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Star Citizen 3.0 - Refusing Refunds

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  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Orinori said:
    He isn't spinning anything, Ortwins statement can be correct along with the conclusion that 2012 was the projects official start date. It fits the most likely series of events. 

    To reach the conclusion that CR started paying a team of people for over a year out of his own pocket (1 Million +?) for a kickstarter page and a short video? illogical. 
    Be mindful when referring to logic on the SC boards here. The detractors have long ago parted with logic and facts when it comes to SC, CR and CIG.
    OrinoriErillionEldurianExcessionGdemamiZandog
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,331
    Shodanas said:
    Orinori said:
    He isn't spinning anything, Ortwins statement can be correct along with the conclusion that 2012 was the projects official start date. It fits the most likely series of events. 

    To reach the conclusion that CR started paying a team of people for over a year out of his own pocket (1 Million +?) for a kickstarter page and a short video? illogical. 
    Be mindful when referring to logic on the SC boards here. The detractors have long ago parted with logic and facts when it comes to SC, CR and CIG.
    Fortunately you guys are with your insights and complete lack of random judgement of other people to set that right.

    Thank god for small favors.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,798
    Never mind this banter, what comes out first? Star Citizen (all the "modules") or the final movie in the new Star Wars trilogy? Discuss.
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,794
    Never mind this banter, what comes out first? Star Citizen (all the "modules") or the final movie in the new Star Wars trilogy? Discuss.
    Better question is will all modules of star citizen come out before we actually have our own spaceships to fly?
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,331
    edited October 2017
    Never mind this banter, what comes out first? Star Citizen (all the "modules") or the final movie in the new Star Wars trilogy? Discuss.
    Seriously, if you are talking specifically if SC will be released in full before xmas 2019 I doubt you will find much discussion. I actually think that both sides will agree that that is not very likely.

    If you ahd asked how much will be done before then or if SQ42 will be out, yeah, then there will be a huge discussion.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:

    So I guess part of the reason I'm not stomping around screaming like a child who didn't get their candy is my expectations for this game have always been pretty grounded no matter how many features they promise. So when I see they actually have done things like build a FPS system and incorporate it in with space combat in the PTU I'm pleasantly surprised, and not throwing a fit because Star Marine is a bit buggy, as I was always fairly skeptical as to whether or not they would do it at all.

    Is this really necessary?

    Look, for months at a time they hype patches and the content and gameplay to be delivered in those patches They then deploy the patches to the PTU and, especially in the case of builds like 2.4, the client crashes just loading the game, the servers crash every few minutes and the whole process is so buggy and janky that you can hardly test the game anyway.
    All of this occurs after saying things like "We are delaying the patch to deliver the quality and polish that the backers have come to expect."

    On top of all that you then have to download multiple gigabytes every day with 2.4 being something ridiculous like 20+ patches, because after 4 years they still didn't have an incremental patcher in place.

    It's not surprising that people were getting annoyed given all the hype and rhetoric coming from the studio. Laying all of the blame on the backers and none on the company says it all tbh.
    Yes it is. 

    Like with Dust 514 they made an absolutely amazing game. But the game was judged more on the fact they had to scale back some of the original promises than the fact that it had solid gameplay with a lot exceptionally fun and innovative ideas.

    What Star Citizen has accomplished is impressive when judged by the standard of measuring against every other MMO. We've been delivered WoW with minor alterations for 10 years now. The only games at all innovative (Or fun IMO) are "buggy messes" like Darkfall, Mortal Online, and Wurm Online.

    They actually have FPS combat and Space Combat merged together in the PTU working alongside each other. That crap is groundbreaking. It's never been done before. Apparently 3.0 allows you to land on a planet with no loading time between being in space and walking around the full sized planet's surface. Again. Groundbreaking. Never seen that in any other game.

    And when I say "I'm excited about Star Citizen" I always get a predictable response of. "Lol. That game's a joke. Just listen to what experienced game developers like Derek Smart say about it."

    "OMG it's taking so long! It's vaporware!"

    If you want to sit there and tell me it's taking too long for you, and you aren't confident in it. Fine so be it.

    But when you are going to tell me I'm an idiot for supporting or being excited about a game that does things I have never seen in any other game before I can log on and mess around with right now... Because it didn't live up to that one promise you were super excited about. Yeah I'm going to take a lot of exception to that. And that's what about 99% percent of the anti-SC bullcrap on these boards is.

