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  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,388
    Gorwe said:

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    I hope you wont be offended if I don't trust you in that specific matter ;)
    I rather trust myself since I play this game daily.

    Fair enough. Your thoughts are your own after all. It's just that it SEEMS to me like it's trying to be modern without really knowing fully what that means.

    Also, why would I be offended? You clearly know more than I do.
    Adoni
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017

    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.
    IselinGorweklash2defGolelorn
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2017

    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.
    I think you take all this far to personally and I am not sure why people do take dispute so personally but its clear it gets under your skin.
    consider this: when was the last time you ever admited that you might be wrong about something?


    postlarval

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,077
    SEANMCAD said:

    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.
    I think you take all this far to personally and I am not sure why people do take dispute so personally but its clear it gets under your skin.
    consider this: when was the last time you ever admited that you might be wrong about something?


    Can't see how someone can be wrong about liking a game and actually enjoying himself.
    I know someone can be wrong though by disliking/hating a game yet sticking to it.

    I personally think Tera is one of the worse game I've every played, with its rigid classes and forced weapons and ugly mobs, but you won't see me on Tera forums on a crusade for this, I have better things to do with my online time.
    postlarvalQuarterStack
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:

    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.
    I think you take all this far to personally and I am not sure why people do take dispute so personally but its clear it gets under your skin.
    consider this: when was the last time you ever admited that you might be wrong about something?


    Can't see how someone can be wrong about liking a game and actually enjoying himself.
    I know someone can be wrong though by disliking/hating a game yet sticking to it.

    I personally think Tera is one of the worse game I've every played, with its rigid classes and forced weapons and ugly mobs, but you won't see me on Tera forums on a crusade for this, I have better things to do with my online time.
    I am just amazed at how people get offended by this stuff and then want to get personal. I dont even know what the debate is about to be fair I just see people throwing around personal mud, it does get old
    IselinYashaXpostlarval

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,077
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:

    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.
    I think you take all this far to personally and I am not sure why people do take dispute so personally but its clear it gets under your skin.
    consider this: when was the last time you ever admited that you might be wrong about something?


    Can't see how someone can be wrong about liking a game and actually enjoying himself.
    I know someone can be wrong though by disliking/hating a game yet sticking to it.

    I personally think Tera is one of the worse game I've every played, with its rigid classes and forced weapons and ugly mobs, but you won't see me on Tera forums on a crusade for this, I have better things to do with my online time.
    I am just amazed at how people get offended by this stuff and then want to get personal. I dont even know what the debate is about to be fair I just see people throwing around personal mud, it does get old
    Oh yeah, it's so surprising fans of a game actually like it and therefore defend it.
    I would be surprised too. </sarcasm>
    postlarvalQuarterStack
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,300
    SEANMCAD said:
    ... I dont even know what the debate is about ...
    Yeah, no shit, but that's never stopped you before.
    Jean-Luc_PicardGorweTalonsinimmodiumpostlarvalGolelornPpiperQuarterStack
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Iselin said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    ... I dont even know what the debate is about ...
    Yeah, no shit, but that's never stopped you before.
    and your point exactly?
    YashaX

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,388

    Gorwe said:
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    You and Sean McCad both seem to be awfully determined to force your personal views as being more "right" than others'... simply because "you say so". You both seem awfully determined to inflate your own views with these really "authoritative sounding", but ultimately meaningless assertions and embellishments.

    You for example, with the "trust me" comment.

    Why should we "trust you" about anything to do with ESO, over our own experiences and opinions of it? Because you don't like the game and we do? Because you feel playing GW1 and TERA gives you some kind of "superior insight" or something?

    That you don't like ESO, for whatever reason, does not constitute an "identity crisis". That's an absurd assertion for you to make. It just means you don't like ESO, and that's all. It's your opinion, and it's perfectly valid for you, and you are perfectly entitled to it. Trying to assign some elevated kind of importance to it, however, just makes you look ridiculous.

    Trust me, I can be rather stubborn and like(sometimes obscenely) being right. My bad. Mea culpa.

    And, you are right. These are just my opinions but I like to share them. And have a nice discussion like we're having here.
  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,392
    I love ESO when I group with competent people. I think its the best out there.

    The problem is, as we all know, very few people are competent, and ESO has not figured out how to not throw people who put out 2k dps or less in a dungeon that needs dps to crank out 20k+. Or a-hates who are not tanks will queue as tanks to get a group faster, then get one-shot and waste everyone's time.

