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Star Citizen 3.0 - Refusing Refunds

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  • ExcessionExcession Member RarePosts: 709
    Talonsin said:
    Erillion said:
    >>> because you brush off interviews >>>

    As we discussed many times before .. i do not brush off these interviews. I point out that what you call a quote from Ortwin or Chris are in fact the words of the author of the article, NOT direct quotes from Ortwin or Chris. And some of these authors misinterpret things. As can be shown with a fact check. Which some of them did not do.

    And Chris PERSONALLY has worked on the SC project for a long time. No doubt about that. Most likely ever since the end of the Freelancer project. But WITH A TEAM he worked on it since April 2012. NOT 2011.

    But you already knew that.

    This discussion is like a broken record ... always repeats itself.


    Have fun
    Which is more likely

    1. Several interviewers ask questions of Chris and Ortwin and ALL of them get the year wrong

    or

    2. CIG has a misleading date on their website (CIG was founded in 2012 but RSI was founded in 2011 with Chris and his small team who started working on the demo to use for the KS)


    I seem to recall CR stating that SC had been worked on for a year already by the time the KS campaign started.

    Erillion will no doubt say it does not matter, and that it does not count as they only had a couple of people at that point.

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Excession said:
    I seem to recall CR stating that SC had been worked on for a year already by the time the KS campaign started.

    Erillion will no doubt say it does not matter, and that it does not count as they only had a couple of people at that point.
    Erillion will say that CR said it had been worked on "in the past year" (which was 2012, as the interview was in 2012). CR has NOT said "for a year already". That is just deliberatly wrong quoting by a certain group of people.


    Have fun
    Gdemami
  • CoticCotic Member UncommonPosts: 219
    Erillion said:

    Ironically, the reason they implemented the evocatis is because there was so much whinging from star citizen backers about how buggy the builds were, how often the game was crashing and how much they were having to download....


    Evocati explained:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=ZVLJFgAyd_Y


    Have fun

    I remember when they introduced the Evocati, it was after a patch which ended up going through the whole alphabet. The servers were crashing within minutes. people could hardly load the game without it crashing. The forums and /r/starcitizen were in meltdown.
    Very shortly afterwards they decided to segregate the testing further.

    Octagon7711Excessionsgel
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:
    The reason the even have NDA videos is because of little snot noses who can't figure out that the pre-release of a pre-release is going to be a bit buggy and try to compare it to released titles that were just as buggy at that stage of development.

    Ironically, the reason they implemented the evocatis is because there was so much whinging from star citizen backers about how buggy the builds were, how often the game was crashing and how much they were having to download....


    Exactly. Whiny snot noses. I have yet to beta test a game in which they did not sit there and cry about how horribly buggy the game was, or be there for a release that they didn't whine either.

    That's why I say princes/princesses who have no concept of reality. What game are they comparing it to that wasn't buggy at this point? Certainly none of the ones I have tested.

    Just whiny entitled snot noses who have unrealistic ideas about how things should work and cry when anything falls beneath their expectations no matter how absurd they are. If they are going to cry that the unreleased version of a game is buggy they're just flat ignorant. So there is certainly a need to screen out the entitled brats for some of the more serious testing.
    ExcessionGdemami
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Talonsin said:
    Which is more likely

    1. Several interviewers ask questions of Chris and Ortwin and ALL of them get the year wrong

    or

    2. CIG has a misleading date on their website

    Funny how a company supposedly founding in 2012 registered its website on Oct 2011

    A simple whois search shows this.

    I am still baffled why you fight this issue so strongly.  What is the big deal if they started work in 2011 or 2012?  We both know this game wont be close to containing half the features advertised until after 2020.  It really doesnt matter to me, I just bring this up because it seems to hit a nerve with you hence you using caps in your post.



    >>> Funny how a company supposedly founding in 2012 registered its website on Oct 2011 >>>

    Some people register a website years in advance. THAT is your proof ? There are plenty of golddiggers that speculatively reserve lots of website names at minimal cost just to sell them for a HUGE profit later to those that really should own these website names.


