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CoE announces plan to commoditize and sell many perks individually, gets hit in face with backlash.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    Redemp said:
    This is why I don't crowd fund mmo's  even those I'm highly hyped for .... CoE from the get go has looked suspect; Caveat emptor.

    Of course.  IMHO it's a horrible shame they way companies like this have perverted the idea of Kickstarter. I mean, they are even now about to start selling tokens for $10 that you give to someone to "vote" for them to become one of the Kings. Always finding new ways to sell advantages...

    PS- Jeremy... many of the quotes in the OP were from people who pledged hundreds or thousands of dollars to your game.  Yeah your highly moderated forum resulted in a +16... should we slowly golfclap? When people who have given you hundreds or thousands of dollars for your game are complaining publically (ignoring both of your paywall locked high roller forums where IMHO you try to keep dissent from public eyes) feel free to pat yourself on the back all you want.  

    Keep adding monetization features. Keep announcing DLC for your unreleased game.  Keep renaming features like the mud.  Keep missing deadlines and blaming your supporters for making you spend time explaining things to them.  

    The problem isn't the MMORPG forums. 

    The problem is that your game was supposed to be in 3 month no wipe Headstart now and full release by the end of the year.  Instead you have released nothing excepts more and more monetization items.  Maybe by January (per your post) people will have a client to move their minecraft figures around.  If... instead of blaming everyone else... you actually did what you said and had launched your game's Exposition by now.. there wouldn't be a need to blame anyone.  But since you're  now saying you will be 2 years late.  That's on you.   Suck it up, stop deflecting, do what you promise and guess what.  All the complaints go away.


    KyleranDrun_RedforgeYashaXGdemamiMrMelGibson

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Well Jeremy might be correct and might not be,he is obviously speaking from a BIASED side of things.
    Here is my point,NOBODY is trying to belittle the hard work,i THINK what people are saying is that YOU as the owner is degrading his own hard work by demoralizing the game with cash shops.

    Everything you do is ruined and ONLY the negative side will show and to be honest,you deserve backlash for not being a more honest developer instead of trying to grind money from those willing to be exploited.
    I could never do this sort of thing,take money from naive people to build a video game and then to try and create ways to make more and more from those same people is just exploitation.

    What i said the very first time i ever heard of crowd funding Kickstarters was for the ideas to be legit,you should be selling shares in the business and i mean legit shares not these ones i see some doing that are meaningless shares.Instead developers have al jumped on this bandwagon to exploit naive people,this is not the way real life works,you want people to invest,they should get something FAIR for it.
    ZerbeFalendor

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TokkenTokken Member EpicPosts: 3,150
    Hey All,

    I don't tend to frequent MMORPG.com as much any more, but I saw this post and I was again disgusted to see people still trying to tear down the hard work my team does, the progress we've made, and the close connection we have with our community.

    The entire premise of this post is misleading, which was clearly the intention from the beginning.

    The title of this topic is: "CoE announces plan to commoditize and sell many perks individually, gets hit in face with backlash"

    However, there has been no backlash. We were asked to make the change. Have there been a few people who complained on our forum about the change? Of course. And I believe the OP quoted every one of them.

    What they intentionally didn't quote are the following:

    "Great update, Vye. Now's the time to fill your boots, people :)"

    ""Finally a Surname :)"

    "God bless Vie. Lol about time"


    "
    That's super exciting! I can't wait to see what the prices are for some of the a la carte items!"

    In short, the post in question is 6 pages long, and there's a mix of both extremely happy people, and some unhappy. But, you'll notice that the topic itself has a post score of +16. Meaning, at the very least 16 more people felt the need to upvote than downvote.

    A couple days later we posted the prices for the a la carte, which has received +41 upvotes.

    "Beautiful update thank you for giving us what we asked! The thing about donating to the International Association for Suicide Prevention is a wonderful idea. Thank you Soulbound"

    "Awsome! Thank you.Caspian!"

    ""For every purchase of the "Headstone Name & Message" a la carte item, Soulbound Studios will donate $25 (50%) to the International Association for Suicide Prevention."

    Amazing! Never expected you guys to do this, just incredible."

    In short, we made the change because a ton of people asked to provide those things a la carte in a way that meant people who purchased the packages got a huge discount, while others who didn't want to spend so much still got what they wanted.

    All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January.

    In case you're not actively following our development, here's the latest developer journal:

    Check out all These Character Skins

    And if you want to see the video that accompanies many of the screenshots in that post, check out our latest production video:

    Pre-Alpha Progress Update

    In closing, don't believe everything you read on these forums. We've got 1,500 members in our Discord channel, actively engaging with us on a daily basis. So you can either read the trashy forum posts here, or you can come into our Discord or join our forums and talk directly to us.

    We really aren't like everyone else. No matter what the MMORPG.com forums lead you to believe.


    Thank you for sharing!  My guild is really looking forward to the game.  We like how it is progressing.
    ZerbeDrun_RedforgeThomas2006KyleranSlapshot1188StaalBurgherTekkonmystichaze

    Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004!  Make PvE GREAT Again!

