back. And when they did you got realm Points by killing the enemies. That is how you increased in realm level. Not by taking empty forts. When you took a fort you knew the enemies would come. Most people defended because they wanted Darkness Falls. Even crafters and bad PVPers wanted to gather the army because they wanted Darkness falls. If you wanted to get realm Points you were out in the frontier. Warhammer had scenarios. Fun, but Another mistake. Because that was a quicker way to increase in realm level than being out there defending and attacking in the frontier.
Another mistake Warhammer did was to make it a two realm game. DAOC had Three factions and that was great.
I would love a DAOC 2 and like some have said in this thread already, the classes were fun. But I doubt a game like that would be just as fun as DAOC because I Think we as a game Community have changed. We demand instant action and rewards. Some Days I could run around in the frontier all alone not picking up a single Realm Point. Others I could get a whole bunch by just fighting at the wall in Hibernia. Fun times!
Online games are by nature degenerate. As a good game will get a sequel or expansion within a few years, and these are made for money, not ideals, the genre falls inevitably as businesses fight each other for money. And one business will learn that the most money comes from the masses, and will make a game claiming that it heals all the old troubles of these games. And all the masses will play it. But in truth it has removed the challenge and complexity of the game. The moral is that discerning, older men and the masses, being here youth and unlearned folk, are not alike, and online games will at last favor the masses such, as these older men can no longer bear them. Today men can find no escape in online games, cause these games are in the heart of the schools, and everywhere else that fantasy is least likely.
The alarm has now been ringing for twelve years about, but some have yet to awaken. These RPGs now are poor excuses for anything. There are no online games for men. Online gaming today is a toy industry. There yet are a few old games, but few old players. And so it is moot.
This reminds me that I looked at League of Legends again a week ago after a long hiatus. Not exactly an old game (2008 about, I think), but had become a calming symbol of sameness in a field of unnecessary and unsettling change. Turns out that, after nine years of being, they have removed runes and masteries from the game, and said they are too complicated. Now someone may well ask why it took the company with one of the most successful game on the Internet nine years to learn that a share of their game was too complicated, but I rather deleted the game (which I had but installed) and gave it up for lost. I will be honest, knowing what kind of people use the Internet today, online games for me have overstepped mere badness, and become truly "creepy", in every sense of that modern word. It is hard not to read political undertones and the forecoming doom of civilization into the fact that even the very lowest men of the world now are spending their lives in apathy bashing away at buttons. And the Internet of my youth is unrecognizable today, and has been overcome by the lowest of men.
By the way, I played Warhammer Online. If that game was like DAoC, heaven help DAoC. It was highly bad. A combination of killing paper doll players, seeing them arise again in a graveyard a few feet away, and otherwise joining them to flail at great, impotent monsters, for "World Quests". Player killing without role-playing or consequences for death is near pointless. The best that I have seen this done was in Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin in World of Warcraft, but I did not play DAoC.
People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.
I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR. I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.
RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.
I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.
Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.
That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like. Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater. I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet. Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.
MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.
There are more costs.. but I don't think that's a factor in this situation. There isn't a publisher like EA who is forcing their hand.. it's crowdfunded and from what I can tell they have more money than they know what to do with... so maybe it's more of a function of time? I don't know, but I would like them to be more ambitious with their vision.. but that's just me.
I would just like to point out that the mistakes that led to the downfall of DAOC were done before EA got a hold of Mythic.
I get that, I was just using EA as a general statement to represent how a publisher can change the game.
Comments
I can start with the core basics,most of these games utilize 3 realms,to me that is laughable,not worth my time d/ling the game.So with a lack of effort right out of the gate why would i bother with any of these pvp rpg's ?
I am not going to get into how they are presented/implemented ,lack of plausible realism lack of immersion etc etc often removing one's self from the world to enter some instance mode.
Bottom line they are just done super bad,maybe another 20 years we might see one worth pvp'ing in.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Warhammer tried but they did the same mistake as all games do nowadays. They rewarded you for Everything. Some night I was so pissed off because we were roaming one zone taking all the objectives from the enemies while they were roaming the other zone taking all the objectives from us. And then we Went to the other zone and they Went to the zone we were in. We didn't fight each other. We fought npcs and doors because we got rewarded for that.
In DAOC you took an enemy fort because you knew they would try to take it back. And when they did you got realm Points by killing the enemies. That is how you increased in realm level. Not by taking empty forts. When you took a fort you knew the enemies would come. Most people defended because they wanted Darkness Falls. Even crafters and bad PVPers wanted to gather the army because they wanted Darkness falls. If you wanted to get realm Points you were out in the frontier. Warhammer had scenarios. Fun, but Another mistake. Because that was a quicker way to increase in realm level than being out there defending and attacking in the frontier.
Another mistake Warhammer did was to make it a two realm game. DAOC had Three factions and that was great.
I would love a DAOC 2 and like some have said in this thread already, the classes were fun. But I doubt a game like that would be just as fun as DAOC because I Think we as a game Community have changed. We demand instant action and rewards. Some Days I could run around in the frontier all alone not picking up a single Realm Point. Others I could get a whole bunch by just fighting at the wall in Hibernia. Fun times!
The alarm has now been ringing for twelve years about, but some have yet to awaken. These RPGs now are poor excuses for anything. There are no online games for men. Online gaming today is a toy industry. There yet are a few old games, but few old players. And so it is moot.
This reminds me that I looked at League of Legends again a week ago after a long hiatus. Not exactly an old game (2008 about, I think), but had become a calming symbol of sameness in a field of unnecessary and unsettling change. Turns out that, after nine years of being, they have removed runes and masteries from the game, and said they are too complicated. Now someone may well ask why it took the company with one of the most successful game on the Internet nine years to learn that a share of their game was too complicated, but I rather deleted the game (which I had but installed) and gave it up for lost. I will be honest, knowing what kind of people use the Internet today, online games for me have overstepped mere badness, and become truly "creepy", in every sense of that modern word. It is hard not to read political undertones and the forecoming doom of civilization into the fact that even the very lowest men of the world now are spending their lives in apathy bashing away at buttons. And the Internet of my youth is unrecognizable today, and has been overcome by the lowest of men.
By the way, I played Warhammer Online. If that game was like DAoC, heaven help DAoC. It was highly bad. A combination of killing paper doll players, seeing them arise again in a graveyard a few feet away, and otherwise joining them to flail at great, impotent monsters, for "World Quests". Player killing without role-playing or consequences for death is near pointless. The best that I have seen this done was in Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin in World of Warcraft, but I did not play DAoC.