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Predefined Ability Sets for Classes (Poll)
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,248
Over the last few days I have been considering what I prefer in regards to Ability / Hotbar Distribution. What I mean by that is how are abilities presented to you on your hot bar for combat. From the games I have played, three come to mind. I am only interested in a class based system, and this thread isn't for a sandbox skilled system.
Open Class System - Much like Everquest, you have a library of skills that is not limited to a spec or a weapon. The only limit is your number of Hot Bar Slots.
Spec Class System - Much like World of Warcraft, your abilities are determined by your spec. Whatever spec you have activated determines your abilities on your hot bar. In WoW, there is not hot bar limit, it's a ton.
Categorized (Item) System - Much like Guild Wars 2, your abilities on your hot bar are determined by whatever weapon you have with predefined hot bar slots.
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PRESET ABILITY SETS WITH AN OPEN ABILITY DISTRIBUTION
I think an interesting system would simply be a merger or Everquest and Guild Wars 2 ability distribution. I like the fact that, when I play a Wizard in Everquest there are no specs to continue a bottlenecked play style. All I can do is simply change what spells I wanted to use for various situations on a limited hot bar. It made ability usage more meaningful.
In order for Guild Wars 2 to compliment an open ability system like everquest, I think there needs to be multiple Ability Sets that you can have on your hot bar, that you can alter in and out of combat. I think it would be interesting to expand the preset of abilities a class can access too beyond a weapon set like GW2.
As an example, let's say you have a limited hot bar of 15 slots. Each class has FIVE preset ability sets with 5 abilities in each ability set. On a 15 slot hot bar, that is 3 predefined ability sets. The player can have 3 ability sets active in combat. Out of combat, the player can freely swap out an ability set for another one.
The predefined ability sets are tied to the class as a whole, instead of a weapon like GW2.
There is no spec system like WoW with this proposal. The idea is it's an open class system, meaning that even though you have predefined ability sets, you're freely able to swap them in and out for various situational gameplay. In a way, it's sort of like you're creating your own spec, but not tied down to a certain preset of abilities for that spec. Make sense?
Also, each class may have different number of Predefined Ability Sets with different rules. For the example below, we will just make it easier to try and get my point across.
Example -
Class: Wizard
Role: DPS / Anti-Magic
Rule: 3 Predefined Ability Sets of 5 abilities each. Can only have 2 Damage Ability Sets active at once.
Ability Set Frost Damage = 4 Frost damage spells, instant cast, various cast times with 1 utility ability.
Ability Set Arcane Damage = 4 Arcane damage spells, instant cast, various cast times with 1 utility ability.
Ability Set Fire Damage = 4 Fire damage spells, instant cast, various cast times with 1 utility ability.
Ability Set Anti Magic A = 5 anti magic abilities, silence, interrupts, purge, counter magic, magic shield
Ability Set Anti Magic B = 5 Spell defense abilities, spell block (2), spell reflect, spell barrier, disperse magic
As you can see this is a very basic example. Essentially, the Wizard player can have 2 Damage Ability Sets active with 1 Anti-Magic Set active at once. And can swap out anytime they desire out of combat.
Per poll below, would this system be interesting to you or a variation of it? Think about it like, instead of swapping abilities on a limited hot bar space, you swap a small predefined ability set.
Open Class System - Much like Everquest, you have a library of skills that is not limited to a spec or a weapon. The only limit is your number of Hot Bar Slots.
Spec Class System - Much like World of Warcraft, your abilities are determined by your spec. Whatever spec you have activated determines your abilities on your hot bar. In WoW, there is not hot bar limit, it's a ton.
Categorized (Item) System - Much like Guild Wars 2, your abilities on your hot bar are determined by whatever weapon you have with predefined hot bar slots.
---
PRESET ABILITY SETS WITH AN OPEN ABILITY DISTRIBUTION
I think an interesting system would simply be a merger or Everquest and Guild Wars 2 ability distribution. I like the fact that, when I play a Wizard in Everquest there are no specs to continue a bottlenecked play style. All I can do is simply change what spells I wanted to use for various situations on a limited hot bar. It made ability usage more meaningful.
In order for Guild Wars 2 to compliment an open ability system like everquest, I think there needs to be multiple Ability Sets that you can have on your hot bar, that you can alter in and out of combat. I think it would be interesting to expand the preset of abilities a class can access too beyond a weapon set like GW2.