    I guess the answer is to find a decent guild. I am attempting that, atm.

    But, like I said. I do not find it boring. There are plenty of things to do. I just find the group finder very frustrating, because it does not match gear with the dungeon(anyone less than 300 CP should not be getting the newer dungeon content as their random let alone a level 13).
  • GolelornGolelorn Member RarePosts: 1,392
    Darksworm said:
    Vutar said:
    During development they systematically nerfed xp in as many ways as they could except for questing.  They wanted to slow people down as much as possible.  Slow leveling and lots of time sinks is what really destroys a game. 



    Heh, no. Slow leveling does not destroy a game. In fact, fast leveling is what is making so many games be 1 month wonders. Time sinks for the sake of time sinks on the other hand are terrible. 
    Fast leveling is only bad when you have no end-game content - in other words, when your game isn't sufficiently finished, but you're using the leveling process as an artificial time sink so players can pay you while you finish it post-release.

    Slow leveling can often turn a game into a 1 month wonder because people will rush to end-game in all cases and when they get there, they will be turned off if there is insufficient content there.  They will tell the people who are still trudging through your leveling process about it, and those people may quit after one month themselves.

    There are very few games that can attract and keep a player base on the premise of "the leveling is the content."

    People on this forum almost act like everyone has unlimited time to spend years getting to end-game in a "video game."

    People don't play games for a challenge, they play games for entertainment.

    I think you people, ignorantly, have it a bit backwards.

    If you think the game is flawless, but most other players don't, you still end up with a shit game, because it gets niched off and the community is limited in size and growth potential.  You'll more likely than not end up playing on some mega server which throws everyone together in an attempt to make the game look like a bigger hit than it actually is.

    Personally, I found ESO as MMO as The Witcher III.  I played through it, and it was fine, but after I was done with the first Continent's main quest change, I had effectively beaten the game in my mind, because it offered nothing else mildly attractive to me.

    I also didn't find the community any better than any other game's, but that wasn't surprising to me.  A lot of the same people who played other games and made those communities what they were also play or migrated to ESO and brought their attitudes with them.  This forum is a pretty good indicator of that (the people that are awful on this forum are equally if not more awful when logged into ESO, WoW, or any other MMORPG).
    You can level in ESO in less than 2 days hard play to 50. Of course, a new player can't do that - you need resources. But what game can a new player level to max quickly? And... I do agree with you. Leveling faster should be an option in ESO. I do find it tiresome. Buts its the genre.. not the game.

    Also, do not forget. Once at 50 you do not have to regrind CP.

    And if you think a max CP toon should be had quickly.... wow. CP is better than gear in ESO. A naked 660 CP toon is stronger than a max gear CP 160 toon.
    Gorwe
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,300
    Golelorn said:
    I love ESO when I group with competent people. I think its the best out there.

    The problem is, as we all know, very few people are competent, and ESO has not figured out how to not throw people who put out 2k dps or less in a dungeon that needs dps to crank out 20k+. Or a-hates who are not tanks will queue as tanks to get a group faster, then get one-shot and waste everyone's time.

    I guess the answer is to find a decent guild. I am attempting that, atm.

    But, like I said. I do not find it boring. There are plenty of things to do. I just find the group finder very frustrating, because it does not match gear with the dungeon(anyone less than 300 CP should not be getting the newer dungeon content as their random let alone a level 13).
    Well they partially fixed some of that with the latest CwC update: anyone under level 45 can no longer get any DLC dungeons nor version 2 dungeons through the group finder. The vet dungeon restriction is for DLC dungeons only and that one is CP160. 

    And I agree that there are problems with both low DPS and fake tanks and even occasionally fake healers. I have some patience for the low DPS people but the queue jumping fake roles I have little patience for.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017
    Golelorn said:

    You can level in ESO in less than 2 days hard play to 50. Of course, a new player can't do that - you need resources. But what game can a new player level to max quickly? And... I do agree with you. Leveling faster should be an option in ESO. I do find it tiresome. Buts its the genre.. not the game.

    Also, do not forget. Once at 50 you do not have to regrind CP.

    And if you think a max CP toon should be had quickly.... wow. CP is better than gear in ESO. A naked 660 CP toon is stronger than a max gear CP 160 toon.
    I don't agree that it "should be an option".

    But here's a question to that end: Why?

    What is it about getting to the end, especially in a genre that's decidedly about the adventure (~90% of the game takes place before the end and contains the vast, vast majority of the content), that makes people feel they have to race to get there?

