Old school design flaws... are they real problems !

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  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 21,137
    Scorchien said:
        And if it helps anyone , because you seem to be hung up on Successful , replace it with Popular and/or Endearing
       Umm again .. I said the most Succesful PvP MMOs .. and they were/are ..

      Guildwars is not an MMO ...dismissed example ,,

        ohh thx .. another i forgot about ,, but thx for the Help Lineage was and is not balanced either ..
      Umm again Guildwars is not an MMO , as even stated by the devs ... example dismissed twice

       BS on your Wow projections , nothing was stopping its success at that time .. Nothing

       The rest is insignifigant to the point that ..

      The Most Succesful MMORPG PVP games are/were and with you rHelp ill add Lineage/UO/ACDarktide/War/Shadowbane /Darkfall /Vanilla Wow / ill Add AoC , and Eldurian reminder of Eve

      None of these games have Balance ..

      you know what has Balance GW2 and it fuggin blows because of it ...

      Balance is not good for any MMORPG wanting PVP , Imbalance is needed to cultivate teamwork , community , rivalries and competeitve warfare ..

         The example of a  Vet picking on a Noob is Weak .. its Rarely happens these days and in Most every game its there are systems in place to prevent it.... So a really weak and worthless arguement
    What is the percentage of Wow players that play mainly PvP compared to the ones that mainly PvE? Not very large. Vanilla Wow and DaoC still had limited factioned PvP.

    Lineage is the only game that successfully pulled off FFA PvP and it certainly had a very limited player loot. When I played it you dropped an item every 4 time or so when you were killed. Note that the game did poorly in the west while it still have a couple of million players in the east. Even Lineage have way more focus on pledgewars then FFA PvP though. I do have to admit that I personally liked the PvP in it when I played 16 years ago.

    I can't give you an exact number of how many players that actually only PvE or PvP but the PvE number is many times larger which is funny since in most other genres that have more then 6 players PvP is at least 90% like FPS games.

    And you miss the point of the example, it is not that the noob get killed but that the fight isn't exciting. Whenever a fight is predetermined it isn't fun for most people. As I said before, you don't need perfect balance, just enough to make the fights exciting and most MMOs fail terrible at it.

    Yes, GW was a CORPG and the largest PvP in it was a few 16 Vs 16 maps but it was massively popular at the time. Still is rather popular around here.

    WAR was never successful and got cancelled after a few years. Shadowbane? LOL, it spent most of it's time on life support. The only numbers I heard for Darkfall was 25K players but admit that was long ago. If it had more then 100K I think we would have heard though. AoCs PvP servers were always empty (played a bit on one). Darktide was nowhere near the regular AC popularity.

    I give you DaoC, it was an excellent game but comparing how good it was with player numbers it should have done far better. UO I already mentioned.

    As for Eve, it is a great game and Eldurian explained why itt is so popular as it is.

    Do you actually think MMO PvP is anywhere PvE in popularity?

    There is nothing wrong with being niche, heck, I enjoyed PvPing in some of those games myself but you can make MMO PvP as popular as PvE. In fact if the genre wants to start growing again that is what needs to be done but most MMO mechanics are made for PvE and in player numbers it makes PvE far better.

    I can honestly not say why Mobas are so popular but FPS PvP is popular because it is fun and most FPS games focus on it. If you take the top 10 MMOs almost all of them focus on PvE, particularly the western ones.


