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Old school design flaws... are they real problems !

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  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member UncommonPosts: 286
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    Maybe not everyone finds these elements as desirable as you.

    What is seen as virtue by one is often seen as flaw by another.

    Considering that most of what you mention was once very much the norm for MMORPGs and that a game that departed from them became an industry juggernaut such that it became the new norm suggests that a fair number of people didn't find those game aspects quite so appealing once an alternative was available.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,663
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    Yes. If a game is not convenient, i am not going to bother. I am playing games for fun, not to work. 

    There are so many games .. two months is plenty of time for one. 
    alkarionlog
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,938
    @Scorchien

    You do realize the fact that the people in that video not being newbs only strengthens my point right? Any person in that video dying could easily one shot a newb. So the fact they are getting steamrolled by a guy who's taking his hands off the keyboard midfight and saying "Show us your damagey!" highlights the level of imbalance in that game. It's even higher than it would be if those were newbs dying.

    The fact that he's a swiper is irrelevant. The ability to do that shows how ridiculous the imbalance in the game is. However he reached that point.

    That's the thing. That's why EVE is more balanced. He couldn't do that to day 1 newbs in EVE. But he can do it to max level characters who have some of their endgame gear already in ArcheAge.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member EpicPosts: 4,212
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien

    You do realize the fact that the people in that video not being newbs only strengthens my point right? Any person in that video dying could easily one shot a newb. So the fact they are getting steamrolled by a guy who's taking his hands off the keyboard midfight and saying "Show us your damagey!" highlights the level of imbalance in that game. It's even higher than it would be if those were newbs dying.

    The fact that he's a swiper is irrelevant. The ability to do that shows how ridiculous the imbalance in the game is. However he reached that point.

    That's the thing. That's why EVE is more balanced. He couldn't do that to day 1 newbs in EVE. But he can do it to max level characters who have some of their endgame gear already in ArcheAge.
      You are completely wrong the fact that he is a Whale and was at that time one of the biggest in all of AA is the only reason he could do that ...

      Its a bad example
     
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,938
    edited October 2017
    First off you can reach that level many ways in AA. Swiping is not the most effective way unless you have thousands upon thousands to throw down. Ultimately though the most effective way has traditionally been multiboxing/multiaccounting or getting seriously good at playing the AH.

    Second off it is still beyond the point. Imbalance is imbalance. However it is achieved. 
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • ScorchienScorchien Member EpicPosts: 4,212
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    First off you can reach that level many ways in AA. Swiping is not the most effective way unless you have thousands upon thousands to throw down. Ultimately though the most effective way has traditionally been multiboxing/multiaccounting or getting seriously good at playing the AH.

    Second off it is still beyond the point. Imbalance is imbalance. However it is achieved. 
    Nooo  .. Imbalance that is caused by Class design ,can be very intentional in design and cultivate community and teamwork .. As can Skill mechainics , and Map layout imbalance as well as terrain ..

     Swiping imabalance as caused by the blatant P2W mechainics in a game like AA are something else completley different ...

      As you can see in your examp[le it is the polar opposite of teamwork and community as it promotes Solo Epeen stroking ..

            Soooo.................wrong again
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,938
    Scorchien said:

    Nooo  .. Imbalance that is caused by Class design ,can be very intentional in design and cultivate community and teamwork .. As can Skill mechainics , and Map layout imbalance as well as terrain ..
    This conversation was started by you responding to Loke. Loke was discussing stat disparity as an imbalance not these issues, not numbers disparities etc. Nobody is arguing about those issues here.

    Please stop going off-topic.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member EpicPosts: 4,212
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    Scorchien said:

    Nooo  .. Imbalance that is caused by Class design ,can be very intentional in design and cultivate community and teamwork .. As can Skill mechainics , and Map layout imbalance as well as terrain ..
    This conversation was started by you responding to Loke. Loke was discussing stat disparity as an imbalance not these issues, not numbers disparities etc. Nobody is arguing about those issues here.

    Please stop going off-topic.
    Lol...    its not off topic at all your statement .............



    "Imbalance is imbalance. However it is achieved."



      ...made it relevent .. along with your horrible example which is completely off topic , as a P2W New School FLaw .. Not Old School Flaw which is what the Topic is about .. No :)

                           this is getting tiresome .

    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,938
    Stat imbalance is as old school as the come with MMOs. P2W is just a new method of achieving an old problem. Oh well. There is no arguing with you because your logic is all over the place. No matter how hard I nail you on any point you say something absolutely absurd and take the argument way off in left field just to keep the argument flowing and avoid admitting I am right.

    The thing is I've pretty much nailed you between the eyes on this argument. Loke was discussing stat imbalance. I am discussing stat imbalance.

    So my statement "[Stat] Imbalance is [Stat] imbalance, no matter how it is achieved." is perfectly on-topic.

    However your argument then goes off and tries to pull in completely different forms of imbalance we aren't even discussing by using the incorrect assumption that my argument authorized that.