  • ZerbeZerbe Member UncommonPosts: 3
    Of course.  IMHO it's a horrible shame they way companies like this have perverted the idea of Kickstarter. I mean, they are even now about to start selling tokens for $10 that you give to someone to "vote" for them to become one of the Kings. Always finding new ways to sell advantages.

    PS- Jeremy... many of the quotes in the OP were from people who pledged hundreds or thousands of dollars to your game.  Yeah your highly moderated forum resulted in a +16... should we slowly golfclap? When people who have given you hundreds or thousands of dollars for your game are complaining publically (ignoring both of your paywall locked high roller forums where IMHO you try to keep dissent from public eyes) feel free to pat yourself on the back all you want.  

    Keep adding monetization features. Keep announcing DLC for your unreleased game.  Keep renaming features like the mud.  Keep missing deadlines and blaming your supporters for making you spend time explaining things to them.  

    The problem isn't the MMORPG forums. 

    The problem is that your game was supposed to be in 3 month no wipe Headstart now and full release by the end of the year.  Instead you have released nothing excepts more and more monetization items.  Maybe by January (per your post) people will have a client to move their minecraft figures around.  If... instead of blaming everyone else... you actually did what you said and had launched your game's Exposition by now.. there wouldn't be a need to blame anyone.  But since you're  now saying you will be 2 years late.  That's on you.   Suck it up, stop deflecting, do what you promise and guess what.  All the complaints go away.


    First off I think this Slapshot guy is one of the most biased uneducated people I have ever encountered, even more than American Media Sources. Let me break his post down here.

    $10 Tokens to vote for a king, well he fails to mention that the purchaser also gets 100EP to spend in exposition. He is correct currently there is an event where the community can vote for players to become a King on the NA-E server. He also did not define or give reference to the said post. Here is a link https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/22176/the-free-kingdom-of-elyria?page=3#31. But I will still break it down here for everyone too lazy to go check it out. 1st Place a modified Monarch package, 2nd-7th place receive a modified Duchy title, and 8th-151st place gets a modified Count package. What does modified mean "Modified packages do not contain Design Experiences and all counties and duchies awarded are restricted to being inside the 'Free Kingdom' of Luna (NA-E) during settlement/domain selection."

    Highly moderated Forum, first off I am better Slapshot has been banned from the forums and has read only privileges and he is frustrated by that. The moderation is all normal stuff, swearing, racial slurs, off topic posts. Maybe he means highly moderated because moderates are active in the forum. Oh no! There is an active community and the devs and mods are involved what will we ever do.

    Private forum for early backers and royal pledges, yep that is a thing it is a small focus group for the devs to bounce ideas off of during the making of the game. Also IMHO Slap there is nothing honest about your entirely biased posts.

    Adding Monitization features, I assume here he means the Al a Carte store, it wasalluded to a while ago in a Q&A, it didn't seem to bother anyone then...

    Announcing DLC. This I have no idea what he is talking about, maybe the fact that players will have a change to purchase a mini engine during the Alpha & Beta period to see how it works in smaller instances, not required and actually not part of the game.

    Renaming Features, yep they did that. There is no longer a mud it is a voxel based testing program for players to test features before the graphics for unreal 4 are finished. Again your extreme bias shows it was an improvement therefore an improved name.

    Missing Deadlines, no deadlines have been missed sense the State of Elyria post this July that gave everyone an updated timeline, also missed deadlines are part of any business.

    The problem is not the MMORPG forums, correct! Good job if there is a problem it is you Slapshot spreading for toxic cancer and biased opinion without references. 

    Again at the end here Slapshot keeps referencing their Kickstarter deadlines that have been done away with due to the additional stretch goals, and yes some delays but now they are back on track and have a larger team. Again I will iterate all business have delays on projects no matter the size.

    Want a good read on the updated schedule of the game?
    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/21106/State-of-Elyria-July-2017

    Interested in their newest video showing off their work in Pre Alpha?


    Interested in getting involved with the growing community?
    https://discord.gg/JqSUuDY
    Asm0deusThomas2006YashaXSlapshot1188Gdemamimystichaze
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    edited October 2017
    Wow... who ever could have predicted an influx right after Jeremy posted (and linked to this thread in the CoE Discord)

    Some things are just so obvious... draw your own conclusions.
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    Asm0deusYashaXJamesGoblinGdemamicraftseeker

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • ZerbeZerbe Member UncommonPosts: 3
    Hey All,

    I don't tend to frequent MMORPG.com as much any more, but I saw this post and I was again disgusted to see people still trying to tear down the hard work my team does, the progress we've made, and the close connection we have with our community.

    The entire premise of this post is misleading, which was clearly the intention from the beginning.

    The title of this topic is: "CoE announces plan to commoditize and sell many perks individually, gets hit in face with backlash"

    However, there has been no backlash. We were asked to make the change. Have there been a few people who complained on our forum about the change? Of course. And I believe the OP quoted every one of them.

    What they intentionally didn't quote are the following:

    "Great update, Vye. Now's the time to fill your boots, people :)"

    ""Finally a Surname :)"

    "God bless Vie. Lol about time"


    "
    That's super exciting! I can't wait to see what the prices are for some of the a la carte items!"

