The question was very simple. How any trolls can characterize it as dishonest is actually funny.
So once again, take your side issues to some other thread please.
The question is simply: do you like buying and opening loot boxes in games that have loot boxes for sale and if you do, why?
And thanks to @laxie, @Sovrath and others for honest answers.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So by "loot box" do we mean player storage (shared or not) as in, for example, the first guild wars?
Or do we mean an end-of-mission reward system as, again, in guild wars 1? I remember a bunch of us went to some special map that had to be accessed from somewhere in Kurzick lands. needed a scroll or something to get to said map. We went from area to area in this map, fighting a lot of hard bosses. At the end, a chest appered and each one of us click ed on it and got a random "green" weapon (in guild wars, greens are generally weapons with rather good stats, not obtainable by regular means). So is that a loot box?
This forum is broken. It is time to move to proboards, because they're broken.
My opinion is that loot boxes with cosmetic only benefits are fine. Let the whales spend their money and keep the game running. If that is the only monetization point in the game then I'd consider spending on them. but I generally prefer being able to directly buy what I want.
I bought a few lockboxes in two games, one time i was going to buy something anyway and said hmm, i have a chance to get something awesome, the other one cuz i could have gotten more money worth than before in entropia.
Either way, i was a fool and knew it. Life goes on. I don't like lootboxes as i think spending RL money on a game cheapens what you accomplish, but it is life. Ultimately, lootboxes are a sign of low class to me, so it impacts the way i feel about the game.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
My opinion is that loot boxes with cosmetic only benefits are fine. Let the whales spend their money and keep the game running. If that is the only monetization point in the game then I'd consider spending on them. but I generally prefer being able to directly buy what I want.
Marvel Heroes proved that formula doesn't work forever but look at WoW with btp + sub = 13 years.
Hello? Is that Planet Sean? Are you paying for each roll of the dice?
yes of course..
and its still not gambling unless something of monitary value is possible as a return, which it is not
Gambling definition taken from dictionary.com
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly
Hello? Is that Planet Sean? Are you paying for each roll of the dice?
yes of course..
and its still not gambling unless something of monitary value is possible as a return, which it is not
Gambling definition taken from dictionary.com
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly
"other stakes" and 2 don't need to be monetary.
I think it's safe to say SEAN has no idea what gambling is since he didn't include a picture of money with the dice.
This all ties back into the OP as well @Iselin the big answer being people want to gamble in video games. They want that big win just like hitting the jackpot in slots or beating the odds in roulette or poker.
If the player is paying money every time they roll those dice to try and win it big they are gambling.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Hello? Is that Planet Sean? Are you paying for each roll of the dice?
yes of course..
and its still not gambling unless something of monitary value is possible as a return, which it is not
Gambling definition taken from dictionary.com
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly
"other stakes" and 2 don't need to be monetary.
This would mean that any board game that has die rolls and "other stakes" like Monopoly would also be considered gambling.
Heck there would be a TON of stuff that would be gambling if "other stakes" being non-monetary would be taken literally.
Most board games and yes that includes Monopoly do have some form of gambling to them.
Not all gambling needs to be regulated.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Hello? Is that Planet Sean? Are you paying for each roll of the dice?
yes of course..
and its still not gambling unless something of monitary value is possible as a return, which it is not
Gambling definition taken from dictionary.com
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly
"other stakes" and 2 don't need to be monetary.
This would mean that any board game that has die rolls and "other stakes" like Monopoly would also be considered gambling.
Heck there would be a TON of stuff that would be gambling if "other stakes" being non-monetary would be taken literally.
Most board games and yes that includes Monopoly do have some form of gambling to them.
Not all gambling needs to be regulated.
Indeed, its the real cash being gambled here that is the issue, not the dice, the Monopoly money, or anything else.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
From Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
Its not my definition. Its in the English dictionary.
And your ticket analogy is, as always, full of shit. When you buy a ticket to a football game, you are paying to watch the football game. You are getting a guaranteed return - being able to watch.
You're right and you're not. I'm actually glad you broke this down, because I think that it's an interesting distinction.
Where do you put trading cards on this scale? See, what's problematic is that you've taken something that's quite acceptable today, which is paying money for RNG, and you've now called it gambling because a company is doing something with it that you don't like. So you take the negative stigma of gambling and attach it to this idea. The problem is that idea has existed for over a century and has never been called gambling before. So are we now going to make that distinction between regulated and unregulated? Like, "Hey, did you want to go to the casino and do some regulated gambling?" Come on!
