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  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Gorwe said:
    Does this game actually get interesting? Sure, the audiovisuals are breathtaking and the world building's amazing. Even the little stories are fun and interesting. BUT! The combat S.U.C.K.S. Really, it's one of the worst combat systems I ever saw. No impact, very spammy(this comes from someone who likes the likes of Arsenal Mercenary in SWTOR!), next to no sense of progression(yeah, thanks One Tamriel! I thought that we graduated this issue with Oblivion...guess not), too open zones...

    This is almost painful to play. Sure, visiting Hammerfell or Elsweyr or the like is always awesome, but...THAT COMBAT!

    Must say... I didn't think I would ever see someone complaining about zones being "too open".

    When I see people overstating the level scaling, or insisting there is no progression, I wonder if they've actually really played the game at all. At best, I imagine they saw it has "level scaling", remember that Oblivion had level scaling, and assume it's exactly the same. It's not. It's not traditional level progression, but there is definitely progression there.

    A world boss that one-shotted me at level 24 has a much harder time of it now that I'm into my CP levels and have better gear and skills, etc.

    If I'm wrong, please post footage of someone on a new character somewhere like Bloodroot Forge, or hell, even Cradle of Shadows, or White Gold Tower, and reliably performing on par with more advanced and developed characters. Post their parse results.

    As for the combat... To each their own, I guess. I rather enjoy it.

    It's more about the lack of direction than how open it is. I have nothing against big worlds provided you are guided through them. Now, the modern open world sandbox like design? /pass
    I have a friend who just don't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    I mean, I did like Morrowind(but maybe not the game as much as the setting, hm) and I did like Dark Souls, so I kinda doubt it's that. But yeah, I had that almost allergic reaction to Skyrim too. It was...pointless to me with very sub average stories(the main baddie is a Dragon? I know all about Alduin, Arkay and the significance of Dragons in TES, but...come on!) and CYA nonsense. I'd much, much rather play Shadowrun Dragonfall than Skyrim.
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited November 2017
    Gorwe said:
    Gorwe said:
    Does this game actually get interesting? Sure, the audiovisuals are breathtaking and the world building's amazing. Even the little stories are fun and interesting. BUT! The combat S.U.C.K.S. Really, it's one of the worst combat systems I ever saw. No impact, very spammy(this comes from someone who likes the likes of Arsenal Mercenary in SWTOR!), next to no sense of progression(yeah, thanks One Tamriel! I thought that we graduated this issue with Oblivion...guess not), too open zones...

    This is almost painful to play. Sure, visiting Hammerfell or Elsweyr or the like is always awesome, but...THAT COMBAT!


    It's more about the lack of direction than how open it is. I have nothing against big worlds provided you are guided through them. Now, the modern open world sandbox like design? /pass
    It's as guided or free-form as you want it to be.

    The main story arc will absolutely keep you moving forward if you choose to stick to that. If there's not a direct goal "at present", the Prophet will appear to you when there is, and say "Hey, we're ready to move forward, come meet with me at the Harborage". Otherwise other NPCs will do the same. There are quest markers on your compass, and on the world map. You can go into the Quest journal, select the desired quest, press 'M', and it'll show you where you need to go.

    Now, if you get easily sidetracked by other stuff? Well, understandable with how much the game offers you to do at any given time... but still, that comes down to self-control and focus, which is on the player, not the game.

    No matter how long I'm doing other stuff, once I've decided to hop back on the main questline, or a side quest-line, I've had every bit as much guidance as I could have wanted, or expected from another MMO (except maybe FFXIV; that game's rails are on rails).

    Or.... you can take a break from that, go off and work on other stuff and then return to it when ever you want.

    ESO is designed very much designed as a World. It seems you're more drawn to titles designed as Games. Nothing wrong with that. But, there is a difference between the two. I very much prefer ESO's approach over the linear, strictly guided approach.




  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    edited November 2017
    Gorwe said:
    Gorwe said:
    Does this game actually get interesting? Sure, the audiovisuals are breathtaking and the world building's amazing. Even the little stories are fun and interesting. BUT! The combat S.U.C.K.S. Really, it's one of the worst combat systems I ever saw. No impact, very spammy(this comes from someone who likes the likes of Arsenal Mercenary in SWTOR!), next to no sense of progression(yeah, thanks One Tamriel! I thought that we graduated this issue with Oblivion...guess not), too open zones...

