Matchmaking Systems - New Post by Aradune

Amathe

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1

Lots of interesting information in this posting on the official site.

Zindaihas

Yeah, that's great.  I don't see a "Looking for Girlfriend" tool.  What kind of matchmaking system is this?

Albatroes

I'm interested in learning but I dont like to read. Curses. Dumb it down for me!

Nightbringe1

Zindaihas said:

Yeah, that's great.  I don't see a "Looking for Girlfriend" tool.  What kind of matchmaking system is this?

I remember how many RL couples got together in my old guild.

azarhal

Xodic said:

Not enough information to form an opinion, but my belief is that every tool you add that circumvents the game world is essentially saying that you're aware of the game's shortcomings.

I would much rather see inns and taverns used as an interactive social hub rather than an anytime UI window. Looking for a group? Go to a tavern. Need a guild? Go to a town crier. Those are just examples, but using the world to implement these 'tools' would be in-line with "We're creating a world".

I remember Star Wars Galaxies used the cantinas to recover from battle or something like that. I thought that was really cool how they used the world to funnel people to the same areas.

Anything but another UI window to break immersion, please.

While I agree with you, gamers today wants everything now and couldn't care less about getting immersed.

That means waiting in a Tavern or going to the Town crier is too annoying and a waste of time.

Sovrath

DMKano said:

The most crucial part of his post is this:

"  I also fully expect to try some of these ideas and find that they need some real re-work and sometimes even a total 'yank it from the game' as we head into alpha and beta and ideas sounding great on paper just not panning out in the actual game."

So dont get too ahead of yourself thinking "they are talking about it now - so it will be in the game on release"

Lots of early alpha ideas dont pan out, so .... set your expectations accordingly

That's the problem with having somewhat transparent development. Developers want to talk about their work but if they have to remove something or change anything players will throw a fit as they "get their hearts set" on whatever they want kept in stone.

Amathe

This caught my attention:

"But, as I always try to put out there:  we've no interest in creating an emulator, or simply bringing back the past.   Yes, Pantheon has the same spirit and feel as many of the classics -- we've already achieved that, verified it, and are proud of it.  But it's also so much more -- so much more at launch, and then holy crap! we have some crazy cool stuff that is integral to the Grand Vision, that we've been waiting years even decades to get into an MMO like this."  

Honestly without quoting Brad's entire post I feel guilty that it loses the full context. But at the same time it's VR's website content and I don't just want to gank it and paste it all here. 

Mendel

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

The most crucial part of his post is this:

"  I also fully expect to try some of these ideas and find that they need some real re-work and sometimes even a total 'yank it from the game' as we head into alpha and beta and ideas sounding great on paper just not panning out in the actual game."

So dont get too ahead of yourself thinking "they are talking about it now - so it will be in the game on release"

Lots of early alpha ideas dont pan out, so .... set your expectations accordingly

That's the problem with having somewhat transparent development. Developers want to talk about their work but if they have to remove something or change anything players will throw a fit as they "get their hearts set" on whatever they want kept in stone.

I'm a bit more concerned with the developers doing exactly that, @Sovrath.  That's always the way that Brad's previous games have felt to me -- they added a functionality, then hoped.  Things like the locked doors in the original EQ should never have seen the light of day.

But I definitely agree that the public will also have this same reaction.  We see it once, and it can't be changed.

Kyleran

Amathe said:

This caught my attention:

"But, as I always try to put out there:  we've no interest in creating an emulator, or simply bringing back the past.   Yes, Pantheon has the same spirit and feel as many of the classics -- we've already achieved that, verified it, and are proud of it.  But it's also so much more -- so much more at launch, and then holy crap! we have some crazy cool stuff that is integral to the Grand Vision, that we've been waiting years even decades to get into an MMO like this."  

Honestly without quoting Brad's entire post I feel guilty that it loses the full context. But at the same time it's VR's website content and I don't just want to gank it and paste it all here. 

It's definitely a post which should be read in full to understand the context. 

But more than once he speaks of designs which will appear contrary to what the core principals are and are likely to anger some supporters.

He also asks for their patience until everything gets sorted out and as others have quoted, some ideas will likely not make the grade.

Those looking for a replica of EQ1 however are likely going to surprised as I believe several of his recent posts clearly show they are experimenting with convenience features in order to better support grouping and making long term relationships. 