    PhryTorval
  • PhryPhry OxfordshireMember EpicPosts: 9,115
    The biggest problem with 'oldschool' games, is probably their graphics, game mechanics evolve over time, but unless the graphics are also 'updated' then its pointless, one of the oldest games out there, yet still able to utilise cutting edge graphics, is Eve Online as CCP is unafraid to update both game engine, graphics/artwork and indeed, they are not one to shie away from 'modernising' the game mechanics so that the game really has been evolving as technology etc. advanced, its something that too few MMO developers are willing to sink time and resources into, if only Blizzard was as willing to work on their game engine and graphics as they are with the game mechanics, you have to wonder how much better the game would be if they had been willing to do so, i can only imagine how much better a game WoW would be if it could stand on equal footing, at least in terms of graphics/artwork as MMO's such as BDO have, if only.
  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKMember LegendaryPosts: 17,270
    Phry said:
    The biggest problem with 'oldschool' games, is probably their graphics, game mechanics evolve over time, but unless the graphics are also 'updated' then its pointless, one of the oldest games out there, yet still able to utilise cutting edge graphics, is Eve Online as CCP is unafraid to update both game engine, graphics/artwork and indeed, they are not one to shie away from 'modernising' the game mechanics so that the game really has been evolving as technology etc. advanced, its something that too few MMO developers are willing to sink time and resources into, if only Blizzard was as willing to work on their game engine and graphics as they are with the game mechanics, you have to wonder how much better the game would be if they had been willing to do so, i can only imagine how much better a game WoW would be if it could stand on equal footing, at least in terms of graphics/artwork as MMO's such as BDO have, if only.


    People quitting a long time game due to graphics - that's a very small % of players - this is not a problem.

    Graphics failing to attract new players - yep that happens, but original players leaving in droves because of old graphics - this is not an issue.

    The #1 reason why people leave MMOs is - boredom - repetitive content, lack of content etc... 
    Players are not loyal to the product like they were back in 1999-2004, the attititude of "well it's got problems but I am in this for the long haul" - that's very rare in majority of players today.

    Majority bails the game at the very first bump they run into with the game - as jumping ship is easy - and there's 100s of other games welcoming you with open arms. So players just hop games like there's no tomorrow - as there's no longer a sub price to make you think "did I get my money's worth?"
    Blaze_RockerSteelhelmHawkaya399
  • delete5230delete5230 Member RarePosts: 4,354
    DMKano said:
    Phry said:
    The biggest problem with 'oldschool' games, is probably their graphics, game mechanics evolve over time, but unless the graphics are also 'updated' then its pointless, one of the oldest games out there, yet still able to utilise cutting edge graphics, is Eve Online as CCP is unafraid to update both game engine, graphics/artwork and indeed, they are not one to shie away from 'modernising' the game mechanics so that the game really has been evolving as technology etc. advanced, its something that too few MMO developers are willing to sink time and resources into, if only Blizzard was as willing to work on their game engine and graphics as they are with the game mechanics, you have to wonder how much better the game would be if they had been willing to do so, i can only imagine how much better a game WoW would be if it could stand on equal footing, at least in terms of graphics/artwork as MMO's such as BDO have, if only.


    People quitting a long time game due to graphics - that's a very small % of players - this is not a problem.

    Graphics failing to attract new players - yep that happens, but original players leaving in droves because of old graphics - this is not an issue.

    The #1 reason why people leave MMOs is - boredom - repetitive content, lack of content etc... 
    Players are not loyal to the product like they were back in 1999-2004, the attititude of "well it's got problems but I am in this for the long haul" - that's very rare in majority of players today.

    Majority bails the game at the very first bump they run into with the game - as jumping ship is easy - and there's 100s of other games welcoming you with open arms. So players just hop games like there's no tomorrow - as there's no longer a sub price to make you think "did I get my money's worth?"

    I agree but with a twist,

    People don't play or quit because of graphics, They may complain but not quit.  They will say they wouldn't play a game because of graphics, but in the end they will if it's popular or like the mechanics. 

    Yes, the #1 reason why people leave mmos is because of boredom, repetitive, and lack of content.  BUT mmos are now just "video games online". 

    And it's easy to get bored of JUST video games.

    Amaranthar
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    edited October 2017
    Loke666 said:
    Scorchien said:
        And if it helps anyone , because you seem to be hung up on Successful , replace it with Popular and/or Endearing
       Umm again .. I said the most Succesful PvP MMOs .. and they were/are ..

      Guildwars is not an MMO ...dismissed example ,,

        ohh thx .. another i forgot about ,, but thx for the Help Lineage was and is not balanced either ..
      Umm again Guildwars is not an MMO , as even stated by the devs ... example dismissed twice

       BS on your Wow projections , nothing was stopping its success at that time .. Nothing

       The rest is insignifigant to the point that ..