    This is almost painful to play. Sure, visiting Hammerfell or Elsweyr or the like is always awesome, but...THAT COMBAT!


    It's more about the lack of direction than how open it is. I have nothing against big worlds provided you are guided through them. Now, the modern open world sandbox like design? /pass
    It's as guided or free-form as you want it to be.

    The main story arc will absolutely keep you moving forward if you choose to stick to that. If there's not a direct goal "at present", the Prophet will appear to you when there is, and say "Hey, we're ready to move forward, come meet with me at the Harborage". Otherwise other NPCs will do the same. There are quest markers on your compass, and on the world map. You can go into the Quest journal, select the desired quest, press 'M', and it'll show you where you need to go.

    Now, if you get easily sidetracked by other stuff? Well, understandable with how much the game offers you to do at any given time... but still, that comes down to self-control and focus, which is on the player, not the game.

    No matter how long I'm doing other stuff, once I've decided to hop back on the main questline, or a side quest-line, I've had every bit as much guidance as I could have wanted, or expected from another MMO (except maybe FFXIV; that game's rails are on rails).

    Or.... you can take a break from that, go off and work on other stuff and then return to it when ever you want.

    ESO is designed very much designed as a World. It seems you're more drawn to titles designed as Games. Nothing wrong with that. But, there is a difference between the two. I very much prefer ESO's approach over the linear, strictly guided approach.





    Yeah, I prefer games to be games. And entertaining in that aspect. I've no use of open world.

    edit: I don't necessarily like strictly guided experiences like Dark Messiah or Half Life. But they are MUCH BETTER / FUN to me than, say, Minecraft or Skyrim or GTA.
    bcbullyseraphis79
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997
    edited November 2017
    Darksworm said:

    There is nothing unfun about WoW, to the average MMORPG gamer.  That's probably why it's still one of the few games able to sustain itself on a subscription model.  There is a lot of things you can criticize WoW for - being a "snorefest" is definitely not one of them, unless you spend your time in town looking at the screen while you post B.S. about it at the mmorpg.com forums.
    And you sprung my trap, congratulations.
    You can ask veteran posters here, I'm one of the defenders of WoW and also a first time player of that game, who was in beta and started on day one in November 2004. I have two WoW accounts still running today as we speak.

    So what's your point? I mean, some valid point, past using assumptions about me and WoW to try to invalidate my also positive opinion about ESO, of course.

    I'm not trying to invalidate anything.  There are no point in invalidating opinions.  They're opinions.  Some of them are just trash, and aren't worth wasting the energy trying to tactfully take them down.  Not sure what you mean by your "trap."  It sounds almost like you're only here to troll.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997
    Vutar said:
    During development they systematically nerfed xp in as many ways as they could except for questing.  They wanted to slow people down as much as possible.  Slow leveling and lots of time sinks is what really destroys a game. 



    Heh, no. Slow leveling does not destroy a game. In fact, fast leveling is what is making so many games be 1 month wonders. Time sinks for the sake of time sinks on the other hand are terrible. 
    Fast leveling is only bad when you have no end-game content - in other words, when your game isn't sufficiently finished, but you're using the leveling process as an artificial time sink so players can pay you while you finish it post-release.

    Slow leveling can often turn a game into a 1 month wonder because people will rush to end-game in all cases and when they get there, they will be turned off if there is insufficient content there.  They will tell the people who are still trudging through your leveling process about it, and those people may quit after one month themselves.

    There are very few games that can attract and keep a player base on the premise of "the leveling is the content."

    People on this forum almost act like everyone has unlimited time to spend years getting to end-game in a "video game."

    People don't play games for a challenge, they play games for entertainment.

    I think you people, ignorantly, have it a bit backwards.

    If you think the game is flawless, but most other players don't, you still end up with a shit game, because it gets niched off and the community is limited in size and growth potential.  You'll more likely than not end up playing on some mega server which throws everyone together in an attempt to make the game look like a bigger hit than it actually is.