Off line caravans for travel and mention of what to do when a key party member has to suddenly leave caught my eye.

Should be interesting to see what finally shakes out of it all.

Amathe

Necessity is the mother of invention, meaning that if you put folks in a position where they will need help in order to do things, they naturally will turn to others for that help, and this is how friendships/community begin(s). I believe this will definitely be part of the Pantheon experience, and they have said as much.

But, at the same time, a group oriented/dependent game benefits from features that facilitate grouping. And games where people form lasting friendships from their grouping experiences retain players better than games where people just casually use one another for encounters. So I am not surprised that VR is experimenting and look forward to seeing what they come up with.  

Kajidourden

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.  It's a hard line to walk and they are making an honest effort to do so.

MadFrenchie

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

The most crucial part of his post is this:

"  I also fully expect to try some of these ideas and find that they need some real re-work and sometimes even a total 'yank it from the game' as we head into alpha and beta and ideas sounding great on paper just not panning out in the actual game."

So dont get too ahead of yourself thinking "they are talking about it now - so it will be in the game on release"

Lots of early alpha ideas dont pan out, so .... set your expectations accordingly

That's the problem with having somewhat transparent development. Developers want to talk about their work but if they have to remove something or change anything players will throw a fit as they "get their hearts set" on whatever they want kept in stone.

One of the benefits of courting traditional funding is that you don't have to provide such a transparent development to a fanbase that doesn't understand or have the appropriate context to gauge such information.

The need for transparency is certainly a challenge to crowdfunded developers.

Dullahan

Torval said:

That blog post generated more concern than it did to alleviate. The problem with setting up a game context like that is there are about 99% of the people who need the attention, energy, and ear of others and just 1% of the people who can provide that.

I feel like they're trying too hard to make social happen feel "memorable and special". It feels forced. Make an interesting game that people find compelling and they'll socialize around that experience. There are many games and hobbies that aren't massively multiplayer that have engaged social communities.

If the game isn't good then no amount of pushing that on people through design mechanics will make it happen. People will just leave. On the other hand, if the game is good and engaging, people will create a community around that regardless. People will talk and chat about their characters and plans for progression.

I agree that it will happen naturally anyway, but it doesn't hurt to make the process easier. The parts that I like is creating a smarter group system that can actually connect you with people who play more like yourself. If you're a casual player who is interested in roleplay, grouping with hardcore players may not be a great fit socially. However, if you're able to find people who play casually like yourself during the same timeframe, that could be a valuable system.

Beyond that, anything that offers fast travel, being instantly teleported or summoned to locations, or even allows you to travel offline, I do not support. Player teleports via spells should be enough. Beyond that, it should be up to players to coordinate and communicate just as they would in all other areas of the game.

Zuljan

Amathe said:

Necessity is the mother of invention, meaning that if you put folks in a position where they will need help in order to do things, they naturally will turn to others for that help, and this is how friendships/community begin(s). I believe this will definitely be part of the Pantheon experience, and they have said as much.

But, at the same time, a group oriented/dependent game benefits from features that facilitate grouping. And games where people form lasting friendships from their grouping experiences retain players better than games where people just casually use one another for encounters. So I am not surprised that VR is experimenting and look forward to seeing what they come up with.  

Yeah, this I felt was more or less the gist of this spirited, yet admittedly esoteric piece. The matchmaking and caravan system has been talked about since 2015. So long as it's a tavern or something "semi-immersive" to fulfill this function (as opposed to pressing tab and then click invites on random names) no one has expressed issues regarding this design. 

For the first time I'm seeing a shift/higher interest from more casual audiences (maybe PvP discussion and low level beginner tutorials described at TwitchCon have a lot to do with it), which seems to have devs focusing on what mechanics can be implemented to make it easier for a casual/newcomer to learn how to play this style of game, while retaining the same difficulty/challenge in the game (i.e., finding a solid group or group of friends should not be the challenging part of a challenging, hardcore mmo).

