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(updated!) Authorities looking at regulating RNG as gambling

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    immodium said:
    immodium said:
    You can rip semantics apart. It doesn't matter if you like this game or not. It doesn't matter if it is gambling or not. May I remind you again, it takes ~4500 hours or ~$2100 to unlock everything in this game. That is fucking ridiculous
    The problem I'm having is people claiming it's gambling just to try and force their agenda of removing ALL micro transactions/loot boxes from gaming.

    That is ridiculous what you quoted.

    However IMO the reason we are seeing companies trying to gate content behind money is because the MMO community have been ok with for some time.

    When you purchased Everquest or any of the first generation MMO's you had a free arbitrary length of time to play (A month usually, it's easy to monetise it that way) then they stopped you from playing. If you wanted to carry on playing the game you purchased you had to pay a fee.

    So you've got a group of gamers who supported additional charges for a game you've already purchased.

    Where did you honestly think that was heading?

    If it's ok for one computer game to remove content or even the entire game behind additional charges, why can't others?

    First, I am sorry but charging a sub fee for an online service is not in any way heading towards RNG. This is like predicting Netflix would become RNG as well someday. We paid for online service, and we were fucking happy about it. And most people whom you see have gone bananas over this on this forum still prefer that method of payment. 

    I'm not saying it's the same.

    I'm saying the uproar we are seeing is because single-player games are gating content behind a pay-wall after an initial purchase fee. Whether by RNG or micro-transactions.

    Or are you implying if BF2 removed the micro-transaction/RNG entirely and implemented a mandatory sub after 30 days of play/optional sub that included less grind people would be happy?

    MMO's even turned their back on mandatory subscriptions and have been doing Micro-transactions/RNG for at least 7 years.
    Besides the monetization method, value matters. Again, I'm not criticizing micro-transactions. 
    immodium
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    Gdemami said:
    Do I have to agree with everything any company does or I have a mob mentality?
    Disagreeing and condemning are 2 different things...

    Yeah, rationality seems to be scarce these days.
    Condemning? Grasping at straws mate. I said it is ridiculous. Now show me on the dolly where did that hurt you. 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Grasping at straws mate. 
    Really....?

    I am not the one who is trying to justify their position by comparing it to 'death threats, or harassing their employees over the phone.'

    It isn't about an extent how far you are able to go with your 'dislike', it is the inability to accept an indifference that is the issue.

    There is nothing ridiculous about it.


    I am sorry if my post came out too personal, I guess my point was in more general tone.
    MadFrenchie
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    Gdemami said:
    Grasping at straws mate. 
    Really....?

    I am not the one who is trying to justify their position by comparing it to 'death threats, or harassing their employees over the phone.'

    It isn't about an extent how far you are able to go with your 'dislike', it is the inability to accept an indifference that is the issue.

    There is nothing ridiculous about it.


    I am sorry if my post came out too personal, I guess my point was in more general tone.
    I am sorry but your post came out too nothing, I don't understand you. Maybe it's my language barrier. 

    I think the amount of time/money required to unlock all the contents of this game is ridiculous. Why do I need to accept an indifference? 

    I also don't understand your position. What do you think of $2100/4500hr combo? You don't care? You think it's fine? You think it could be better? What's your take?
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Why do I need to accept an indifference?
    Not sure if serious...
    immodium
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    Gdemami said:
    Why do I need to accept an indifference?
    Not sure if serious...
    No I was asking sincerely. You meant I should accept the indifference of others towards this issue?
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,204
    "55% of UK 25-34 year-olds switch from gambling-style games or vitual item wagering (such as skin betting in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive) to real-money gambling. 80% of those who switch in The Netherlands do so because playing with real money "is more exciting."

    Gaming has become not just a springboard to gambling it is gambling where the likes of loot boxes are involved. If there is a transfer process between some sort of in game credit and real money then gambling credits is gambling money.

    Lets remember this is not just about loot boxes, just like real world gambling it can occur in many forms in games. If loot boxes alone are targeted, companies will seek to continue gambling in games in other forms.
    Gdemami

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  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,548
    edited November 2017
    sayuu said:
    By law in Belgium for a game to be considered gambling one must be able to lose one's money ( the wager)

    so  online casinos and more recently CS:GO item wagering is considered gambling in belgium because one can lose what they wager and walk away with nothing


    in loot boxes one never walks away with nothing, one can get something undesirable, but one will always get something.



