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Poking around your own files can get you banned.

RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153
So basically if I understand everything correctly looking at your own files on your hard-drive can get you banned from BDO?

https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?threads/notice-enforcement-for-violation-of-tos.95098/

Basically Bloo the user who posted about hidden stats got Perma banned from BDO for discovering hidden stats in the game and posting them.

But the company said he violated 8.2 of the Terms OF Service which states you can't disassemble, or reverse engineer the games files, however the person did not reverse engineer or disassemble files.

https://www.blackdesertonline.com/legal/terms-of-use  Terms OF Service Here

https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/7c91bz/my_thoughts_on_kakaopearl_abyss_ban_on_bloo/  Reddit Post Here.

At least there has been no censorship as of yet from Kakao, but I am curious to why a person would get banned from BDO for simply giving out information about hidden stats which Kako has already admit here that the files in the directory / drive were already unpacked, so the person did not have to decompile, or reverse engineer anything?

https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/544?lang=en

BDO Executive Producer’s Letter to the NA/EU Adventurers 16 November 2017 16:50

Greetings Adventurers

This is the Black Desert Online team.


As many of you may be aware,

we’ve had an occurrence recently regarding unpacked files that had been disclosed publicly which may have whiffled up some of our loyalest supporters.


We have confirmed that the unpacked information contained undisclosed data but also discarded data that had not, have not, and will not make it into our game.

We want to take this time to sincerely apologize for muddling up confusion among our beloved players by failing to deliver accurate information.


Black Desert Online will improve on the unclarity regarding Accuracy, Evasion, Damage Reduction and keep away from ambiguous terms like ‘dramatically or slightly increased’ in the item descriptions to provide the specific details.


Please read on to the Developer’s Letter written by Jae-hee Kim, the Executive Producer of Black Desert Online below.

Lets see if the developers of Black Desert keep their word or not about making stats clear to the public or not, as for Bloo, I hear there is some type of in game protest not sure if that is true or whats up with that.
Gdemami

Comments

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153


    BDO NA_Calpheon1 Free Bloo protest 
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    "your own files"

    When you download a game it does not give you the right to hack the files.

    Yes I know it happens....doesn't change anything.


  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153
    "your own files"

    When you download a game it does not give you the right to hack the files.

    Yes I know it happens....doesn't change anything.


    He didn't hack files though he simply went into his drive and took a look at them as anyone else who would such as myself who is concerned about security of their computers.

    By Own files I don't mean he owned rights to the files or Copyright anything like that just the files on his own drive.

    The developers clearly admit that the files were unpacked, and all he did was go into his directory and look unless I am missing something if he was a cheater there is no way there would be over 50 people here at the protest, or a long reddit post luckily he is more popular than I was getting kicked from that other game.
    Gdemami
  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    The problem isn't that he looked at the files. It's that he stupidly opened his mouth and posted about them online. When will people learn to shut their traps? 
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153
    edited November 2017
    Moirae said:
    The problem isn't that he looked at the files. It's that he stupidly opened his mouth and posted about them online. When will people learn to shut their traps? 
    Yeah so I vote no censorship <3 he didn't do anything wrong but create a spreadsheet.

    https://www.twitch.tv/lacari



    ^ More on the protest.



    ^ This is the spreadsheet that was censored / removed from google, nothing illegal just stats people make these all the time especially in games like EVE Online.
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,264
    edited November 2017
    He ran afoul of two specific clauses from the TOS which I've posted below.

    Specifically his actions fall under "attempt to discover" and please stop being dishonest about why anyone would spend their time searching through hundreds if not thousands of game files, he was mining them for game information.

    In terms of revealing behind the scenes stats, the game's developers aka owners do not want to publish them. (and many stats players in other gamed publish are inferred, and not actually from the game itself.)

    It doesn't matter that players want to see them, nor whether other companies publish them, this company does not wish to.

    As mentioned before, even if he was looking for malicious software,  he should not have published the unencrypted game data (aka the code) in a spreadsheet, doing so violated his "contract" with them, hence the termination. 

    This is very much like discovering an exploit in the game, the proper response is to report the issue to the devs, not take advantage of it yourself nor share info about the exploit to others.