    In short, the post in question is 6 pages long, and there's a mix of both extremely happy people, and some unhappy. But, you'll notice that the topic itself has a post score of +16. Meaning, at the very least 16 more people felt the need to upvote than downvote.

    A couple days later we posted the prices for the a la carte, which has received +41 upvotes.

    "Beautiful update thank you for giving us what we asked! The thing about donating to the International Association for Suicide Prevention is a wonderful idea. Thank you Soulbound"

    "Awsome! Thank you.Caspian!"

    ""For every purchase of the "Headstone Name & Message" a la carte item, Soulbound Studios will donate $25 (50%) to the International Association for Suicide Prevention."

    Amazing! Never expected you guys to do this, just incredible."

    In short, we made the change because a ton of people asked to provide those things a la carte in a way that meant people who purchased the packages got a huge discount, while others who didn't want to spend so much still got what they wanted.

    All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January.

    In case you're not actively following our development, here's the latest developer journal:

    Check out all These Character Skins

    And if you want to see the video that accompanies many of the screenshots in that post, check out our latest production video:

    Pre-Alpha Progress Update

    In closing, don't believe everything you read on these forums. We've got 1,500 members in our Discord channel, actively engaging with us on a daily basis. So you can either read the trashy forum posts here, or you can come into our Discord or join our forums and talk directly to us.

    We really aren't like everyone else. No matter what the MMORPG.com forums lead you to believe.


    Also look at this the Developer took time to come to this forum and talk to you about his game, I have never heard of any AAA devs or Indy devs doing that. Caspian is right discord is the place to be so come join us. https://discord.gg/JqSUuDY
    Any questions just find me on Discord and ill do my best to answer.
    Asm0deusThomas2006YashaXKyleranSlapshot1188Iselin
  • JeromyWalshJeromyWalsh Soulbound StudiosMember UncommonPosts: 134
    PS- Jeremy... Yeah your highly moderated forum resulted in a +16... should we slowly golfclap? When people who have given you hundreds or thousands of dollars for your game are complaining publically (ignoring both of your paywall locked high roller forums where IMHO you try to keep dissent from public eyes) feel free to pat yourself on the back all you want.  
    Hi Slapshot. I didn't come here to debate with you. I came to provide the other side of the story, which you seem to consistently neglect in order to enrage the masses. Then I'll be on my way.

    To your points - we haven't moderated the forum results. Accusing us of doing so is beneath even you. The votes are what they are. 

    When people who have given you hundreds or thousands of dollars for your game are complaining publically (ignoring both of your paywall locked high roller forums where IMHO you try to keep dissent from public eyes) feel free to pat yourself on the back all you want.  
    We do have a couple people who have backed us for hundreds, or even thousands of dollars who initially expressed their concern or displeasure - and rightly so. Without seeing the numbers the a la carte items were going to sell for it could easily feel as though their packages had less value.

    However, after we showed them they received a 50% discount on the value of them items - most were happy. Not all - but most. So you take something which has been asked for by hundreds, if not thousands of individuals, and you compare it against the 10-15 people who were unhappy about it, and you start to see a different picture.

    We can't make everyone happy all the time, and it's unreasonable to expect us to do so. We do the best we can. 

    In response to our "pay wall", we do have two forums that we grant access to as a result of a) pledge package reward and b) 10k influence. Note that it's possible for someone to gain access to both forums without having to spend any money. So it's not a pay wall, but it is a wall for the more influential members.

    We do that because it adds value to those backers who backed us at high levels, or who have earned more influence, to have more exclusive access. As to our keeping dissent from public eyes - let's not kid ourselves. We both know that you have access to at least one of the forums, if not both - so you know full well there's been no dissent in those forums about the issue. In fact, the a la carte store hasn't been mentioned in either.

    But, we do share screenshots, discuss our plans, and use the Early Access and Exclusive Access forums as a way to share content and get feedback from our players in a smaller cohort.
    The problem is that your game was supposed to be in 3 month no wipe Headstart now and full release by the end of the year.  Instead you have released nothing excepts more and more monetization items.  Maybe by January (per your post) people will have a client to move their minecraft figures around.  If... instead of blaming everyone else... you actually did what you said and had launched your game's Exposition by now.. there wouldn't be a need to blame anyone.  But since you're  now saying you will be 2 years late.  That's on you.   Suck it up, stop deflecting, do what you promise and guess what.  All the complaints go away.
    We know where we estimated we'd be by now - 18 months ago. And we know why we're not. However that's not the reason you're here posting still. You've been posting negative feedback since right after our Kickstarter - over a year ago. And whenever we make a solid argument, you default to the "But you're behind," argument. If it wasn't that, you'd find something else to fall back on.

    Listen, for the people reading this, we explained why we slipped. We're not hiding it. But we let people know as early as we could, communicated when we expected to ship now, we provided an updated timeline, and even a list of features we are going to be working on and when.

    We also developed a new communication protocol where we first tell the community what we WILL be working on, then provide developer journals AS we're working on them, and then provide videos AFTER we complete them that shows how they turned out.

    So you can either be sour that we missed our estimate, or you can accept that it was an estimate, it was wrong, and we're now even more transparent with the community as result.

