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Using paywalls to enact lore in an MMORPG

45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
One of the biggest problems with games set outside high fantasy (and a few other isolated settings) has always been racial proportions of players not conforming to what is stated in lore - if elves are supposed to be extremely rare in the lore, but every other player is controlling one, it just doesn't make sense. From what I've seen, there seems to a few main ways to get around this:

1. Enact hard caps on the number of players that can play a certain race (e.g. only 100 elf characters can exist per server)

2. Limit racial choice to races that are common enough in the lore so as to be consistent (i.e. you can't even be an elf. Just humans and dwarves for you)

3. Make the race so underpowered or limited that a small enough number of players want to control one that it doesn't conflict with lore

A fourth method is locking the race behind paywalls, whether a one-time purchase (usually cash shop), subscription (free players can't select the rarer races), or otherwise, which I know a few games have done, overwhelmingly going the one-time purchase route with it. The subscription method hasn't caught on too much, at least that I know of, and I'd like to hear some thoughts about it.

So, thoughts?
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Comments

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,827
    edited November 2017
    How about putting a paywall up for reading quests and moving your avatar while you are at it? As you may have guessed I think this is an odious practice.

    I have two far better solutions. Firstly set the game in a world where the size and disposition of races is not an issue. A game does not have to be high fantasy for elves to me as common as humans. Alternatively don't worry about it, MMOs are full of inconsistences and poorly thought out lore. Its a game, not a template for designing a real world.
    Amaranthar
  • Erinak1Erinak1 Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Scot said:
    How about putting a paywall up for reading quests and moving your avatar while you are at it? As you may have guessed I think this is an odious practice.

    I have two far better solutions. Firstly set the game in a world where the size and disposition of races is not an issue. A game does not have to be high fantasy for elves to me as common as humans. Alternatively don't worry about it, MMOs are full of inconsistences and poorly thought out lore. Its a game, not a template for designing a real world.
    Or just accept that it is a game and so allowances on such things have to be made. Like respawning bosses and such
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,785
    edited November 2017
    Only allow it after a very difficult unlock is accomplished. And limit the unlocks as needed.

    What I would do if I had the means (i.e. unlimited funds and quality Devs) is make a game with about a dozen special races and only allow one character slot to be used on these. And put perma-death on those characters (maybe with a set number of "lives".

    And t'hell with pay walls.
    4507

    Once upon a time....

  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    This was done with Imperials in Elder Scrolls Online.   It made quite a few people pretty irate.
    Ridelynn

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,827
    anemo said:
    This was done with Imperials in Elder Scrolls Online.   It made quite a few people pretty irate.

    Poor showing from a MMO that never started with a cash shop. What are they selling these days or is it by and large still cash shop free?
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    There are better ways to enact lore IMO.  Old MMOs were going in the right direction IMO with ideas like having large experience penalties for playing with certain races and classes.  On the flip side these races usually had some kind of racial bonus like infrasion or being a hybrid of two classes.  
    4507kjempffRidelynn
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    4507 said:
    One of the biggest problems with games set outside high fantasy (and a few other isolated settings) has always been racial proportions of players not conforming to what is stated in lore
    Lol ... just change the lore. No one says a game cannot make up its own lore. And most people don't care that much anyway.
    Octagon7711
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
    Scot said:
    I have two far better solutions. Firstly set the game in a world where the size and disposition of races is not an issue. A game does not have to be high fantasy for elves to me as common as humans.

    4507 said:
    One of the biggest problems with games set outside high fantasy (and a few other isolated settings) has always been racial proportions of players not conforming to what is stated in lore
    Lol ... just change the lore. No one says a game cannot make up its own lore. And most people don't care that much anyway.

    This isn't a solution, it's just dodging the problem. What if you're a developer working on an already-established IP, or even if you just really want there to be rare races in the game (completely understandable - the ultra-small community of 'others' has always been a staple of myth/fantasy)? 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    There are a lot of hard core cannon people out there.  They treat it like it was history that actually happened not some writers making stuff up as they think of it.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    edited November 2017
    Absolutely no way. If I loaded up a game and I couldn't play the race I wanted, it would be uninstalled extremely quickly.

    Luckily, I've never come across a race behind a paywall that I wanted to play.
    k61977
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,118
    edited November 2017
    Star Wars Galaxies had the Jedi grind. Jedis weren't common at all in that era in terms of lore, so they put in a grind to make them super-endgame things.