    From 8.2
    "the User may not reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or attempt to discover or modify in any way the underlying source code of Game or of any part of it."

    The proscribed punishment for doing so is also clear.

    From 8.3
    "The violation by the User of the Game Licensing terms set forth in Article 8.1. (Rights granted to the User), 8.2. (License restrictions) and 8.3. (Reservation of rights and ownership) of the Agreement shall qualify as a Default under Article 17.3. (Termination for cause) of the Agreement and justify the permanent ban of any involved Account as well as any Account owned by the User and the immediate termination of the Agreement for cause by Kakao Games Europe."
    HorusralaxieConstantineMerusbartoni33

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ByrgenarHofenByrgenarHofen Member UncommonPosts: 55
    Just more crap from the OP trying to justify cheating to be honest.
    All I have seen from the OP are post's complaining about anti cheat software, complaints about being banned due to being caught cheating, and complaints about other people being banned for something that is against a games ToS/EULA.
    All the while claiming to not like cheats....lol
    HorusraKyleranMrMelGibsonMikehaBad.dog
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Renoaku said:
    The developers clearly admit that the files were unpacked
    ...source?
  • WylfWylf Member UncommonPosts: 376
    DMKano said:
    Client files get datamined all the time...

    If Pearl Abyss really wants to keep these stats secret - don't leave them in client files for petes sake...


    Pretty much sums it up. This is a BS move on the part Pearl Abyss.
    GdemamiKyleran
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,115
    This situation is a gray area at best.

    Everquest 2, for example, had all of its music files placed in a folder. This obviously doesn't mean you can just take them and share them on the internet. You don't have the right to redistribute the data of a game - parts of the game data (like stats hidden in a file) would presumably still fall under this.

    Many companies don't make it a bannable offense though. It's a given that if you leave stuff in the client, it is potentially public knowledge. As you say, some people enjoy putting together all the stats. I suppose it's part of gameplay to a degree. That said, most of the stats you see on Wikis are player research though - people find this stuff out by playing in-game.
    MikehaKyleran
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,178
    edited November 2017
    laxie said:

    This situation is a gray area at best.

    Everquest 2, for example, had all of its music files placed in a folder. This obviously doesn't mean you can just take them and share them on the internet. You don't have the right to redistribute the data of a game - parts of the game data (like stats hidden in a file) would presumably still fall under this.
    Telling others about how the game mechanics work is fair use of the copyrighted data. You're allowed to do it regardless of copyright.
    GdemamiConstantineMerusKyleran
     
  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Moirae said:
    The problem isn't that he looked at the files. It's that he stupidly opened his mouth and posted about them online. When will people learn to shut their traps? 
    People can't check their ego at the door.  They have to let the world know what they did or what they know.  Even beyond trivially petty stuff like this, people brag about or even post videos of serious crimes on social media.  Law enforcement love it.

    MrMelGibsonbartoni33

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153
    edited November 2017
    Gdemami said:
    Renoaku said:
    The developers clearly admit that the files were unpacked
    ...source?
    https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/544?lang=en

    Right here in like the first paragraph of their post says that the files were already unpacked.

    Could be true as I was reading other posts on here that the guy was actually decompile or something, or datamining, but we can't see this and the company just told everyone that they were unpacked files that were disclosed.

    Also the guy either created or just upload a spreadsheet with numbers on it, I don't see why this would get a person ban for life from a game, sure it wasn't me who got ban but how can a spreadsheet of information about a game be so illegal?

    And if it was really damaging or exploiting why is there like over 100+ people at the calpheon protest asking for the server issues to be fixed, and Unban Bloo?

    Then you got posts on the internet asking why players intentionally exploiting are not perma banned for example the guy who stream himself putting multiple workers on a single node which can disrupt the entire economy, while another gets ban for life just for making a spreadsheet that many people do including another person who does information on gathering times with workers and which workers are best for example.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/6n4a5s/why_is_bladeboques_not_permanently_banned/
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited November 2017
    Renoaku said:
    Right here in like the first paragraph of their post says that the files were already unpacked.
    Erm no, they don't.

    They say that unpacked files contained certain information, not that files were 'not-packed'.

