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"If we don't do that, then the game will never be finished." Port response to funding questions

blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
Some questions came up on Steam regarding launch and funding and Portalarium responded insinuating the cash shop is the only money driving development.  They go on to say no one is being forced to buy from their add-on store even though in the same paragraph they suggest that if people don't buy from the add-on store then the game won't ever be finished.

Topic at hand is "When is Release". We are currently in Early Access with launch coming up very soon (we will announce more of these details later this year).
The reason some things (not the majority by any stretch) are in the store is to ensure we can continue to develop and eventually finish the game. If we don't do that, then the game will never be finished. No one is forced to buy those items, so it is entirely up to you.


JamesGoblinXodic
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Comments

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    makes total sense to me, where is the lack of understanding? please explain what is confusing
    Gdemami

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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,012
    So? I'm not sure what you were expecting, but work is not typically free so if they want to get the game launched they'll need come up with funding somehow. While I don't agree with some of their decisions, like putting "free" assets in their shop, I do understand their need to fund the project.
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    I think what is confusing is that they are a publisher and have two more publishers on contract.  They market the game on Steam also as a buy to play game but then offer the game through their site as a free to play trial game.  If they can't bring in new playerbase then maybe they should shift focus from making cash shop content to fixing broken game mechanics that gamers don't seem to want.  Three publishers can't solve why there is no playerbase so they say the game will not be complete if people don't use the cash-shop.  Does not seem logical.
    JamesGoblinXodicGdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I think what is confusing is that they are a publisher and have two more publishers on contract.  They market the game on Steam also as a buy to play game but then offer the game through their site as a free to play trial game.  If they can't bring in new playerbase then maybe they should shift focus from making cash shop content to fixing broken game mechanics that gamers don't seem to want.  Three publishers can't solve why there is no playerbase so they say the game will not be complete if people don't use the cash-shop.  Does not seem logical.
    not sure any of that observation is related to your OP but ok, cool story?

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  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think what is confusing is that they are a publisher and have two more publishers on contract.  They market the game on Steam also as a buy to play game but then offer the game through their site as a free to play trial game.  If they can't bring in new playerbase then maybe they should shift focus from making cash shop content to fixing broken game mechanics that gamers don't seem to want.  Three publishers can't solve why there is no playerbase so they say the game will not be complete if people don't use the cash-shop.  Does not seem logical.
    not sure any of that observation is related to your OP but ok, cool story?

    Directly related to the OP is the story for anyone that has been with this project since Kickstarter.  They have said the game will launch every year and always delay and then say they need more money so they have private investors, and then backer pledging and then cash-shop then monthly telethons and then a second crowdfunding campaign with Seed Invest and then another launch delay.  They don't seem to know when they will launch but they keep promising launch is soon and that promise is made every year.   Now they say the project will not be completed if people don't use the cash shop but they don't work on fixing the mechanics that players give feedback on, everything is about the cash shop.  It's very messy and there is no clear finish line.  They say they need money to or the game will never be complete but they don't have a plan for the game it seems.
    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2017
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think what is confusing is that they are a publisher and have two more publishers on contract.  They market the game on Steam also as a buy to play game but then offer the game through their site as a free to play trial game.  If they can't bring in new playerbase then maybe they should shift focus from making cash shop content to fixing broken game mechanics that gamers don't seem to want.  Three publishers can't solve why there is no playerbase so they say the game will not be complete if people don't use the cash-shop.  Does not seem logical.
    not sure any of that observation is related to your OP but ok, cool story?

    Directly related to the OP is the story for anyone that has been with this project since Kickstarter.  They have said the game will launch every year and always delay and then say they need more money so they have private investors, and then backer pledging and then cash-shop then monthly telethons and then a second crowdfunding campaign with Seed Invest and then another launch delay.  They don't seem to know when they will launch but they keep promising launch is soon and that promise is made every year.   Now they say the project will not be completed if people don't use the cash shop but they don't work on fixing the mechanics that players give feedback on, everything is about the cash shop.  It's very messy and there is no clear finish line.  They say they need money to or the game will never be complete but they don't have a plan for the game it seems.
    but that doesnt seem to have much to do with your title. Your title in the OP seems to suggest that its contradiction to say you have a choice and then say if you dont pay up then the game will fail. Is that not what your OP is trying to suggest?

    your OP is directly related to cash shops specifically. 