See, the problem with actually identifying this activity as gambling is that it has MUCH more far-reaching impacts through a number of different industries. Not only trading cards, but what bout those contests where you buy a bag of chips or a soda for a chance to win an XBox? Unless that is the reason for the obesity pandemic in North America, but I don't think it is. No, there aren't people out there buying up thousands of bags of chips an hour to increase their chances of winning and XBox.
The problem is that your middle distinction is flawed.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG with guarantee of something in return = Mystery Box Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
As I've said in a few different threads, this isn't my distinction. Its in the English dictionary. Paying money for a chance at a return is gambling. It just is.
However, there is a legal distinction between general gambling and gambling that requires regulation. That legal distinction differs depending on what country you live in. For most, the legal distinction comes down to the return - if it is a monetary return then it requires regulation.
There are some places - like the Isle of Mann - where the return doesn't have to be monetary. So, paid-for-lootboxes are legally classified as gambling there.
It is important that we take a moment to examine why some types of gambling are regulated and why some aren't. Gambling becomes a problem when you repeat it regularly. Repeated gambling alters the way our brains work. I mean it physically changes our brain and fucks up our chemical balance, specifically the way dopamine functions. This physical change is harmful and leads to lots of other problems.
So, gambling with a monetary return is regulated for two primary reasons. The first is motivation. By providing a monetary return, gamblers are more motivated to continue gambling. The second is the reward. A big monetary payout provides a massive dump of dopamine into our systems and we feel great! We can look forwards to new things to buy, new holidays to take, debt to pay off. It takes the pressure off.
These two things combined (motivation + reward) are what drives people to become problem gamblers and is why it is regulated. It is also why other types of gambling are not regulated. A raffle, for example, is unlikely to motivate you much to participate, when you win you probably don't care all that much, plus the nature of a raffle prevents you repeating the activity.
So, extend this reasoning to paid-for-lootboxes. It is gambling, because you are paying money for a chance at a return. I'm talking in real terms here - yes you always get something, but the overwhelming majority is effectively junk, so the reality is most people are chasing those elusive rewards.
But, are paid-for-lootboxes in need of regulation? Are players suitably motivated to participate and are the rewards important enough for this mechanic to become harmful and lead to problem gambling?
As always, the implementation is the key. When the items are purely cosmetic, players are not motivated to participate. It is entirely optional and the rewards are not big enough to cause problems in our brains. As with anything, it can become addictive but there there is minimal / no outside pressure that will make you more likely to become addicted.
But, start tying your paid-for-lootboxes to progression, like BF2, and suddenly your players become much more motivated to participate. The games mechanics are encouraging players to participate in gambling on a regular basis and that is a bad thing. However, if the rewards are still shit, you won't get the dopamine release and your brain won't start to alter, so the only downside is wasting your money. But, if the rewards start getting good (I don't know enough about BF2), then the dopamine release when you get something good will start to cause problems. You are associated gambling with good feelings in your brain and that leads to problem gambling.
To your specific examples of trading card games and bags of crisps with raffles:
With trading card games, I don't know enough about them to comment properly. But, look through the reasoning as to why some gambling is regulated and why some isn't. With trading card packs, my assumption is that you are guaranteed to get something of value and that the rare cards aren't sufficiently overpowered. These things combined mean that there isn't sufficient motivation to repeatedly buy card packs and the reward isn't significant enough to cause a problem. It is still a type of gambling, but it is not a type of gambling that will lead to problems which is why it isn't regulated.
With bags of crisps, the price of a bag stays the same before and afterwards so you are paying money for the crisps, not the raffle. But, certainly in the UK, if the prize is monetary then you have to be 18 to enter, so here at least it is classified as gambling. Also, due to the very limited number of prizes, only 1 or 2 people will receive that big prize and get their brains all excited, nobody else gets that good feeling and so their brains stay the same.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
From Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
Its not my definition. Its in the English dictionary.
And your ticket analogy is, as always, full of shit. When you buy a ticket to a football game, you are paying to watch the football game. You are getting a guaranteed return - being able to watch.
dude...you have to have a definition that clearly does NOT mean 'I bought a game (money) and it has RNG in it thus its gambling'
any definition that doesnt avoid that problem is bullshit for reasons that I should not have to explain but will. because it would mean ALL games are gambling.
its value in exchange for value. Can you make the case the the FDIC that winning a battle in a game is of value?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
From Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
Its not my definition. Its in the English dictionary.
And your ticket analogy is, as always, full of shit. When you buy a ticket to a football game, you are paying to watch the football game. You are getting a guaranteed return - being able to watch.
dude...you have to have a definition that clearly does NOT mean 'I bought a game (money) and it has RNG in it thus its gambling'
any definition that doesnt avoid that problem is bullshit for reasons that I should not have to explain but will. because it would mean ALL games are gambling.
its value in exchange for value. Can you make the case the the FDIC that winning a battle in a game is of value?
