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What the crap, still no Beta ETA?

MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
I just checked in on CU for the first time in several months.  As far as I can tell, there's still not even an ETA on when the Beta will be released.  I know the backers of this game are extraordinarily forgiving of the (years-long) delays, and it makes you feel better when Mark Jacobs stops by with soothing words, but...Isn't anyone else wondering if something behind the scenes has gone very wrong?
JamesGoblinNordicApache
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Comments

  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,279
    edited November 2017
    The only thing that really has gone wrong is that the company keeps telling people that Beta 1 or the announcement of Beta 1 are coming "soon" when in reality they have proven unable to estimate dates at all accurately.

    They should just be quiet about dates and should only report progress that is being made on the game until they have an actual firm date to report.
    francis_baudJamesGoblinNordicApache

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    I've become far less forgiving with the lack of any sort of high level timelines.

    Even if the final release date is still murky, this far into the project (4.5+ yrs) there's no good reason to not have a published beta 1 date.

    Well unless of course they've run into an insurmountable design blocker.

    Happened on a major project where I work and we ended up scrapping the entire solution and starting over. Delayed the delivery by 3+ years which was handled by a different mgmt team.


    YashaX

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  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
    I guess that's the stance they're taking now.  Someone hire these guys a publisher, and maybe we'll see the game release by 2020...
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,012
    MJ spoke of them having a hard time recruiting people which was why they were going to open an office in seattle. Their original schedule was also built in fantasyland where they would be fully staffed on day 1 and no-one has a day off until release.
    JamesGoblin
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
    Shaigh said:
    MJ spoke of them having a hard time recruiting people which was why they were going to open an office in seattle. Their original schedule was also built in fantasyland where they would be fully staffed on day 1 and no-one has a day off until release.

    I gotta ask, what kind of developer would come up with that kind of original schedule to begin with?  Someone with wildly unrealistic expectations, maybe?
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Shaigh said:
    MJ spoke of them having a hard time recruiting people which was why they were going to open an office in seattle. Their original schedule was also built in fantasyland where they would be fully staffed on day 1 and no-one has a day off until release.

    I gotta ask, what kind of developer would come up with that kind of original schedule to begin with?  Someone with wildly unrealistic expectations, maybe?
    Together with unrealistic gamer expectations kickstarter is a perfect fit.
    JamesGoblinNordicApache
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
    edited November 2017
    If you're a backer, it might be worth your time to do a little digging on the CU forums.  Looks like Mark Jacobs is starting to lose his shit about people discussing the delays.  He basically says, either drop it, or GTFO of the forums.  You guys think that's a good sign?
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,662
    Shaigh said:
    MJ spoke of them having a hard time recruiting people which was why they were going to open an office in seattle. Their original schedule was also built in fantasyland where they would be fully staffed on day 1 and no-one has a day off until release.

    This is why you don't open game dev studios in cities that don't have a strong game dev presence - ehm Fairfax Virginia is not exactly a hotbed for video game studios.

    NordicApacheKyleranMitaraYashaX
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,662
    edited November 2017
    If you're a backer, it might be worth your time to do a little digging on the CU forums.  Looks like Mark Jacobs is starting to lose his shit about people discussing the delays.  He basically says, either drop it, or GTFO of the forums.  You guys think that's a good sign?  Sounds like some SotA panic mode stuff to me.

    Delays are extremely frustrating for game studios - most people in his shoes would have lost their shit already.

    Game development is a HARSH business, it's brutal and completely unforgiving - you have a fanbase that is screaming "now now now now" and if it's not completely awesome will be flushing your game down the toilet and will scream "this sucks" a second later.

    You can go from being "I love these devs, they listen" to "these guys are completely clueless - can't wait to see them all fired" - in less than 1 hour from the SAME playerbase.

    Not awesome?

    I am surprised that MJ has been taken his time for this long to address the forums directly - because there is no winning for him - the outcome will always be a shitstorm in the end, because inevitably someone gets upset and starts shitting down the devs throat at every turn they see.

    Now having said all that - open development is super crappy for the devs in terms of being open with deadlines - especially when there are lots of delays.

    It kills the hype and player interest which for an unlaunched game can be absolutely lethal.

    The only way to keep open dev successful is to give constant "tangible positive progress" to the playerbase - and IMO you have to have a playable game, so that way players see first hand constant features/content being added which will keep them interested and keep them spreading the word.

    The problem is iteration times have to be crazy fast - like every couple of weeks or less if possible.