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  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    SEANMCAD said:

    Directly related to the OP is the story for anyone that has been with this project since Kickstarter.  They have said the game will launch every year and always delay and then say they need more money so they have private investors, and then backer pledging and then cash-shop then monthly telethons and then a second crowdfunding campaign with Seed Invest and then another launch delay.  They don't seem to know when they will launch but they keep promising launch is soon and that promise is made every year.   Now they say the project will not be completed if people don't use the cash shop but they don't work on fixing the mechanics that players give feedback on, everything is about the cash shop.  It's very messy and there is no clear finish line.  They say they need money to or the game will never be complete but they don't have a plan for the game it seems.
    but that doesnt seem to have much to do with your title. Your title in the OP seems to suggest that its contradiction to say you have a choice and then say if you dont pay up then the game will fail. Is that not what your OP is trying to suggest?

    The contradiction is alarming.  They say it's a personal choice to use the cash shop but if no one buys anything the game will fail.  Why I fee the contradiction is so alarming is because they do not have a strong playerbase, only the players that gave during Kickstarter or Seed Invest remain and only in very small numbers. They made very clear targets before with funding goals and now it feels like this is a cry for help, or something worse like a threat.  There is only a very small number of players watching the game at present yet they must carry all the blame for failure even when there are three publishers that do nothing to market the game.

    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:

    Directly related to the OP is the story for anyone that has been with this project since Kickstarter.  They have said the game will launch every year and always delay and then say they need more money so they have private investors, and then backer pledging and then cash-shop then monthly telethons and then a second crowdfunding campaign with Seed Invest and then another launch delay.  They don't seem to know when they will launch but they keep promising launch is soon and that promise is made every year.   Now they say the project will not be completed if people don't use the cash shop but they don't work on fixing the mechanics that players give feedback on, everything is about the cash shop.  It's very messy and there is no clear finish line.  They say they need money to or the game will never be complete but they don't have a plan for the game it seems.
    but that doesnt seem to have much to do with your title. Your title in the OP seems to suggest that its contradiction to say you have a choice and then say if you dont pay up then the game will fail. Is that not what your OP is trying to suggest?

    The contradiction is alarming.  They say it's a personal choice to use the cash shop but if no one buys anything the game will fail.  Why I fee the contradiction is so alarming is because they do not have a strong playerbase, only the players that gave during Kickstarter or Seed Invest remain and only in very small numbers. They made very clear targets before with funding goals and now it feels like this is a cry for help, or something worse like a threat.  There is only a very small number of players watching the game at present yet they must carry all the blame for failure even when there are three publishers that do nothing to market the game.

    now that we are a bit back on topic on the intent of your OP I have this to say.

    It is a choice, a choice that has results. So where is the problem. You seem to think that the gaming being finished is not an outcome based on peoples choice, it is an outcome based on peoples choice of action.
    Gdemami

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Unfortunately, mixed signals isn't really unusual for crowdfunded MMORPGs.  Most Dev teams tend to err heavily on the idealistic side when communication progress and estimating milestones to their backers, leading to a lot of crow being eaten and revisions to revisions of revisions.
    Gdemami

    image
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Unfortunately, mixed signals isn't really unusual for crowdfunded MMORPGs.  Most Dev teams tend to err heavily on the idealistic side when communication progress and estimating milestones to their backers, leading to a lot of crow being eaten and revisions to revisions of revisions.
    I think the problem is he is assuming that 'the game happening' is not a choice outcome. It is a choice outcome. players do make choices that do affect 'the game happening' or not. its not an entitlement.

    unfilteredJWGdemami

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  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    SEANMCAD said:
    Unfortunately, mixed signals isn't really unusual for crowdfunded MMORPGs.  Most Dev teams tend to err heavily on the idealistic side when communication progress and estimating milestones to their backers, leading to a lot of crow being eaten and revisions to revisions of revisions.
    I think the problem is he is assuming that 'the game happening' is not a choice outcome. It is a choice outcome. players do make choices that do affect 'the game happening' or not. its not an entitlement.

    Players have made many choices to see this game completed.  Kickstarter, telethons, Seed Invest, streaming, player created game content, bug reporting, testing, spending and creating game economy, everything we could do has been done and still the devs say if we stop spending the game will fail.  Makes some think that maybe there was never a plan to finish to begin with, how could there be and this problem still be so bad?  Why is the game being finished now the backer problem that spends in the cash shop?  The game is not launched and there are three publishing companies that control commercial success, yet all problems are now the backers fault for not spending in the cash shop.
    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    Unfortunately, mixed signals isn't really unusual for crowdfunded MMORPGs.  Most Dev teams tend to err heavily on the idealistic side when communication progress and estimating milestones to their backers, leading to a lot of crow being eaten and revisions to revisions of revisions.
    I think the problem is he is assuming that 'the game happening' is not a choice outcome. It is a choice outcome. players do make choices that do affect 'the game happening' or not. its not an entitlement.

