Well you are correct when it comes to paid lootboxes, a spending minority is funding the games.
But I am talking about removing RNG from the game not just paid lootboxes.
People say they hate RNG in games, but its the mechanic that keeps it interesting for the masses
The topic creator clarified that this topic is in regard to paid purchased loot boxes. So earning RNG in-game, be it earned loot boxes or earned loot (which in the end, while also random, is a completely different can of worms from cash shop loot boxes as a business practice) is meant to be (and should be!) a separate matter from just tossing money at the screen for RNG.
But its the same damn thing - its RNG as a core mechanic.
The only difference is spending time in game to get RNG
or
spending money to get RNG
so this is a time vs money discussion at core no?
I like to be given a choice of both.
I think the real moral problem is how expensive loot box is.
Imagine you are playing Wow and there is this rare flying mount with 0.0001% drop rate. People may try to get it but since it is so hard to get people just give up.
Now imagine this flying mount is put in a loot box with 1% drop rate and selling for 10$. Essentially it means they are trying to sell the mount for 1000$ on avg.
Even worse imagine games trying to sell powerful sword in loot box with 1% drop rate and 10$ each.
I dont think its a 'moral problem' but maybe it is. I mean a 'moral problem' would be more like charging super high prices for basic food items, or housing, or medical care...but a video game perk?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
F2P games have to generate cash from somewhere and even though I don't like loot crates I can see why F2P games would use them as a way to get revenue.
BUT, they have no place in AAA games when you've already paid your $60-70 for the game. In that case I think they're just a cash grab and they shouldn't be allowed. Either the game is F2P and the Dev gets cash from the shop or loot crates or content, OR you buy the game. That's it, you buy it, it's bought, one time payment. Like buying a car or a house or a dishwasher or a DvD. Call me old fashioned but that makes sense to me. Cosmetic items from a shop may be ok, but loot crates? No. Pay to win items? Big no!
Any time they expect to get away with the shit EA pulled with SW: Battlefront 2, just don't buy the game, they'll figure it out eventually.
Well you are correct when it comes to paid lootboxes, a spending minority is funding the games.
But I am talking about removing RNG from the game not just paid lootboxes.
People say they hate RNG in games, but its the mechanic that keeps it interesting for the masses
The topic creator clarified that this topic is in regard to paid purchased loot boxes. So earning RNG in-game, be it earned loot boxes or earned loot (which in the end, while also random, is a completely different can of worms from cash shop loot boxes as a business practice) is meant to be (and should be!) a separate matter from just tossing money at the screen for RNG.
But its the same damn thing - its RNG as a core mechanic.
The only difference is spending time in game to get RNG
or
spending money to get RNG
so this is a time vs money discussion at core no?
I like to be given a choice of both.
AND....if its RNG using money for digital cosemetics then nobody has a problem, if its RNG using money for digital progression or advantage in a game then people want to legislate it.
My view is that instead of trying to legislate a bad game into a good game, just look at other options of what to play and stop fucking falling for the goddamn motherfucking hype for the love of god! (its been said 'its easier to scam someone then to explain to them that they are being scammed')
This will be my one and only reply to you about paid for lootboxes in this thread. We've covered this in many other threads but apparently it doesn't sink in.
RNG using money under any circumstance is a bad thing that we want removed from games (it is unregulated gambling) RNG using money for progression, as opposed to cosmetics, is simply worse because not only is it unregulated gambling, it is also predatory (game mechanics put pressure on players to progress, which in turn puts pressure on them to buy, and minors are less able to cope with pressure)
Hopefully that is simple enough for you to understand. Stop twisting everyone else's arguments in your vain attempts to "prove" that your gaming choices are superior.
My question is, why do some forum posters talk about these topics from a companies perspective and not a consumer? Are you a shill? Are you blowing somebody with a C-title at these companies? What the hell type of gamer wants an RNG loot box in a game? The answer should be none.
I'd ask the same thing, but the opposite way. Are you so insecure and require confirmation that your opinion is right that you simply walk into these type of circle-jerk conversations looking for support for your opinion without any sort of counter-argument?
Remember, as much as I appreciate the question at hand, it completely ignores the main reason that loot boxes are in games.... making money. The fact that these make money means that someone is buying them. Both were confirmed in the OP. So then you have some people chime in on why they like these mechanics, like the OP asked for, and they are shills or must be blowing the CEO. Soooooooooooo, what you're saying is that all you want to see here is another thread bagging on loot boxes ad nauseum. Cool, let's try it! I don't think that's been done before on the Internet, but I'm willing to give it a shot!