      The Most Succesful MMORPG PVP games are/were and with you rHelp ill add Lineage/UO/ACDarktide/War/Shadowbane /Darkfall /Vanilla Wow / ill Add AoC , and Eldurian reminder of Eve

      None of these games have Balance ..

      you know what has Balance GW2 and it fuggin blows because of it ...

      Balance is not good for any MMORPG wanting PVP , Imbalance is needed to cultivate teamwork , community , rivalries and competeitve warfare ..

         The example of a  Vet picking on a Noob is Weak .. its Rarely happens these days and in Most every game its there are systems in place to prevent it.... So a really weak and worthless arguement
    What is the percentage of Wow players that play mainly PvP compared to the ones that mainly PvE? Not very large. Vanilla Wow and DaoC still had limited factioned PvP.

    Lineage is the only game that successfully pulled off FFA PvP and it certainly had a very limited player loot. When I played it you dropped an item every 4 time or so when you were killed. Note that the game did poorly in the west while it still have a couple of million players in the east. Even Lineage have way more focus on pledgewars then FFA PvP though. I do have to admit that I personally liked the PvP in it when I played 16 years ago.

    I can't give you an exact number of how many players that actually only PvE or PvP but the PvE number is many times larger which is funny since in most other genres that have more then 6 players PvP is at least 90% like FPS games.

    And you miss the point of the example, it is not that the noob get killed but that the fight isn't exciting. Whenever a fight is predetermined it isn't fun for most people. As I said before, you don't need perfect balance, just enough to make the fights exciting and most MMOs fail terrible at it.

    Yes, GW was a CORPG and the largest PvP in it was a few 16 Vs 16 maps but it was massively popular at the time. Still is rather popular around here.

    WAR was never successful and got cancelled after a few years. Shadowbane? LOL, it spent most of it's time on life support. The only numbers I heard for Darkfall was 25K players but admit that was long ago. If it had more then 100K I think we would have heard though. AoCs PvP servers were always empty (played a bit on one). Darktide was nowhere near the regular AC popularity.

    I give you DaoC, it was an excellent game but comparing how good it was with player numbers it should have done far better. UO I already mentioned.

    As for Eve, it is a great game and Eldurian explained why itt is so popular as it is.

    Do you actually think MMO PvP is anywhere PvE in popularity?

    There is nothing wrong with being niche, heck, I enjoyed PvPing in some of those games myself but you can make MMO PvP as popular as PvE. In fact if the genre wants to start growing again that is what needs to be done but most MMO mechanics are made for PvE and in player numbers it makes PvE far better.

    I can honestly not say why Mobas are so popular but FPS PvP is popular because it is fun and most FPS games focus on it. If you take the top 10 MMOs almost all of them focus on PvE, particularly the western ones.


    An entire wall of text to move the goal posts ..

      Listen the point being discussed was balance in MMORPG PvP ..

       Each and every one of those games was not Balanced yet are thought of as the best most well thought of PVP in the genre ..

      DArktide was the most Popular AC server for many year s..

      GW is not in this equation .. as its not an MMO ... its a coop/Multi player Arena based game .. Ask the Devs they will tell you ..

               I played War to RR 93 and still play today , it was more fun RvR than DAoC imo .. Scenarios killed it ..

        But again back on point .. Balance is waht makes PvP in this Genre terrible ..

      And all your drivel does not change the fact that .. it was the Unbalance that made any of these examples Popular

      Now give me an example of a Balanced PVP MMORPG that does it well .. Balance does not work in this genre..

      Player numbers and Financial success is not waht is being discussed and what you seem to think I meant by success i tried to clear that up for you by replacing Success with Popular/Endearing... If you want to discuss Financial Sucess and player numbers we can in another thread , its not relevant to this point ...
    Eldurian said:
    Scorchien said:
    Eldurian said:
    Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
    talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..

      Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey .. 
    Eldurian said:
    EVE is not balanced but it's by far the most balanced, and by far the most successful.
    Eldurian said:
    And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    Eldurian said:
    Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
    I've been very consistent. Sorry if you are too thick to understand the plain statement I've made three times now and never deviated from at all.
    Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced  of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..