    Personally, I found ESO as MMO as The Witcher III.  I played through it, and it was fine, but after I was done with the first Continent's main quest change, I had effectively beaten the game in my mind, because it offered nothing else mildly attractive to me.

    I also didn't find the community any better than any other game's, but that wasn't surprising to me.  A lot of the same people who played other games and made those communities what they were also play or migrated to ESO and brought their attitudes with them.  This forum is a pretty good indicator of that (the people that are awful on this forum are equally if not more awful when logged into ESO, WoW, or any other MMORPG).
    YashaX
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    edited November 2017
    Darksworm said:
    Darksworm said:

    There is nothing unfun about WoW, to the average MMORPG gamer.  That's probably why it's still one of the few games able to sustain itself on a subscription model.  There is a lot of things you can criticize WoW for - being a "snorefest" is definitely not one of them, unless you spend your time in town looking at the screen while you post B.S. about it at the mmorpg.com forums.
    And you sprung my trap, congratulations.
    You can ask veteran posters here, I'm one of the defenders of WoW and also a first time player of that game, who was in beta and started on day one in November 2004. I have two WoW accounts still running today as we speak.

    So what's your point? I mean, some valid point, past using assumptions about me and WoW to try to invalidate my also positive opinion about ESO, of course.

    I'm not trying to invalidate anything.  There are no point in invalidating opinions.  They're opinions.  Some of them are just trash, and aren't worth wasting the energy trying to tactfully take them down.  Not sure what you mean by your "trap."  It sounds almost like you're only here to troll.
    Nope, not trolling, but as I typed the post I was answering to, I was suddenly pretty sure someone would attack me on WoW without understanding that I actually love the game.
    My point was: "If ESO is boring, then WoW is a snorefest".
    If you understand what I said, I nowhere said WoW is a snorefest, but only "if... then". I was talking about the linearity of the world, by the way.
    WoW is still an excellent game, but ESO, to me, a 13 years long WoW fan, it has a way more interesting world nowadays. WoW had a fantastic world until Cataclysm, then it became utterly linear with little to no room for exploration. And that, sadly, is NOT an opinion, but an undeniable fact. You are handheld from quest hub to quest hub.
    YashaXPhry
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997

    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Gorwe said:
    Does this game actually get interesting? Sure, the audiovisuals are breathtaking and the world building's amazing. Even the little stories are fun and interesting. BUT! The combat S.U.C.K.S. Really, it's one of the worst combat systems I ever saw. No impact, very spammy(this comes from someone who likes the likes of Arsenal Mercenary in SWTOR!), next to no sense of progression(yeah, thanks One Tamriel! I thought that we graduated this issue with Oblivion...guess not), too open zones...

    This is almost painful to play. Sure, visiting Hammerfell or Elsweyr or the like is always awesome, but...THAT COMBAT!

    Must say... I didn't think I would ever see someone complaining about zones being "too open".

    When I see people overstating the level scaling, or insisting there is no progression, I wonder if they've actually really played the game at all. At best, I imagine they saw it has "level scaling", remember that Oblivion had level scaling, and assume it's exactly the same. It's not. It's not traditional level progression, but there is definitely progression there.

    A world boss that one-shotted me at level 24 has a much harder time of it now that I'm into my CP levels and have better gear and skills, etc.

    If I'm wrong, please post footage of someone on a new character somewhere like Bloodroot Forge, or hell, even Cradle of Shadows, or White Gold Tower, and reliably performing on par with more advanced and developed characters. Post their parse results.

    As for the combat... To each their own, I guess. I rather enjoy it.

    It's more about the lack of direction than how open it is. I have nothing against big worlds provided you are guided through them. Now, the modern open world sandbox like design? /pass
    I have a friend who just doesn't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    There's nothing great about being utterly confused because the game gives you very little direction.  I did notice this with Oblivion (though it was a bit better than Skyrim, from what I heard).  I did buy Skyrim on release for the XB360, but actually returned it before I even opened the packaging because of my experience with Oblivion (which I played for about 30 minutes and then went back to other RPGs like Dragon Age, etc. for the same reasons as your friend).

    It's Skyrim, not a Rubik's cube.

    Also, great is very subjective, but it seems like every game's fanbase picks a few of its attributes, attributes it to greatness, and then pushes it aggressively as if it were some objective fact.

