Hawaii's Sean Quinlan on Loot Boxes - 'It's Best for the Industry to Self-Regulate' - General News

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Hawaii's Sean Quinlan on Loot Boxes - 'It's Best for the Industry to Self-Regulate' - General News

Rolling Stone / Glixel has a new interview with Hawaii's Sean Quinlan in which the issue of loot boxes and potential legislation are again at the forefront. The discussion centers on how Quinlan became aware of the situation (via Reddit) and what he believes the central issues are and what needs to be done to bring things under control. Each are considering legislative action, though both would prefer that the industry self-regulate.

Read the full story here

Thupli

Wow, that is a well thought out and phrased statement, couldn't agree more, though I don't think companies will regulate themselves.
Time to change the rating at a minimum.

Aeander

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Ozmodan

The problem that presents itself is that there are a lot of preteens and young teens getting caught up in this.  There have been many instances where the child has used money from an adult without permission.  I just do not see the industry self regulating.  It is probably a make or break decision for some of these less popular games and the big boys don't want to give up these profits. 

You can place some of the blame on parents who don't properly supervise their kids, but that does not alter the fact that these games are possibly inserting a gambling ethic into these kids.

Loke666

Aeander said:

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Íf people stopped buying the crap in enough numbers it would work. Of course we might as well wish for world peace.

Distopia

Loke666 said:

Aeander said:

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Íf people stopped buying the crap in enough numbers it would work. Of course we might as well wish for world peace.

Exactly, people of all types continue to buy in (addictions not withstanding)...  I'm just glad this guy seems to get it, this is something companies as well as consumers need to work out on their own. As well as parents need to parent (where kids come into play)...  Don't expect a \government to play the role of nanny to you or your child...

Distopia

Ozmodan said:

The problem that presents itself is that there are a lot of preteens and young teens getting caught up in this.  There have been many instances where the child has used money from an adult without permission.  I just do not see the industry self regulating.  It is probably a make or break decision for some of these less popular games and the big boys don't want to give up these profits. 

You can place some of the blame on parents who don't properly supervise their kids, but that does not alter the fact that these games are possibly inserting a gambling ethic into these kids.

That's like saying mystery eggs insert a gambling ethic into kids, because it's really no different. Get toys or slime, put a quarter in and find out....

TalulaRose

In the beginning it was just cosmetic items. Everyone was in an uproar and then they accepted nothing will change and moved on.

Then quality of life items started showing up and everyone was in an uproar, then gave up on that and accepted it.

Now items required to progress are included in item shops and gear that unbalances the game. Guess what, there was lots of gnashing of teeth but people accepted it.

Now you have loot boxes that give you a chance to win an item or keep trying. These use to be rng in games for no extra fee but the mmorpg community is accepting the new fee.

Now games are designed to be at a disadvantage if you don't use the store. And most people just say...whats a few dollars here and there. And then they accept it.

It was just little by little they chipped away and no self regulation will stop this. Only thing self regulation does is take away consumer rights.

We have an industry group for automobiles and most of their decisions has sided with the auto industry, no surprise since most of the people on it are from the auto companies. Most people never use them because they end up losing with no recourse because if you go with them they make you sign away any right to litigate the auto industry. Working as intended, limit any consumer rights.

SEANMCAD

I think in this specific case Free Market Principles are the way to go. 
In fact, I think if free market principles cant work in this case it cant work anywhere.

EDIT: well I say that but I forget EA was making boat loads of money on this idea...

GeezerGamer

Loke666 said:

Aeander said:

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Íf people stopped buying the crap in enough numbers it would work. Of course we might as well wish for world peace.

But they don't. And that's the problem. I think World Peace is actually a more reasonable expectation than self regulation by anyone. Consumers and producers alike.

Superman0X

Hmm... What a coincidence that we were just discussing a new industry organization to provide the guidance and regulation for issues like this. 

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/7254354/

Distopia

GeezerGamer said:

Loke666 said:

Aeander said:

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Íf people stopped buying the crap in enough numbers it would work. Of course we might as well wish for world peace.

But they don't. And that's the problem. I think World Peace is actually a more reasonable expectation than self regulation by anyone. Consumers and producers alike.

While that is genuinely humorous, I can't say I agree, it's quite easy to self regulate what you want to spend money on. 