As an example, let's say you have a limited hot bar of 15 slots. Each class has FIVE preset ability sets with 5 abilities in each ability set. On a 15 slot hot bar, that is 3 predefined ability sets. The player can have 3 ability sets active in combat. Out of combat, the player can freely swap out an ability set for another one.
The predefined ability sets are tied to the class as a whole, instead of a weapon like GW2.
There is no spec system like WoW with this proposal. The idea is it's an open class system, meaning that even though you have predefined ability sets, you're freely able to swap them in and out for various situational gameplay. In a way, it's sort of like you're creating your own spec, but not tied down to a certain preset of abilities for that spec. Make sense?
Also, each class may have different number of Predefined Ability Sets with different rules. For the example below, we will just make it easier to try and get my point across.
Example -
Class: Wizard
Role: DPS / Anti-Magic
Rule: 3 Predefined Ability Sets of 5 abilities each. Can only have 2 Damage Ability Sets active at once.
Ability Set Frost Damage = 4 Frost damage spells, instant cast, various cast times with 1 utility ability.
Ability Set Arcane Damage = 4 Arcane damage spells, instant cast, various cast times with 1 utility ability.
Ability Set Fire Damage = 4 Fire damage spells, instant cast, various cast times with 1 utility ability.
Ability Set Anti Magic A = 5 anti magic abilities, silence, interrupts, purge, counter magic, magic shield
Ability Set Anti Magic B = 5 Spell defense abilities, spell block (2), spell reflect, spell barrier, disperse magic
As you can see this is a very basic example. Essentially, the Wizard player can have 2 Damage Ability Sets active with 1 Anti-Magic Set active at once. And can swap out anytime they desire out of combat.
Per poll below, would this system be interesting to you or a variation of it? Think about it like, instead of swapping abilities on a limited hot bar space, you swap a small predefined ability set.
Predefined Ability Sets for Classes
- Does a Predefined Ability Set for Classes Interest You?14 votes
- Yes21.43%
- No57.14%
- A Variation of it yes, but packaged differently (Post Below)21.43%
Comments
You're system wont realistically work in today's age of mmorpg types because of balance reaction time. Old days of WoW and EQ etc were unbalanced for long periods of time without being addressed and people would just end up rerolling to that unbalanced class instead of just quitting. Now, if things go unbalanced for a while, people just leave the game for something else. Honestly, FFXI/FFXIV are the only ones that can kind of get away with it since you have access to everything on a single character, so its really on you if you want to play said unbalanced class or not in order to make progress. BRD went 2 years in HW being pretty much a trash class after being top tier before that expansion, now its middle. SMN and MCH will be at the bottle (probably DRK too) until they decide what they really want to do about them in 5.0. Point is though, its easier to transition in games like that because you're still able to make progression on one character vs leveling all over agaiin on a new character, unlocking achieves/access/etc.
But essentially, it sounds like you're wanting a moba type game that just allows you change characters whenever you want during a match (I guess like MxM), it terms of combat systems I mean.
"You're system wont realistically work in today's age of mmorpg types because of balance reaction time."
I don't think you're fully grasping the idea here. Quite the contrary, the predefined ability sets would actually make balancing really easier, especially on a Layered Balancing method. The top layer is where you balance class abilities. By making predefined ability sets it would actually ease up balancing because each ability set would have to be balanced with each other. It gives you a scope of what to expect. Makes class abilities more organized. Not really sure why you think it wouldn't work in today's mmos?
There is a massive common misconception of what class balance is. I would argue that Everquest classes where closer to being balance than WoW's classes could ever be. Vanilla WoW was close because each class was decently distinct but in the tenure of WoW, one of the worst balanced class systems I've played. But this is not what the thread is about.
I don't know how you think this proposal of predefined ability sets are meant or act like a MOBA. It's clearly not. I truly think you're not comprehending my idea in the OP. I think I have clearly laid it out.
When looking at combat systems, my highest priority is depth. It is a concept that a lot of people find difficult to fully grasp, but at it's core depth is a measure of the number of meaningful decisions a player has to make during combat.
With your system, a class will have a lot of skills, but you are artificially limiting the number of skills they can use in combat to 15. By reducing the number of skills, you are removing the potential depth offered by the system and instead shifting the depth into the meta-game.