    And see, it's even the little jab at our VoxElyria client that's telling. I suspect you and I both know why we're doing it. It's what we've said we were going to do from the beginning - just made more approachable and enjoyable for our players.

    The VoxElyria client allows us to iterate on features quicker, without having to worry about models, animations, materials, etc. It also allows us to get players in the game sooner. All of those are fantastic things and are better for the players. You know that. I know that. But it's more interesting to poke fun at our voxel-based figures.
    Keep renaming features like the mud.  Keep missing deadlines and blaming your supporters for making you spend time explaining things to them.  
    We renamed the MUD to VoxElyria when we started using voxels - and because it no longer resembled the MUD we were planning initially. Renaming was a logical thing to do, and is neither a pro or con. Don't make it out to be either.

    You can keep going back to the missed estimate if you want. But no matter how many times you point out we missed our estimate, it doesn't change the fact that we're extremely transparent with our community, are doing things the right way, and continue to show support and love for our players. We also don't blame our supporters for making us spend time explaining things to them. We really do enjoy the time we spend with our community. Feel free to stop by and ask them.

    Chronicles of Elyria Official Discord
    Asm0deusKyleranTokkenJamesGoblinTekkonmystichazeWellspring
    Jeromy Walsh, 
    Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
    ChroniclesOfElyria.com
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Zerbe said:
    Hey All,

    I don't tend to frequent MMORPG.com as much any more, but I saw this post and I was again disgusted to see people still trying to tear down the hard work my team does, the progress we've made, and the close connection we have with our community.

    The entire premise of this post is misleading, which was clearly the intention from the beginning.

    The title of this topic is: "CoE announces plan to commoditize and sell many perks individually, gets hit in face with backlash"

    However, there has been no backlash. We were asked to make the change. Have there been a few people who complained on our forum about the change? Of course. And I believe the OP quoted every one of them.

    What they intentionally didn't quote are the following:

    "Great update, Vye. Now's the time to fill your boots, people :)"

    ""Finally a Surname :)"

    "God bless Vie. Lol about time"


    "
    That's super exciting! I can't wait to see what the prices are for some of the a la carte items!"

    In short, the post in question is 6 pages long, and there's a mix of both extremely happy people, and some unhappy. But, you'll notice that the topic itself has a post score of +16. Meaning, at the very least 16 more people felt the need to upvote than downvote.

    A couple days later we posted the prices for the a la carte, which has received +41 upvotes.

    "Beautiful update thank you for giving us what we asked! The thing about donating to the International Association for Suicide Prevention is a wonderful idea. Thank you Soulbound"

    "Awsome! Thank you.Caspian!"

    ""For every purchase of the "Headstone Name & Message" a la carte item, Soulbound Studios will donate $25 (50%) to the International Association for Suicide Prevention."

    Amazing! Never expected you guys to do this, just incredible."

    In short, we made the change because a ton of people asked to provide those things a la carte in a way that meant people who purchased the packages got a huge discount, while others who didn't want to spend so much still got what they wanted.

    All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January.

    In case you're not actively following our development, here's the latest developer journal:

    Check out all These Character Skins

    And if you want to see the video that accompanies many of the screenshots in that post, check out our latest production video:

    Pre-Alpha Progress Update

    In closing, don't believe everything you read on these forums. We've got 1,500 members in our Discord channel, actively engaging with us on a daily basis. So you can either read the trashy forum posts here, or you can come into our Discord or join our forums and talk directly to us.

    We really aren't like everyone else. No matter what the MMORPG.com forums lead you to believe.


    Also look at this the Developer took time to come to this forum and talk to you about his game, I have never heard of any AAA devs or Indy devs doing that. Caspian is right discord is the place to be so come join us. https://discord.gg/JqSUuDY
    Any questions just find me on Discord and ill do my best to answer.
    In the interest of accuracy, Mark Jacobs comes here regularly to discuss CU with us.  The good, the bad, and the ugly.  Kilsin from VR has also been spotted around here more than once, if I'm not mistaken.
    ZerbeJamesGoblincraftseeker

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    YashaX said:
    Are these items bought through the IP store? If so, I don't see what has changed. Wasn't the IP store always intended to populate the world during the exposition, and then the cash shop would go away forever?
    No they are bought for straight cash.  Just like the $10 village tokens and Guild token you can buy to give your settlement and/or guild an advantage in game.

    Guild Token:  When you give a token, you are contributing to the organization of the person you give it to.

    The more tokens your leader receives, the greater the organization becomes. Each token increases research points or resources, depending on the organization type. At certain thresholds, tokens will create special Organization Upgrades that your Leader can use to create guild halls, get additional resources, and more!

    That is one of the most extraordinary things I have read on these forums, the gall of these crowdfunding projects continues to surprise.
    Not surprising at all really.  It was obvious from the beginning they would need to raise a crapload more money than the Kickstarter raised.  As long as people keep giving them money for things like $10 villager tokens or $10 tokens to give to your friend to vote for him as King... they will keep selling them.

    The only game that really has surprised me so far is Saga of Lucimia.  I'm still skeptical as hell that they will deliver a really functional MMORPG, but they have so far done it the way I think Crowdfunding was meant to be.  They have day jobs to pay the bills and don't use the funds to pay themselves.