Well you are correct when it comes to paid lootboxes, a spending minority is funding the games.
But I am talking about removing RNG from the game not just paid lootboxes.
People say they hate RNG in games, but its the mechanic that keeps it interesting for the masses
The topic creator clarified that this topic is in regard to paid purchased loot boxes. So earning RNG in-game, be it earned loot boxes or earned loot (which in the end, while also random, is a completely different can of worms from cash shop loot boxes as a business practice) is meant to be (and should be!) a separate matter from just tossing money at the screen for RNG.
But its the same damn thing - its RNG as a core mechanic.
The only difference is spending time in game to get RNG
or
spending money to get RNG
so this is a time vs money discussion at core no?
I like to be given a choice of both.
AND....if its RNG using money for digital cosemetics then nobody has a problem, if its RNG using money for digital progression or advantage in a game then people want to legislate it.
My view is that instead of trying to legislate a bad game into a good game, just look at other options of what to play and stop fucking falling for the goddamn motherfucking hype for the love of god! (its been said 'its easier to scam someone then to explain to them that they are being scammed')
This will be my one and only reply to you about paid for lootboxes in this thread. We've covered this in many other threads but apparently it doesn't sink in.
RNG using money under any circumstance is a bad thing that we want removed from games (it is unregulated gambling) RNG using money for progression, as opposed to cosmetics, is simply worse because not only is it unregulated gambling, it is also predatory (game mechanics put pressure on players to progress, which in turn puts pressure on them to buy, and minors are less able to cope with pressure)
Hopefully that is simple enough for you to understand. Stop twisting everyone else's arguments in your vain attempts to "prove" that your gaming choices are superior.
its not 'predatory' and its not 'gambling'
fuck me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
people need to learn 1. the difference between supporting something and one being agnostic about its existence and 2. learn to not just randomly throw any random word they can think of on something they dont agree with
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
You know what will happen if you removed RNG out of games - masses would get bored and quit.
The majority of loot boxes are brought by a small minority of players, as shown by studies and developer statements where a few whales make up the vast majority of the revenue.
So I doubt the masses would quit just because loot boxes are removed when it's not the masses that are buying loot boxes in the first place. It's not like the masses were quitting any faster before loot boxes were a thing, after all (feels like quite the opposite, really).
Well you are correct when it comes to paid lootboxes, a spending minority is funding the games.
But I am talking about removing RNG from the game not just paid lootboxes.
People say they hate RNG in games, but its the mechanic that keeps it interesting for the masses
I don't know about others, but I like RNG when it is used to simulate something sensible.
For example, did I hit the target? In an RPG, I press a button to make an attack. In real life, my chance of a successful hit is based on my personal skill, the opponents ability to dodge, environmental factors etc. There are a hell of a lot of calculations going on my my head and my opponents head that determine whether I hit or not.
You cannot get all those inputs into a game in any meaningful way, so instead we have stats and RNG. It makes sense and has comparable outcomes to what we would expect to happen in real life, even if the calculations behind the scenes are completely different to life.
When RNG is just hanging out there all by itself with no context or purpose....like lootboxes.....I just don't understand where the enjoyment comes from. Sure, its nice getting a good item from the box, but the box itself and the process of opening it is not fun, all the good feelings are attached solely to the item you won, if you happened to win.
Well you are correct when it comes to paid lootboxes, a spending minority is funding the games.
But I am talking about removing RNG from the game not just paid lootboxes.
People say they hate RNG in games, but its the mechanic that keeps it interesting for the masses
The topic creator clarified that this topic is in regard to paid purchased loot boxes. So earning RNG in-game, be it earned loot boxes or earned loot (which in the end, while also random, is a completely different can of worms from cash shop loot boxes as a business practice) is meant to be (and should be!) a separate matter from just tossing money at the screen for RNG.
But its the same damn thing - its RNG as a core mechanic.
The only difference is spending time in game to get RNG
or
spending money to get RNG
so this is a time vs money discussion at core no?
I like to be given a choice of both.
I think the real moral problem is how expensive loot box is.
Imagine you are playing Wow and there is this rare flying mount with 0.0001% drop rate. People may try to get it but since it is so hard to get people just give up.