When I pay money for a game, the return is the game. Not a chance of the game, but the game. So, buying something that contains RNG is not gambling, never has been, never will be. What is being advertised (the game) is what you get (100% success rate of the purchase).
When I buy a lockbox, I have no idea what the return will be. I could get something awesome, I could get nothing. It is a gamble. I am directly paying money without knowing what I'll get in return.
I can't really say anything else about it without just straight up insulting you, so I'll just stop.
He says it's not predatory and not gambling then shows a picture of dice saying it's gambling. He can't tell the difference between RNG and gambling. It's obvious at this point he doesn'y know what gambling is.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
From Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
Its not my definition. Its in the English dictionary.
And your ticket analogy is, as always, full of shit. When you buy a ticket to a football game, you are paying to watch the football game. You are getting a guaranteed return - being able to watch.
dude...you have to have a definition that clearly does NOT mean 'I bought a game (money) and it has RNG in it thus its gambling'
any definition that doesnt avoid that problem is bullshit for reasons that I should not have to explain but will. because it would mean ALL games are gambling.
its value in exchange for value. Can you make the case the the FDIC that winning a battle in a game is of value?
When I pay money for a game, the return is the game. Not a chance of the game, but the game. So, buying something that contains RNG is not gambling, never has been, never will be. What is being advertised (the game) is what you get (100% success rate of the purchase).
When I buy a lockbox, I have no idea what the return will be. I could get something awesome, I could get nothing. It is a gamble. I am directly paying money without knowing what I'll get in return.
I can't really say anything else about it without just straight up insulting you, so I'll just stop.
are you absolutely positive that this is the definition and not just how you wish it would be?
paying money to go fishing...would be gambling just as much as paying money to maybe (catch a fish) i mean open a door
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I had some fun playing Neverwinter, but this was one of the things that really annoyed me. I don't think the loot boxes that dropped were random in terms of what you get, but they constantly dropped off mobs. It was fairly annoying. You had to buy a key to open them which I never did, but as soon as I got rid of them the next mob I killed it would be back. That is pretty immersion breaking IMO. I don't understand how people can enjoy games with those type of mechanics in place.
He says it's not predatory and not gambling then shows a picture of dice saying it's gambling. He can't tell the difference between RNG and gambling. It's obvious at this point he doesn'y know what gambling is.
two things
1. gambling is not predatory. predatory means HOW something done. Candy, for example, is not predatory, nor are cigarettes, HOW they get people to buy those items is predatory. So for example, if I make it confusing that you are spending real money instead of virtual money then THAT is predatory, not what you are spending money on. Why is that so hard for you to understand? its really not that complicated.
2. If gambling is paying money for the chance of getting ANYTHING value or not, in return, then paying to go fishing would be considered gambling. When you pull a definition out of your ass on what Gambling means from a legal standpoint you have to make sure the same definition doesn't stick like glue to something like fucking fishing!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE READ AND RESPOND DIRECTLY TO MY OBSERVATIONS
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Reward: 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round'
you pay me money to roll the dice and if you get 11 I say 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round'. People here are suggesting that this is gambling. They are saying that 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round' does not have to be of value for it to be gambling.
Thus, if you pay me to roll the dice with no conclusion of the results then that is gambling. Pay to roll anything that is RNG regardless of what why or who...is gambling.
that is insane
The possible output has to be of VALUE..
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'm quite averse to gambling/betting so I have a hard time understanding why people want it. Can't they find fun/thrill in the actual game?
I kinda dislike that relic thing in WoW as well. Buy an item that can have random stats and I think to myself: why can't I buy what I want instead. I'd even be up for it if it took more resources or time playing the game. A random drop okay... but buying an item to have it randomized... that's just crap.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
From Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
Its not my definition. Its in the English dictionary.
And your ticket analogy is, as always, full of shit. When you buy a ticket to a football game, you are paying to watch the football game. You are getting a guaranteed return - being able to watch.
dude...you have to have a definition that clearly does NOT mean 'I bought a game (money) and it has RNG in it thus its gambling'
any definition that doesnt avoid that problem is bullshit for reasons that I should not have to explain but will. because it would mean ALL games are gambling.
its value in exchange for value. Can you make the case the the FDIC that winning a battle in a game is of value?
When I pay money for a game, the return is the game. Not a chance of the game, but the game. So, buying something that contains RNG is not gambling, never has been, never will be. What is being advertised (the game) is what you get (100% success rate of the purchase).