    Drun_RedforgeGdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited October 2017
    YashaX said:
    Are these items bought through the IP store? If so, I don't see what has changed. Wasn't the IP store always intended to populate the world during the exposition, and then the cash shop would go away forever?
    No they are bought for straight cash.  Just like the $10 village tokens and Guild token you can buy to give your settlement and/or guild an advantage in game.

    Guild Token:  When you give a token, you are contributing to the organization of the person you give it to.

    The more tokens your leader receives, the greater the organization becomes. Each token increases research points or resources, depending on the organization type. At certain thresholds, tokens will create special Organization Upgrades that your Leader can use to create guild halls, get additional resources, and more!

    That is one of the most extraordinary things I have read on these forums, the gall of these crowdfunding projects continues to surprise.
    Not surprising at all really.  It was obvious from the beginning they would need to raise a crapload more money than the Kickstarter raised.  As long as people keep giving them money for things like $10 villager tokens or $10 tokens to give to your friend to vote for him as King... they will keep selling them.

    The only game that really has surprised me so far is Saga of Lucimia.  I'm still skeptical as hell that they will deliver a really functional MMORPG, but they have so far done it the way I think Crowdfunding was meant to be.  They have day jobs to pay the bills and don't use the funds to pay themselves.


    Speaking to your point: http://store.steampowered.com/app/367270/Angels_Fall_First/

    The idea that a Dev team needs to resort to such shady monetization tactics to develop an innovative title is a complete and utter myth.

    Take a gander at the gameplay videos for that title. Namely, the second one.  The title was developed into what you see in that video by a small team with no budget in their spare time.

    I'm not saying that indie devs should build titles for free, but it's quite obvious that there's a passion to that project that takes point over a creative focus on how to rake in more money from backers, and it shows pretty clearly.

    I can't even imagine the kind of game that team could create had they the funds of a gang like CIG to pour into the project and focus full-time on it.
    Drun_RedforgeGdemami

    image
  • Drun_RedforgeDrun_Redforge Member CommonPosts: 2
    edited October 2017
    The only game that really has surprised me so far is Saga of Lucimia.  I'm still skeptical as hell that they will deliver a really functional MMORPG, but they have so far done it the way I think Crowdfunding was meant to be.  They have day jobs to pay the bills and don't use the funds to pay themselves.


    So let me get this straight.. You want someone who is making a game to be distracted with a second job? Money used to live on by developers is a cost of making a game. Crowdfunding people who wont dedicate their work solely to a game means they are reaping extra money for no reason. No developers from any major company have other jobs because of your whack idea "the money they receive for making the game shouldn't pay their bills". What kind of logic is that?

    Also, if you'd like to talk about that other game you posted you might want to step back. Action bars? Locked targeting for combat? NO PVP EVER?? And they're selling merchandise for the game (shirts, mugs, etc)? There is nothing innovative about what they're doing nor is there any drive for the team to get things done. But I'm not here to bash on them, so leave them out of this.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    Jeremy-  You want to know why you got so much crap from day one?

    Here is why:

    Q:The stated timeline of end of 2017 for FULL RELASE is not a realistic one. Not even close.

    JW:Noted. I'm curious, however, what you're basing that on? Is it based on your development experience? Your insider knowledge into what business deals we've been working on? Have you peeked at our Gantt chart? Maybe you feel like using purchased assets from the Unreal Marketplace won't speed up development? Could it be you know that our choice of programming language for the server will slow down development? Anything? You got anything to substantiate your claim?


    Those are your words.   Everyone saw your arrogance/inexperience when you insisted that delivery in 2017 was going to happen.  Instead of being realistic, you decided to try and belittle your supporters who dared question you.  How are those Gantt charts working for you now?


    Also right above here you make this quote "We also don't blame our supporters for making us spend time explaining things to them" Yet.. it's the number one reason you gave for delaying the game:

    You see, when we first launched our Kickstarter last May and gave our estimates of an 18-month development cycle, we made two invalid assumptions.

    First, we assumed that we'd be able to lock ourselves away and quietly go about development while the community patiently waited. Heh. Nope. We've got an extremely enthusiastic, extremely passionate community that demands nothing but the best player experience possible. We love it, and wouldn't have it any other way! But... keeping engaged with the community, and working to ensure a positive player-experience takes time and resources. Time and resources we didn't account for.


    I could go line by line for you, but honestly what's the point?   Just say what you mean and DELIVER ON WHAT YOU SAY and the criticism goes away.   

    Sure, you can keep blaming Slapshot... or MMORPG.com forums for all your issues... Or you can man-up and start to hit some deadlines, and produce a fully-functional game. Your choice.  

    Asm0deusNildenGdemamiMendelVyntmystichaze

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    The only game that really has surprised me so far is Saga of Lucimia.  I'm still skeptical as hell that they will deliver a really functional MMORPG, but they have so far done it the way I think Crowdfunding was meant to be.  They have day jobs to pay the bills and don't use the funds to pay themselves.


    So let me get this straight.. You want someone who is making a game to be distracted with a second job? Money used to live on by developers is a cost of making a game. Crowdfunding people who wont dedicate their work solely to a game means they are reaping extra money for no reason. No developers from any major company have other jobs because the money they receive for making the game shouldn't pay their bills. What kind of logic is that?