    Players have made many choices to see this game completed.  Kickstarter, telethons, Seed Invest, streaming, player created game content, bug reporting, testing, spending and creating game economy, everything we could do has been done and still the devs say if we stop spending the game will fail.  Makes some think that maybe there was never a plan to finish to begin with, how could there be and this problem still be so bad?  Why is the game being finished now the backer problem that spends in the cash shop?  The game is not launched and there are three publishing companies that control commercial success, yet all problems are now the backers fault for not spending in the cash shop.
    they are still not entitled to the game being completed. 

    The developers can not magically make money appear simply because you feel your entitled to the game, reality doesnt work that way
    KyleranGdemami

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,178
    Yeah, it's a personal choice to support this game, one I won't be making but that has no bearing really on the game's release as long as enough other people are willing to spend in the store. 

    It's really just a statement of fact that without more funds the game won't launch, and right now it seems the cash shop is mostly it.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited November 2017
    This is how crowd funded projects can pan out OP. It sounds like they overshot their original estimate and are looking for additional funds to continue development. If people didn't understand the risk when given them money in the first place, that's kind of their fault for not being more educated on what is they are "donating" to. Its a businessman's job to sell you something, but you're still the one who has to decide if you want to buy or not.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Any project is much more likely to run into issues when the vision changes drastically during development. Shroud was originally just an RPG, but was later converted into something more. That's always problematic.


  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,973
    Isn't that like saying it's your fault if we fail?  Which is like not taking responsibility for your actions?
    Aron_SwordmasterGdemami

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Isn't that like saying it's your fault if we fail?  Which is like not taking responsibility for your actions?
    no its not.

    its a failure of people not understanding how this works. Giving money to a project does NOT mean you are entitled to have it completed. who actually thinks that is how it works? its not how it works, never has never will and to be frank people should not have to explain that unless they are very young
    Gdemami

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    SEANMCAD said:
    Isn't that like saying it's your fault if we fail?  Which is like not taking responsibility for your actions?
    no its not.

    its a failure of people not understanding how this works. Giving money to a project does NOT mean you are entitled to have it completed. who actually thinks that is how it works? its not how it works, never has never will and to be frank people should not have to explain that unless they are very young
    Just as the backers have to put up if it doesn't get released due to their choice to back, the developer chose to solicit backing.  Any backlash they receive from spited backers is also well-deserved.  Nobody forced Portalarium to take or continue taking such funding from sources not well-versed in software development.

    The situation is also a very strong reminder of why publishers and the traditional funding method existed in the first place and why stricter, legally binding agreements should he considered between the two parties.  Too much grey area and ambiguity on the requirements of the party receiving funds.  This isn't the same as a starving artist exposition.
    Gdemami

    image
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    Isn't that like saying it's your fault if we fail?  Which is like not taking responsibility for your actions?
    no its not.

    its a failure of people not understanding how this works. Giving money to a project does NOT mean you are entitled to have it completed. who actually thinks that is how it works? its not how it works, never has never will and to be frank people should not have to explain that unless they are very young
    Just as the backers have to put up if it doesn't get released due to their choice to back, the developer chose to solicit backing.  Any backlash they receive from spited backers is also well-deserved.  ....
    yes that is true HOWEVER, everyone seems to be getting off the OPs point. The core question is not developer asking for money or not, the explict and specific question/statement is:

    'buying items from the store is a choice and I feel that implies I still get the game either way' which it doesnt.

    ALL...lets please try to stay hyper focused on the OPs core point
    unfilteredJW

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,973
    Them saying you won't get a game if you don't support the cash shop is easy to understand and speaks for itself.  What brought them to that point was focus on to small of a target audience to support the game and instead of adapting to support a larger audience they focus even harder on getting more money from those who stay and support.  A good game brings in lots of people and a bad game doesn't.  Rather than make changes to the game that will support a greater audience the choice is to focus on just doing things one way.  You must adapt to overcome, bend or break.
    Gdemami

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Them saying you won't get a game ....
    they didnt say that. why is it so common for people to literally change what a developer says within less than a day. They said it MIGHT.... BIG DIFFERENCE

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  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    SEANMCAD said:
    Them saying you won't get a game ....
    they didnt say that. why is it so common for people to literally change what a developer says within less than a day. They said it MIGHT.... BIG DIFFERENCE