    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    Very debatable.  You really do end up with nothing, but some electronic data that is worthless to anyone but you.  So in essence you really get nothing at all because you cannot convert it to anything of value as none of these games will let you sell it. 
    GdemamiMadFrenchieTuor7
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,580
    Scot said:
    "55% of UK 25-34 year-olds switch from gambling-style games or vitual item wagering (such as skin betting in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive) to real-money gambling. 80% of those who switch in The Netherlands do so because playing with real money "is more exciting."

    Gaming has become not just a springboard to gambling it is gambling where the likes of loot boxes are involved. If there is a transfer process between some sort of in game credit and real money then gambling credits is gambling money.

    Lets remember this is not just about loot boxes, just like real world gambling it can occur in many forms in games. If loot boxes alone are targeted, companies will seek to continue gambling in games in other forms.
    The UK Government earned over £2 billion in 2014 from gambling alone.

    I'm sure they don't care much about people getting addicted to put a stop to in game loot boxes.

    image
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,119
    edited November 2017
    immodium said:
    The UK Government earned over £2 billion in 2014 from gambling alone.

    I'm sure they don't care much about people getting addicted to put a stop to in game loot boxes.
    So the UK Government is actually happy that these games are now getting kids into being more likely to gamble for real money in the future?

    I don't think so, they would be more happy if they taxed it at the source.

    You are talking one issue that is hitting games played by a lot of kids, so we can't just spin the gamble addiction like this is being just marketed to adults.
    Gdemami
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,580
    MaxBacon said:
    immodium said:
    The UK Government earned over £2 billion in 2014 from gambling alone.

    I'm sure they don't care much about people getting addicted to put a stop to in game loot boxes.
    So the UK Government is actually happy that these games are now getting kids into being more likely to gamble for real money in the future?

    Kids? @Scot mentioned 25-34 year olds.

    image
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,691
    immodium said:
    MaxBacon said:
    immodium said:
    The UK Government earned over £2 billion in 2014 from gambling alone.

    I'm sure they don't care much about people getting addicted to put a stop to in game loot boxes.
    So the UK Government is actually happy that these games are now getting kids into being more likely to gamble for real money in the future?

    Kids? @Scot mentioned 25-34 year olds.
    So basically kids! ;)
    immodiumByrgenarHofenMrMelGibsonTuor7
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
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  • RosenborgRosenborg Member UncommonPosts: 162
    MaxBacon said:
    immodium said:
    The UK Government earned over £2 billion in 2014 from gambling alone.

    I'm sure they don't care much about people getting addicted to put a stop to in game loot boxes.
    So the UK Government is actually happy that these games are now getting kids into being more likely to gamble for real money in the future?

    I don't think so, they would be more happy if they taxed it at the source.

    You are talking one issue that is hitting games played by a lot of kids, so we can't just spin the gamble addiction like this is being just marketed to adults.

    The EU doesn't allow companies to have monopoly, right? Well the Finnish government owns two companies that are monopolies. First one, Alko, sells wines and liquors. Second one, Veikkaus, handles gambling.

    While the defence of those monopolies are that, some of the profits are used to help alcoholics and addicts. I still find it kind of funny that one CEO of Alko got fired, just because the sales of Koskenkorva (our national vodka) went down one year.

    So who knows what the governments are really happy about..
    laseritMrMelGibson
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,119
    immodium said:
    Kids? @Scot mentioned 25-34 year olds.
    I'm not talking about that specifically, and yes that the games that do implement this gamble on loot crates do have ratings for kids (Battlefront 2 is 13 for example), hence obviously represent part of the games pop and are exposed to that.
  • chilltime99chilltime99 Member UncommonPosts: 37
    MaxBacon said:
    Gdemami said:
    Value =/= cost...
    Says who?