    What's great to you may be trash to many other people.

    If the game was so great, they would be raking in cash with millions paying them a subscription to play it.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997
    Also, the criticism that this game is boring is as old as the game itself.  Several reputable reviews have called this game out for being a borefest, and thousands of users have stated the same.

    I understand that people are desperate for a WoW killer (or at least, comparable alternative), but try not to overstate things.
    YashaX
  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Yeh, if you think ESO questing is boring then you need to change genre cos ESO's questing is bad but it's still one of the best in MMOs due to the presentation and context. Secret World, SWTOR and possibly WoW and Neverwinter are the other good ones. Modern WoW I mean.. since it throws in lots of mini games and stuff. SWTOR for the same reasons as ESO; presentation, voice work, etc. WIldstar is kind of fast paced with mini games too.
    Not even remotely close to one of the best MMOs.
    Where did I say it was one of the best MMOs? I said the questing was..
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Darksworm said:
    Also, the criticism that this game is boring is as old as the game itself.  Several reputable reviews have called this game out for being a borefest, and thousands of users have stated the same.

    I understand that people are desperate for a WoW killer (or at least, comparable alternative), but try not to overstate things.
    'called this game out'

    seriously? 'called this game out'

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,659
    edited November 2017
    Darksworm said:

    I have a friend who just doesn't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    There's nothing great about being utterly confused because the game gives you very little direction.

    Also, great is very subjective, but it seems like every game's fanbase picks a few of its attributes, attributes it to greatness, and then pushes it aggressively as if it were some objective fact.

    What's great to you may be trash to many other people.


    Actually that is the fun. Some people like being lost in a dangerous (gaming) space. One of the reasons I loved the original old forest in Lord of the Rings online.

    I don't want direction. At all. I want to discover. Which brings us to your other sentence ...

    Of course it's subjective. That's why I used the example of my friend. He hates "no direction". He wants direction.

    I don't want direction. Yeah, subjective. People aren't "pushing it as an objective fact" they are "pushing it as a subjective delight". Reveling in what makes it great for them.

    As for Oblivion I played it for over 2 years. You played it for 30 minutes so that's a testament to how subjective these features can be.

    I suppose your last sentence in your original post pertains not to skyrim but to Elder Scrolls Online.
    QuarterStack



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Sovrath said:
    Darksworm said:

    I have a friend who just doesn't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    There's nothing great about being utterly confused because the game gives you very little direction.

    Also, great is very subjective, but it seems like every game's fanbase picks a few of its attributes, attributes it to greatness, and then pushes it aggressively as if it were some objective fact.

    What's great to you may be trash to many other people.


    Actually that is the fun. Some people like being lost in a dangerous (gaming) space. One of the reasons I loved the original old forest in Lord of the Rings online.

    I don't want direction. At all. I want to discover. Which brings us to your other sentence ...

    Of course it's subjective. That's why I used the example of my friend. He hates "no direction". He wants direction.

    I don't want direction. Yeah, subjective. People aren't "pushing it as an objective fact" they are "pushing it as a subjective delight". Reveling in what makes it great for them.

    As for Oblivion I played it for over 2 years. You played it for 30 minutes so that's a testament to how subjective these features can be.

    I suppose your last sentence in your original post pertains not to skyrim but to Elder Scrolls Online.
    what if I said its not all as subjective as many people think. I am not saying its not subjective at all, however I am saying I have heard some very convincing points about game design.

    However what makes part of even the 'non-subjective' part appear to be subjective is that people have different parameters of 'comfortable variables' (my phrase) so to speak.

    so the idea is that gaming is about testing/experiementing with results from interaction. However a persons intelligence, world view, age and experience can change the scope of what would be comfortable variables.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,294
    Darksworm said:
    Vutar said:
    During development they systematically nerfed xp in as many ways as they could except for questing.  They wanted to slow people down as much as possible.  Slow leveling and lots of time sinks is what really destroys a game. 



    Heh, no. Slow leveling does not destroy a game. In fact, fast leveling is what is making so many games be 1 month wonders. Time sinks for the sake of time sinks on the other hand are terrible. 
    Fast leveling is only bad when you have no end-game content - in other words, when your game isn't sufficiently finished, but you're using the leveling process as an artificial time sink so players can pay you while you finish it post-release.