    Also, if you'd like to talk about that other game you posted you might want to step back. Action bars? Locked targeting for combat? NO PVP EVER?? And they're selling merchandise for the game (shirts, mugs, etc)? There is nothing innovative about what they're doing nor is there any drive for the team to get things done. But I'm not here to bash on them, so leave them out of this.
    Welcome to the forums!  ;)

    Asm0deusYashaXKyleranJamesGoblinNilden

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    edited October 2017
    All these threads and discussions are for nothing.
    I am betting this game will never see the light of day.
    OR
    if it ever does, it will be so far in the future and so far deviated from theese original plans it will be some other game that has the name CoE, but not THIS CoE, and it will be totally irrelevant as a game.
    Asm0deusDakeruYashaXGdemamiKyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325

    ...

    I could go line by line for you, but honestly what's the point?   Just say what you mean and DELIVER ON WHAT YOU SAY and the criticism goes away.   

    ...

    I'm going to call bullshit on that one.  You've had a raging hard-on against this game since the Kickstarter.  Even if everything went perfectly from here forward, you'd still be shitting all over it every chance you got, just like you did here; stirring up shit for the sake of stirring up shit.
    Well.. maybe Jeremy can hit his deadlines, deliver what he has promised... and we will find out if you're right!

    And to be clear.. my problem has always been his knack for over-promising with ridiculous timelines (which were later compounded by what I believe are over the top P2W components).

    Asm0deusYashaXJamesGoblinGdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    bohooo I can't get a backpack!! I'm disappoint!! this P2W!!! :,,(

    Grow up kid.
    And another one joins the fray.  Pretty much like clockwork...



    Kyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • OnixeOnixe Member CommonPosts: 3
    And to be clear.. my problem has always been his knack for over-promising with ridiculous timelines (which were later compounded by what I believe are over the top P2W components).

    Hello Slapshot,

    I don't want to insult your intelligence and I can see by your post count and the community you are a member of that it must be safe to assume that when it comes to MMO's, you know a thing or two. So I'm a little surprised to see you clarify your true complaint; the delay of an MMO when, as anyone with well-cut MMO teeth would know, nearly every MMO falls short of their time line. Actually no, most fall FAR from their timeline. The last two MMO's I waited for, Archeage, and more recently Albion Online were greatly delayed. IIR, ALbion was delayed by 3 years compared to their initial time line... let me check my notes real quick:

    Here we go:
    Initial launch date set for 2008. Then there was no date provided for YEARS until in 2013 they said Q3 2015, then Q4 2015, then 2016 with no quarter and finally, this past July 2017, it launched, and the game is dead from Beta burnout.

    This is an extreme example of delay, 2008 to 2017, almost a freaking decade. But it's not an extreme example of a specific delays. Delays with MMO's are par for the course. This is something I would expect you to know, here on an MMORPG community, with over 7000 posts to your name, knowing so much about the MMO industry, I mean, you've probably been around since Meridian, am I right? Or maybe MUDS on AOL 2.0 when you paid by the hour, $2.99 per hour.

    Do delays in MMO's really shock you?

    And do you truly not understand what a P2W model is? $40 and you own COE and can play it for a year, how does that compare to a standard $15/mo for a one year period for other subscription MMOs? I'll give you a hint, it's less. ;-) And if you want to play for another year after having already bought the game, it's a whopping $26, less than what it costs to pay for 2 months for many other standard subscription rates... and you literally have access to everything anyone else does, there is no P2W. Backers spending $1000's.... yes, and they can lose it, so why back it? Because it's not P2W, they are paying to support and see the culmination of something unique happen to the MMO industry, and titles. You think titles are P2W? Do you really understand what COE is?
    mystichaze
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Slapshot's point isn't that the game was delayed, it's that they sold the initial vision on a completely unrealistic timeline..  He isn't ignoring the trend and reality of MMORPG development, the folks behind CoE were.  He was simply calling them out on it from day one.

    And I'm P2W has nothing to do with the subscription example you gave.  That's a red herring argument at best.
    Asm0deusYashaXSlapshot1188GdemamiMendel

    image
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,875
    bohooo I can't get a backpack!! I'm disappoint!! this P2W!!! :,,(

    Grow up kid.
    Says the guy with the throwaway account and highly immature troll name in a flame post.
    DakeruJamesGoblinNildenSlapshot1188angerbeaver

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • OnixeOnixe Member CommonPosts: 3
    edited October 2017
    Slapshot's point isn't that the game was delayed, it's that they sold the initial vision on a completely unrealistic timeline..  He isn't ignoring the trend and reality of MMORPG development, the folks behind CoE were.  He was simply calling them out on it from day one.

    And I'm P2W has nothing to do with the subscription example you gave.  That's a red herring argument at best.
    Kind of like the unrealistic time lines all of the other MMO's developers have, had, and will still have. Either way, I fail to see justification for the complaints about a time line and P2W. In fact I don't get his post at all. He began by commenting on negative comments about the announced ala cart, then later decided that his real problem was with the time line which was not even mentioned in the OP, followed by a pinch of p2w claims.