    That approach isn't perfect, but I think it worked on the whole - mainly due to the fact that not being a Jedi was still interesting. Alternatively, you could still support the Jedi cause as a non-Jedi player. If Elves are extremely appealing in your lore to some people and they can't play them, it might be an issue.

    I think you need to ensure two things:
    1. If the exclusive lore is interesting (which it probably is, just because it's exclusive), make sure people can still interact with it, even if they don't get the exclusivity themselves. In your example, this could mean letting Humans form relationships with Elves, perhaps even secret ones if it is frowned upon.

    2. You need to make sure whoever gets the exclusive thing is an active member in the community. This is why grind works to an extent - whoever grinds to the flashy thing is likely dedicated in the first place. What I did on my Starbound/Minecraft projects, is keep in touch with the community and have a good idea of who is the most dedicated. Then when some lore exclusivity came about, I already knew who would be eligible. In large scale games (where you can't keep tabs on people manually), you could have some sort of an community election system. People would elect who gets the stuff - you'd need to have balances in place to distribute this evenly, i.e. make sure one massive guild doesn't get the whole thing.
    4507
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Scot said:
    anemo said:
    This was done with Imperials in Elder Scrolls Online.   It made quite a few people pretty irate.

    Poor showing from a MMO that never started with a cash shop. What are they selling these days or is it by and large still cash shop free?
    It's got a full cash shop now. Not PTW in any way but a large cash shop offering nonetheless.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Aside from experience penalties, you can also add other penalties.  For instance, if you have factions in your game and Elves are rare because they are fighting with humans and other races they can be killed on sight by most humans depending on their faction.  Human Druids and Rangers might be friendly towards them.  Elves may also have difficulty finding places to sell items and buy their new spells on level up due to the same faction issue. 
    4507
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,118
    Flyte27 said:
    Aside from experience penalties, you can also add other penalties.  For instance, if you have factions in your game and Elves are rare because they are fighting with humans and other races they can be killed on sight by most humans depending on their faction.  Human Druids and Rangers might be friendly towards them.  Elves may also have difficulty finding places to sell items and buy their new spells on level up due to the same faction issue. 
    Sounds interesting. Certain classes would basically be a "hard mode" of the game.

    I wonder if people would be able to understand that though, especially in character creation. You might end up in people playing Elves because they like them, but not enjoying the game because it's too difficult for them. And vice versa, your hardcore players might not opt into Elves, because they might prefer Humans.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    I don't think that many care.  Games have known to put race or class behind paywall.  But they only do it for the money.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    4507 said:


    This isn't a solution, it's just dodging the problem. What if you're a developer working on an already-established IP, or even if you just really want there to be rare races in the game (completely understandable - the ultra-small community of 'others' has always been a staple of myth/fantasy)? 
    Dodging the problem .. leads to no problem .. and by definition is a solution.

    "you really want there to be rare races" .. why bother? It is not like the game will magically be better because of that. 
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
    4507 said:


    This isn't a solution, it's just dodging the problem. What if you're a developer working on an already-established IP, or even if you just really want there to be rare races in the game (completely understandable - the ultra-small community of 'others' has always been a staple of myth/fantasy)? 
    Dodging the problem .. leads to no problem .. and by definition is a solution.

    "you really want there to be rare races" .. why bother? It is not like the game will magically be better because of that. 
    It's called caring about story/lore. Some people do it, obviously you don't.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    4507 said:


    This isn't a solution, it's just dodging the problem. What if you're a developer working on an already-established IP, or even if you just really want there to be rare races in the game (completely understandable - the ultra-small community of 'others' has always been a staple of myth/fantasy)? 
    Dodging the problem .. leads to no problem .. and by definition is a solution.

    "you really want there to be rare races" .. why bother? It is not like the game will magically be better because of that. 
    The problem is wanting rare races and finding a solution that works to achieve that. You obviously do not belong in this conversation because you don't care about that idea, so basically... just leave. You are not contributing to this conversation in any fashion whatsoever. If you wanted to feel like a forum warrior, as many of the top posters here do, then you've said your piece. Move along kiddo.

    OP, I don't think a pay wall to reach any type of content is a good thing. I would rather there be a 3 year grind than even a $5 charge just because of the principle. There are many things companies can charge money for in a cash shop that people will spend money on that does not lock anyone else out of the game.