    Said every FPS and MOBA player ever when they think they know how to MMO better than the players who actually prefer MMOs.
    JamesGoblinQuarterStack
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,659
    SEANMCAD said:
    Sovrath said:
    Darksworm said:

    I have a friend who just doesn't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    There's nothing great about being utterly confused because the game gives you very little direction.

    Also, great is very subjective, but it seems like every game's fanbase picks a few of its attributes, attributes it to greatness, and then pushes it aggressively as if it were some objective fact.

    What's great to you may be trash to many other people.


    Actually that is the fun. Some people like being lost in a dangerous (gaming) space. One of the reasons I loved the original old forest in Lord of the Rings online.

    I don't want direction. At all. I want to discover. Which brings us to your other sentence ...

    Of course it's subjective. That's why I used the example of my friend. He hates "no direction". He wants direction.

    I don't want direction. Yeah, subjective. People aren't "pushing it as an objective fact" they are "pushing it as a subjective delight". Reveling in what makes it great for them.

    As for Oblivion I played it for over 2 years. You played it for 30 minutes so that's a testament to how subjective these features can be.

    I suppose your last sentence in your original post pertains not to skyrim but to Elder Scrolls Online.
    what if I said its not all as subjective as many people think. I am not saying its not subjective at all, however I am saying I have heard some very convincing points about game design.

    However what makes part of even the 'non-subjective' part appear to be subjective is that people have different parameters of 'comfortable variables' (my phrase) so to speak.

    so the idea is that gaming is about testing/experiementing with results from interaction. However a persons intelligence, world view, age and experience can change the scope of what would be comfortable variables.

    Possible. game design might help inform how we play but knowing that one person loves open world, no direction, complete mystery and another person wants a crafted storied experience sure speaks to how different people like to play their games.
    IselinYashaXQuarterStack



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Sovrath said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Sovrath said:
    Darksworm said:

    I have a friend who just doesn't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    There's nothing great about being utterly confused because the game gives you very little direction.

    Also, great is very subjective, but it seems like every game's fanbase picks a few of its attributes, attributes it to greatness, and then pushes it aggressively as if it were some objective fact.

    What's great to you may be trash to many other people.


    Actually that is the fun. Some people like being lost in a dangerous (gaming) space. One of the reasons I loved the original old forest in Lord of the Rings online.

    I don't want direction. At all. I want to discover. Which brings us to your other sentence ...

    Of course it's subjective. That's why I used the example of my friend. He hates "no direction". He wants direction.

    I don't want direction. Yeah, subjective. People aren't "pushing it as an objective fact" they are "pushing it as a subjective delight". Reveling in what makes it great for them.

    As for Oblivion I played it for over 2 years. You played it for 30 minutes so that's a testament to how subjective these features can be.

    I suppose your last sentence in your original post pertains not to skyrim but to Elder Scrolls Online.
    what if I said its not all as subjective as many people think. I am not saying its not subjective at all, however I am saying I have heard some very convincing points about game design.

    However what makes part of even the 'non-subjective' part appear to be subjective is that people have different parameters of 'comfortable variables' (my phrase) so to speak.

    so the idea is that gaming is about testing/experiementing with results from interaction. However a persons intelligence, world view, age and experience can change the scope of what would be comfortable variables.

    Possible. game design might help inform how we play but knowing that one person loves open world, no direction, complete mystery and another person wants a crafted storied experience sure speaks to how different people like to play their games.
    for the most part that is true. That said, its not quite what I am saying and knowedge of what I am saying one can build a predictable game model depending on your target demographic. 

    But I will try and refrain from getting into details given my first attempt was missed at being understood.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    Sovrath said:


    Actually that is the fun. Some people like being lost in a dangerous (gaming) space. One of the reasons I loved the original old forest in Lord of the Rings online.

    I don't want direction. At all. I want to discover. Which brings us to your other sentence ...


    Me in a nutshell.