Now, simply having lots of skills is no guarantee of depth, but the less skills you have, the less potential depth there is. Without depth, combat becomes intellectually boring. My brain disengages because there is no challenge, I'm simply going through the motions.
So, my preferred skills/hotbar setup is to allow users as many hotbars as they could possibly want and allow them to put all of their skills, potions, horses, social gestures etc on them however the hell they want. That way, we are not artificially removing depth from combat.
Then, specs should alter the effectiveness of skills. So, using your mage example, if I'm specced for fire damage then my fireballs will be much more effective than my ice blasts so I'm going to want to place my fireball skill on an easily accessible hotbar. But, even though I probably won't be using my ice blast skill much, I still want it there somewhere in case I come across someone who is immune to fire damage.
I'd make two groups here:
on one side the "classless" (entirely or mostly) games. TSW was maybe the best in this, too bad it's gone now (Legends is just a pile of dung), but CO, STO, or even Rift could get in here. With these games you can build your "class" as you want, cherry-pick from the skills as you want (or with some minor restrictions). This way, even if you have a limited hotbar, you can any time reorganise your layout - and of course the bar is not "fixed" in any way, like in your example or in GW2.
the other side is your regular class-based games, and with those I couldn't even summarise better than cameltosis did:
This. If I want 60 buttons on the screen, let me. If I want only 10, the same. Options, all the way, and never restrictions on such simple elements as UI. What's next, fixed keys without the option of remapping, just because it might help the devs and making their jobs easier? Who cares about that, im the customer
You mention that more abilities accessed for combat = more depth. Which always isn't the case. Take Vanilla WoW or even Lotro for an example. Both allowed you to have your entire ability library on a handful of hotbars, but yet, you still use 1-5 abilities in combat for a singular rotation. No depth. Very stale combat after awhile.
Mounts, social gestures and most of what you're suggesting has nothing to do with depth of combat. The 15 limited hot bar space is solely for your CLASS only ability library and doesn't account for mounts, or a potion belt which will be separate static hot bars. For me personally, having a ton of hot bars on you UI is way too cluttered and can lessen immersion. That is subjective.
Depth of combat is not determined by the amount of skills you have or don't have accessed on your hotbar. Depth of combat is determined by various variables such as: How do those abilities interact with each other to cause multiple paths of victory by omitting a singular rotation. How challenging is the AI? Can the AI pattern detect and adapt in combat? Do certain NPC's have immunity to certain spell schools or skills, ect?
Personally, I would like to see PVE combat transition into a more adaptable AI. To me, that will provide depth of combat. Take in account these variables. NPC RACE = Behavior in combat, offensive, defensive, balanced or deceptive. NPC CLASS = Toolkit of abilities the NPC has access too. NPC AI RANK = Difficulty. A higher AI Rank determines that NPC will be more apt to pattern detect or may be programmed to determine the probability of an ability you may or may not open with to negate ability. Something to make each encounter more engaging and provide depth in a different way. Of course classes would have to compliment this depth of AI.
When I hear depth, I don't think of capacity of abilities on a ton of hot bars, I consider depth to weigh in more strategy to combat. Hence a potential hot bar slot limit.
Back to the beginning. I think allowing the player to determine what individual abilities you have access to on a limit hot bar can increase some depth in regards to strategy. That is why I feel like, predefined ability sets could devalue some depth and some strategy. Simply, makes it more organized for the player to learn and see the class as a whole rather than individual abilities.
It's funny that you mention LotRO. That is actually the deepest combat system I've ever played (I've not played WoW beyond the trial, but I'm told it is almost as deep as lotro).
For standard, solo content, you are correct - LotRO was shallow. You had 40 abilities on your bar but probably only used 5 of them for a dps rotation. However, it is important to note that your individual experience, or even the average experience, is not how you measure depth. A combat system can be deep due to it's potential, even if you never experience that potential.
So it was with LotRO - tons of potential, but you only ever experienced the depth during difficult group content.
I played a captain in LotRO - a buffer. I had 40 or so active abilities, as well as 10 or so potions on my toolbars. My DPS rotation involved 5 skills in a 9-button rotation. I had some abilities that were useless. BUT! I had about 20 situation abilities, plus the pots, that all became very useful in group content and added immense depth. It meant that every single GCD I was having to make a choice between continuing my rotation, or using one of my situation abilities.