I don't think this was taken as seriously before, but a lot of casual interest was gained at TwitchCon. I also don't think they're trying to "force" memorable relationships; however, acquiring those true friends or longterm guild is in fact the foundation for the greatest times/memories one will create, in addition to being vital for success, so I think they're doing what they can to make sure people maximize their potential and experience in this game (and to be honest, I think for the first time, they're realizing, not just hoping/planning, that this game has the potential to be much more than niche, given the recent wave of casual backing).

What I personally took from this:

-Fans/backers, remain patient and faithful; the hardcore game you want is going to come, and it will be challenging.

-realize mechanics/systems can be implemented to make the game more welcoming for newcomers/casuals, while not breaking immersion or overall game/world difficulty.

-Devs do not have tunnel vision; some things may be added removed or revised if they don't pan out (based on discussions, I wouldn't take this negatively, as if some large system like climates would be removed; 3 races for cleric I'm looking at you!). However I do feel this is particularly aimed/geared toward pre-alpha testers, and what we may expect vs what we will be seeing "at least while starting off," as he puts it.

-Based on minute details here and on other recent streams/threads, unfortunately I do believe a Q1-Q2 2019 release should be anticipated (better to wait until it's polished since you only get one chance at a successful release, but yeah, he has been driving the testing phases home with some authority as of late). 

As an aside, I personally enjoyed Brad's apparent enthusiasm/passion for this game. A variety of details show both authentic excitement and confidence; something that only seems to increase as time goes by. His post is so informal and generalized, that it almost felt like a diary entry or a PM to a group of friends, but it felt organic and refreshing to hear a man, not a CEO, just let it out as he feels (at close to 2am, with his "admittedly tired brain"). It's nice to see non-robotic ambition/inspiration these days, especially from a chief officer; too many automated, blue-pill sheeple in the world today. If anyone can truly re-create the "Evercrack" epidemic again, I sincerely think it is this team at VR. Their tone, vernacular, and vision is just different from other companies; both indie or otherwise. They all come off as passionate artists as opposed to capitalists. 

Adamantine

Zindaihas said:

Yeah, that's great.  I don't see a "Looking for Girlfriend" tool.  What kind of matchmaking system is this?

Just a fair warning: a lot of the "girls" in the game will actually be boys in reallife ! ;-)

I plan on making my main a girl this time around. Since my Highelf Paladin was the one character I miss not having played more in Vanguard.

Nightbringe1

Adamantine said:

Zindaihas said:

Yeah, that's great.  I don't see a "Looking for Girlfriend" tool.  What kind of matchmaking system is this?

Just a fair warning: a lot of the "girls" in the game will actually be boys in reallife ! ;-)

I plan on making my main a girl this time around. Since my Highelf Paladin was the one character I miss not having played more in Vanguard.

I've also found that more than a few of the "boys" are RL girls that just don't want to deal with the stalkers.

Zindaihas

Nightbringe1 said:

I've also found that more than a few of the "boys" are RL girls that just don't want to deal with the stalkers.

If that's true, that's an interesting bit of information.  Because it tells me the girls who are hiding behind male characters and probably the ones worth "stalking".  Let's face it, the females who don't receive a whole lot of attention in the real world probably enjoy being hit on in the virtual one.

Xthos

Zindaihas said:

Nightbringe1 said:

I've also found that more than a few of the "boys" are RL girls that just don't want to deal with the stalkers.

If that's true, that's an interesting bit of information.  Because it tells me the girls who are hiding behind male characters and probably the ones worth "stalking".  Let's face it, the females who don't receive a whole lot of attention in the real world probably enjoy being hit on in the virtual one.

I played with a couple that did this, and your assumption in this case was very NOT true, she was very nice, but I don't think she probably got hit on much.  Then the nice looking women I knew that played, a lot of them carried real life into the game.  Like in UO, we would go do dungeons and hunt, and when we ported back to the bank, they couldn't wait to get back into their 'sexy' outfits, and they were very nice looking irl.  

I would play my wives character in EQ (to help get quests/faction done or something), and people would hit on me all the time, made me feel a little creeped out.

Scott23

Zindaihas said:

Nightbringe1 said:

I've also found that more than a few of the "boys" are RL girls that just don't want to deal with the stalkers.

If that's true, that's an interesting bit of information.  Because it tells me the girls who are hiding behind male characters and probably the ones worth "stalking".  Let's face it, the females who don't receive a whole lot of attention in the real world probably enjoy being hit on in the virtual one.