Now imagine this flying mount is put in a loot box with 1% drop rate and selling for 10$. Essentially it means they are trying to sell the mount for 1000$ on avg.
Even worse imagine games trying to sell powerful sword in loot box with 1% drop rate and 10$ each.
I dont think its a 'moral problem' but maybe it is. I mean a 'moral problem' would be more like charging super high prices for basic food items, or housing, or medical care...but a video game perk?
I agree - this is not a moral problem at all - unless you consider 1%ers a moral problem.
The reality of our world is this - extreme inequality when it comes to wealth distribution.
There are people who have so much money that spending $1000 is nothing to them, and at the same time there are people who are in complete survival mode and even 5cents could mean a difference in getting the next meal to survive.
As long as the world has people who have lots of money to spend on entertainment - which is the reality of how our world is - is that a moral problem?
"how expensive loot boxes are" - is completely relative - as "expensive" varies greatly from person to person depending on their disposable income.
slow down there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Economic inequality that creates starvation
vs
Economic inequality that doesnt unlook your door to the next level of your video game.
PERSPECTIVE ON MORALITY PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
keeping a door locked on a video game is not a moral issue I would march down to church about.
or just play Space Engineers for $24 bucks flat rate instead
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I don't want RNG in any form. Games I enjoy reward me if I play well with loot, xp, coin, etc. I can use to progress my character. When I don't do well I die, fail a quest, etc. were my character does not progress. Risk versus reward should not be replaced by RNG.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. All judges agree, it's even in the fucking dictionary.
You just seem unable to differentiate between gambling in general (which has a universally agreed upon definition), and regulated gambling (which differs from country to country).
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
read this very very carefully.
1. dice have been in dungeon and dragons forever, RNG is a important aspect of all games, from getting your crafting material to damage you do with your sword. You seem to think ALL of that is gambling?
2. 'predatory' SPECIFICALLY means HOW something is sold not WHAT is sold. Candybars are not Predatory, how they are ADVERTISED to kids are. Gambling is not predatory HOW gambling is advertised to kids is.
Now if you have some input that addresses those two point yourself other than a fucking video I refuse to watch then do so, else stop.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
read this very very carefully.
1. dice have been in dungeon and dragons forever, RNG is a important aspect of all games, from getting your crafting material to damage you do with your sword. You seem to think ALL of that is gambling?
2. 'predatory' SPECIFICALLY means HOW something is sold not WHAT is sold. Candybars are not Predatory, how they are ADVERTISED to kids are. Gambling is not predatory HOW gambling is advertised to kids is.
Now if you have some input that addresses those two point yourself other than a fucking video I refuse to watch then do so, else stop.
You don't need to watch the video. The thumbnail is enough to completely counter your narrative.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
read this very very carefully.
1. dice have been in dungeon and dragons forever, RNG is a important aspect of all games, from getting your crafting material to damage you do with your sword. You seem to think ALL of that is gambling?
2. 'predatory' SPECIFICALLY means HOW something is sold not WHAT is sold. Candybars are not Predatory, how they are ADVERTISED to kids are. Gambling is not predatory HOW gambling is advertised to kids is.
Now if you have some input that addresses those two point yourself other than a fucking video I refuse to watch then do so, else stop.
You don't need to watch the video. The thumbnail is enough to completely counter your narrative.
1. so again you think dungeon and dragons table top game is gambling. I will make note of that for future reference
2. what people dont understand about this topic is that its NOT about RNG or lootboxes or gambling, its HOW the company coerces, manipulate and confuse people into hitting the buy button. Everything from not making it very visually clear that you are spending real money and not in game money, to not having a confirmation button. THAT is what is predatory.
now please either respond directly to these two observations or not at all your loosing this debate horrifically bad
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
From Wikipedia
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
you would have to make the arguement that in the context of gambling a digital door to a new room is just as valid as a corvette in the context of 'value' in a possible return for 'gambling' BUT that a digital hat is not of 'value' thus not gambling.
which means you would have to argue that reaching a new level in a game is more important that an avatar having a hat and you would have to explain why.
not easy
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value. It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
/facepalm
Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. ....
jesus H christ you just described 100% of gathering in all games.
RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
Learn to read.
Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG = gambling Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
You're right and you're not. I'm actually glad you broke this down, because I think that it's an interesting distinction.