    Like said in reddit post you linked talked about unpacking files that were under weak/broken encryption. By all means doing so was breaking EULA.
    Quizar1973MrMelGibson
  • Dagon13Dagon13 Member UncommonPosts: 566
    edited November 2017
    DMKano said:
    Client files get datamined all the time.

    No its not surprising and yes its against the eula, but client datamining is something that all developers know about and are fully aware of.

    If Pearl Abyss really wants to keep these stats secret - dont leave them in client files for petes sake.

    Sure they can enforce their own EULA but this fuck up is squarely on them.

    Also IMO hidden stats are shite, so this is great work ok behalf of bdobloo.



    Agreed.  This has arguably been a big part of gaming since the cartridge era and large developers like Blizzard even encourage it by hiding teasers for people to find.  This is entirely on Pearl Abyss.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,264
    edited November 2017
    Dagon13 said:
    DMKano said:
    Client files get datamined all the time.

    No its not surprising and yes its against the eula, but client datamining is something that all developers know about and are fully aware of.

    If Pearl Abyss really wants to keep these stats secret - dont leave them in client files for petes sake.

    Sure they can enforce their own EULA but this fuck up is squarely on them.

    Also IMO hidden stats are shite, so this is great work ok behalf of bdobloo.



    Agreed.  This has arguably been a big part of gaming since the cartridge era and large developers like Blizzard even encourage it by hiding teasers for people to find.  This is entirely on Pearl Abyss.
    No, it is not arguable. The devs did not wish to publish this info, it is their right to prevent it and punish those who break the TOS which is quite clear on this.

    It does not matter what other companies chose to do or what some players want.

    These are not inalienable rights, gamers seem to forget this.


    Quizar1973ConstantineMerusMrMelGibsonForgrimm

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153
    edited November 2017
    Kyleran said:
    Dagon13 said:
    DMKano said:
    Client files get datamined all the time.

    No its not surprising and yes its against the eula, but client datamining is something that all developers know about and are fully aware of.

    If Pearl Abyss really wants to keep these stats secret - dont leave them in client files for petes sake.

    Sure they can enforce their own EULA but this fuck up is squarely on them.

    Also IMO hidden stats are shite, so this is great work ok behalf of bdobloo.



    Agreed.  This has arguably been a big part of gaming since the cartridge era and large developers like Blizzard even encourage it by hiding teasers for people to find.  This is entirely on Pearl Abyss.
    No, it is not arguable. The devs did not wish to publish this info, it is their right to prevent it and punish those who break the TOS which is quite clear on this.

    It does not matter what other companies chose to do or what some players want.

    These are not inalienable rights, gamers seem to forget this.


    Yes but I am confused about 8.2 of The Terms & Conditions of Black Desert, it says that users may not reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or attempt to discover or mdofiy in any way the underlying source code of the game or of any part of it.

    Looking at the files on your own drive even if he did in fact use a compressed file viewer isn't reverse engineering, decompile, or disassembling right?

    Because I've read both including a lot of Reddit arguments and protests that say he didn't violate 8.2, and sure the compnay may not have wanted information published, but they shouldn't have left it in the game for anyone to be able to go look at, and make spreadsheets for that matter.

    The company can try to censor the already leaked spreadsheets, but before they were censored I had them all downloaded into my own personal spreadsheet, as well as another public spreadsheet that can be found here, obviously these can't be illegal?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SXKyuvAO36ZJPe-4q_pp6too6Fnrq9Gs9mKcnUUcotc/edit#gid=523729641

    But question is why the other people who have knowingly used exploits that have damaged the economy in black desert such as multiple workers on a single node not banned for life?
    Gdemami
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited November 2017
    They are not your files,funny how law completely protects the seller but not the buyer when comes to gaming.

    You own NOTHING,funny we also call it a sale...looks at receipt,yep says i purchased the item,well then why don't i own the item?You might own the package"barely"not even the art on the package is yours,ok so you actually only own the cardboard and the plastic wrapper.

    keyword>>>Lawyers and of course the reason/interest.No gamer has a reason or viable interest to go out and start hiring lawyers to create laws on their behalf,it is not viable and too costly,however for the developers it is most certainly viable to hire lawyers and gain as much power over the laws as possible.