My wife always plays a female character.  She generally doesn't have any problem with harassment in game, but then she generally just groups with me (and other friends).

Zindaihas

Xthos said:

I would play my wives character in EQ (to help get quests/faction done or something), and people would hit on me all the time, made me feel a little creeped out.

Tell me about it.  Another thing I learned as a newbie in EQ is that not all female characters are female in RL.  I played for a couple months before I discovered that guys sometimes play female characters (which struck me as a little silly).  I don't mind flirting with some of the women in MMOs.  Nothing creepy, I just call 'em "hun" and stuff.  So now I screen characters before I start using terms of endearment with them.

But I played my brother's character several times in EQ as well.  He's very impatient and likes to get his items like right now.  I'm the epitome of patience which is why I don't mind travel times that give you the feeling your really in a big world.  I always found ways to keep myself occupied while waiting out camps.  Does anyone remember the griffin "Stormfeather" for the "Eyepatch of Plunder" quest?  He had one of the most outrageous spawn times of any mob in the game (I think it was like every nine hours with a variance of plus/minus a couple hours).  My brother got fed up with camping him and finally gave up.  So I camped it for him and got him the map piece he dropped for the quest.  And then I did it again a few weeks later for my own character.

shassell

As a lot of female characters are male, my wife has not really had any problems since the early days of EQ1 and EQ2. Most gamers now realise there are a lot of females playing and are mature enough to just get on with the game.

Amathe

Some people do not realize that not every player sees himself or herself as their character. I play females sometimes though I am not a female in real life. I'm also not an elf, a blacksmith, or an archer in real life (and my magical abilities are limited to a few card tricks).  

Amathe

Torval said:

Amathe said:

Some people do not realize that not every player sees himself or herself as their character. I play females sometimes though I am not a female in real life. I'm also not an elf, a blacksmith, or an archer in real life (and my magical abilities are limited to a few card tricks).  

That's a very old school D&D approach to participating in RPGs. I do the same because I build the persona for the character in the game based on a multitude of factors. That means my character may end up with a lot of characteristics that don't represent me personally. I think of it like creating characters in a story. Some games I do create a somewhat representative avatar. It all depends on the game, community, and my mood at the time.

Have you ever gone back to a game a some later point in time and looked at the roster and asked yourself WTF were you thinking? Cuz I have.

A dozen or so mmorpgs ago, when I first played EQ, I rolled a male ranger and, in my mind, I was that ranger. That is, he was a fantasy projection of myself. 

Also at that time, I took everything at face value. If your character was female, in my mind you were female.

As time passed I don't think either of those things anymore. 

Now my decisions about character gender are most likely to be influenced by how cool the armor looks for the class I will play. 

Adamantine

Theres absolutely nothing in roleplaying games like EQ, Vanguard or Pantheon that implies you're supposed to play yourself.

And I dont do so. I play male:female about 50:50. I spent some time on every character, to find a good name for them and work on their looks and more or less have a vague concept of their past and personality. For example my first main in Vanguard was male, then after a couple years I switched to a female main. Another example I dont play humans unless the game practically forces me to by making them overpowered. In Vanguard the Qualathari humans got a 10 sec invuln special ability, which was totally overpowered and saved my neck on my Qualiathari characters endless times.

In my experience if somebody insists on playing themselves or worse actually complaints if others dont play themselves in a roleplaying game that means they are either rarely playing roleplaying games or are just still very young, clueless and insecure.

TwystedWiz

azarhal said:

Xodic said:

Not enough information to form an opinion, but my belief is that every tool you add that circumvents the game world is essentially saying that you're aware of the game's shortcomings.

I would much rather see inns and taverns used as an interactive social hub rather than an anytime UI window. Looking for a group? Go to a tavern. Need a guild? Go to a town crier. Those are just examples, but using the world to implement these 'tools' would be in-line with "We're creating a world".

I remember Star Wars Galaxies used the cantinas to recover from battle or something like that. I thought that was really cool how they used the world to funnel people to the same areas.

Anything but another UI window to break immersion, please.

While I agree with you, gamers today wants everything now and couldn't care less about getting immersed.

That means waiting in a Tavern or going to the Town crier is too annoying and a waste of time.

Then those "gamers" probably won't be playing Pantheon.