    It's going to be a damn good game, and it falling short of your personal expectations doesn't change that. If you are angry about it sell your crap, and move on with your life.
    ErillionGdemamiZandog
  • ExcessionExcession Member RarePosts: 709
    Shodanas said:
    Orinori said:
    He isn't spinning anything, Ortwins statement can be correct along with the conclusion that 2012 was the projects official start date. It fits the most likely series of events. 

    To reach the conclusion that CR started paying a team of people for over a year out of his own pocket (1 Million +?) for a kickstarter page and a short video? illogical. 
    Be mindful when referring to logic on the SC boards here. The detractors have long ago parted with logic and facts when it comes to SC, CR and CIG.
    still standing in fire I see.

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited October 2017
    If they refuse a refund, get a direct refund from the bank. Problem solved. That is what I did. If they refunded it themselves, it would have been cheaper for them. Instead I imagine the bank charged them extra that they otherwise wouldn't have needed to pay. Jokes on them.
    OdeezeeGdemami

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,415
    edited October 2017
    You can keep playing the semantics game all you want they have been taking money for over 5 years now. To the tune of (allegedly) 160 million. So regardless if they worked on it a year prior is really immaterial at this point. They have surely spent at least halkf of the 160 (for guys who want to claim they cant spend money theyre still 'raising) except of course the loan they took out against themselves would suggest they have in fact spent it all and have borrowed on future potential earnings.

    Either way they have spent a shit ton of money and what do we have?

    If they didnt take in  another dime what exists? 

    is it worth what they have spent?

    I would say the resounding answer to all those things is a hell no.

    It wouldnt be a stretch to think they wouldnt even be able to make the 3.0 portion (which is tiny)  that they have released to the evocati playable if they didnt take any more money in. So what would that do with all th eother 700 or so lines of patch notes floating around.

    Its put up or shut up time right now. 3.0 or bust. Think up any stupid cliche but theyre on the clock (another one) right now, and if 3.0 is a flop I cant wait for the reactions.



  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    rodarin said:
    You can keep playing the semantics game all you want they have been taking money for over 5 years now. To the tune of (allegedly) 160 million. So regardless if they worked on it a year prior is really immaterial at this point. They have surely spent at least halkf of the 160 (for guys who want to claim they cant spend money theyre still 'raising) except of course the loan they took out against themselves would suggest they have in fact spent it all and have borrowed on future potential earnings.

    Either way they have spent a shit ton of money and what do we have?

    If they didnt take in  another dime what exists? 

    is it worth what they have spent?

    I would say the resounding answer to all those things is a hell no.

    It wouldnt be a stretch to think they wouldnt even be able to make the 3.0 portion (which is tiny)  that they have released to the evocati playable if they didnt take any more money in. So what would that do with all th eother 700 or so lines of patch notes floating around.

    Its put up or shut up time right now. 3.0 or bust. Think up any stupid cliche but theyre on the clock (another one) right now, and if 3.0 is a flop I cant wait for the reactions.



    Well you clearly stated in a previous post that 3.0 is unplayable. Which made people think that you have access to it. So i asked you to give us bits of info regarding the build. Nothing to go against the NDA and grant you a ban ofc, just some insight about why CIG gave 3.0 to the evocati in an unplayable condition.
  • ExcessionExcession Member RarePosts: 709
    Eldurian said:

    They actually have FPS combat and Space Combat merged together in the PTU working alongside each other. That crap is groundbreaking. It's never been done before. Apparently 3.0 allows you to land on a planet with no loading time between being in space and walking around the full sized planet's surface. Again. Groundbreaking. Never seen that in any other game.


    SWG: JTL, you could duel / PVP in the Sorosuub Luxury Yacht, while not exactly the same as SC, was still FPS and space combat merged together.

    Again, SWG, they turned on atmospheric flight, enabling space to planet flight/landings with no cutscenes/loading times.

    So it has been done before, and is not so groundbreaking, though I will admit to SC possibly improving on it.
    Odeezee

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    Excession said:
    Eldurian said:

    They actually have FPS combat and Space Combat merged together in the PTU working alongside each other. That crap is groundbreaking. It's never been done before. Apparently 3.0 allows you to land on a planet with no loading time between being in space and walking around the full sized planet's surface. Again. Groundbreaking. Never seen that in any other game.


    SWG: JTL, you could duel / PVP in the Sorosuub Luxury Yacht, while not exactly the same as SC, was still FPS and space combat merged together.

    Again, SWG, they turned on atmospheric flight, enabling space to planet flight/landings with no cutscenes/loading times.

    So it has been done before, and is not so groundbreaking, though I will admit to SC possibly improving on it.
    Correct me if I wrong but ships in SWG had instanced interiors. So while technically you are doing the space stuff and the FPS stuff at the same time it's not those systems working together.