    I'm sincerely curious about this, because it seems to me people are just stunting and undermining their own experience by playing this way. Time and again, they race to the end, skipping through cutscenes/dialogue, avoiding content that "isn't worth the reward" and generally tracking the "most efficient path to level cap". Then they burn through the end-game content in a few weeks, and are left bored with "nothing to do" because they just raced past/through all of it.

    People will dismiss everything pre-level cap by saying "it's just a tutorial", or "it's just filler", or "it's just there to slow you down so you'll have to play longer". There's a boat load of problems with that last one in particular, especially for as often as I see it argued; of course they want you to stick around as long as possible.. it's at the heart of the business and the design. MMORPGs are long-term hobbies. They're services. They aren't intended to be something you just shoot through, finish, and put down. You can. But that's not what they're designed as. This is why they continually add new content... to give you more to do and more reason to keep playing.

    But here's the catch to that which people never seem to consider... they have to make sure you're entertained enough to stick around at all in the first place. If they can't keep you engaged and wanting to log in to begin with, then the rest doesn't matter.

    It baffles me how people literally complain about a game which, by design, is intended to keep them engaged for a long time... because it provides content which keeps them playing for a long time. It's like complaining that motorcycles "only have 2 wheels and no side windows to keep the air out". It completely misses the point of the design.

    To my mind, it's the most counter-intuitive approach you can take to playing a game at all, much less one specifically designed around on-going adventure; unless it's specifically a racing game where getting to a finish line the fastest is the goal.

    Racing to the end in a MMORPG results only in on-going lay-overs and holding patterns, as players wait for the next batch of end-game content to roll in, so they can race through that and find themselves right back in the same position. That doesn't sound fun to me at all... and from all the complaints of "boredom" I see from such people across the genre, it's clearly not. So why do people obsessively and repeatedly engage in that kind of playstyle? That whole "definition of insanity" thing comes to mind. Why race toward what is ultimately going to be nothing but extended stretches of boredom, punctuated by shorter periods of entertainment?

    Another common thing I see said is "I don't have enough time, and it takes too long to do "x" in -insert game here-". This is another statement that sounds valid on its face, but rather falls apart when you think about it further. Of course you have the time to play the game... you're playing it. The problem isn't a "lack of time", it's that you want to be able to obtain/achieve something in a quicker time-frame than your available time allows. This is where the whole "I have a career and family and can't spend hours playing MMOs like I used to. Therefor MMOs should change to fit my schedule/lifestyle better" type of arguments come from.

    People find it unfair that someone with more time to play can achieve things "more quickly" than they can. It's perfectly fair. At the end of the day, you're both going to be facing the same challenges and obstacles, and probably the same overall amount of in-game time played (not "real world time" - important distinction there) to achieve that goal. The difference is in how that time is distributed. Is it across one 10 hour session, five 2 hour sessions, or some other breakdown?

    What people are really saying when they say "I don't have the time" is, "I don't have the time to sit and achieve that goal in a single session like someone with 10 hours to play does, and I don't like that". Then, they expect the game devs to change the design so they can have that goal in a single session. It's a completely self-entitled mentality. The game developer is not responsible for their players' life decisions. The players are. Devs are responsible for producing a product that people will want to stick around and play. They are not responsible for catering to every individual's life circumstances.

    Rather than saying "I have more limited time to play so here's what the devs should do", the responsible, reasonable thing to say, I think, is "I have more limited play time, how should I re-prioritize and plan my play sessions to achieve my goals accordingly?". It's what people did back in the "old school days" - yes, there were people playing EQ1 and DAoC and UO and all those games who balanced playtime with careers and families and such as well. They adapted to their situation. They didn't demand or expect that the developers do so. Big difference.

    Long rant there... lol. But it's pretty much what goes through my mind when ever I see posts where people talk about how it "takes too long" or "should be faster". There's so much behind such statements.
    IselinDemogorgonlaseritGhostRider00gervaise1
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,336
    edited November 2017
    How dumb are people to join groups as a fake tank. Once a serious mob hits you ,you go down and the gig is up. How is that in any way time saving or achieving the goal of joining the dungeon group since you die and waste everyone's time. This is so annoying how people are constantly doing stupid things to speed up their advancement at the expense of others.

    Just like the damn fools who join a group and go afk.