      You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..

         "EVE is not balanced "

         ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance  that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...

     
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    edited October 2017
     This recent thread touches on it again .. read thru it and you can see peoples thoughts on the Most Popular/Endeared MMMORPG PvP we have had .. It reinforces my point and the list itself does ...As all the games are Imbalanced accept for Gw2

    http://www.mmorpg.com/columns/the-10-best-pvp-mmos-of-all-time-1000012080/page/2

      But the thing that all the others share is Imbalance and why they were liked as it cultivated teamwork and community ..

      GW2 is a perfect example of Balance as solo players attach themselves to a TAg and form a BLOB and participate in a perfectly balanced Blob Ballet of who can dump out the most AOE and which Blob will step in it first ..  


              GW2 does not belong on the list imo and ITS balance is why Most Hardcore PvP guilds left Looong agao and why its attempts at E-Sport failed miserably .. Balance kills .. Its only popularity is the attraction to the casuals .. its WvW is a complete joke ....


    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,930
    edited October 2017
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Eldurian said:
    Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
    talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..

      Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey .. 
    Eldurian said:
    EVE is not balanced but it's by far the most balanced, and by far the most successful.
    Eldurian said:
    And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    Eldurian said:
    Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
    I've been very consistent. Sorry if you are too thick to understand the plain statement I've made three times now and never deviated from at all.
    Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced  of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..

      You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..

         "EVE is not balanced "

         ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance  that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...

     
    Yeah I see this is a difficult concept for you so I'll help you out.

    Illustration 1:



    Illustration 2:



    Illustration 3:



    The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight.

    These are not contradictory statements. These are statements anyone who has a proper graps of the English language should be able to figure out.

    In WoW etc. if a character that is towards the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters, the day old characters will lose without question. WoW is the yarn. There is no balance whatsoever.

    In Darkfall if a character toward the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters it will be simple for them to bunny-hop away and survive the fight, but they could potentially lose against greater numbers if they stood and fought. It would likely take dozens or hundreds but it's theoretically possible. Darkfall is the Boomerang.

    In EVE some of the most expensive ships in the game can easily be taken down by a handful of day old characters in cheap ships. But they still have quite the advantage in a 1 on 1 basis. Eve is the slightly bent stick.

    Eve is not balanced. Eve is the most balanced.

    Sorry if you are finding this concept difficult to grasp because it really shouldn't be hard at all.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    Eldurian said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Eldurian said:
    Find me a single other MMO where a handful of new players in crap gear can fairly easily take out a well geared vet. And then on top of that, the vet losses their gear. You may not think PvP should be balanced around it but they did balance it better than any other game. Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
    talk about strawman , you are being ridiculous ,make up your mind .. is it Imbalanced or balanced or the most balanced ... wee its everything ..

      Its not Balanced period .. Stop trying to color it grey .. 
    Eldurian said:
    EVE is not balanced but it's by far the most balanced, and by far the most successful.
    Eldurian said:
    And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    Eldurian said:
    Which is what makes it the most balanced game.
    I've been very consistent. Sorry if you are too thick to understand the plain statement I've made three times now and never deviated from at all.
    Eve is not Balanced at all .. iTs like saying the Cleavland Browns are the best most balanced  of the 0-5 teams in the NFL ..

      You havent been consistent .. Sorry if you dont remember what you wrote here ..

         "EVE is not balanced "

         ANd again saying its the MOST balanced is a joke when you know its not Balanced .. MOBAS are balanced , FPS are Balanced .. Eve is in no way balanced .. its the Imbalance  that makes/made any of these games popular for there PvP ...

     
    Yeah I see this is a difficult concept for you so I'll help you out.

    Illustration 1:



    Illustration 2:



    Illustration 3:



    The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight.

    These are not contradictory statements. These are statements anyone who has a proper graps of the English language should be able to figure out.

    In WoW etc. if a character that is towards the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters, the day old characters will lose without question. WoW is the yarn. There is no balance whatsoever.