    SovrathmeddyckCrazKanukTorvalYashaX
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
    Just surprised to see him attempting to edit what the backers talk about on the forums.  Seems like a big departure from how they have handled things in the past.  They must truly be feeling the pressure.
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,303
    Be patient.  People always say that the makers keep rushing their games and putting out crap.  Finally, some have listened and taking their time to get it right.  They should be lauded for not rushing and not chided.  Patience, I say.
    JamesGoblinKyleran

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,119
    edited November 2017
    mgilbrtsn said:
    Be patient.  People always say that the makers keep rushing their games and putting out crap.  Finally, some have listened and taking their time to get it right.  They should be lauded for not rushing and not chided.  Patience, I say.
    Yeah the huge lack of patience when stuff gets rushed people get even angrier and move on to rant at someone else to hurry up.

    Every time we saw crowdfunded/indie projects rushing releases to prevent gamers to get extra salty about it, they only got saltier because what they got was so early and raw, so it's a loose/loose situation.

    JamesGoblin
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    DMKano said:
    Shaigh said:
    MJ spoke of them having a hard time recruiting people which was why they were going to open an office in seattle. Their original schedule was also built in fantasyland where they would be fully staffed on day 1 and no-one has a day off until release.

    This is why you don't open game dev studios in cities that don't have a strong game dev presence - ehm Fairfax Virginia is not exactly a hotbed for video game studios.


    Same goes for Rhode Island! They don't have any there either ;)
    JamesGoblinNordicApache

    Crazkanuk

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  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,279
    edited November 2017
    Kyleran said:
    I've become far less forgiving with the lack of any sort of high level timelines.

    Even if the final release date is still murky, this far into the project (4.5+ yrs) there's no good reason to not have a published beta 1 date.

    Well unless of course they've run into an insurmountable design blocker.

    Happened on a major project where I work and we ended up scrapping the entire solution and starting over. Delayed the delivery by 3+ years which was handled by a different mgmt team.


    They've already blown right past several vague beta 1 dates (winter 2016, end of summer 2016, etc.). There's no reason to think another published beta 1 date would be any different. I prefer having the date just be "when we complete all the items on our Beta 1 feature list" rather than some estimated date that will inevitably be missed.

    I'm as frustrated as everybody else that the game hasn't launched or even entered Beta 1 yet. But most of the reasons for that are well known by now: the decision to make their own engine and their difficulty hiring programmers who are willing to move to Fairfax, VA. We all knew about their intent to make their own engine when we backed and they finally solved the programmer issue a year or so ago by opening the Seattle office. Getting a refund or continuing to wait are really the only options for backers.
    JamesGoblinfrancis_baud

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 240
    meddyck said:
    They should just be quiet about dates and should only report progress that is being made on the game until they have an actual firm date to report.
    Agreed. Hopefully they will continue to refrain from announcing a date (or hinting that it's coming "soon"). Actually I think that "soon" should be banned from CSE vocabulary.  :p

    What the backers want first and foremost IMO is the ability to play a fun game and CSE seems to be heading that way with all the focus on the Saturday Night Sieges.


    JamesGoblin
  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 510
    no,not worried at all. Because if i wanted a rushed cash grab with micro transactions and loot boxes we have the triple A games industry for that!
    JamesGoblin
  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 240
    DMKano said:

    I am surprised that MJ has been taken his time for this long to address the forums directly - because there is no winning for him - the outcome will always be a shitstorm in the end, because inevitably someone gets upset and starts shitting down the devs throat at every turn they see.

    The winning comes from the special relationship Mark and his team have built over the years with their fans. CSE has a lot of allies and friends, people willing to protect the studio and be understanding / patient when things don't go as planned. This relationship is invaluable and no matter the outcome with CU (I'm confident that it's going to be a resounding success), I'm sure it was worth it to directly deal with the fans, especially during the shitstorms.  :p
    JamesGoblin
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I just checked in on CU for the first time in several months.  As far as I can tell, there's still not even an ETA on when the Beta will be released.  I know the backers of this game are extraordinarily forgiving of the (years-long) delays, and it makes you feel better when Mark Jacobs stops by with soothing words, but...Isn't anyone else wondering if something behind the scenes has gone very wrong?
    if your not a backer why would you care?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,651
    SEANMCAD said:
    I just checked in on CU for the first time in several months.  As far as I can tell, there's still not even an ETA on when the Beta will be released.  I know the backers of this game are extraordinarily forgiving of the (years-long) delays, and it makes you feel better when Mark Jacobs stops by with soothing words, but...Isn't anyone else wondering if something behind the scenes has gone very wrong?
    if your not a backer why would you care?
    It's "you're."  And, I've been a backer for years.
  • GynthaziGynthazi Member UncommonPosts: 41
    For those that don't know, they DID run into massive design issues. A lot of code had to get scrapped and re-written, and a lead engineer was fired for his incompetence (sorry,  it was a mutual separation). MJ is throwing a lot of personal money into this project as well, and as others have stated he expended into a Seattle office to get more talent (which he has now).