    This is why you need a serious death penalty so they're mindful of their own limitations and don't advertise themselves as other than what they really are.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,300
    Golelorn said:

    You can level in ESO in less than 2 days hard play to 50. Of course, a new player can't do that - you need resources. But what game can a new player level to max quickly? And... I do agree with you. Leveling faster should be an option in ESO. I do find it tiresome. Buts its the genre.. not the game.

    Also, do not forget. Once at 50 you do not have to regrind CP.

    And if you think a max CP toon should be had quickly.... wow. CP is better than gear in ESO. A naked 660 CP toon is stronger than a max gear CP 160 toon.
    I don't agree that it "should be an option".

    But here's a question to that end: Why?

    What is it about getting to the end, especially in a genre that's decidedly about the adventure (~90% of the game takes place before the end and contains the vast, vast majority of the content), that makes people feel they have to race to get there?

    I'm sincerely curious about this, because it seems to me people are just stunting and undermining their own experience by playing this way. Time and again, they race to the end, skipping through cutscenes/dialogue, avoiding content that "isn't worth the reward" and generally tracking the "most efficient path to level cap". Then they burn through the end-game content in a few weeks, and are left bored with "nothing to do" because they just raced past/through all of it.


    Especially in ESO since it's not nearly as end-game focused as other MMOs. The trials are neither particularly numerous nor difficult- it's not a raiders MMO despite having raids.

    The gear that you get in trials is also not particularly BIS gear. For example, Twice Fanged Serpent from Sanctum Ophidia may be better than Spriggan's that you get from Bangkorai quests and overland drops but it's debatable. And if it is better, it's just barely so. And the meta for stamina DPS all pair either of those with Hundig's Rage which is a crafted set and only a 6-trait set that almost anyone can craft. You can 100% fully gear up with the best stamina DPS gear at CP160 without ever setting foot in a trial.

    The "game starts at end-game" mentality just doesn't work in ESO. It's also about the same as saying "Hi, I'm from WOW and I don't understand how ESO works." :)
    laseritQuarterStack
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    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,300
    kitarad said:
    How dumb are people to join groups as a fake tank. Once a serious mob hits you ,you go down and the gig is up. How is that in any way time saving or achieving the goal of joining the dungeon group since you die and waste everyone's time. This is so annoying how people are constantly doing stupid things to speed up their advancement at the expense of others.

    Just like the damn fools who join a group and go afk.

    This is why you need a serious death penalty so they're mindful of their own limitations and don't advertise themselves as other than what they really are.
    Well, there are a couple of things that contribute to making fake tank asshattery a fairly common thing in ESO:

    1. Normal dungeons, especially the standard version 1 dungeons, are easy - too easy.
    2. Level scaling in dungeons (which has been a thing since long before One Tamriel made it that way everywhere) makes it likely that you will be randomly grouped with at least one person who is high CP and geared enough that they could solo it. When you get someone like that in your group (and I'm frequently one of those someones myself if I'm running a normal dungeon for the quick daily reward) the fake tank can just be ignored and gets carried.

    The fake tank problem usually doesn't become a problem unless it's an all low level group. And it's much less of a problem in Veteran difficulty dungeon runs because not many will try to get away with that crap when they're playing with experienced players.

    I used to regularly initiate votes to kick them when I spotted one but it has become such a common thing that I just threw my hands up in the air and only kick them if they're really pathetic at it. It's sort of funny but most players these days would agree that there are two different types of fake tanks: the clueless and pathetic ones and the ones that sort of muddle through trying to do something that resembles tanking.

    Some people will always vote to kick them just on general principle because of their selfishness in queue jumping since tanks get a random dungeon in literally under 5 seconds and it can take DPS several minutes.

    It's definitely a problem in ESO and the #1 cause of failed dungeon runs.
    laserit
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017
    Iselin said:



    Especially in ESO since it's not nearly as end-game focused as other MMOs. The trials are neither particularly numerous nor difficult- it's not a raiders MMO despite having raids.

    The gear that you get in trials is also not particularly BIS gear. For example, Twice Fanged Serpent from Sanctum Ophidia may be better than Spriggan's that you get from Bangkorai quests and overland drops but it's debatable. And if it is better, it's just barely so. And the meta for stamina DPS all pair either of those with Hundig's Rage which is a crafted set and only a 6-trait set that almost anyone can craft. You can 100% fully gear up with the best stamina DPS gear at CP160 without ever setting foot in a trial.

    The "game starts at end-game" mentality just doesn't work in ESO. It's also about the same as saying "Hi, I'm from WOW and I don't understand how ESO works." :)
    Very good point!