It's also easy to find a different hobby, or type of game that you don't run into these monetary intrusions in. 

TalulaRose

Distopia said:

GeezerGamer said:

Loke666 said:

Aeander said:

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Íf people stopped buying the crap in enough numbers it would work. Of course we might as well wish for world peace.

But they don't. And that's the problem. I think World Peace is actually a more reasonable expectation than self regulation by anyone. Consumers and producers alike.

While that is genuinely humorous, I can't say I agree, it's quite easy to self regulate what you want to spend money on. 

It's also easy to find a different hobby, or type of game that you don't run into these monetary intrusions in. 

You should look at the debt levels carried by many. Why would people accept so much debt?

Because they have been conditioned to accept debt is good.

If it was as easy as you say then why has it reached the point where governments are taking a look?

Because its not as easy as lets just write a comment in a forum and lol.

Left unchecked addiction costs everyone.

Just look at the opioid crisis. Doctor's can just not prescribe them, people can decide to not to take them. Easy right, I typed it so it must be easy. But yet people are dropping like flies.

Distopia

TalulaRose said:

don't run into these monetary intrusions in. 

You should look at the debt levels carried by many. Why would people accept so much debt?

Because they have been conditioned to accept debt is good.

If it was as easy as you say then why has it reached the point where governments are taking a look?

Because its not as easy as lets just write a comment in a forum and lol.

Left unchecked addiction costs everyone.

Just look at the opioid crisis. Doctor's can just not prescribe them, people can decide to not to take them. Easy right, I typed it so it must be easy. But yet people are dropping like flies.

I'm a rather Liberal minded person, so keep that in mind when I say your heart is bleeding like a civ all over me. 

Stop sensationalizing ffs

SEANMCAD

So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.

An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person

TalulaRose

Distopia said:

TalulaRose said:

don't run into these monetary intrusions in. 

You should look at the debt levels carried by many. Why would people accept so much debt?

Because they have been conditioned to accept debt is good.

If it was as easy as you say then why has it reached the point where governments are taking a look?

Because its not as easy as lets just write a comment in a forum and lol.

Left unchecked addiction costs everyone.

Just look at the opioid crisis. Doctor's can just not prescribe them, people can decide to not to take them. Easy right, I typed it so it must be easy. But yet people are dropping like flies.

I'm a rather Liberal minded person, so keep that in mind when I say your heart is bleeding like a civ all over me. 

Stop sensationalizing ffs

Just used your logic and put some thought into it.

Not my fault your words failed and you put no thought into what you typed.

No worries, you can go back to your shallow thought patterns.

Distopia

TalulaRose said:

Just used your logic and put some thought into it.

Not my fault your words failed and you put no thought into what you typed.

No worries, you can go back to your shallow thought patterns.

Says the guy comparing addictions to Opoids, to digital consumerism... They're not even remotely the same thing.

Distopia

So wait people think an addiction to buying digital toys is the same as being addicted to a chemical based substance that causes violent reactions, even possible death from shock?

 A dopamine release is short lived and has little in terms of lasting effect on the body. That is not the case with opoids... 


Get a clue before you WTF a post... 

maskedweasel

Loke666 said:

Aeander said:

Self-regulation is a joke. The very people who have a financial stake in the thing being regulated should not be in charge of regulating that thing.

Íf people stopped buying the crap in enough numbers it would work. Of course we might as well wish for world peace.

Numbers in terms of how many purchase something doesn't matter in gaming.  The majority don't buy into loot boxes generally, for many games out there.

The majority of revenue comes from less than 10% of the playerbase in most cases based on studies.

It's mostly about inequality.  Those that can spend, do, and that skews everything towards those with more money.  

Aeander

SEANMCAD said:

So much is misunderstood about addiction and its so frustrating that how people will not listen to logic.

An addict can be addicted to TV!!!!! its not the substance that is addictive, its the person

Please be more intellectually honest. Addiction in itself is not inherently harmful. Harm comes from the behaviors that addiction might cause.

Someone addicted to tv is not harming themselves unless it comes at the cost of exercise or working a normal job. But we do not know if that person was already unwilling to exercise or work.

Someone addicted to say... Clash of Clans or Fire Emblem Heroes is effectively carrying a casino in their pocket. Instant gratification is a click away and the financial effects of this on oneself and one's family subtly add up. 

