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(updated!) Authorities looking at regulating RNG as gambling

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Iselin said:
    cheyane said:
    This is their own fault their relentless greed will bring about consequences that will affect every other game that has this. Now that parents and religious folk have weighed in you're screwed.
    And they could have avoided the whole thing by having some restraint and self-regulating.
    The past evolution of the schemes showed it was inevitable.

    Indeed, the past evolution of pretty much all business industry showed that it was inevitable.  For all the hooting and hollering that government is bad, the regulations don't get created until the industry being regulated has shown themselves to be unable to remain fair and equitable in their dealings with the general public.
    IselinlaseritGdemamiAvarix

    image
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2017
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Iselin said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Iselin said:
    SEANMCAD said:

    Second off, kids 'could' 'feel' 'forced' to spend money in ANY context, including buying the video game itself, buying the best shoes. but 'could' and 'direct relationship' is not the same thing and again one has to argue how that would be different then buying shoes.


    I'm so glad you took the bait, Sean :)

    You do know that in the real world, there are many laws and regulations that impact how the video game or the shoes can be marketed and advertised, right? Truth in advertising laws, etc.

    So what happens in the game's virtual world itself? Are there regulations that protect consumers once they're inside? Are all in-game marketing practices equally innocent?

    You really should ask yourself "Is this really dumb, or am I just not understanding it?" Preferably, before you post.
    that is exactly right.

    but stating 'gambling 'could' make childern feel forced to spend more money' is not exactly explaining how gambling specifically is doing that in ways that buying shoes are not or for that matter bubble gum or even anything that is NOT regulated for advertising. Its an EXTREEMLY vague statement.

    so are you saying that the advertising laws around lootboxes need to be modified? really? are such laws lying? really? where exactly.

    just making a blanket statement of 'it 'could' cause a child to feel forced' is not really remotely specfic enough.

    Not even a nice try
    Well I'm sure the chairman was assuming a certain level of knowledge and common sense in his audience which, he believed, would understand just what that social pressure is in the case of P2W loot boxes in SWBF2.

    Maybe he overestimated the intelligence of his audience? Quite possible as evidenced by many posts in this thread.
    The audience has no fucking clue.

    and what 'common sense' is it that everyone knows that gambling has a higher chance of making kids feel 'socially pressured to spend money' unlike all other products on the planet.

    or are you just saying gambling adverts need to have the same regulation as tennis shoes when it comes to adverts because you give a fuck about the kids?

    not buying that shit for a second


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2017/11/18/how-a-star-wars-video-game-faced-charges-that-it-was-promoting-gambling/?tid=sm_rd&utm_term=.623983b40b62
    not remotely related to what I just said.

    does anyone even read what I write?
    The 'state' also spends millions of dollars putting away people into prision that have marijuana charges, so I am not really impressed with the states assertion on what is proper and not proper, I instead try to use critical thinking

    EDIT: I should point out that this does not mean I disagree with everything the state does but rather I like to look at the details of each situation for myself before assuming the state is making a good decision.
    IselinforcelimaEponyxDamor

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,495
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    I'm a manufacturer/precision metal fabricater

    My price per widget has actually significantly declined over the last 25 years. My bottom line has increased due to higher volumes.

    I also must invest about 1.5 million in new technology every 2-3 years to remain competitive. That 1.5 million would be about 10-15% of my sales over that time period.

    Gaming companies may cry the blues, but I really don't feel much sympathy for them.
    Gdemami

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    laserit said:
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    I'm a manufacturer/precision metal fabricater

    My price per widget has actually significantly declined over the last 25 years. My bottom line has increased due to higher volumes.

    I also must invest about 1.5 million in new technology every 2-3 years to remain competitive. That 1.5 million would be about 10-15% of my sales over that time period.

    Gaming companies may cry the blues, but I really don't feel much sympathy for them.
    You sound rich. Let's be friends.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    edited November 2017
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling yet. Still investigating.

    PC Gamer have updated the story aswell.
    CrazKanuk

    image
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,226
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.

    immodium
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,851
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    I'd rather pay $80 for a $60 game, rather than $60+$200 for an $80 game.
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,408
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.