Where do you put trading cards on this scale? See, what's problematic is that you've taken something that's quite acceptable today, which is paying money for RNG, and you've now called it gambling because a company is doing something with it that you don't like. So you take the negative stigma of gambling and attach it to this idea. The problem is that idea has existed for over a century and has never been called gambling before. So are we now going to make that distinction between regulated and unregulated? Like, "Hey, did you want to go to the casino and do some regulated gambling?" Come on!
See, the problem with actually identifying this activity as gambling is that it has MUCH more far-reaching impacts through a number of different industries. Not only trading cards, but what bout those contests where you buy a bag of chips or a soda for a chance to win an XBox? Unless that is the reason for the obesity pandemic in North America, but I don't think it is. No, there aren't people out there buying up thousands of bags of chips an hour to increase their chances of winning and XBox.
The problem is that your middle distinction is flawed.
RNG = Chance Paying Money for RNG with guarantee of something in return = Mystery Box Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
Loot boxes always provide you with something and, in most cases, the value of that item as it relates to similar items sold in a store is usually higher than what you paid. However, the value of that item as it pertains to the individual varies wildly based on their expectations and needs.
As much as you'd like it to be, this isn't gambling. This type of mechanic uses much of the same psychology as gambling does, but it doesn't mean it's gambling. So, as I said before, why not spend whatever money they're going to spend on regulating this and actually EDUCATE. If people are worried about the kids, then teach them about RNG, how it works, and tackle some of their misconceptions. Like, how about this, I flip a coin and get heads 20 times in a row. My chances must be better to flip a tail now, right? Or what about that sports team that's 0-10? They obviously must win at some point, right? So their chances of winning get better as time goes on? These are the types of gotchas that create gamblers, so why not educate youth and dispell the myths so they understand the truths and make better decisions?
However, by this same definition, many game purchases are
Game = Consideration + Chance + Virtual Items (No Value)
The purchase of a game that provides virtual items via RNG is not intrinsically different than a loot box. For legal purposes, it is basically the same.
People may (and often do) argue that their definition of gambling is not the same as the legal definition.... and they are correct. However, just because people don't agree with the law, doesn't mean that it changes.
Overwatch probably has the most consumer friendly loot boxes.
They are only cosmetic so they have no effect on gameplay at all. They are easy to get, by leveling and Arcade mode I can get several every day. Also, they made it so you won't get duplicates (if you don't have every item of that rarity).
The people that pay $100s every event to get every single new skin keeps the system in place that allows me to get what I want for free.
If they switched to a non-loot box system I would have to pay for the skins that I want.
So if they did switch to a non-loot box system, would paying your fair share (i.e. for the skins you want), for a game that you obviously get a lot of ongoing enjoyment out of, be such a bad thing?
Well .... yeah.
I currently enjoy all of the new content for free. Why would I want to go to a system that charges for new characters, new maps and new skins?
No one is ever happy to pay for something that they are used to getting for free.
But in the case of Overwatch !! You did pay for this game at one time, and since release what has Blizzard given it's players , a few new characthers. and ..well arcade mode. and a lootcrate at each level.
Yet . They sell TON's and TON's of these lootcrates because players are suckers , and these suckers also send a clear messege that this is what players wan't.
If a game is FTP ..I understand it. But look where the consumers have taken the market , It's simply annoying that the guys with big wallets dictates how my game shall look like.
This is the fallacy they want to perpetuate, in the same way casinos want to perpetuate the idea that people don't become addicted to gambling because it has significant neurological effects that impact behaviour in the extreme. Instead, people get addicted to gambling because people enjoy gambling, which justifies gambling. Game developers will (and do) argue that people are OK with loot boxes because they spend money on them, and most certainly not because loot box systems directly encourage and condition for addictive behaviours that lead to you spending money on them.
Overwatch probably has the most consumer friendly loot boxes.
They are only cosmetic so they have no effect on gameplay at all. They are easy to get, by leveling and Arcade mode I can get several every day. Also, they made it so you won't get duplicates (if you don't have every item of that rarity).
The people that pay $100s every event to get every single new skin keeps the system in place that allows me to get what I want for free.
If they switched to a non-loot box system I would have to pay for the skins that I want.
So if they did switch to a non-loot box system, would paying your fair share (i.e. for the skins you want), for a game that you obviously get a lot of ongoing enjoyment out of, be such a bad thing?
Well .... yeah.
I currently enjoy all of the new content for free. Why would I want to go to a system that charges for new characters, new maps and new skins?
No one is ever happy to pay for something that they are used to getting for free.
