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(updated!) Authorities looking at regulating RNG as gambling

MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
edited November 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
// UPDATE

 http://www.pcgamer.com/belgium-says-loot-boxes-are-gambling-wants-them-banned-in-europe/

Belgium confirms loot boxes are gambling, and is pushing to ban them from Europe altogether.

US waking up against loot boxes as well:




// ORIGINAL

As seen here: https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-wars-battlefront-2/battlefront-2-loot-box-gambling-belgium-gaming-commission

I would just say it's about time, perhaps this will be the first steps that will start to regulate the unregulated gambling extravaganza that we know as Loot Boxes.

You can see that EA already came in defensive saying their loot crates are not gambling, Blizzard still to comment on it. I hope this goes forward because only legal regulations can defeat the paid RNG monetization trend.
Post edited by MaxBacon on
GdemamiZenJellyAsm0deusYaevinduskRhoklawJeffSpicoliJacobinSiugHatefullcheyaneand 1 other.
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Comments

  • CleffyCleffy Member RarePosts: 6,086
    I think it would be a mess if countries start treating it as gambling, but it will be a way to end this practice as most companies would not want to deal with it.
    PsYcHoGBRZenJelly
  • CoatedCoated Member UncommonPosts: 477
    There should be legal regulations on it. If not that, then these gaming companies need to be taxed the shit out of like any other Casino. That is all these games are now, giant Casino's.
    RexKushmanPsYcHoGBRAsm0deusAsmodeuXXodicYaevinduskOzmodanJacobinWalkinGlennSteelhelmand 8 others.
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,580
    MaxBacon said:

    I hope this goes forward because only legal regulations can defeat the paid RNG monetization trend.
    It won't though. All they'll do is build the game around the new regulations. Loot boxes aren't going anywhere in AAA titles.
    OzmodanPsym0n

    image
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,783
    I hope so.
    ZenJelly
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    immodium said:
    It won't though. All they'll do is build the game around the new regulations. Loot boxes aren't going anywhere in AAA titles.
    All it would take is EU itself to get involved and put out regulations for it, when Valve pushed it they fined the hell out of them. So I think it's about getting the issue being discussed in the right places and then things get to happen.
    GdemamiZenJellyOzmodanCogohiHatefull
  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 747
    By law in Belgium for a game to be considered gambling one must be able to lose one's money ( the wager)

    so  online casinos and more recently CS:GO item wagering is considered gambling in belgium because one can lose what they wager and walk away with nothing


    in loot boxes one never walks away with nothing, one can get something undesirable, but one will always get something.



    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    immodiumConstantineMerusRexKushmanOzmodanMrMelGibsonCogohiHatefull
  • Zeppel80Zeppel80 Member UncommonPosts: 74
    Any time the government gets involved in anything, it's bad.  Don't play games with loot boxes and the problem is solved. 
    Amystia
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,580
    edited November 2017
    sayuu said:
    By law in Belgium for a game to be considered gambling one must be able to lose one's money ( the wager)

    so  online casinos and more recently CS:GO item wagering is considered gambling in belgium because one can lose what they wager and walk away with nothing


    in loot boxes one never walks away with nothing, one can get something undesirable, but one will always get something.



    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    They may get it on some other technicality. It's Belgium afterall, the heart of the corrupt and pathetic European Union. Anything can happen.
    GdemamiRexKushmansome-clueless-guyRhoklawWalkinGlennSiug

    image
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    sayuu said:
    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    That seems to be getting reviewed.

    If this growing trend continues, the future will be something like... Remember those days where we could buy what we wanted via microtransactions instead of gambling for it? :neutral:
    Gdemamisayuu
  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 747
    MaxBacon said:
    sayuu said:
    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    That seems to be getting reviewed.

    If this growing trend continues, the future will be something like... Remember those days where we could buy what we wanted via microtransactions instead of gambling for it? :neutral:
    no it is not, the study is to see if loot boxes fall under the online gambling ban prescribed by current law.

    it is not a review of the gambling laws themselves.


    belgium is not changing law to get rid of loot boxes.


    and  nice slippery slope fallacy at the end there. . .
    MaxBaconRexKushman
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 919
    edited November 2017
    Every time government tried to fix anything, it ended making it worse.
    RexKushmanHatefulladderVXI
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,918
    sayuu said:
    By law in Belgium for a game to be considered gambling one must be able to lose one's money ( the wager)

    so  online casinos and more recently CS:GO item wagering is considered gambling in belgium because one can lose what they wager and walk away with nothing


    in loot boxes one never walks away with nothing, one can get something undesirable, but one will always get something.



    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    If it were that simple, lottery wouldn't be gambling because you'll get the lottery ticket (physical item) in exchange for your money.
    sayuuRexKushmanshalissarMrMelGibson
     
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,199
    Zeppel80 said:
    Any time the government gets involved in anything, it's bad.  Don't play games with loot boxes and the problem is solved. 
    Except it's not quite as you portray it.  There are ALREADY rules and regulations about gambling in most places.   What happened is that the game companies created something that many believe is gambling, but the companies say are not.   These games are targeted at kids.

    Lets get a ruling on whether they are legally considered gambling. If so... get them the fuck out of kids games.