    I put the actual quote in the OP.  They said "will never be finished" and will is a different planet compared to might.  They asked for money and they made promises, they got money.  They asked for more money and made more promises, they got more money.  They asked for more money again and made more promises again, they got more money.  They do this so many times and then they sell their company to backers for even more money and say they are becoming a publisher.  Then they have contracts with two other publishers.  Now THREE publishers are backing the game and they say the game will never be finished if people don't use the add-on store.
    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2017
    SEANMCAD said:
    Them saying you won't get a game ....
    they didnt say that. why is it so common for people to literally change what a developer says within less than a day. They said it MIGHT.... BIG DIFFERENCE

    I put the actual quote in the OP.  They said "will never be finished" and will is a different planet compared to might.  They asked for money and they made promises, they got money.  They asked for more money and made more promises, they got more money.  They asked for more money again and made more promises again, they got more money.  They do this so many times and then they sell their company to backers for even more money and say they are becoming a publisher.  Then they have contracts with two other publishers.  Now THREE publishers are backing the game and they say the game will never be finished if people don't use the add-on store.
    Here are your words interperting what they said:
     'They go on to say no one is being forced to buy from their add-on store even though in the same paragraph they suggest that if people don't buy from the add-on store then the game won't ever be finished.'
     Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469258/if-we-dont-do-that-then-the-game-will-never-be-finished-port-response-to-funding-questions#tS70qzuuGBZVOp4L.99
     you decided to use the word 'suggest' why?


    here is the quote from them:

    'The reason some things (not the majority by any stretch) are in the store is to ensure we can continue to develop and eventually finish the game. If we don't do that, then the game will never be finished. No one is forced to buy those items, so it is entirely up to you.'

    'if we dont do that' means 'if we dont ensure funding regardless of the source'

    its not super clear but that is how it reads.

    however, regardless of that point, you are not entitled to a game. peroid

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Them saying you won't get a game ....
    they didnt say that. why is it so common for people to literally change what a developer says within less than a day. They said it MIGHT.... BIG DIFFERENCE

    I put the actual quote in the OP.  They said "will never be finished" and will is a different planet compared to might.  They asked for money and they made promises, they got money.  They asked for more money and made more promises, they got more money.  They asked for more money again and made more promises again, they got more money.  They do this so many times and then they sell their company to backers for even more money and say they are becoming a publisher.  Then they have contracts with two other publishers.  Now THREE publishers are backing the game and they say the game will never be finished if people don't use the add-on store.
    Here are your words interperting what they said:
     'They go on to say no one is being forced to buy from their add-on store even though in the same paragraph they suggest that if people don't buy from the add-on store then the game won't ever be finished.'
     Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/469258/if-we-dont-do-that-then-the-game-will-never-be-finished-port-response-to-funding-questions#tS70qzuuGBZVOp4L.99
     you decided to use the word 'suggest' why?


    here is the quote from them:

    'The reason some things (not the majority by any stretch) are in the store is to ensure we can continue to develop and eventually finish the game. If we don't do that, then the game will never be finished. No one is forced to buy those items, so it is entirely up to you.'

    'if we dont do that' means 'if we dont ensure funding regardless of the source'

    its not super clear but that is how it reads.

    however, regardless of that point, you are not entitled to a game. peroid

    I never said I was entitled to a game, so maybe there is a disconnect here I am unaware of.  If you are impaired in some way, please understand it's not my intent to argue with you. I don't understand why you are being so specific with regard to my wants here.

    I am confused as to why there wouldn't be a game after everything that's been done.  The game isn't very complicated.  The UI is basic, combat is simple, the story is cheesy, the graphics are dated, the animations are simple.  I am concerned and confused as to why anyone would have to continue to spend money on this game and I wonder what happened to all the money they were given.  Of course no one is entitled to a game, but at some point considering how much money was raised and how high profile this project is people will feel very entitled to an explanation.

    To get into a discussion of why a company such as Portalarium would say that the game will fail if people don't continue to purchase through the add-on store can only mean a few things.  They're broke or they have no plan to increase player population or they have motivation to continue developing the game.  I do not feel entitled to a game but I do feel very concerned that many thousands of people will feel entitled to a game considering all the promises Portalarium has made to get backer money.
    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2017


    I never said I was entitled to a game,....
    lets follow the logic of your statement very closely. your quote:
    'They go on to say no one is being forced to buy from their add-on store even though in the same paragraph they suggest that if people don't buy from the add-on store then the game won't ever be finished.'

     its a contradiction you say. If you dont buy items from the add-on store you might/will not get a completed game. Ok....so why is that outrageous?
     because you EXPECT to get the game regardless of if you buy from the add on store or not, you feel 'entitled' to get the game regardless of if you buy in game purchases or not. you are not entitled to the game for any reason whatsoever. Only if the game is completed does that begin to apply

     The only way your logic works is if they assumption is that you should get the game at all.

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