A good example is "Shield of the Dunedain". A skill with a 5m cooldown, makes 1 person immune to damage for 10 seconds and consumed a lot of power. This is a perfect example of a skill that adds depth.
If the tank is taking lots of damage, do I use this skill on them? When making that decision, I have to weigh up:
- Do I think the healer can catch up?
- Does anyone else need the skill more?
- Should I save the skill in case I need it soon?
- Can I afford to spend the power to use the skill?
- Do I have other skills I could use instead?
- Do I have other skills that are more important than saving the tank?
So, the decision is difficult to make because I have so many factors to consider, and the decision has a meaningful impact - if I get it wrong, the tank could die and we wipe. Now, soloing as a captain, that skill was 100% useless, but that doesn't make the combat mechanics shallow. It just means that the majority of the game was too easy and if a game is too easy then it removes the impact of your decision, thus removing depth.As mentioned, depth is a measure of meaningful decisions, meaning decisions that are difficult to make and have a real impact. The variables you mention can have dramatic effects on depth, it all depends on the implementation.
For example - immunity to certain spell schools.
If certain NPCs are immune to certain spell schools, like fire, that adds no depth to the combat, only complexity. It does not make your decisions harder to make - if it is immune to fire, you just avoid fire spells.
However, if the NPC had a buff that mirrored fire damage onto the caster, that would add depth. That is because you now have to balance the damage you would do to them with the additional damage you receive. Is it worth it? Can your healer keep up? Would it kill you? What if you crit? That mirror effect is making the decision making harder, and the additional damage increases the impact of your decision.
Of course, if the healer can just pump out AoE heals all day long and stay on top of that mirrored damage, then the depth is again removed....
Designing a deep combat system is very hard. I've only played 1 game that had a deep combat system in PvE (LotRO), everything else has been shallow in comparison. WAR actually had a decent combat system too, but the depth only came out in group PvP due to the large amount of CC that was mostly useless in PvE.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
a) in LotRO you really can put everything on the screen, in any order or way you want, and
b) even said screen (the UI) is totally flexible and editable through LUA.
So it is the exact opposite of the "let's nail down everything in place like a cheap console shooter does, because that's good" OP seeks
In LotRO if you want you can remove all and leave only the 5 buttons you say you use (for the record, never really got that mindset either, I don't restrict myself to rotations, and use everything I have, when it's the most fitting). Or, you can put out everything. Or everything, but make your five larger. Or duplicate them. Or aligning them in a giant cross in the middle of the screen, if that's how you like it. You can make it dynamic, for example if you so much in love with rotations you can make those buttons appear in order, and even at the same place (with disappearing after use and on cooldown), and all you need to do is click on the same spot every time. Or, as OPs nightmare, you can fill the whole screen with hotbars and buttons even.
I saw a chicken runner UI once, with literally a whole cloud of buttons arranged in the center of the screen, around the chicken, with the same skill on all, in case a very fast click of possum is needed to save your tail feathers
The cappy example is not entirely accurate I think, you only need to care about the tank if you are the main / off healer, otherwise both the mini and the rk has better ways to save the tank's butt. And I think shield is just damage reduction, not a full immunity bubble. I used to drop it either on the healer (hate those phases when the newly arrived adds target the healer right away...) or on the over-achiever dps
Combat where you hit a variation of 1-2-3-4-5 rows bores me to hell and that's why I don't like predefined ability sets.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
It was a really jarring experience moving from a game with loads of depth (lotro) to a game with no depth (swtor) despite them both using the same combat style. I couldn't believe how badly designed swtor was! Took all of 5 minutes to master a class for PvE, perhaps an hour if you were figuring out the best rotations using a damage parser for yourself. No difficulty in that game beyond inflated numbers which you just countered with better gear.
In an old post on the cappy subforum someone posted that cappy is like seasoning: it looks like a small ingredient compared to the others and your dish is fine and nurturing without it as well, but after you try it with seasoning, you won't ever go back
The same run with the same group, just with an additional (and good, that's important) cappy turns so much smoother as if you'd set the difficulty one notch lower. Similar with add-heavy encounters and a good LM - at least when CC mattered, an another element faded out of present games.
edit: inbefore bragging and stuff, I am mainly a healer, and never was a good cappy myself. Maybe an average one, on my better days