    I could find some wiggle room to listen to complaints about some of the mew purchase items, but he has denounced that himself in favor of a new time-line complain that he says is his real problem.

    The bottom line is this, and I say this knowing the source, and also having experienced it. I don't know the recipe for success, but I know the recipe for disaster, and that's trying to make *everyone* happy, because it can't be done. Yes, someone that opted for a more expensive package to gain Alpha access may be upset that it could have cost them less if they built their own package. But then you have those that want Alpha, or Beta, and could not afford it or did not want to pay it, now happy that they can. I'm not one of them so don't mistake this for bias, but I also have no problem with someone able to jump into Beta for less than what I paid. So what right? Yes, not everyone is happy with this, and many more are quite happy and some of us don't mind it either way.

    And if I posted a red herring, it would not be an argument, it would be a fallacy. But it was on topic to his complaints, so not a red herring. The guy paying $40 to play the game with no title can dislocated the guy that paid $10,000 with a title to back the game. There are also people that have paid $500 and plan to give up their title at launch. My argument is valid, it's not p2w. I'm open to arguments to the contrary, so long as they are not confused as fallacies.
    Post edited by Onixe on
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,802
    Skipping over all these new accounts was amusing.
    I think my favorite was the guy who attacked SoL because they are earning their own money rather than selling p2w aspects.

    CoE mocking SoL.. let's bring Pantheon into this too and have a Royal Rumble of overpromised games.
    Slapshot1188Asm0deus
    Harbinger of Fools
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,096
    Zerbe said:
    Hey All,

    I don't tend to frequent MMORPG.com as much any more, but I saw this post and I was again disgusted to see people still trying to tear down the hard work my team does, the progress we've made, and the close connection we have with our community.

    The entire premise of this post is misleading, which was clearly the intention from the beginning.

    The title of this topic is: "CoE announces plan to commoditize and sell many perks individually, gets hit in face with backlash"

    However, there has been no backlash. We were asked to make the change. Have there been a few people who complained on our forum about the change? Of course. And I believe the OP quoted every one of them.

    What they intentionally didn't quote are the following:

    "Great update, Vye. Now's the time to fill your boots, people :)"

    ""Finally a Surname :)"

    "God bless Vie. Lol about time"


    "
    That's super exciting! I can't wait to see what the prices are for some of the a la carte items!"

    In short, the post in question is 6 pages long, and there's a mix of both extremely happy people, and some unhappy. But, you'll notice that the topic itself has a post score of +16. Meaning, at the very least 16 more people felt the need to upvote than downvote.

    A couple days later we posted the prices for the a la carte, which has received +41 upvotes.

    "Beautiful update thank you for giving us what we asked! The thing about donating to the International Association for Suicide Prevention is a wonderful idea. Thank you Soulbound"

    "Awsome! Thank you.Caspian!"

    ""For every purchase of the "Headstone Name & Message" a la carte item, Soulbound Studios will donate $25 (50%) to the International Association for Suicide Prevention."

    Amazing! Never expected you guys to do this, just incredible."

    In short, we made the change because a ton of people asked to provide those things a la carte in a way that meant people who purchased the packages got a huge discount, while others who didn't want to spend so much still got what they wanted.

    All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January.

    In case you're not actively following our development, here's the latest developer journal:

    Check out all These Character Skins

    And if you want to see the video that accompanies many of the screenshots in that post, check out our latest production video:

    Pre-Alpha Progress Update

    In closing, don't believe everything you read on these forums. We've got 1,500 members in our Discord channel, actively engaging with us on a daily basis. So you can either read the trashy forum posts here, or you can come into our Discord or join our forums and talk directly to us.

    We really aren't like everyone else. No matter what the MMORPG.com forums lead you to believe.


    Also look at this the Developer took time to come to this forum and talk to you about his game, I have never heard of any AAA devs or Indy devs doing that. Caspian is right discord is the place to be so come join us. https://discord.gg/JqSUuDY
    Any questions just find me on Discord and ill do my best to answer.
    Stop embarrassing yourself. 
    ....
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited October 2017
    Onixe said:
    Slapshot's point isn't that the game was delayed, it's that they sold the initial vision on a completely unrealistic timeline..  He isn't ignoring the trend and reality of MMORPG development, the folks behind CoE were.  He was simply calling them out on it from day one.

    And I'm P2W has nothing to do with the subscription example you gave.  That's a red herring argument at best.
    Kind of like the unrealistic time lines all of the other MMO's developers have, had, and will still have. Either way, I fail to see justification for the complaints about a time line and P2W. In fact I don't get his post at all. He began by commenting on negative comments about the announced ala cart, then later decided that his real problem was with the time line which was not even mentioned in the OP, followed by a pinch of p2w claims.

    I could find some wiggle room to listen to complaints about some of the mew purchase items, but he has denounced that himself in favor of a new time-line complain that he says is his real problem.