    Where in the 3.0 demos you have a guy who opens the back of his vehicle and is firing some kind anti-ship weaponry out the back of at a cutlass (An actual space ship) while someone else drives the vehicle and the spaceships is flying along firing at them. 

    I'm not sure if you can have ship bays open during flight but theoretically if you can, you should be able to have people aim out of open bays of your ship and fire at the ground below with FPS weapons given that ship interiors are not instanced.

    That kind of marriage of an FPS and space combat is really something we're seeing Star Citizen actually doing to a level that has never even been attempted before.

    The fact that video I linked was made with actual in-game footage is incredible to me. Nevermind that it's still a bit buggy, It's amazing that they pulled it off at all.
    Gdemami
  • ExcessionExcession Member RarePosts: 709
    Eldurian said:
    Excession said:
    Eldurian said:

    They actually have FPS combat and Space Combat merged together in the PTU working alongside each other. That crap is groundbreaking. It's never been done before. Apparently 3.0 allows you to land on a planet with no loading time between being in space and walking around the full sized planet's surface. Again. Groundbreaking. Never seen that in any other game.


    SWG: JTL, you could duel / PVP in the Sorosuub Luxury Yacht, while not exactly the same as SC, was still FPS and space combat merged together.

    Again, SWG, they turned on atmospheric flight, enabling space to planet flight/landings with no cutscenes/loading times.

    So it has been done before, and is not so groundbreaking, though I will admit to SC possibly improving on it.
    Correct me if I wrong but ships in SWG had instanced interiors. So while technically you are doing the space stuff and the FPS stuff at the same time it's not those systems working together.

    Where in the 3.0 demos you have a guy who opens the back of his vehicle and is firing some kind anti-ship weaponry out the back of at a cutlass (An actual space ship) while someone else drives the vehicle and the spaceships is flying along firing at them. 

    I'm not sure if you can have ship bays open during flight but theoretically if you can, you should be able to have people aim out of open bays of your ship and fire at the ground below with FPS weapons given that ship interiors are not instanced.

    That kind of marriage of an FPS and space combat is really something we're seeing Star Citizen actually doing to a level that has never even been attempted before.

    The fact that video I linked was made with actual in-game footage is incredible to me. Nevermind that it's still a bit buggy, It's amazing that they pulled it off at all.
    Ship interiors in SWG were just like house interiors, they were persistent, could be decorated, items placed into them stayed in them.

    Looking at that video you linked, where is the marriage of FPS and space combat? it is all taking place on a planet.

    Plenty of games out there have air to ground / ground to air combat, with players able to shoot at vehicles from another vehicle, 

    The rest of your post is just theoretical, you say yourself you are not sure if it is possible in the game.

    All I can say is you are easily amazed.

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    rodarin said:

    what exists? 

    is it worth what they have spent?

    I would say the resounding answer to all those things is a hell no.
    so you do have 3.0 access? and you must also have access to all of their current assets not included in 3.0? or are you just making guesses that you like the sound of?
    ExcessionGdemami
  • ExcessionExcession Member RarePosts: 709
    Orinori said:
    rodarin said:

    what exists? 

    is it worth what they have spent?

    I would say the resounding answer to all those things is a hell no.
    so you do have 3.0 access? and you must also have access to all of their current assets not included in 3.0? or are you just making guesses that you like the sound of?
    Why the partial quote? 
    If you are going to quote him, do not take part of it out of context so you can spin it.

    He asked If they did not take in another dime what exists? and is it worth what they have spent?

    It has nothing to do with him having access to 3.0 or not.

    Try and honestly answer his questions.

    If RSI/CIG actually had no money left, and had to release SC and SQ42 right now, would those game's seem worth the 161 million they have spent?

    In that scenario, I agree with @rodarin, from what I have seen of them so far, hell no.

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited October 2017
    Excession said:
    Orinori said:
    rodarin said:

    what exists? 

    is it worth what they have spent?

    I would say the resounding answer to all those things is a hell no.
    so you do have 3.0 access? and you must also have access to all of their current assets not included in 3.0? or are you just making guesses that you like the sound of?
    Why the partial quote? 

    He asked If they did not take in another dime what exists? and is it worth what they have spent?

    It has nothing to do with him having access to 3.0 or not.
    Because I take what I view as the most important part of the messages out and respond to them and I will quote what ever I feel is relevant thanks and that will always be my call to make :)

    you asked the same question and nothing changed

    I don't have access to 3.0 so I can't get a good preview of playable work to date, but also I do not have access to the entire asset collection that is also worked on throughout all of the different studios to answer that question even if I did have access to 3.0. I assume you do not either have that information and neither does he. 