But in the case of Overwatch !! You did pay for this game at one time, and since release what has Blizzard given it's players , a few new characthers. and ..well arcade mode. and a lootcrate at each level.
Yet . They sell TON's and TON's of these lootcrates because players are suckers , and these suckers also send a clear messege that this is what players wan't.
If a game is FTP ..I understand it. But look where the consumers have taken the market , It's simply annoying that the guys with big wallets dictates how my game shall look like.
This is the fallacy they want to perpetuate, in the same way casinos want to perpetuate the idea that people don't become addicted to gambling because it has significant neurological effects that impact behaviour in the extreme. Instead, people get addicted to gambling because people enjoy gambling, which justifies gambling. Game developers will (and do) argue that people are OK with loot boxes because they spend money on them, and most certainly not because loot box systems directly encourage and condition for addictive behaviours that lead to you spending money on them.
actually addicts because addicted to anything in which they can get dopamine. Anything from gambling to TV begin watching. People in power who want to control others try reverse the reality of it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
BUT, they have no place in AAA games when you've already paid your $60-70 for the game. In that case I think they're just a cash grab and they shouldn't be allowed. Either the game is F2P and the Dev gets cash from the shop or loot crates or content, OR you buy the game. That's it, you buy it, it's bought, one time payment. Like buying a car or a house or a dishwasher or a DvD. Call me old fashioned but that makes sense to me. Cosmetic items from a shop may be ok, but loot crates? No. Pay to win items? Big no!
Any time they expect to get away with the shit EA pulled with SW: Battlefront 2, just don't buy the game, they'll figure it out eventually.
RNG using money under any circumstance is a bad thing that we want removed from games (it is unregulated gambling)
RNG using money for progression, as opposed to cosmetics, is simply worse because not only is it unregulated gambling, it is also predatory (game mechanics put pressure on players to progress, which in turn puts pressure on them to buy, and minors are less able to cope with pressure)
Hopefully that is simple enough for you to understand. Stop twisting everyone else's arguments in your vain attempts to "prove" that your gaming choices are superior.
I'd ask the same thing, but the opposite way. Are you so insecure and require confirmation that your opinion is right that you simply walk into these type of circle-jerk conversations looking for support for your opinion without any sort of counter-argument?
Remember, as much as I appreciate the question at hand, it completely ignores the main reason that loot boxes are in games.... making money. The fact that these make money means that someone is buying them. Both were confirmed in the OP. So then you have some people chime in on why they like these mechanics, like the OP asked for, and they are shills or must be blowing the CEO. Soooooooooooo, what you're saying is that all you want to see here is another thread bagging on loot boxes ad nauseum. Cool, let's try it! I don't think that's been done before on the Internet, but I'm willing to give it a shot!
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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fuck me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
people need to learn 1. the difference between supporting something and one being agnostic about its existence and 2. learn to not just randomly throw any random word they can think of on something they dont agree with
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
For example, did I hit the target? In an RPG, I press a button to make an attack. In real life, my chance of a successful hit is based on my personal skill, the opponents ability to dodge, environmental factors etc. There are a hell of a lot of calculations going on my my head and my opponents head that determine whether I hit or not.
You cannot get all those inputs into a game in any meaningful way, so instead we have stats and RNG. It makes sense and has comparable outcomes to what we would expect to happen in real life, even if the calculations behind the scenes are completely different to life.
When RNG is just hanging out there all by itself with no context or purpose....like lootboxes.....I just don't understand where the enjoyment comes from. Sure, its nice getting a good item from the box, but the box itself and the process of opening it is not fun, all the good feelings are attached solely to the item you won, if you happened to win.
Economic inequality that creates starvation
vs
Economic inequality that doesnt unlook your door to the next level of your video game.
PERSPECTIVE ON MORALITY PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
keeping a door locked on a video game is not a moral issue I would march down to church about.
or just play Space Engineers for $24 bucks flat rate instead
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Its not a moral dilemma, just play a non-shitty game that also happens to not have lootboxes in it...like I dont know...Space Engineers perhaps.
and for the love of god do not equate income inequality with lootboxes in a fucking shitty game god damnit
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"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Gambling is for money or real life items that have monitary value.
It would be really hard to argue with a judge that RNG lootbox of crafting materials is gambling but having your character scavange for the same thing is not.
predatory has specific meaning. its not WHAT is being sold its HOW its being sold that makes someting predatory.
basic elementary stuff here
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Gambling is any time you spend money for a chance at a return. All judges agree, it's even in the fucking dictionary.