When I buy a lockbox, I have no idea what the return will be. I could get something awesome, I could get nothing. It is a gamble. I am directly paying money without knowing what I'll get in return.
I can't really say anything else about it without just straight up insulting you, so I'll just stop.
are you absolutely positive that this is the definition and not just how you wish it would be?
paying money to go fishing...would be gambling just as much as paying money to maybe (catch a fish) i mean open a door
/facepalm
Logic passes you by again.
Paying money to go fishing = paying money for the fishing experience. I am guaranteed to get what I pay for - I will definitely go fishing. There is no gambling. No chance. I get what I pay for.
Reward: 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round'
you pay me money to roll the dice and if you get 11 I say 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round'. People here are suggesting that this is gambling. They are saying that 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round' does not have to be of value for it to be gambling.
Thus, if you pay me to roll the dice with no conclusion of the results then that is gambling. Pay to roll anything that is RNG regardless of what why or who...is gambling.
that is insane
The possible output has to be of VALUE..
You are correct, paying MONEY for a CHANCE at a reward is gambling.
The output only has to be of monetary value to be regulated by law. Hence the current discussions on whether more types of gambling should be regulated.
are you absolutely positive that this is the definition and not just how you wish it would be?
paying money to go fishing...would be gambling just as much as paying money to maybe (catch a fish) i mean open a door
Your intentions are good... but you are a little off here. The reason why paying for fishing is not gambling isnt because the fish have no value (they do). It is because it is not deemed to be a game of chance.
Now a slot machine (or loot box) that returned fish for money would likely be considered gambling. Welcome to our new mackerel based economy.
Comments
Hello? Is that Planet Sean? Are you paying for each roll of the dice?
and its still not gambling unless something of monitary value is possible as a return, which it is not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
So once again, take your side issues to some other thread please.
The question is simply: do you like buying and opening loot boxes in games that have loot boxes for sale and if you do, why?
And thanks to @laxie, @Sovrath and others for honest answers.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Or do we mean an end-of-mission reward system as, again, in guild wars 1? I remember a bunch of us went to some special map that had to be accessed from somewhere in Kurzick lands. needed a scroll or something to get to said map. We went from area to area in this map, fighting a lot of hard bosses. At the end, a chest appered and each one of us click ed on it and got a random "green" weapon (in guild wars, greens are generally weapons with rather good stats, not obtainable by regular means). So is that a loot box?
Either way, i was a fool and knew it. Life goes on. I don't like lootboxes as i think spending RL money on a game cheapens what you accomplish, but it is life. Ultimately, lootboxes are a sign of low class to me, so it impacts the way i feel about the game.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Gambling definition taken from dictionary.com
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. 2. the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly
"other stakes" and 2 don't need to be monetary.
This all ties back into the OP as well @Iselin the big answer being people want to gamble in video games. They want that big win just like hitting the jackpot in slots or beating the odds in roulette or poker.
If the player is paying money every time they roll those dice to try and win it big they are gambling.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Not all gambling needs to be regulated.
Indeed, its the real cash being gambled here that is the issue, not the dice, the Monopoly money, or anything else.
And your ticket analogy is, as always, full of shit. When you buy a ticket to a football game, you are paying to watch the football game. You are getting a guaranteed return - being able to watch.
However, there is a legal distinction between general gambling and gambling that requires regulation. That legal distinction differs depending on what country you live in. For most, the legal distinction comes down to the return - if it is a monetary return then it requires regulation.
There are some places - like the Isle of Mann - where the return doesn't have to be monetary. So, paid-for-lootboxes are legally classified as gambling there.
It is important that we take a moment to examine why some types of gambling are regulated and why some aren't. Gambling becomes a problem when you repeat it regularly. Repeated gambling alters the way our brains work. I mean it physically changes our brain and fucks up our chemical balance, specifically the way dopamine functions. This physical change is harmful and leads to lots of other problems.
So, gambling with a monetary return is regulated for two primary reasons. The first is motivation. By providing a monetary return, gamblers are more motivated to continue gambling. The second is the reward. A big monetary payout provides a massive dump of dopamine into our systems and we feel great! We can look forwards to new things to buy, new holidays to take, debt to pay off. It takes the pressure off.
These two things combined (motivation + reward) are what drives people to become problem gamblers and is why it is regulated. It is also why other types of gambling are not regulated. A raffle, for example, is unlikely to motivate you much to participate, when you win you probably don't care all that much, plus the nature of a raffle prevents you repeating the activity.
So, extend this reasoning to paid-for-lootboxes. It is gambling, because you are paying money for a chance at a return. I'm talking in real terms here - yes you always get something, but the overwhelming majority is effectively junk, so the reality is most people are chasing those elusive rewards.