    In Darkfall if a character toward the end of their level and gear progression goes against any number of day old characters it will be simple for them to bunny-hop away and survive the fight, but they could potentially lose against greater numbers if they stood and fought. It would likely take dozens or hundreds but it's theoretically possible. Darkfall is the Boomerang.

    In EVE some of the most expensive ships in the game can easily be taken down by a handful of day old characters in cheap ships. But they still have quite the advantage in a 1 on 1 basis. Eve is the slightly bent stick.

    Eve is not balanced. Eve is the most balanced.

    Sorry if you are finding this concept difficult to grasp because it really shouldn't be hard at all.
    Eve is not balanced , anyone who plays it knows that , all your walls and pictures trying to call it The Most balanced is weak , Your extreme examples only prove you are wrong as you can only attempt to make a point by reaching for the Extreme .. All the MMORPGs
     listed are unbalanced PvP ...

      Your completly loosely interpatated .. Its the most Balanced falls flat on its face over and over .. And your constant passive/aggresive attempts at insult are immature and further shows you have no point to make ...


      All those MMORPG games once again are not balanced PvP , and all of them are thought of the most endearing and memorable experiencesd that the community has had for PvP in the genre

           Now we can start some more weak appraoches as

     Which is the Most endearing

    Which is the Most memorable

        See how silly that sounds
    Steelhelm
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,930
    edited October 2017
    No the point is I'm explaining concepts to you that an elementary schooler should be able to grasp, but you won't because you have a driving need to win this argument now matter how ridiculous you have to make yourself look in the process.

    Pretty sure everyone here understands statements like:

    Teal is not blue. Teal is the most blue when compared to red and yellow.

    The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight when compared to the yarn and boomerang. 

    An average size man is not tall. The average man is the most tall when compared to a midget and a child.

    EVE is not balanced. EVE is the most balanced when compared to other MMOs.

    I don't think anyone here needs me to explain these Seasame Street level concepts to them but you. Nobody would say these are contradictory statements but you. Maybe they might disagree with my definition of balance, and therefore disagree my logic is sound, but only you would sit there and try to say my logic isn't valid. So obviously if you don't get it by now I'm wasting my time.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    Steelhelm
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    No the point is I'm explaining concepts to you that an elementary schooler should be able to grasp, but you won't because you have a driving need to win this argument now matter how ridiculous you have to make yourself look in the process.

    Pretty sure everyone here understands statements like:

    Teal is not blue. Teal is the most blue when compared to red and yellow.

    The stick is not straight. The stick is the most straight when compared to the yarn and boomerang. 

    An average size man is not tall. The average man is the most tall when compared to a midget and a child.

    EVE is not balanced. EVE is the most balanced when compared to other MMOs.

    I don't think anyone here needs me to explain these Seasame Street level concepts to them but you. Nobody would say this are contradictory statements but you. So obviously if you don't get it by now I'm wasting my time.
    Your further attempts at passive/aggresive insults have been reported ..

        Have a nice day

     ohh .. and Eve is not Balanced PvP .... saying its the Most balanced does not make it balanced ..

     its like having to go do some time , in  Miniumum , Medium , Maximum , or High security prison ..

          And saying well Mininmum is the Most Tolerable .. There all prisons and the PvP is not Balanced in any of them .. but in Minimum its the Most Balanced .. Just stupid semantics ..
    Post edited by Scorchien on
    Steelhelm
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,930
    edited October 2017
    The point isn't that it is balanced. The point is that it is the most balanced PvP MMO, and therefore the most popular PvP MMO.

    Your point is all the most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good.

    My point is that no PvP MMO is balanced, and no PvP MMO is as popular as either balanced PvP games (MOBAs, FPS etc.) or PvE games.

    But the most popular PvP MMO is the most balanced.

    Therefore the pattern established is that more balance means more popularity when it comes to PvP games, MMOs included.

    It does not have to perfectly balanced to support my conclusion given that no MMO is.

    ____________

    Your argument's flaw is that there is no basis of comparison. In order to say 

    "The most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good."