    There's a couple posts elsewhere here where someone's telling me how there's no true variety in ESO's character builds because it's all about the meta, and anything less sucks and you'll never get into end-game content unless you're following those builds.

    I know what they're talking about, becuase I've seen it in every MMO I've played. Hell, in FFXI that happened well before end-game; I couldn't get into CoP or BCNM groups if I had "the wrong job" or "the wrong setup".

    What they don't seem to understand is such restrictions come from the players, not the game. The players dictate that those are "the one and only build you're supposed to use". The game doesn't dictate that. If a setup can get the job done (as previous FoTM builds clearly could, or they wouldn't have been FoTM), then they are perfectly viable to go with. Again, the players demand "FoTM builds" for that content, not the game.

    The point they're all missing is... all those builds are effective. They all work. They all get the job done. Ergo, there are a variety of options in how you can choose to play in end-game content. It's not the game limiting it, it's the players themselves. Once again, an example of how MMO players can be their own worst enemies, killing their own enjoyment.

    I check out different vids on YT, from folks like Deltia or Alcast, or others, and they're all coming up with these different builds, for PvE and PvP. They all put out insane damage, have great utility, and offer a variety of different gear sets, build-outs and skill setups. It's impossible to see all of these build options and say, with any kind of honesty, that ESO doesn't offer enough "real options". It's all in how you mix the gear with the traits, glyphs, mundus stone, class, weapons and skill loadouts. Certain gear won't work well with one build, but will work great with another. It's all in finding the synergy between each aspect, and then making the most of it.

    And yeah, the whole "the real game starts at level cap" thing does not apply to ESO at all. I don't agree with that mindset in general - to me, the "real game" starts at character creation - but it most certainly does not apply here. People can try to play it that way, but they are literally playing against the game's design.

    There's another vid I saw on YT where the person was coming back to give ESO another try, after having hated it previous times. This time, they tried something different. They'd been trying to play it like a typical WoW-style themepark MMO, and it wasn't working (for good reason). They decided to try approaching it more like they would a single-player Elder Scrolls game, and suddenly the whole game came alive for them and they ended up loving it. Go figure, eh?
    YashaX
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,944
    Iselin said:



    Especially in ESO since it's not nearly as end-game focused as other MMOs. The trials are neither particularly numerous nor difficult- it's not a raiders MMO despite having raids.

    The gear that you get in trials is also not particularly BIS gear. For example, Twice Fanged Serpent from Sanctum Ophidia may be better than Spriggan's that you get from Bangkorai quests and overland drops but it's debatable. And if it is better, it's just barely so. And the meta for stamina DPS all pair either of those with Hundig's Rage which is a crafted set and only a 6-trait set that almost anyone can craft. You can 100% fully gear up with the best stamina DPS gear at CP160 without ever setting foot in a trial.

    The "game starts at end-game" mentality just doesn't work in ESO. It's also about the same as saying "Hi, I'm from WOW and I don't understand how ESO works." :)
    Very good point!

    There's a couple posts elsewhere here where someone's telling me how there's no true variety in ESO's character builds because it's all about the meta, and anything less sucks and you'll never get into end-game content unless you're following those builds.

    I know what they're talking about, becuase I've seen it in every MMO I've played. Hell, in FFXI that happened well before end-game; I couldn't get into CoP or BCNM groups if I had "the wrong job" or "the wrong setup".

    What they don't seem to understand is such restrictions come from the players, not the game. The players dictate that those are "the one and only build you're supposed to use". The game doesn't dictate that. If a setup can get the job done (as previous FoTM builds clearly could, or they wouldn't have been FoTM), then they are perfectly viable to go with. Again, the players demand "FoTM builds" for that content, not the game.

    The point they're all missing is... all those builds are effective. They all work. They all get the job done. Ergo, there are a variety of options in how you can choose to play in end-game content. It's not the game limiting it, it's the players themselves. Once again, an example of how MMO players can be their own worst enemies, killing their own enjoyment.

    I check out different vids on YT, from folks like Deltia or Alcast, or others, and they're all coming up with these different builds, for PvE and PvP. They all put out insane damage, have great utility, and offer a variety of different gear sets, build-outs and skill setups. It's impossible to see all of these build options and say, with any kind of honesty, that ESO doesn't offer enough "real options". It's all in how you mix the gear with the traits, glyphs, mundus stone, class, weapons and skill loadouts. Certain gear won't work well with one build, but will work great with another. It's all in finding the synergy between each aspect, and then making the most of it.