    Delays suck, but stuff happens with indie-type games. At the end of the day for an "indie" game no one should be more relied on than MJ. He's going to get it done, and its going to be right. At least he has what.. 20? years of success as a producer. Hell DAoC is STILL being played by some.

    look through the website, the beta 1 doc on there, and all the weekly updates they do. Trust me when I say they are not sitting on their thumbs.

    I want it done too, but i'd rather have it done right. I'm Beta 1 and am dying to really dive in... hopefully *SOON* 
    francis_baud

    >>> Gynthazi <<<
    "Every man is a divinity in disguise, a God playing the fool." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 240
    Just surprised to see him attempting to edit what the backers talk about on the forums.  Seems like a big departure from how they have handled things in the past.  They must truly be feeling the pressure.
    It seems pretty much in line with how CSE handled the forums in the past. I see nothing surprising with them asking the users to stop beating the dead horse and repeating over and over again that they're late on Beta 1. They've apologized like... 200 times already and even if we keep reminding them it's not going to change anything to the fact that Beta 1 has been delayed.

    Overall though I prefer the forums in which we're allowed to discuss whatever we want, but it's up to CSE to make the rules and up to me to visit this place or not.
    JamesGoblin
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,871
    meddyck said:
    The only thing that really has gone wrong is that the company keeps telling people that Beta 1 or the announcement of Beta 1 are coming "soon" when in reality they have proven unable to estimate dates at all accurately.

    They should just be quiet about dates and should only report progress that is being made on the game until they have an actual firm date to report.
    The problem with that is if you're not reporting something than there's an empty space of information.  Next thing you know rumors start to spring up and there are a lot of fires to be put out.  People start demanding to know if the rumors are true. Better to give some type of information even if it turns out to need to be changed than to say nothing.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,871
    edited November 2017
    With AAA studios the upper management does the rushing.  With crowd funding that gap is usually filled by the crowds.  Most developers are very good at making games but aren't good overall managers.  They have a lot to figure out as they go along.  Not to mention the ethical problem of being in charge of large sums of money with no one really checking to see how you spend it.
    francis_baudRusqueMadFrenchie

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,279
    meddyck said:
    The only thing that really has gone wrong is that the company keeps telling people that Beta 1 or the announcement of Beta 1 are coming "soon" when in reality they have proven unable to estimate dates at all accurately.

    They should just be quiet about dates and should only report progress that is being made on the game until they have an actual firm date to report.
    The problem with that is if you're not reporting something than there's an empty space of information.  Next thing you know rumors start to spring up and there are a lot of fires to be put out.  People start demanding to know if the rumors are true. Better to give some type of information even if it turns out to need to be changed than to say nothing.
    CSE gives out almost too much information about what they are working on in every Friday's update. Not talking about dates doesn't mean they stop talking about the work they are doing.
    JamesGoblinfrancis_baudTorval

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • francis_baudfrancis_baud Member RarePosts: 240
    edited November 2017
    Gynthazi said:
    For those that don't know, they DID run into massive design issues. A lot of code had to get scrapped and re-written [...]
    The ability system had to be re-written but not because of the design (it remained pretty much the same as the first iteration afaik), rather because CSE needed something more performant and versatile for the kind of gameplay they envisioned. I think that they've never blamed anyone specifically for this though. I guess CSE has its share of responsibility in the entire refactor of this system since they're supposed to oversee the work of the developers and if they figured out something went wrong only years later then visibly something went wrong on this side too. Overall though I believe that refactoring a major system isn't something uncommon in video games, especially in MMO, so maybe it was more or less inevitable and they had to go through all this.

    Bottom line, now from what I've heard our ability system is amazing and innovative and they can do a ton of cool things with it, some things we've rarely seen in other MMORPGs before.  :)
    JamesGoblinTorval
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