Albatroes

This whole thing is like a smoker being surprised when they find out about cancer. People engage in micro-transactions and get surprised when companies keep pushing. Companies wont self-regulate and consumers wont stop buying. Just look at EA. Even now after losing all that money, they're still trying to rationalize why Battlefront II got so much blowback since these things supposedly work so well for them in their sports sector. So yeah, your Battlefront 3 (if Disney lets them keep the license) will include a similar system for sure since they are still 'experimenting' and people will still buy it and QQ. Tears dont work if you still doing the same thing. Sometimes how you reach a point is more important than the point itself.

Distopia

Aeander said:

Please be more intellectually honest. Addiction in itself is not inherently harmful. Harm comes from the behaviors that addiction might cause.

Someone addicted to tv is not harming themselves unless it comes at the cost of exercise or working a normal job. But we do not know if that person was already unwilling to exercise or work.

Someone addicted to say... Clash of Clans or Fire Emblem Heroes is effectively carrying a casino in their pocket. Instant gratification is a click away and the financial effects of this on oneself and one's family subtly add up. 

Yes and that person could be easily helped, unlike real chemical based dependencies, there are plenty of positive replacements for such "addictions". People are forgetting many are simply addicted to games as a whole, regardless of any MT's involved, and plenty are deeply effected by it. Yet I see no one calling for a regulation on that...

Which I'd bet is because they themselves like games... Funny how that works isn't it... but since they don't like a loot box, well regulate that...

MadFrenchie

Distopia said:

Aeander said:

Please be more intellectually honest. Addiction in itself is not inherently harmful. Harm comes from the behaviors that addiction might cause.

Someone addicted to tv is not harming themselves unless it comes at the cost of exercise or working a normal job. But we do not know if that person was already unwilling to exercise or work.

Someone addicted to say... Clash of Clans or Fire Emblem Heroes is effectively carrying a casino in their pocket. Instant gratification is a click away and the financial effects of this on oneself and one's family subtly add up. 

Yes and that person could be easily helped, unlike real chemical based dependencies, there are plenty of positive replacements for such "addictions". People are forgetting many are simply addicted to games as a whole, regardless of any MT's involved, and plenty are deeply effected by it. Yet I see no one calling for a regulation on that...

Which I'd bet is because they themselves like games... Funny how that works isn't it... but since they don't like a loot box, well regulate that...

It's the loot boxes being used on top of predatory tactics pushing players to use them.

Thinking the industry can self-regulate on that is ignoring the current reality.

Distopia

MadFrenchie said:

Distopia said:

Yes and that person could be easily helped, unlike real chemical based dependencies, there are plenty of positive replacements for such "addictions". People are forgetting many are simply addicted to games as a whole, regardless of any MT's involved, and plenty are deeply effected by it. Yet I see no one calling for a regulation on that...

Which I'd bet is because they themselves like games... Funny how that works isn't it... but since they don't like a loot box, well regulate that...

It's the loot boxes being used on top of predatory tactics pushing players to use them.

Thinking the industry can self-regulate on that is ignoring the current reality.

What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence? And please don't come back with isolated cases, or opinion pieces in gaming mags formed from those isolated cases......

MadFrenchie

Distopia said:

MadFrenchie said:

Distopia said:

Aeander said:

Please be more intellectually honest. Addiction in itself is not inherently harmful. Harm comes from the behaviors that addiction might cause.

Someone addicted to tv is not harming themselves unless it comes at the cost of exercise or working a normal job. But we do not know if that person was already unwilling to exercise or work.

Someone addicted to say... Clash of Clans or Fire Emblem Heroes is effectively carrying a casino in their pocket. Instant gratification is a click away and the financial effects of this on oneself and one's family subtly add up. 

Yes and that person could be easily helped, unlike real chemical based dependencies, there are plenty of positive replacements for such "addictions". People are forgetting many are simply addicted to games as a whole, regardless of any MT's involved, and plenty are deeply effected by it. Yet I see no one calling for a regulation on that...

Which I'd bet is because they themselves like games... Funny how that works isn't it... but since they don't like a loot box, well regulate that...

It's the loot boxes being used on top of predatory tactics pushing players to use them.

Thinking the industry can self-regulate on that is ignoring the current reality.

What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?

That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.

Distopia

MadFrenchie said:

Distopia said:

What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?

That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.

So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?