    And yeah, the whole "the real game starts at level cap" thing does not apply to ESO at all. I don't agree with that mindset in general - to me, the "real game" starts at character creation - but it most certainly does not apply here. People can try to play it that way, but they are literally playing against the game's design.

    There's another vid I saw on YT where the person was coming back to give ESO another try, after having hated it previous times. This time, they tried something different. They'd been trying to play it like a typical WoW-style themepark MMO, and it wasn't working (for good reason). They decided to try approaching it more like they would a single-player Elder Scrolls game, and suddenly the whole game came alive for them and they ended up loving it. Go figure, eh?

    Nope.  ZoS fails in balance in several ways, the biggest is they design content around the meta that emerges instead of addressing the core of the problem.

    The whole point of getting to higher levels of power is greater challenges.  If you have to conform to a meta in order to complete that content then there is no real build freedom. 

    You can blame the players all you want, but ZoS is the one designing around meta stats.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,300
    Iselin said:



    Especially in ESO since it's not nearly as end-game focused as other MMOs. The trials are neither particularly numerous nor difficult- it's not a raiders MMO despite having raids.

    The gear that you get in trials is also not particularly BIS gear. For example, Twice Fanged Serpent from Sanctum Ophidia may be better than Spriggan's that you get from Bangkorai quests and overland drops but it's debatable. And if it is better, it's just barely so. And the meta for stamina DPS all pair either of those with Hundig's Rage which is a crafted set and only a 6-trait set that almost anyone can craft. You can 100% fully gear up with the best stamina DPS gear at CP160 without ever setting foot in a trial.

    The "game starts at end-game" mentality just doesn't work in ESO. It's also about the same as saying "Hi, I'm from WOW and I don't understand how ESO works." :)
    Very good point!

    There's a couple posts elsewhere here where someone's telling me how there's no true variety in ESO's character builds because it's all about the meta, and anything less sucks and you'll never get into end-game content unless you're following those builds.

    I know what they're talking about, becuase I've seen it in every MMO I've played. Hell, in FFXI that happened well before end-game; I couldn't get into CoP or BCNM groups if I had "the wrong job" or "the wrong setup".

    What they don't seem to understand is such restrictions come from the players, not the game. The players dictate that those are "the one and only build you're supposed to use". The game doesn't dictate that. If a setup can get the job done (as previous FoTM builds clearly could, or they wouldn't have been FoTM), then they are perfectly viable to go with. Again, the players demand "FoTM builds" for that content, not the game.

    The point they're all missing is... all those builds are effective. They all work. They all get the job done. Ergo, there are a variety of options in how you can choose to play in end-game content. It's not the game limiting it, it's the players themselves. Once again, an example of how MMO players can be their own worst enemies, killing their own enjoyment.

    I check out different vids on YT, from folks like Deltia or Alcast, or others, and they're all coming up with these different builds, for PvE and PvP. They all put out insane damage, have great utility, and offer a variety of different gear sets, build-outs and skill setups. It's impossible to see all of these build options and say, with any kind of honesty, that ESO doesn't offer enough "real options". It's all in how you mix the gear with the traits, glyphs, mundus stone, class, weapons and skill loadouts. Certain gear won't work well with one build, but will work great with another. It's all in finding the synergy between each aspect, and then making the most of it.

    And yeah, the whole "the real game starts at level cap" thing does not apply to ESO at all. I don't agree with that mindset in general - to me, the "real game" starts at character creation - but it most certainly does not apply here. People can try to play it that way, but they are literally playing against the game's design.

    There's another vid I saw on YT where the person was coming back to give ESO another try, after having hated it previous times. This time, they tried something different. They'd been trying to play it like a typical WoW-style themepark MMO, and it wasn't working (for good reason). They decided to try approaching it more like they would a single-player Elder Scrolls game, and suddenly the whole game came alive for them and they ended up loving it. Go figure, eh?

    Nope.  ZoS fails in balance in several ways, the biggest is they design content around the meta that emerges instead of addressing the core of the problem.

    The whole point of getting to higher levels of power is greater challenges.  If you have to conform to a meta in order to complete that content then there is no real build freedom. 

    You can blame the players all you want, but ZoS is the one designing around meta stats.
    Do you have some examples of "designing content around the meta"? I honestly have no clue what you're talking about.

    If anything, content is ESO is designed around the lowest common denominator, not the high end meta.