    I will also state it is a pretty silly question, I don't for a moment think they have spent 161 million (I have run the guess numbers myself before a while back that included tax back etc..) and there isn't any question of funds instantly drying up short of some kind of catastrophe that isn't currently anywhere to be seen. Further to this I wouldn't even bat an eye lid if CIG went out right now and secured a loan to at least twice the amount they have already raised, which they could probably easily do, and operated in the red like a heck of a lot of large companies actually do (a bit like how most people probably live in a relatively expensive house they have massive mortgage on....but living just fine!) . So please keep dreaming about how CIG could be on the edge of a cliff if that's whats gets you through, but they are not, not even close, they are well in the green with funds still rolling in and the game still being made. Next up on the mega milestones - 4.0 I am sure we will have to suffer the constant cries all the way through to that release also. 
    Post edited by Orinori on
    ExcessionGdemamiZandog
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Orinori said:
    Excession said:
    Orinori said:
    rodarin said:

    what exists? 

    is it worth what they have spent?

    I would say the resounding answer to all those things is a hell no.
    so you do have 3.0 access? and you must also have access to all of their current assets not included in 3.0? or are you just making guesses that you like the sound of?
    Why the partial quote? 

    He asked If they did not take in another dime what exists? and is it worth what they have spent?

    It has nothing to do with him having access to 3.0 or not.
     Next up on the mega milestones - 4.0 I am sure we will have to suffer the constant cries all the way through to that release also. 
    LMAO seriously cant make this up. 3.0 isnt even released to the PTU and people already looking to 4.0. And this guy is a cheerleader. Doesnt speak well of what he thinks I guess. But that comment right there is extremely telling.

    Also love what he says about them going out and borrowing 320 million (twice what they have already taken in) to finish the game. I would hope they could finish it with a half a billion dollar budget.

    Really these guys get on a posting tear and they dont have a clue what theyre saying half the time.
    ScotchUpZandog
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    rodarin said:

    LMAO seriously cant make this up. 3.0 isnt even released to the PTU 
    3.0 is on the PTU....I have to tell you this for a second time ^^.

    Looking forward to launch also!
    Gdemami
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Orinori said:
    rodarin said:

    LMAO seriously cant make this up. 3.0 isnt even released to the PTU 
    3.0 is on the PTU....I have to tell you this for a second time ^^.

    Looking forward to launch also!
    no its on the super secret test bed now not the PUBLIC test universe. 

    Again guys white knighting a game they dont know too much about I guess.
    ScotchUpKefo
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited October 2017
    rodarin said:

    no its on the super secret test bed now not the PUBLIC test universe. 

    Again guys white knighting a game they dont know too much about I guess.
    Hmm looks like you could be right, my mistake sorry. Pretty sure I know more about the game than someone who doesn't own it and never even tried it though :)
    ExcessionGdemami
  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 558
    But do you know more than maxbacon did?!!
    gir243Octagon7711
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited October 2017
    But do you know more than maxbacon did?!!
    Not from what I could tell no. Max was is (:S) pretty computer literate which helps a lot I guess. I love your avatar btw, it instantly makes me feel sympathetic towards you.
    Excessionkikoodutroa8GdemamiCotic
  • gir243gir243 Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Orinori said:
    But do you know more than maxbacon did?!!
    Not from what I could tell no. Max was is (:S) pretty computer literate which helps a lot I guess. I love your avatar btw, it instantly makes me feel sympathetic towards you.

    I think you just leveled up in passive aggressiveness. Congrats.
    Cotic
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    Excession said:

    Ship interiors in SWG were just like house interiors, they were persistent, could be decorated, items placed into them stayed in them.

    Looking at that video you linked, where is the marriage of FPS and space combat? it is all taking place on a planet.

    Plenty of games out there have air to ground / ground to air combat, with players able to shoot at vehicles from another vehicle, 

    The rest of your post is just theoretical, you say yourself you are not sure if it is possible in the game.

    All I can say is you are easily amazed.
    Because if you watch the full video you will know that if at any point they fly their ship far enough up, they will go into space. No loading. No zone cross-over. Those ships flew down from space and are on the planet with no transition.

    Meaning they are still effectively in the same zone as the surrounding space, and everything being done is being done with the same mechanics as a space fight.

    If they were fighting above a space station or asteroid that had enough flat surface for the vehicle to drive you could have a very similar fight play out. And the ship interiors will still be non-instanced. 
    GdemamiZandogCotic
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