    I would opt for a lore based series of quests where you, in the end, discover the secrets to the race and unlock the ability to play one of them. The types of players that would appreciate the idea behind a "rare race" would absolutely love this method.
    4507
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    Many games also use gating methods that arent pay walls.
    This could be that you need a max level character to unlock a certain race, or need to have finished hard objectives/quests/stories, or crafted access, or gotten sufficient faction standing.. Etc. That will ensure that less players are going to reroll, only dedicated players will.
    Other than that as @Flyte27 mentioned, adding difficulty to certain races compared to others will do the trick too.. because the majority will go for the path of least resistance, provided the alternatives are in their taste visually and play wise.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    laxie said:
    Flyte27 said:
    Aside from experience penalties, you can also add other penalties.  For instance, if you have factions in your game and Elves are rare because they are fighting with humans and other races they can be killed on sight by most humans depending on their faction.  Human Druids and Rangers might be friendly towards them.  Elves may also have difficulty finding places to sell items and buy their new spells on level up due to the same faction issue. 
    Sounds interesting. Certain classes would basically be a "hard mode" of the game.

    I wonder if people would be able to understand that though, especially in character creation. You might end up in people playing Elves because they like them, but not enjoying the game because it's too difficult for them. And vice versa, your hardcore players might not opt into Elves, because they might prefer Humans.
    The way it worked in practice -

    You had the min-maxers, who believed that unless you were THE BEST race/class combo, that you were totally inferior in every other way as well, and not worthy of playing with.

    You had a few happy-go-lucky, who picked whatever, and sometimes they got lucky, and sometimes they didn't and chose something that had so many inherent disadvantages that it made the game overly difficult for them and they just stopped playing.

    And you had everyone else, who just picked what they thought looked cool and they wanted to play, they went through the game without too many issues, and had a good time regardless.

    But the min-maxers are definitely the vocal minority, and are usually good at making a lot of stink, and "everyone else" ends up hearing it. I always laughed because, next patch cycle, they would reroll their entire character because racial bonus was nerfed or a class perk was changed.
    laxie4507
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    Also,

    Pay wall would work, but I think it would be pretty negatively perceived. ESO did it and took a lot of heat for it.

    I would support the achievement unlock - it would limit the number, and reward those who were willing to work toward it. I remember the SWG Jedi that was mentioned here, seems like there were a few other games that had similar hero classes that had to be unlocked. FFXIV used to be a bit like this - you had to level up a couple of varying classes to unlock the more powerful jobs. The bar was set fairly low so it didn't really serve to limit the number of people choosing any particular thing, but it still existed (and has since been removed).

    Warframe represents a sort of middle ground. You can work to unlock new classes (frames), or you can buy them outright if you wanted to. The core of the game more or less revolves around changing your frame a good deal though, and you aren't locked into any one particular frame per character or anything, so not exactly the same thing.

    It's not uncommon for new races to be restricted to DLC or Expansions. That isn't exactly the same thing as a pay wall, as you aren't ~just~ paying to unlock a new race, but does fall in a similar vein.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited November 2017
    You want to make a rare race ?

    Make it eligible for varying degrees of permadeath,  i.e. 1 life, 2 lives, 3 etc.
    Post edited by Kyleran on

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  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    I would go with a permadeath system but also overpower the rare race. 

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  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    Option 5 - ensure that the NPC population accurately reflects the lore populations and design the areas and overall player population hotspots so that they correspond to the NPC population ratio (visibly).
  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,500
    So basically this is a horrible idea for an MMO.  Look at it like this it would basically punish anyone who didn't play the game at launch.  Just look at game that have limited houses placements, I left a few games because I got tired of competing with others to just have something the game was suppose to offer everyone because a handful of people took everything.  You want a game where new players can't play a race because they didn't log in during he first 5 mins where everyone created all of a race just in case they wanted to play it later.

    I understand the point the OP is saying, but by doing that you would lose a player base faster than you make one.  If I want to play a dwarf and I can't I am not going to play the game, it's that simple.  No one should be forced to play something they don't really want to because someone else already used up all the spaces. 

    I would love to see a MMO game that didn't have humans or humanoids at all but that isn't going to happen either.
    VengeSunsoar
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