You just seem unable to differentiate between gambling in general (which has a universally agreed upon definition), and regulated gambling (which differs from country to country).
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/RNG is a very important part of ALL games, gambling from a legal standpoint has to be for something of monetary value. Not rolling your damn dice to figure out hitpoints.
Ever play D&D table top? hmmm?
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1. dice have been in dungeon and dragons forever, RNG is a important aspect of all games, from getting your crafting material to damage you do with your sword. You seem to think ALL of that is gambling?
2. 'predatory' SPECIFICALLY means HOW something is sold not WHAT is sold. Candybars are not Predatory, how they are ADVERTISED to kids are. Gambling is not predatory HOW gambling is advertised to kids is.
Now if you have some input that addresses those two point yourself other than a fucking video I refuse to watch then do so, else stop.
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"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/2. what people dont understand about this topic is that its NOT about RNG or lootboxes or gambling, its HOW the company coerces, manipulate and confuse people into hitting the buy button. Everything from not making it very visually clear that you are spending real money and not in game money, to not having a confirmation button. THAT is what is predatory.
now please either respond directly to these two observations or not at all your loosing this debate horrifically bad
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Gambling
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Gambling = PAYING MONEY for a CHANCE
The paying money bit is critical. I do not have to pay money every time I mine a node. I do not have to pay money every time my character attacks an enemy.
RNG = Chance
Paying Money for RNG = gambling
Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods
As of yet, digital access to a door instead of a digital hat is not something that is universally agreed on as 'something of value', let alone a material good
because otherwise you just described paying money for a ticket to a football game in which the outcome can be random
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which means you would have to argue that reaching a new level in a game is more important that an avatar having a hat and you would have to explain why.
not easy
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You're right and you're not. I'm actually glad you broke this down, because I think that it's an interesting distinction.
Where do you put trading cards on this scale? See, what's problematic is that you've taken something that's quite acceptable today, which is paying money for RNG, and you've now called it gambling because a company is doing something with it that you don't like. So you take the negative stigma of gambling and attach it to this idea. The problem is that idea has existed for over a century and has never been called gambling before. So are we now going to make that distinction between regulated and unregulated? Like, "Hey, did you want to go to the casino and do some regulated gambling?" Come on!
See, the problem with actually identifying this activity as gambling is that it has MUCH more far-reaching impacts through a number of different industries. Not only trading cards, but what bout those contests where you buy a bag of chips or a soda for a chance to win an XBox? Unless that is the reason for the obesity pandemic in North America, but I don't think it is. No, there aren't people out there buying up thousands of bags of chips an hour to increase their chances of winning and XBox.
The problem is that your middle distinction is flawed.
RNG = Chance
Paying Money for RNG with guarantee of something in return = Mystery Box
Paying Money for RNG with monetary return = regulated gambling
Loot boxes always provide you with something and, in most cases, the value of that item as it relates to similar items sold in a store is usually higher than what you paid. However, the value of that item as it pertains to the individual varies wildly based on their expectations and needs.
As much as you'd like it to be, this isn't gambling. This type of mechanic uses much of the same psychology as gambling does, but it doesn't mean it's gambling. So, as I said before, why not spend whatever money they're going to spend on regulating this and actually EDUCATE. If people are worried about the kids, then teach them about RNG, how it works, and tackle some of their misconceptions. Like, how about this, I flip a coin and get heads 20 times in a row. My chances must be better to flip a tail now, right? Or what about that sports team that's 0-10? They obviously must win at some point, right? So their chances of winning get better as time goes on? These are the types of gotchas that create gamblers, so why not educate youth and dispell the myths so they understand the truths and make better decisions?
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Money (or item of value) paid in = Consideration
RNG = Chance
Money (or item of value) paid out = Prize
Gambling = Consideration + Chance + Prize
Mystery/Loot Box = Consideration + Chance + Virtual Item (No Value)
However, by this same definition, many game purchases are
Game = Consideration + Chance + Virtual Items (No Value)
The purchase of a game that provides virtual items via RNG is not intrinsically different than a loot box. For legal purposes, it is basically the same.
People may (and often do) argue that their definition of gambling is not the same as the legal definition.... and they are correct. However, just because people don't agree with the law, doesn't mean that it changes.
People in power who want to control others try reverse the reality of it
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