    That is exactly what should happen.  Then the customers makes games fail or succeed.
  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,408
    Now where was that post about people having to eat crow???  >:)
  • OldKingLogOldKingLog Member UncommonPosts: 46
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.

    So its not gambling, but yet they are looking to regulate it like contests, sweepstakes, lotteries, etc, you know ...gambling. You're just splitting hairs.
    Horusra said:
    Now where was that post about people having to eat crow???  >:)
    Looks like crow is still on the menu.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    immodium said:
    According to this site there was some confusion in the translation and the Belgium Government in fact don't class it as gambling.
    Taking that one step further. Here is the actual document produced:

    https://ds1.static.rtbf.be/uploader/pdf/d/d/b/rtbfinfo_5c742f9b8996afe274e39ad9b4acb453.pdf

    If you read through the document, you will see that they actually conclude that lootboxes are NOT gambling, and recommend public controls such as:

    More Transparency about the odds.
    Additional label of Lootboxes on the PEGI system
    (as well as a suggestion for a label of Microtransactions)

    There is also some very good discussion of skin betting.  I am going to have to do some more research on the specifics that they used to distinguish the two.

    So its not gambling, but yet they are looking to regulate it like contests, sweepstakes, lotteries, etc, you know ...gambling. You're just splitting hairs.
    Horusra said:
    Now where was that post about people having to eat crow???  >:)
    Looks like crow is still on the menu.
    that would not be splitting hairs because the regulations would be different.

    when you start to suggest making laws are a good things, getting specifics and being specific is important

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Your post that ignited this series of responses had no point; it was simply your misinterpretation of an EU regulation that you (most erroneously) thought had some application to the overall topic at hand.

    You would've retained the image of a better understanding of both topics had you stuck with the LOL trolling.
    ...you say all that after you repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding the point you are so fiercely try to attack.

    Your lack of comprehension and reasoning ability does not make other people 'dim witted'.

    Honestly, if one wants to look smart, they can just remain silent and let you do the talking....
    MadFrenchieIselin
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,603
    If it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck .....

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited November 2017
    Gdemami said:
    Next news will be Kinder Surprise banned in Belgium...

    That is same stupid line of thinking people are supporting here, and politicians banking on it.
    Yep, then they'll have to ban those little eggs that have toys or goo in them... We can't allow those precious children to end up with just goo. The real problem here has been people disliking monetary practices yet still paying for the product anyway.. Had all of these folks planted their feet firmly to begin with, shit wouldn't have gone this far... yet here we are... What we accept and pay for, is what drives markets...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Distopia said:
    The real problem here has been people disliking monetary practices yet still paying for the product anyway.. 
    People do not pay for things they dislike...

    The 'real' problem is your agenda being pushed forward using bad logic.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    The real problem here has been people disliking monetary practices yet still paying for the product anyway.. 
    People do not pay for things they dislike...

    The 'real' problem is your agenda being pushed forward using bad logic.
    If people have a problem with Micro transactions, yet still pay into products that are supported by them, yes they are buying products they do not like... 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2017
    Distopia said:
    If people have a problem with Micro transactions, yet still pay into products that are supported by them, yes they are buying products they do not like... 
    eww....so common faulty inductive reasoning on these boards.

    If people pay for microtransactions, they have no problem with them.
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,149
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    This argument misses out on the fact that there are likely 300% more gamers. . or double that even depending on what you look at and digital distribution compared to the cost of distribution before.  Companies are making more money. . not less and that happened before DLC / loot boxes.

    Yes, things could cost more to make BUT they are not having the same cost to get to the many many more customers around the entire globe.  How many people bought Super Mario bros 2 on release compared to how many will buy Star wars battle front 2?   

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    If people have a problem with Micro transactions, yet still pay into products that are supported by them, yes they are buying products they do not like... 
    eww....faulty inductive reasoning.

    If people pay for microtransactions, they have no problems with them.
    One would think, yet they buy into products with them, and do nothing but complain about them afterward....