    But I think it's obvious to everyone but yourself I've been kicking your butt all over the courtyard for this entire debate. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member EpicPosts: 4,212
    Eldurian said:
    Stat imbalance is as old school as the come with MMOs. P2W is just a new method of achieving an old problem. Oh well. There is no arguing with you because your logic is all over the place. No matter how hard I nail you on any point you say something absolutely absurd and take the argument way off in left field just to keep the argument flowing and avoid admitting I am right.

    The thing is I've pretty much nailed you between the eyes on this argument. Loke was discussing stat imbalance. I am discussing stat imbalance.

    So my statement "[Stat] Imbalance is [Stat] imbalance, no matter how it is achieved." is perfectly on-topic.

    However your argument then goes off and tries to pull in completely different forms of imbalance we aren't even discussing by using the incorrect assumption that my argument authorized that.

    But I think it's obvious to everyone but yourself I've been kicking your butt all over the courtyard for this entire debate. 
    LMFAO ..Pot meet Kettle ...
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,938
    No. You are pretty much the pot and the kettle all to yourself this time. I'm logically explaining my arguments, actually reading what you are saying to understand the context of your statements, and explaining where your arguments have gone astray in their logic.

    You are essentially just trolling and trying to take the argument off topic and ignore the context of my statements so you still have a leg to stand on. Really, that's how pretty much all our debates go but in this one it's just painfully obvious to everyone but yourself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member EpicPosts: 4,212
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    No. You are pretty much the pot and the kettle all to yourself this time. I'm logically explaining my arguments, actually reading what you are saying to understand the context of your statements, and explaining where your arguments have gone astray in their logic.

    You are essentially just trolling and trying to take the argument off topic and ignore the context of my statements so you still have a leg to stand on. Really, that's how pretty much all our debates go but in this one it's just painfully obvious to everyone but yourself.
       Go back and read the entire thread .. I actually dont care .. But you are wrong again ..

             Tell ya what if you think i was derailing and trolling so badly report it...

       I know the result already ...Because its not true to anyone that takes the time to read the thread  Would say that i also layed out valid points in this discussion While you were busy Insulting and managed  to earn yourself a BAn for belittling others and insulting them , Which is pretty much how all your debates go , but in this one it was painfully obvious .. Obvious enough to get you a bAN ..

      With that i have been Bored to Tears with this ...

      Good Day Sir ....
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,938
    edited October 2017
    @Scorchien - Unfortunately lacking any form of coherency in your argument and refusing to listen to logic is not a reportable offence. Using the terms one would use to describe a person who behaves in such a manner apparently is even though several people agreed with those posts before they were deleted.
    Scorchien said:
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    bahh nahh a baseball bat already got me 4 and 1/2 years of my life locked up
    That was very enlightening to learn though. Explains a lot about you. Especially the part where you are seemingly proud of it.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • ScorchienScorchien Member EpicPosts: 4,212
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien - Unfortunately lacking any form of coherency in your argument and refusing to listen to logic is not a reportable offence. Using the terms one would use to describe a person who behaves in such a manner apparently is even though several people agreed with those posts before they were deleted.
    Scorchien said:
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    bahh nahh a baseball bat already got me 4 and 1/2 years of my life locked up
    That was very enlightening to learn though. Explains a lot about you. Especially the part where you are seemingly proud of it.
    Quite proud...

        But like i said ... Let it go man ..

      Good Day Sir ........

     
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 238
    edited October 2017
    Seems a lot of people say first and second generation mmos had too many flaws.

    What problems ?

    - Maybe you need to use the SOCIAL PANEL and ask for friends and groups ?
    - Maybe, you actually have to ask for help now and then ?
    - Maybe you need to join a guild in order to get the materials for crafting ?
    - Maybe you need to use the auction to make money ?
    - Maybe you simply cant achieve something, no matter how hard you try ? 
    - Maybe you need to be social to run dungeons to keep up with gear ?
    - Maybe you had to travel to your destination ?
    - Maybe life in game is not easy all the time ?
    - Maybe specialized classes can't solo ?
    - Maybe you need to study to learn how to do something ? 
    - Maybe you need to play the game "nine months" instead of "two months" if time is a problem ? 

    ****** So, automatic everything is the answer ? ****** 


    I'm not talking about bugs, that's a different topic.
    I agree many of the things people point to aren't flaws, they're just less automatic and/or potentially more tedious or painful. For some players, they're features. For the vast majority of MMORPGs, these things are flaws because most players don't like them.

    I think the more technical something old school is, the more it can be a genuine flaw. Technical things can be mapped out and understood. Non-technical things are like chameleons, they slither and shapeshift. A technical thing might be the frame or canvas or the brush a painter uses. A non-technical might be what he paints, for example a scenery on the countryside or a group of lawmakers in the capital building. You can argue forever about what he paints, but it's easier to come to conclusions about the canvas or framing or the kind or quality of paint used.