    I love feeling lost and "small" in a fantasy world. Give me the means to find my way somewhere if I choose... but otherwise, let me explore on my own.
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    edited November 2017
    Darksworm said:
    Darksworm said:

    There is nothing unfun about WoW, to the average MMORPG gamer.  That's probably why it's still one of the few games able to sustain itself on a subscription model.  There is a lot of things you can criticize WoW for - being a "snorefest" is definitely not one of them, unless you spend your time in town looking at the screen while you post B.S. about it at the mmorpg.com forums.
    And you sprung my trap, congratulations.
    You can ask veteran posters here, I'm one of the defenders of WoW and also a first time player of that game, who was in beta and started on day one in November 2004. I have two WoW accounts still running today as we speak.

    So what's your point? I mean, some valid point, past using assumptions about me and WoW to try to invalidate my also positive opinion about ESO, of course.

    I'm not trying to invalidate anything.  There are no point in invalidating opinions.  They're opinions.  Some of them are just trash, and aren't worth wasting the energy trying to tactfully take them down.  Not sure what you mean by your "trap."  It sounds almost like you're only here to troll.
    Nope, not trolling, but as I typed the post I was answering to, I was suddenly pretty sure someone would attack me on WoW without understanding that I actually love the game.
    My point was: "If ESO is boring, then WoW is a snorefest".
    If you understand what I said, I nowhere said WoW is a snorefest, but only "if... then". I was talking about the linearity of the world, by the way.
    WoW is still an excellent game, but ESO, to me, a 13 years long WoW fan, it has a way more interesting world nowadays. WoW had a fantastic world until Cataclysm, then it became utterly linear with little to no room for exploration. And that, sadly, is NOT an opinion, but an undeniable fact. You are handheld from quest hub to quest hub.

    Wow Jean Luc. That If -> Then really doesn't work. Because it doesn't take long to find people who think ESO is the worst thing ever, yet are very entertained by WoW.

    Me as well. I don't think it's the worst(it's simply commonly mismanaged and resultantly quite annoying), but I also am fairly amused by WoW-likes when they don't put too much into leveling(make it good but also not too long or it gets annoying). Hell, I like plenty of old schools: SWTOR, LoTR:O, AoC, WAR, even WoW itself's good when it's not on Thrallpath(and with modern accessories: fast leveling, heirlooms etc). Still can't stand overall lack of seriousness and, ESPECIALLY this, ultra silly graphics.

    ESO just sucks to me. I'd rather watch Supper at Emaus or de Nachtwacht than play ESO tbh. Equally beautiful, but the former pair's more fulfilling.

    edit: I also LOVED the post Cata linear Azeroth. <3
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    edited November 2017
    SEANMCAD said:
    Sovrath said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Sovrath said:
    Darksworm said:

    I have a friend who just doesn't like games like Skyrim.

    he told me that he bought the game, installed it. Played it after the opening for about 15 minutes and deleted it. He also couldn't stand the no guides and open nature.

    For me that's the whole point and what makes a game good game "great".
    There's nothing great about being utterly confused because the game gives you very little direction.

    Also, great is very subjective, but it seems like every game's fanbase picks a few of its attributes, attributes it to greatness, and then pushes it aggressively as if it were some objective fact.

    What's great to you may be trash to many other people.


    Actually that is the fun. Some people like being lost in a dangerous (gaming) space. One of the reasons I loved the original old forest in Lord of the Rings online.

    I don't want direction. At all. I want to discover. Which brings us to your other sentence ...

    Of course it's subjective. That's why I used the example of my friend. He hates "no direction". He wants direction.

    I don't want direction. Yeah, subjective. People aren't "pushing it as an objective fact" they are "pushing it as a subjective delight". Reveling in what makes it great for them.

    As for Oblivion I played it for over 2 years. You played it for 30 minutes so that's a testament to how subjective these features can be.

    I suppose your last sentence in your original post pertains not to skyrim but to Elder Scrolls Online.
    what if I said its not all as subjective as many people think. I am not saying its not subjective at all, however I am saying I have heard some very convincing points about game design.

    However what makes part of even the 'non-subjective' part appear to be subjective is that people have different parameters of 'comfortable variables' (my phrase) so to speak.

    so the idea is that gaming is about testing/experiementing with results from interaction. However a persons intelligence, world view, age and experience can change the scope of what would be comfortable variables.