    So if I open a casino, and always give people apples when they don't win money, and put the apples as of equal value to your cost... Am I excluded from gambling regulations? :D 
    "Price is what you pay, value is what you get". Who said that? Warren Buffett
    GdemamiMaxBaconTorval
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,119
    "Price is what you pay, value is what you get". Who said that? Warren Buffett
    Okay I'm going to open an Apple casino and say it's not gambling, gotta get rich
    Win Apples or Money! \o/

    Scotchilltime99
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,580
    MaxBacon said:
    "Price is what you pay, value is what you get". Who said that? Warren Buffett
    Okay I'm going to open an Apple casino and say it's not gambling, gotta get rich
    Win Apples or Money! \o/

    If you're trying to ensnare children open up a fair ground. Kids gamble there all the time.

    image
  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,912
    Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

    Change material goods to digital and tell me how it's not gambling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

    TheDarkrayne

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  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Nilden said:
    Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods.

    Change material goods to digital and tell me how it's not gambling?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

    Pretty much the end of this discussion.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    ..but

    As I mentioned in another post. If there's a way to infinitely open loot boxes without paying, is paying for it simply speeding up progress?
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,167
    Gdemami said:
    ConstantineMerus said:
    May I remind you again, it takes ~4500 hours or ~$2100 to unlock everything in this game. That is fucking ridiculous
    Just to be on the same page, what part about it is 'fucking ridiculous'?

    1) That there are people willing to devote more spare time than you?
    2) That there are people willing to devote more money than you?
    3) That there is a chance you might be able to unlock everything?
    4) That there is someone else the company decided to cater to?
    5) That there is just someone with different opinion and perception than you?
    6) That there is someone doing something without your consent?

    The only ridiculous is how people do not hesitate to strip themselves off their rights....typical mob mentality...
    Mob mentality lol

    You really are off in your own little imaginary world.

    Back when we didn't have laws or regulations, you didn't have any rights.
    ConstantineMerusMadFrenchie

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,167
    Gdemami said:
    Grasping at straws mate. 
    Really....?

    I am not the one who is trying to justify their position by comparing it to 'death threats, or harassing their employees over the phone.'

    It isn't about an extent how far you are able to go with your 'dislike', it is the inability to accept an indifference that is the issue.

    There is nothing ridiculous about it.


    I am sorry if my post came out too personal, I guess my point was in more general tone.
    I am sorry but your post came out too nothing, I don't understand you. Maybe it's my language barrier. 

    I think the amount of time/money required to unlock all the contents of this game is ridiculous. Why do I need to accept an indifference? 

    I also don't understand your position. What do you think of $2100/4500hr combo? You don't care? You think it's fine? You think it could be better? What's your take?
    He's just worried about his stock portfolio
    ConstantineMerus

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,606
    Well, according to Belgium law, gambling doesn't exist period then. Well, at least not in America where EVERYONE who gambles gets what they call points towards free meals, hotel accommodations and so on, if they so choose. Which in my opinion is a pretty dumb law. Gambling has nothing to do with win or lose all options. You can get something in return which doesn't equal the value of what you put in and THAT is what gambling is in America. 
    Gdemami

  • JeffSpicoliJeffSpicoli Member EpicPosts: 2,849
    edited November 2017
    As someone who is pro legalization of Gambling its hard for me to take a stance on this one.


    Loot boxes and the way gaming industry is all about nickel and diming every cent out of the customer is something i despise but at the same time I want the option to Gamble. I love playing Draft Kings fanatsy football and I wish i could just straight up bet on sporting contests outside of Vegas.

    So as much as I want to see EA get spanked i don't want any of this nonsense trickling over to the other things i love that walk a fine line  when it comes to gambling such as Draft Kings.
    • Aloha Mr Hand ! 

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,204
    immodium said:
    MaxBacon said:
    immodium said:
    The UK Government earned over £2 billion in 2014 from gambling alone.

    I'm sure they don't care much about people getting addicted to put a stop to in game loot boxes.
    So the UK Government is actually happy that these games are now getting kids into being more likely to gamble for real money in the future?

    Kids? @Scot mentioned 25-34 year olds.

    I would guess the 13 year olds don't have a credit card yet so its hard to move onto actual money gambling. But if 55% of twenty to thirty year olds are falling for this, teens won't stand a chance once they get their own card.

    I do question that the percentage is so high, but even if further studies show it to be more like 20%, that's just not acceptable.

    In the past gaming when you were a kid made you want to play games when you got older. Now gaming when you are a kid is going to make you more likely to gamble.
    GdemamiAyin

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