    GdemamiAsm0deusNildenMrMelGibsonCogohi

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

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    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 747
    edited November 2017
    Vrika said:
    sayuu said:
    By law in Belgium for a game to be considered gambling one must be able to lose one's money ( the wager)

    so  online casinos and more recently CS:GO item wagering is considered gambling in belgium because one can lose what they wager and walk away with nothing


    in loot boxes one never walks away with nothing, one can get something undesirable, but one will always get something.



    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    If it were that simple, lottery wouldn't be gambling because you'll get the lottery ticket (physical item) in exchange for your money.
    but a lottery ticket has no value if one loses. . .so one loses the cost ( or wager ) used to purchase the ticket. . .



    . . .it is that simple, I don't write law. . .but I know how to read.


    maybe you should go read the relevant belgian laws??
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    sayuu said:
    no it is not, the study is to see if loot boxes fall under the online gambling ban prescribed by current law.

    it is not a review of the gambling laws themselves.


    belgium is not changing law to get rid of loot boxes.


    and  nice slippery slope fallacy at the end there. . .
    That's what I meant, is getting reviewed you don't need to change the law but the regulations need to "thick more boxes". Also the end was a joke, not sure if this agressive vibe you just transmitted is intentional or not --'



    Gdemami
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    Except it's not quite as you portray it.  There are ALREADY rules and regulations about gambling in most places.   What happened is that the game companies created something that many believe is gambling, but the companies say are not.   These games are targeted at kids.

    Lets get a ruling on whether they are legally considered gambling. If so... get them the fuck out of kids games.

    The problematic part is indeed the fact these games do fall in one underage rating. 

    And I think people would agree the way these loot crates are presented in many games can create one addiction that we could call gambling.

    It's a big reason of why I feel it should be properly regulated.
    GdemamiRexKushmanAsm0deus
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,918
    sayuu said:
    Vrika said:
    sayuu said:
    By law in Belgium for a game to be considered gambling one must be able to lose one's money ( the wager)

    so  online casinos and more recently CS:GO item wagering is considered gambling in belgium because one can lose what they wager and walk away with nothing


    in loot boxes one never walks away with nothing, one can get something undesirable, but one will always get something.



    so by current  law in belgium loot boxes are not gambling. . .
    If it were that simple, lottery wouldn't be gambling because you'll get the lottery ticket (physical item) in exchange for your money.
    but a lottery ticket has no value if one loses. . .so one loses the cost ( or wager ) used to purchase the ticket. . .



    . . .it is that simple, I don't write law. . .but I know how to read.


    maybe you should go read the relevant belgian laws??
    Then do all the items in those loot boxes have a value? How is value determined in the first place? How large must the value be so that the wager isn't considered lost?


    Don't you think the Belgian officials have read the relevant laws before launching the investigation. Whether they rule it as a gambling or not, they wouldn't be investigating if there weren't anything to investigate.
    Gdemami
     
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,800
    Vrika said:
    Then do all the items in those loot boxes have a value? 
    Value =/= cost...
    MaxBacon
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    edited November 2017
    Gdemami said:
    Value =/= cost...
    Says who?

    So if I open a casino, and always give people apples when they don't win money, and put the apples as of equal value to your cost... Am I excluded from gambling regulations? :D 
    GdemamiRedempshalissar
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,800
    edited November 2017
    MaxBacon said:
    Says who? 
    Any economics lesson taught at secondary school.... Heck, I bet some decent elementary school teach you that...

    MaxBacon said:
    All the items you get from a loot box are "legally" worth the money you spent so you **haven't** lost any money?
    You purchase a loot box at $5.
    Anything that is in the loot box has precisely same cost $5.
    Not all items in the loot box will have same value.

    Therefore no gambling.
    MaxBaconMadFrenchieIselinRexKushmanCogohi
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    Gdemami said:
    Any economics lesson tought on secondary school...
    Now my second question. :p
  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 747
    MaxBacon said:
    sayuu said:
    no it is not, the study is to see if loot boxes fall under the online gambling ban prescribed by current law.

    it is not a review of the gambling laws themselves.


    belgium is not changing law to get rid of loot boxes.


    and  nice slippery slope fallacy at the end there. . .
    That's what I meant, is getting reviewed you don't need to change the law but the regulations need to "thick more boxes". Also the end was a joke, not sure if this agressive vibe you just transmitted is intentional or not --'



    the point you are failing to grasp or that I am failing to explain properly is that belgium commissioned a study to see if loot boxes are gambling or not and that ( in my informed opinion) by current law that study will find that the aforementioned boxes are not gambling as defined by existing belgian law.


    the study is not to find the effects of loot boxes on consumers or if it leads to real gambling, and therefore the law needs to be changes to include it. like they did with CS:GO  item wagering.









    P.S. I am sorry you are so sensitive that facts and reasoned discourse seem aggressive simply because they challenge your worldview. . . 



    WalkinGlennMaxBacon
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,918
    Gdemami said:
    Vrika said:
    Then do all the items in those loot boxes have a value? 
    Value =/= cost...
    If I though they were equal I wouldn't have asked about the value of items in lootboxes. Determining that value (from legal point of view) is so hard question because they're not equal.
    Gdemami
     
  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,123
    They gonna review of lootboxes falls under gambling.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,800
    edited November 2017
    Vrika said:
    If I though they were equal I wouldn't have asked 
    ...if you understood the difference, you wouldn't be asking in the first place.
    MadFrenchie
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