    I use CAPS because this topic has been discussed ad nauseam about 20 times in the past, with nothing new added to it. And still it is brought back from the grave time and time again.


    A company having misleading data on their website when it comes to legally relevant information like company registration number or founding date ... i think not.


    A few authors getting a year wrong (out of hundreds of people that wanted and got an interview about SC and then published articles about it)  and/or misinterpreting CRs words ... sounds quite likely to me.


    What you call "fighting" i call sticking to the facts. If you can show me a quotable credible source that states that facts are different, i am more than happy to accept these corrected facts.


    Have fun

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Cotic said:
    Erillion said:

    Ironically, the reason they implemented the evocatis is because there was so much whinging from star citizen backers about how buggy the builds were, how often the game was crashing and how much they were having to download....


    Evocati explained:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=ZVLJFgAyd_Y


    Have fun

    I remember when they introduced the Evocati, it was after a patch which ended up going through the whole alphabet. The servers were crashing within minutes. people could hardly load the game without it crashing. The forums and /r/starcitizen were in meltdown.
    Very shortly afterwards they decided to segregate the testing further.

    So does that mean devs were not testing the builds as well as they could and were just putting out an mvp?  Or that the builds were rushed out before ready?  I only really see them stressed around convention time.  Perhaps that's the only time CR really puts pressure on them.  Just something to think about as they talk a lot about not putting out anything before it's ready.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    So does that mean devs were not testing the builds as well as they could and were just putting out an mvp?  Or that the builds were rushed out before ready?  I only really see them stressed around convention time.  Perhaps that's the only time CR really puts pressure on them.  Just something to think about as they talk a lot about not putting out anything before it's ready.
    That means that some bugs rear their ugly heads only during load testing. Or occur rarely.

    Internal QA can only do so much.

    At some point you have to bring in more warm bodies and just try to break everything that is breakable.

    >>> I only really see them stressed around convention time. >>>

    I admire your psychic farseeing ability. I cannot watch dozens of QA testers in 4 different countries around the clock through my psychoocular powers.

    Tell us more about what you "see" ....


    Have fun
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Erillion said:
    So does that mean devs were not testing the builds as well as they could and were just putting out an mvp?  Or that the builds were rushed out before ready?  I only really see them stressed around convention time.  Perhaps that's the only time CR really puts pressure on them.  Just something to think about as they talk a lot about not putting out anything before it's ready.
    That means that some bugs rear their ugly heads only during load testing. Or occur rarely.

    Internal QA can only do so much.

    At some point you have to bring in more warm bodies and just try to break everything that is breakable.

    >>> I only really see them stressed around convention time. >>>

    I admire your psychic farseeing ability. I cannot watch dozens of QA testers in 4 different countries around the clock through my psychoocular powers.

    Tell us more about what you "see" ....


    Have fun
    Not to be difficult but that would mean improper testing.  I could see a stray bug every once in awhile slipping through but constant crashes is another thing.  Plus they have an internal set of dedicated testers, perhaps they all use identical rigs.

    Actually strike that.  I notice it happens a lot with new companies.  ESO crashed like hell after launch and they still have problems with it after major updates.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • DaranarDaranar Member UncommonPosts: 371
    It's amazing how many people don't understand the purpose of larger scale alpha testing.  It's not to see if you have a good release with minimal bugs and pat yourself on the back.  The ENTIRE purpose is to break crap so you know what needs fixing.  Like Erillion said, "You have to bring in more warm bodies and just try to break everything that is breakable."   That is the entire point.  A small dev team cannot discover all the bugs simply because in a massive multiplayer system, they cannot trigger bugs associated to load.  Alpha and Beta is not a preview demo, it's there to actively have players discover bugs so hopefully an acceptable amount of them can be fixed by release ( or before moving onto another phase of development).  

    And of course they stress extra around convention times.  What game development team doesn't?  You need to come with a product to show off.  It's high stress for dev teams of any size in any company.