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Distopia said:
    One would think
    One would think false, explained above.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Gdemami said:
    Distopia said:
    One would think
    One would think false, explained above.
    You're an odd duck Gdem... Can't even see when someone is actually agreeing with you...LMAO...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,149
    edited November 2017
    Aethaeryn said:
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    This argument misses out on the fact that there are likely 300% more gamers. . or double that even depending on what you look at and digital distribution compared to the cost of distribution before.  Companies are making more money. . not less and that happened before DLC / loot boxes.

    Yes, things could cost more to make BUT they are not having the same cost to get to the many many more customers around the entire globe.  How many people bought Super Mario bros 2 on release compared to how many will buy Star wars battle front 2?   
    Here you go.  Look at the NA sales vs world. . and the numbers.   
    SWBattlefront  14 million copies by May 2016 
    Nintento and other console makers also had to recover R&D costs. . consoles now are based on already existing PC parts. 

    SUper mario bros 2 (mario has the one of the best sales records in history and there wasn't much competition)

    North America:5.39m72.2%
    + Europe:1.18m15.8%
    + Japan:0.70m9.4%
    + Rest of the World:0.19m2.6%

    My point is that you can argue inflation on its own but you can't consider the impact in money making without considering sales and distribution.  

    Saying games are more expensive than ever to make is misleading when you don't say that  the companies are making more than ever on them.

    EDIT:  I am late to the party on this post :)
    Gdemami

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Aethaeryn said:
    Aethaeryn said:
    heerobya said:
    Let's be real here.

    Gaming is cheaper than ever relative to inflation, and games COST more to make then ever.

    DLC, loot boxes... industry does what industry needs to.

    Want to see DLC and micro transactions go away? Expect to pay $80-90+ (US) for a now $60 game.

    "I’ve made the argument over the last few years that games are essentially cheaper than they’ve ever been. An NES game in 1990 cost, on average, about $50. That’s $89 in 2013 money. Your $70 N64 cartridges in 1998 would require the equivalent of $100 today. Heck, the $50 PlayStation 2 game you bought in 2005 is worth $60, the exact price of a typical retail game in 2013. This isn't to say that salaries (or hourly pay) have kept up with inflation and the cost-of-living -- it decidedly hasn't -- but it is to say that, dollar-to-dollar over the past 35 years, gaming hardware and software is generally cheaper than ever."

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/15/the-real-cost-of-gaming-inflation-time-and-purchasing-power
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469862/hawaiian-legislators-call-ea-loot-boxes-a-predatory-practice-star-wars-battlefront-ii-mmorpg/p3#2UyJTeeZYjhyUPxM.99
    This argument misses out on the fact that there are likely 300% more gamers. . or double that even depending on what you look at and digital distribution compared to the cost of distribution before.  Companies are making more money. . not less and that happened before DLC / loot boxes.

    Yes, things could cost more to make BUT they are not having the same cost to get to the many many more customers around the entire globe.  How many people bought Super Mario bros 2 on release compared to how many will buy Star wars battle front 2?   
    Here you go.  Look at the NA sales vs world. . and the numbers.   
    SWBattlefront  14 million copies by May 2016 
    Nintento and other console makers also had to recover R&D costs. . consoles now are based on already existing PC parts. 

    SUper mario bros 2 (mario has the one of the best sales records in history and there wasn't much competition)

    North America:5.39m72.2%
    + Europe:1.18m15.8%
    + Japan:0.70m9.4%
    + Rest of the World:0.19m2.6%

    My point is that you can argue inflation on its own but you can't consider the impact in money making without considering sales and distribution.  

    Saying games are more expensive than ever to make is misleading when you don't say that  the companies are making more than ever on them.

    EDIT:  I am late to the party on this post :)
    The problem with your argument is until a game hits peak sales any profit is speculation (it's not a guarantee)... Costs however are not probable in that way.... They're pretty much set in stone. That's why inflation matters...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Distopia said:
    You're an odd duck Gdem... Can't even see when someone is actually agreeing with you...LMAO...
    /sigh

    On these boards, I would thought that is actually good thing...
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,927
    edited November 2017
    kitarad said:
    If it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck .....
    We're liable to spend 16 pages arguing on whether it's a cow.
     
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