    I assume you know that since you just told someone in another thread to do whatever because it doesn't matter :expressionless:
    QuarterStackgervaise1
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017
    SEANMCAD said:

    I think you take all this far to personally and I am not sure why people do take dispute so personally but its clear it gets under your skin.
    consider this: when was the last time you ever admited that you might be wrong about something?


    I'm not taking anything personally.

    You, however, are making it personal by responding with an ad-hom, then following up with a strawman.

    Two fallacies in as many sentences. Well done!

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:

    I think you take all this far to personally and I am not sure why people do take dispute so personally but its clear it gets under your skin.
    consider this: when was the last time you ever admited that you might be wrong about something?


    I'm not taking anything personally.

    You, however, are making it personal by resorting to a response that is both an ad-hom and a strawman, all in one. Two fallacies in as many sentences. Well done!

    everyone (well many of them) have moved on from the 'oh look its SeanMcad lets derail' yesterday so your behind.
    postlarval

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,388
    Iselin said:



    Especially in ESO since it's not nearly as end-game focused as other MMOs. The trials are neither particularly numerous nor difficult- it's not a raiders MMO despite having raids.

    The gear that you get in trials is also not particularly BIS gear. For example, Twice Fanged Serpent from Sanctum Ophidia may be better than Spriggan's that you get from Bangkorai quests and overland drops but it's debatable. And if it is better, it's just barely so. And the meta for stamina DPS all pair either of those with Hundig's Rage which is a crafted set and only a 6-trait set that almost anyone can craft. You can 100% fully gear up with the best stamina DPS gear at CP160 without ever setting foot in a trial.

    The "game starts at end-game" mentality just doesn't work in ESO. It's also about the same as saying "Hi, I'm from WOW and I don't understand how ESO works." :)
    Very good point!

    There's a couple posts elsewhere here where someone's telling me how there's no true variety in ESO's character builds because it's all about the meta, and anything less sucks and you'll never get into end-game content unless you're following those builds.

    I know what they're talking about, becuase I've seen it in every MMO I've played. Hell, in FFXI that happened well before end-game; I couldn't get into CoP or BCNM groups if I had "the wrong job" or "the wrong setup".

    What they don't seem to understand is such restrictions come from the players, not the game. The players dictate that those are "the one and only build you're supposed to use". The game doesn't dictate that. If a setup can get the job done (as previous FoTM builds clearly could, or they wouldn't have been FoTM), then they are perfectly viable to go with. Again, the players demand "FoTM builds" for that content, not the game.

    The point they're all missing is... all those builds are effective. They all work. They all get the job done. Ergo, there are a variety of options in how you can choose to play in end-game content. It's not the game limiting it, it's the players themselves. Once again, an example of how MMO players can be their own worst enemies, killing their own enjoyment.

    I check out different vids on YT, from folks like Deltia or Alcast, or others, and they're all coming up with these different builds, for PvE and PvP. They all put out insane damage, have great utility, and offer a variety of different gear sets, build-outs and skill setups. It's impossible to see all of these build options and say, with any kind of honesty, that ESO doesn't offer enough "real options". It's all in how you mix the gear with the traits, glyphs, mundus stone, class, weapons and skill loadouts. Certain gear won't work well with one build, but will work great with another. It's all in finding the synergy between each aspect, and then making the most of it.

    And yeah, the whole "the real game starts at level cap" thing does not apply to ESO at all. I don't agree with that mindset in general - to me, the "real game" starts at character creation - but it most certainly does not apply here. People can try to play it that way, but they are literally playing against the game's design.

    There's another vid I saw on YT where the person was coming back to give ESO another try, after having hated it previous times. This time, they tried something different. They'd been trying to play it like a typical WoW-style themepark MMO, and it wasn't working (for good reason). They decided to try approaching it more like they would a single-player Elder Scrolls game, and suddenly the whole game came alive for them and they ended up loving it. Go figure, eh?
    But what if one doesn't necessarily like TES in itself? I mean its gameplay, all the interesting lore can't replace boring gameplay. And I'm so not a fan of post Morrowind TES(the only good TES since then was Shivering imo).
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017


    Nope.  ZoS fails in balance in several ways, the biggest is they design content around the meta that emerges instead of addressing the core of the problem.

    The whole point of getting to higher levels of power is greater challenges.  If you have to conform to a meta in order to complete that content then there is no real build freedom. 

    You can blame the players all you want, but ZoS is the one designing around meta stats.
    Then every single MMO in existence has a lack of build freedom, it's never the players' fault, and always the devs'.