    Law needs to change in a huge way when comes to gaming,it is still a rather new entity and as i stated,there is no viable interest for the consumer as an individual,the laws need to change to encompass all of consumers.

    Bottom line is that we may be 50 years waiting,maybe NEVER in hopes of creating a fair world between business and consumer and employees,even the First Amendment only encompasses government/public and not privately run entities.


    Kyleranbartoni33BruceYeecentkin

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    In the end, he didn't stumble on that information magically. He purposely was digging for hidden information about the game.

    That is not a mistake, so the ban is warranted.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 39,264
    Renoaku said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dagon13 said:
    DMKano said:
    Client files get datamined all the time.

    No its not surprising and yes its against the eula, but client datamining is something that all developers know about and are fully aware of.

    If Pearl Abyss really wants to keep these stats secret - dont leave them in client files for petes sake.

    Sure they can enforce their own EULA but this fuck up is squarely on them.

    Also IMO hidden stats are shite, so this is great work ok behalf of bdobloo.



    Agreed.  This has arguably been a big part of gaming since the cartridge era and large developers like Blizzard even encourage it by hiding teasers for people to find.  This is entirely on Pearl Abyss.
    No, it is not arguable. The devs did not wish to publish this info, it is their right to prevent it and punish those who break the TOS which is quite clear on this.

    It does not matter what other companies chose to do or what some players want.

    These are not inalienable rights, gamers seem to forget this.


    Yes but I am confused about 8.2 of The Terms & Conditions of Black Desert, it says that users may not reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, or attempt to discover or mdofiy in any way the underlying source code of the game or of any part of it.

    Looking at the files on your own drive even if he did in fact use a compressed file viewer isn't reverse engineering, decompile, or disassembling right?

    Because I've read both including a lot of Reddit arguments and protests that say he didn't violate 8.2, and sure the compnay may not have wanted information published, but they shouldn't have left it in the game for anyone to be able to go look at, and make spreadsheets for that matter.

    The company can try to censor the already leaked spreadsheets, but before they were censored I had them all downloaded into my own personal spreadsheet, as well as another public spreadsheet that can be found here, obviously these can't be illegal?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SXKyuvAO36ZJPe-4q_pp6too6Fnrq9Gs9mKcnUUcotc/edit#gid=523729641

    But question is why the other people who have knowingly used exploits that have damaged the economy in black desert such as multiple workers on a single node not banned for life?
    1) he violated the part "attempt to discover in any way "
    2) Doesn't matter if info was mistakenly left in the game files,  players are instructed not to look for it.  No different than when the rules say you can't reveal details of an in game exploit, or share information covered by an NDA.
    3) The TOS states actions such as exploiting node mechanics are punishable by anything from a warning, temporary bans, and even permanent ones.  It does not say it is mandatory that they perma ban for exploits, but it clearly states one and only one penalty for violating 8.2, permaban.

    It doesn't matter why other rules are enforced differently,  or perhaps not at all,  just not relevant to this specific scenario.

    Now, if players can identify someone else who did similar code hack who was treated differently then maybe there is some grounds for complaints about unfairness,  but even in legal cases laws and punishments can vary widely for the same infraction.
    ByrgenarHofen

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,513
    edited November 2017
    Games are a loan like car leases. If you mess with the parts of a leased car without permission from the real owner(dealer) you'd be screwed the same way that guy is. It is tricky for game companies to make people believe they are buying something cause that would mean you actually own it which is not really true. Purchasing stocks in the company putting out the game would make you more of an owner, kind of.
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,153
    Yeah well hopefully with the amount of pressure they are getting from both KR, and US players he will get his account back because I think its stupid still.

    Also what is so confusing about 8.2 is the way I understand it its telling me I may not attempt to modify the source code, to get a source code don't you have to be like a developer or actually decompile a game, like my friend codes stuff and I look at source codes as its developed and I don't think anyone could do that by just using a unpacker to view a spreadsheet or something they left in the game.

    I do think the company has more to lose by keeping him banned though <3
    GdemamiRexKushman
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