But, are paid-for-lootboxes in need of regulation? Are players suitably motivated to participate and are the rewards important enough for this mechanic to become harmful and lead to problem gambling?
As always, the implementation is the key. When the items are purely cosmetic, players are not motivated to participate. It is entirely optional and the rewards are not big enough to cause problems in our brains. As with anything, it can become addictive but there there is minimal / no outside pressure that will make you more likely to become addicted.
But, start tying your paid-for-lootboxes to progression, like BF2, and suddenly your players become much more motivated to participate. The games mechanics are encouraging players to participate in gambling on a regular basis and that is a bad thing. However, if the rewards are still shit, you won't get the dopamine release and your brain won't start to alter, so the only downside is wasting your money. But, if the rewards start getting good (I don't know enough about BF2), then the dopamine release when you get something good will start to cause problems. You are associated gambling with good feelings in your brain and that leads to problem gambling.
To your specific examples of trading card games and bags of crisps with raffles:
With trading card games, I don't know enough about them to comment properly. But, look through the reasoning as to why some gambling is regulated and why some isn't. With trading card packs, my assumption is that you are guaranteed to get something of value and that the rare cards aren't sufficiently overpowered. These things combined mean that there isn't sufficient motivation to repeatedly buy card packs and the reward isn't significant enough to cause a problem. It is still a type of gambling, but it is not a type of gambling that will lead to problems which is why it isn't regulated.
With bags of crisps, the price of a bag stays the same before and afterwards so you are paying money for the crisps, not the raffle. But, certainly in the UK, if the prize is monetary then you have to be 18 to enter, so here at least it is classified as gambling. Also, due to the very limited number of prizes, only 1 or 2 people will receive that big prize and get their brains all excited, nobody else gets that good feeling and so their brains stay the same.
any definition that doesnt avoid that problem is bullshit for reasons that I should not have to explain but will. because it would mean ALL games are gambling.
its value in exchange for value. Can you make the case the the FDIC that winning a battle in a game is of value?
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Of course. But why would i care if devs are using a more effective method (lootbox) to fleece the whales?
it is never about need. I don't "need" to play MMOs. I don't "need" to watch tv. But I want to. Same principle.
Paying money for a chance.
It's really very simple.
When I pay money for a game, the return is the game. Not a chance of the game, but the game. So, buying something that contains RNG is not gambling, never has been, never will be. What is being advertised (the game) is what you get (100% success rate of the purchase).
When I buy a lockbox, I have no idea what the return will be. I could get something awesome, I could get nothing. It is a gamble. I am directly paying money without knowing what I'll get in return.
I can't really say anything else about it without just straight up insulting you, so I'll just stop.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/paying money to go fishing...would be gambling just as much as paying money to maybe (catch a fish) i mean open a door
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1. gambling is not predatory. predatory means HOW something done. Candy, for example, is not predatory, nor are cigarettes, HOW they get people to buy those items is predatory. So for example, if I make it confusing that you are spending real money instead of virtual money then THAT is predatory, not what you are spending money on. Why is that so hard for you to understand? its really not that complicated.
2. If gambling is paying money for the chance of getting ANYTHING value or not, in return, then paying to go fishing would be considered gambling. When you pull a definition out of your ass on what Gambling means from a legal standpoint you have to make sure the same definition doesn't stick like glue to something like fucking fishing!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEASE READ AND RESPOND DIRECTLY TO MY OBSERVATIONS
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Reward: 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round'
you pay me money to roll the dice and if you get 11 I say 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round'.
People here are suggesting that this is gambling. They are saying that 'your rouge gets a +2 damage for the next 3 round' does not have to be of value for it to be gambling.
Thus, if you pay me to roll the dice with no conclusion of the results then that is gambling. Pay to roll anything that is RNG regardless of what why or who...is gambling.
that is insane
The possible output has to be of VALUE..
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I kinda dislike that relic thing in WoW as well. Buy an item that can have random stats and I think to myself: why can't I buy what I want instead. I'd even be up for it if it took more resources or time playing the game. A random drop okay... but buying an item to have it randomized... that's just crap.
Logic passes you by again.
Paying money to go fishing = paying money for the fishing experience. I am guaranteed to get what I pay for - I will definitely go fishing. There is no gambling. No chance. I get what I pay for.
The output only has to be of monetary value to be regulated by law. Hence the current discussions on whether more types of gambling should be regulated.
Now a slot machine (or loot box) that returned fish for money would likely be considered gambling. Welcome to our new mackerel based economy.