    The bottom line is this, and I say this knowing the source, and also having experienced it. I don't know the recipe for success, but I know the recipe for disaster, and that's trying to make *everyone* happy, because it can't be done. Yes, someone that opted for a more expensive package to gain Alpha access may be upset that it could have cost them less if they built their own package. But then you have those that want Alpha, or Beta, and could not afford it or did not want to pay it, now happy that they can. I'm not one of them so don't mistake this for bias, but I also have no problem with someone able to jump into Beta for less than what I paid. So what right? Yes, not everyone is happy with this, and many more are quite happy and some of us don't mind it either way.

    And if I posted a red herring, it would not be an argument, it would be a fallacy. But it was on topic to his complaints, so not a red herring. The guy paying $40 to play the game with no title can dislocated the guy that paid $10,000 with a title to back the game. There are also people that have paid $500 and plan to give up their title at launch. My argument is valid, it's not p2w. I'm open to arguments to the contrary, so long as they are not confused as fallacies.
    Let's leave the semantics arguments at the door.  I realize it's a logical fallacy.  You can check my post history to confirm my grasp of fallacies in general, and this one specifically, if you'd like.  But it also seemed to be your argument in whole against the P2W charge leveled at CoE.  Your comments on the subscription and cost to play CoE compared to other games reference the sub has absolutely nothing to do with P2W in any way.  It neither precludes nor resolves the idea.

    And the "me too" argument you describe doesn't do a thing to justify the overselling and under-delivering of any crowdfunded MMORPG.  It just means that the developers here are part of an overall larger issue with the current genre landscape.
    Slapshot1188Gdemami

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    Dakeru said:
    Skipping over all these new accounts was amusing.
    I think my favorite was the guy who attacked SoL because they are earning their own money rather than selling p2w aspects.

    CoE mocking SoL.. let's bring Pantheon into this too and have a Royal Rumble of overpromised games.
    That's what happens when the CEO links his post to the echo-chamber in Discord.  

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,325
    edited October 2017
    Onixe said:
    And to be clear.. my problem has always been his knack for over-promising with ridiculous timelines (which were later compounded by what I believe are over the top P2W components).

    Hello Slapshot,

    I don't want to insult your intelligence and I can see by your post count and the community you are a member of that it must be safe to assume that when it comes to MMO's, you know a thing or two. So I'm a little surprised to see you clarify your true complaint; the delay of an MMO when, as anyone with well-cut MMO teeth would know, nearly every MMO falls short of their time line. Actually no, most fall FAR from their timeline. The last two MMO's I waited for, Archeage, and more recently Albion Online were greatly delayed. IIR, ALbion was delayed by 3 years compared to their initial time line... let me check my notes real quick:

    Here we go:
    Initial launch date set for 2008. Then there was no date provided for YEARS until in 2013 they said Q3 2015, then Q4 2015, then 2016 with no quarter and finally, this past July 2017, it launched, and the game is dead from Beta burnout.

    This is an extreme example of delay, 2008 to 2017, almost a freaking decade. But it's not an extreme example of a specific delays. Delays with MMO's are par for the course. This is something I would expect you to know, here on an MMORPG community, with over 7000 posts to your name, knowing so much about the MMO industry, I mean, you've probably been around since Meridian, am I right? Or maybe MUDS on AOL 2.0 when you paid by the hour, $2.99 per hour.

    Do delays in MMO's really shock you?

    And do you truly not understand what a P2W model is? $40 and you own COE and can play it for a year, how does that compare to a standard $15/mo for a one year period for other subscription MMOs? I'll give you a hint, it's less. ;-) And if you want to play for another year after having already bought the game, it's a whopping $26, less than what it costs to pay for 2 months for many other standard subscription rates... and you literally have access to everything anyone else does, there is no P2W. Backers spending $1000's.... yes, and they can lose it, so why back it? Because it's not P2W, they are paying to support and see the culmination of something unique happen to the MMO industry, and titles. You think titles are P2W? Do you really understand what COE is?
    To your first point.  It's not just the delay itself. It's the way Jeremy mocked people who told him his timeline was unrealistic.  I have quoted his comments above.  Rule #1: You want to talk the talk, you better be able to walk the walk.

    To your second point.  Nobody is complaining about his subscription model.  It's all the rest of the P2W garbage.  And no, because you can lose something doesn't mean it's not P2W.  Here are a few:

    No wipe 3 month Headstart in a PvP game with looting based around territory control and conquest.
    Buy yourself land
    Buy yourself a title all the way up to King and other players will be your subjects
    Buy resources
    Buy mounts and transportation
    Buy siege weapons
    Buy things like technology enabling buildings
    Buy tokens to make your town bigger/stronger: The more tokens the Mayor receives, the greater the settlement becomes. Each token increases population and, at certain thresholds, tokens will create special Settlement Upgrades that your Mayor can use to increase the city limits, add additional buildings, and more!
    Buy tokens to make your Guild bigger/stronger: The more tokens your leader receives, the greater the organization becomes. Each token increases research points or resources, depending on the organization type. At certain thresholds, tokens will create special Organization Upgrades that your Leader can use to create guild halls, get additional resources.
    Buy tokens for $10 each to "vote" for the last Kingslot on the East server since nobody else wanted to pay the $10,000 list price

    Thats off the top of my head.   Do YOU really understand what CoE is?
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    KyleranKresharthAsm0deusYashaXsamzuJamesGoblinNildenGdemami

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