    Possible. game design might help inform how we play but knowing that one person loves open world, no direction, complete mystery and another person wants a crafted storied experience sure speaks to how different people like to play their games.
    for the most part that is true. That said, its not quite what I am saying and knowedge of what I am saying one can build a predictable game model depending on your target demographic. 

    But I will try and refrain from getting into details given my first attempt was missed at being understood.


    Nick Yee and co already did that. Factor in Czikszentmihalyi's theory of Flow and some other bitz n gubbinz about Relatedness and Open Mindedness and you've a PERFECT(as much as it can be) Game Design + Psychology thingie. Can be very valuable both for Devs(to know their true audience) and for gamers(to find truly fulfilling game) alike.

    Take me for example. Give me something obvious to "explore"(aka find my way to it) and I WILL. Ask me to wander around and I'll uninstall the game. Because I have like zero interest in Discovery elements. Ok, maybe not zero, but between zero and twenty percent to be sure.

    edit: Case in point:

    LOVE Dragon Age Origins, SWTOR, Shadowrun, Dark Souls etc.
    HATE Skyrim, Minecraft, GTA, ESO etc.
  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,217
    I think the combat and character building are pretty good.  The itemization, endless questing and lack of risk vs reward are the reasons so many find it to be boring.  
    Gorwe
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    Gorwe said:


    edit: I also LOVED the post Cata linear Azeroth. <3
    That's what people already told you: you like MMOs designed more as games, you like being handheld and not having to think or explore too much. Nothing wrong with that, people play the games they enjoy, since its leisure activities.

    Just accept the game isn't for you, and won't change just for you, and move on. That's what I do when I don't like a game (anymore or at all), I don't play it and I leave it alone, including its forum. Life is too short to play games one doesn't enjoy, we are already forced to do things we don't enjoy everyday for work.

    Move on, go have fun somewhere. WoW is still up and running, new expansion soon.
    Phry
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    Mardukk said:
    I think the combat and character building are pretty good.  The itemization, endless questing and lack of risk vs reward are the reasons so many find it to be boring.  

    I don't even have anything about good quests(think about zone quests in ESO, 1-50 in SWTOR, Main Story in LoTR:O, practically everything in TSW...), but endless, meaningless quests? Yeah, those SUCK!

    I'd say that beyond the lack of direction, the itemization(gah horrible!) and endless questing are the main culprits of me creating this topic. Itemization is beyond bad(you don't even get armor as part of starter island quests, you rely on RNG world drops etc...wtf is this? 2001?) and serves almost no purpose beyond "there MUST be vertical progression".

    I don't even have that much against open world when it has some purpose behind it. But often it does not. Often it's just the same repeated content, just in different gfx in different locations. And often it's level gated, so what's the point? And often you are not given the tools to explore. And when you are, the whole thing's too easy. Catch 22.

    As for difficulty, there is difficulty in ES:O. You just have to find it and not abuse build system(put 2 healing skills or something). But the average difficulty is disappointing, true. Almost everything sub 20 is either spam or very, very bland rock -> paper -> scissors. But, again, this is mostly brought on by One Tamriel and overall appallingly bad combat system.

    Combat system practically doesn't know what it wants to be! Something modern, something classic...the only thing it does know is that it hates "Tab Target". Meh, fine with me :D
    IselinYashaX
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.
    YashaX
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,294
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.
    I wish I were so good that I could just try a game, never use the tab key and then declare that there is no tab targeting. That takes being a game connoisseur to a different level that's just beyond me :)
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,387
    It's more likely that the combat system is so different from the usual EQ/WoW clone combat that you didn't understand it fully and therefore find it bad.
    If it's just not for you... don't insist.

    It's not that. Even when compared to non MMO games that are played similarly, it feels odd. Remember, I liked GW 1. And the likes of combat of TERA etc are actually quite awesome. And I actually do not like tab target. I like third person reticule targeting much more.

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,076
    Gorwe said:

    But ESO has an identity crisis. It has it in general, trust me, but it's most visible in combat aspect.
    I hope you wont be offended if I don't trust you in that specific matter ;)
    I rather trust myself since I play this game daily.
    Gorwe
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti G1 Gaming - RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX Savage DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Philips 40PUK6809 4K 3D TV - Second display: Philips 273v 27" gaming monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset and Razer Hydra controllers - Soundcard: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.

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