    I'll give an example, although this doesn't necessarily represent all old school games. Everquest originally was first-person with no map or GPS system. You had to LOOK and memorize your surroundings. It was very immersive. It gave you the feeling you were in that world and had to be alert. Later on, a map window was added and it showed your location in real-time, as well the location of your group members and your corpse. What I hated about the map was it showed your real-time location. This led to increasingly looking at the map. I'd find myself looking at the map exclusively to get to my group rather than looking at the world. I was playing the UI and mashing buttons. It dawned on me how disconnected that's. In case you think it's jaded glasses or faulty memory, I played Wurm Online in 2012 (and after) and it had no map or gps and minimal UI. I enjoy the s*** out of it!!!! I also played project 1999 in 2010 and 2011. I enjoyed it. So before anybody says I'm just remembering wrong, you're full of yourself. I also quit Everquest 2 after too many quest markers and glowies. It was so in-your-face I finally decided the only way to make a statement is just leave--not argue wastefully in forums.

    There're many other examples of supposed quality of life improvements but which ultimately are not fun at all for me. AS opposed to making the game more convenient and less tedious, I just lose respect for the game and find reasons to quit. End result is this has led me to believe one man's garbage is another man's treasure. These things aren't clear cut issues, they're much more  subjective in nature.

    So before you say "Games need to be fun!" remember "fun" means different things to different gamers. Yes there's a majority audience and it usually has the same understanding of "fun", but don't apply it everybody else.

    So really the best we can hope for is a diverse market. I personally think that's what we have, mostly. I think what gets some of you mad is the niche MMO's aren't AAA. Personally I don't care. There's give and take with everything. Truth be told, I think we're spoiled too. What I see out there sometimes amazes me, and too mnay gamers have no appreciation for it. Makes me want to spit on them.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • GolelornGolelorn Member UncommonPosts: 1,339
    edited October 2017
    There are games out there that are hardcore. I don't understand why you aren't playing them?

    A mega-studio is not going to create a game for a niche market. They are looking to make hundreds of millions. Not a penny less. Blizzard will never make another MMO when it can create these quick, comparatively cheap arena games that crush WoW's revenue even at its height.
    Post edited by Golelorn on
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,663


    So before you say "Games need to be fun!" remember "fun" means different things to different gamers. Yes there's a majority audience and it usually has the same understanding of "fun", but don't apply it everybody else.


    Sure. But i doubt there is a big enough market for "camp the static spawn with 20 groups waiting in line" game play. May be there are some players who still like that. But i won't touch that with a ten foot pole, and i doubt any dev would believe there is enough money for them to touch it.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 238
    edited October 2017


    So before you say "Games need to be fun!" remember "fun" means different things to different gamers. Yes there's a majority audience and it usually has the same understanding of "fun", but don't apply it everybody else.


    Sure. But i doubt there is a big enough market for "camp the static spawn with 20 groups waiting in line" game play. May be there are some players who still like that. But i won't touch that with a ten foot pole, and i doubt any dev would believe there is enough money for them to touch it.
    I didn't say there's a market for it. In my post, I specifically referenced in-game GPS (and glowies). However, I didn't like camping. I did my epic and had to camp some of the drops for HOURS. HOWEVER, some people DID like camping and I won't rule it out as a feature in a game. Just because you don't like something or most players don't like it, doesn't mean it's invalid, sorry but that's reality. It may only be desirable for a handful of players,  but for those handful players it'll be a gift from god.

    This difference between players is reality and it's on display probably right now between you and me. This is not news to me. In the many years I've played games and MMO's, I've seen many kinds of players. It's hard to refrain from arguing, especially when defending your own likes and dislikes, but many times that's exactly what we have to do, or we'll be arguing for the rest of our life.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 4,982
    edited October 2017
    I played Everquest in third person view from the very beginning. I never played in first person view. I would have been nauseous since I cannot play anything in first person view.  It offered several options I think there was a far camera distance look too which people kiting used. The one I used was called over the shoulder.
    Post edited by cheyane on
    image
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member EpicPosts: 6,789
    cheyane said:
    I played Everquest in third person view from the very beginning. I never played in first person view. I would have been nauseous since I cannot play anything in first person view.  It offered several options I think there was a far camera distance look too which people kiting used. The one I used was called over the shoulder.
    Aye I confirm EQ had 3rd person view since day one of release.
    immodium
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  • grailofgamesgrailofgames Member CommonPosts: 6
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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,341
    3rd person view was pretty horrible in EQ if I recall.  It was even worse with the UI taking up the majority of the screen.  First person view is great anyway.  It gives you that fear that something might be sneaking up behind you.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member RarePosts: 27,663
     Just because you don't like something or most players don't like it, doesn't mean it's invalid, sorry but that's reality. It may only be desirable for a handful of players,  but for those handful players it'll be a gift from god.

    No one says it is invalid. In fact, what the hell does "valid" even means in this context. Preference is just that. Some people like it. Some don't. That is the end of it.

    However, God does not make video games. The simple truth is that a feature few likes is not going to be made, unless one of the "likers" (haha is that a word) is a billionaire who is willing to fund the whole thing.

    And on a public forum, it is fair game to state what people dislike (e.g. camping static spawn taking a number in line), right?
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