    Gamers have become so freaking whinny and demanding.
    ErillionShodanasGdemami

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    >>> perhaps they all use identical rigs. >>>

    In previous video blogs they stated that QA is testing with several different system configurations.

    They also made clear that this is not a game that will run properly on old computers like WoW did when it came out. One DOES need a fairly new rig to play SC in a decent quality. Always gives me flashbacks to the times of Wing Commander, when you had to buy a new rig whenever a new Wing Commander was finished.

    SC looks amazing on a high end machine !


    Have fun

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    According to domain name registration, the web based business I'm taking accounting, management, and tech courses to build the skillset I need to run it, has already been up and running for about 2 years.
    Gdemami
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    Daranar said:
     The ENTIRE purpose is to break crap 
    well then theyre the best testers ever....
    Octagon7711Erillion
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    rodarin said:
    Daranar said:
     The ENTIRE purpose is to break crap 
    well then theyre the best testers ever....
    actually thats wrong because you cant break something that never worked in the first place, my bad.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    Shodanas
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,702
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    PONG.


    Have fun
    EldurianOctagon7711
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Daranar said:
    It's amazing how many people don't understand the purpose of larger scale alpha testing.  It's not to see if you have a good release with minimal bugs and pat yourself on the back.  The ENTIRE purpose is to break crap so you know what needs fixing.  Like Erillion said, "You have to bring in more warm bodies and just try to break everything that is breakable."   That is the entire point.  A small dev team cannot discover all the bugs simply because in a massive multiplayer system, they cannot trigger bugs associated to load.  Alpha and Beta is not a preview demo, it's there to actively have players discover bugs so hopefully an acceptable amount of them can be fixed by release ( or before moving onto another phase of development).  

    And of course they stress extra around convention times.  What game development team doesn't?  You need to come with a product to show off.  It's high stress for dev teams of any size in any company.

    Gamers have become so freaking whinny and demanding.
    I could understand that if they were testing an entire nearly completed game but now testing is for limited updates like intergrating a planet and three moons into a small system.

    I've also noticed a trend.  Games that have relatively smooths alphas and beta tend to have relatively smooth launches.  Games with difficult alphas and betas tend to have difficult launches.  I think this boils down to dev skill sets more than anything else.  I don't recall a game that had a rocky development ever having a smooth launch.  It's usually a rocky launch that takes a year or two to smooth out.

    A polished build shouldn't have much to break.  Unless polished doesn't mean what I think it means.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    GW2 was pretty smooth.  
    ZandogExcession

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    GW2 was pretty smooth.  
    Despite the fact GW2 players only got their hands on it about 6 months before release (source), I'm going to guess that it still had some bugs to iron out.
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,451
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    there is buggy then there is unplayable, then there is a game thats already delayed a couple years and is (by the most generous guesses) 3 years away. I still say half the stuff they have claimed they had (in game play footage at the conventions) is impossible for them to do.

    So then its a 9 year saga. But people will still be able to brag about how much money fools are still giving them. But the game still wont be any closer to release and people will still be making excuses.

    I would like to know if there are ANY limits to what the 3 or 4 guys who are seemingly paid to keep defending this shitshow have where they might finally say 'you know what I dont think they will get it done'.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,007
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    Path of Exile during alpha.
    Excession
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    rodarin said:

    I still say half the stuff they have claimed they had (in game play footage at the conventions) is impossible for them to do.