    Every single MMORPG in existence has meta. Every single one of them has people whom, like you, insist that the meta is THE one and only way to play the game, that you would be excluded from the content if you didn't follow it strictly, and that it's the 'devs fault'; not the players restricting themselves.

    I was excluded from end-game content in FFXIV because "I didn't have the right build" (aka I wasn't following "the meta"), even while others who didn't follow the meta but put in the time and effort were clearing that content.

    I was excluded from content even well before end-game in FFXI. CoP content, BCNMs and so forth.. I was unable to participate in those because "I didn't have the right job/build" (aka I wasn't following "the meta").

    I was excluded from content in WoW because "I didn't have the right builds and, further, wasn't using the correct "required" addons".

    I was excluded from Nightmare content in The Secret World if I didn't have "the right build" (aka I wasn't following "the meta").

    And on and on and on.

    Every single MMORPG I've played, or even just casually followed over the last decade+ has had that same group of people at end game, with that same mentality, and they all "blamed the devs" for it.

    Yet, in each of those games, other groups would get together with "non-meta" setups, and somehow clear the content, by adapting and changing their strategies to fit the build they had, rather than trying to adhere to the one dictated by the latest "guide du jour". And, like you, people in those games would never acknowledge this. They would never admit that the "meta"was not the only way to clear that content, until someone found something that worked better (faster clear time, etc)... Then they quickly adopted *that* approach as being "the meta", and insisted that was the "only way to clear the content", and continued to blame the devs for "making it so limited".

    You can keep beating that drum all you like, claiming the problem is somehow "uniquely bad" in ESO, and that it's "the devs fault" that players refuse to go with anything but what they've deemed "the right way to play". This has been the case for as long as such a thing as "end game meta" has existed.

    But, by all means, do provide a break-down of every other build people may feasibly try in said content, for each role, and break down why they absolutely could not work, in any scenario. Demonstrate why only the ones defined by the current "meta" could ever possibly be successful in said content. Show us the math, parse the parser data from all other possible configurations, and demonstrate that you actually know the game well enough to back up your claims.

    Show us that all your bluster isn't just you regurgitating what you've read/heard others say about it, and you aren't only asserting it so fervently because you really want to bash on ESO and "end game meta" is the particular hill you've chosen to die on.

    Demonstrate why anyone should take your word for it, that you know what you're talking about moreso than Iselin or others in these forums who have already disagreed with you and provided explanations why.
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
    IselinRexKushman
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017
    Gorwe said:

    But what if one doesn't necessarily like TES in itself? I mean its gameplay, all the interesting lore can't replace boring gameplay. And I'm so not a fan of post Morrowind TES(the only good TES since then was Shivering imo).
    Suddenly, out of left field... Gorwe appears, apparently unaware of the discussion taking place...

    What an incredibly, weirdly irrelevant question to ask. I'm discussing the whole idea of meta in MMORPGs.. and you're asking "well what if they aren't into the lore and just find the gameplay boring"?

    But I'll answer you with a more reasonable, obvious question... "Why the hell are you playing a game you find so boring and uninteresting in the first place, whatever that game might be?"

    Gorwe, you are clearly committed to challenging me, and others, on our arguments, and in pushing your view that ESO is not a good game, for whatever your reasons. I respect that. But can you please put more effort into asking relevant questions that you couldn't easily answer yourself?

    Post edited by QuarterStack on
    gervaise1YashaX
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,300

    Every single MMORPG I've played, or even just casually followed over the last decade+ has had that same group of people at end game, with that same mentality, and they all "blamed the devs" for it.

    Amen to that.

    The sad thing is that they often don't even play the elite, end-game, hard mode trials that those meta specs are all about. What % of the population even in games that are all about end-game raiding, which ESO certainly isn't, does that meta even apply to?

    There is wisdom and knowledge to be gained from looking at those meta specs and using that knowledge to build your own spec for the type of content you do like to play. For example, I personally like to be more self reliant and not think that my random PUG will have an elite healer in the group. So I slot non-meta self heals that a DPS raider would never slot.

    But some people totally misunderstand what they're seeing and get bitter about the game and the developers when they see that there's a consensus among the most elite of the elite raiders that this one thing is the best. Yeah, it's the best for THAT... for now. Something else will be the best after the next patch just like it happened to Nirnhoned or even Infused replacing Sharpened weapons a couple of weeks ago for the new meta.


    QuarterStack
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
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