    Name them, any of them. You say half of the stuff they show, so please that must be a long list. tell us some,
    Excession
  • DaranarDaranar Member UncommonPosts: 371
    Octagon, Can I suggest that due to the changing nature of Alphas and Betas that your comparison of testing to release is at best skewed and at worst completely wrong.   I suggest this because game development is changing (specifically outside of major publisher releases).   From EQ even up through GW2 I believe, testing was handled far different than it was today.  You used to have a strong emphasis on friends and family testing that was never seen by the public nor reported on to the public. (which is still done, from my understanding to a smaller degree, and the Evocati is kinda taking that on now). Then a lot of times you had Closed Alphas and Closed Betas, not like today but with strict NDAs that people actually have the respect to follow.  Even WoW did this.  Testing wasn't opened to the public until the 2 week Stress Test, which if you took part in you would remember how AWFUL it was; why?  Because they wanted to break things with lots of people.  I have participated in some closed tests with NDAs and i'm sure you have too and I can tell you for many smooth release games, some of those closed tests were quite rocky.  But again this was not seen by the public and often reported to the public through the PR lens of the company.  Then throw in major publisher games and you even introduce a new level of testing through private testing companies.

    This is all to say that new indie studios, which RSI/CGI is regardless of their funding, don't often do this anymore.   Alphas are now very public even if they are technically a 'closed' access.  And when they are crowd funded there is even more of a pressure to do so because your investors are your players, which can suck as we see, but is a lesser evil than the suits.  So the perception that this and many other new games testing periods are rocky is a fair observation due to a climate change in the game development world.  There was always rocky Alphas, it's just many times these alphas were sealed off from the public's eye like a lab at Northrup Grumman.  Now games (especially crowd funded games) are developed under the public eye, and SC is perhaps the most public of developments, therefore the failures, the broken systems, the rocky builds are all seen, shared and scrutinized by every prospective player and hater.   Which is exactly why games on big publisher platforms go through private testing companies with strict NDAs because it's not just their game's public image they have to protect, but their investors dollars and future reputation.
    ErillionExcession

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!


  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    edited October 2017
    rodarin said:
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    there is buggy then there is unplayable, then there is a game thats already delayed a couple years and is (by the most generous guesses) 3 years away. I still say half the stuff they have claimed they had (in game play footage at the conventions) is impossible for them to do.

    So then its a 9 year saga. But people will still be able to brag about how much money fools are still giving them. But the game still wont be any closer to release and people will still be making excuses.

    I would like to know if there are ANY limits to what the 3 or 4 guys who are seemingly paid to keep defending this shitshow have where they might finally say 'you know what I dont think they will get it done'.
    You didn't answer the question. Instead you went again on a hate rant without providing anything of substance in the debate.

    Also, how exactly is alpha 2.6.3 unplayable ? Mind to elaborate ? If you have technical issues i can direct you to the right place to remedy most of them provided you're not running it on a potato.

    You are indeed a backer and do have access to 2.6.3.. correct ?
    Daranar
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited October 2017
    @Shodanas
    rodarin said:

     And I am not stupid enough to give Roberts a frigging penny.
    That would seem to be the answer to your question.

    @rodarin ;

    None of the weak evidence you guys keep bringing up is going to make me say that. I've already said multiple times I think the original vision is going to get reigned in a bit but there is a massive amount of content and assets that work far better than you pretend they do that say that this game will get made in some form or another, and that form will probably be pretty damn fun.

    Edit: Also. Just a shout out to Chris Roberts. Apparently my defense of this game is professional quality given people are presuming I'm being paid to do it. Would you mind sending me a check? Would be much appreciated.
    ErillionZandog
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited October 2017
    Shaigh said:
    Eldurian said:
    I'll repeat again for the little royalty who have to have everything their way NOW.

    What game are you using as a basis of comparison that was not buggy as hell during it's testing phases?
    Path of Exile during alpha.
    PoE developed under the radar for almost 4 years starting in

    2007
    Alpha started around June 2010
    public announcement sept 2010
    closed beta that could be accessed later if you payed in August 2011
    open beta on 23 January 2013
    released on on 23 October 2013


    You played in the Alpha? looks like general public wasn't given that kind of access, who are you that you managed that? the dev?

    I found this alpha vid kind of funny, looks a lot different! 

    PoE took almost 7 years to make, but probably best not to compare PoE's extremely simple and 'content light extreme' with SC development.  
    Post edited by Orinori on
    Excession
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