    You have to have something to compare it to. If there were a single balanced PvP MMO which was not the most popular that would give some level of comparison to support your argument (Though in that case I would argue there is not enough data to support your conclusion.) If there were 25 balanced PvP MMOs and 25 unbalanced PvP MMOs and the unbalanced ones were overwhelmingly more popular then I would say you've offered strong data to support your conclusion.

    But what your argument essentially is observing a tribe where every man is dirty but the most clean of them is the most popular among the women and saying "Women prefer dirty men because all the most popular men are dirty."

    Where I would argue "Women prefer clean men because the most clean man is the most popular."
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    Eldurian said:
    The point isn't that it is balanced. The point is that it is the most balanced PvP MMO, and therefore the most popular PvP MMO.

    Your point is all the most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good.

    My point is that no PvP MMO is balanced, and no PvP MMO is as popular as either balanced PvP games (MOBAs, FPS etc.) or PvE games.

    But the most popular PvP MMO is the most balanced.

    Therefore the pattern established is that more balance means more popularity when it comes to PvP games, MMOs included.

    It does not have to perfectly balanced to support my conclusion given that no MMO is.

    ____________

    Your argument's flaw is that there is no basis of comparison. In order to say 

    "The most popular PvP MMOs are unbalanced therefore unbalance is good."

    You have to have something to compare it to. If there were a single balanced PvP MMO which was not the most popular that would give some level of comparison to support your argument (Though in that case I would argue there is not enough data to support your conclusion.) If there were 25 balanced PvP MMOs and 25 unbalanced PvP MMOs and the unbalanced ones were overwhelmingly more popular then I would say you've offered strong data to support your conclusion.

    But what your argument essentially is observing a tribe where every man is dirty but the most clean of them is the most popular among the women and saying "Women prefer dirty men because all the most popular men are dirty."

    Where I would argue "Women prefer clean men because the most clean man is the most popular."
    more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
  • Loke666Loke666 KalmarMember EpicPosts: 21,137
    Scorchien said:"
    more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
    You are missing the point here. It is not exact balanced needed, just enough low powergap to make all combat exciting.

    My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.

    Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
    EldurianConstantineMerusSteelhelm
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,318
    I remember playing World of Warcraft for a year straight.  I knew everyone on the server. 

    I remember this girl that was always on.  She had a dynamic personality and very social, never ventured from the city unless it was a major exciting group event. but she never seemed to level up....... You know what ?....... She was having fun her own way..... I miss her ! 

    TRY THIS ON A MEGA SERVER :)
    Was she a Night Elf residing on the 2nd floor of the Goldshire Inn?
    Steelhelm

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    Eldurian said:
    See. This is why I insult you. I use logic to explain my arguments. And you sit there, stick your fingers in your ears and yell:

    "NUH UH!" super loudly. Supporting it with the same old logic (or lack thereof) that I've already explained the shortcomings of. You don't even attempt to refute my logic or explain your reasoning on any kind of semi-intellectual level.

    I treat you like a child because you act like one. Maybe if you engage in reasonable discussion and start trying to use critical thinking, like an adult, I can treat you as an adult.
    More insults very good ..

       your problem is you are Using Most balanced .. Its trivial in the scope of the game and the PVP encounters ...

                 Eve is built imbalanced and almost all encounters are imbalanced when they occur .. Like i said earlier in this thread .. When it weas attempeted to explain to you ..


    "over 80% of PvP in Eve is premeditated outright Murder , not a fight .. Most fights players engage in are fights they Know they can win and they run from everything else . If you find yourself in a 'fair fight' with equal numbers, odds are very likely someone has made a horrible (or funny) mistake."

      Its the Imbalance they look for and MOST encounters in Eve are Imabalanced and very intentionally developed the game world that way ..

      This is intentional and the way the Devs want it , And the way that over 85% of PvP encounters play out in Eve..  The other 13% would be larger scale ..

     Leaving this miniscule , trivial , extreme example that you use to make your point .. But it seems that all the threads you get involved devolve into meaningless semantics for you to make a point ..

      That and your backhanded weak insults that are in every thread you get involved in ...
     

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember EpicPosts: 1,432
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    delete5230Hawkaya399
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    Drop the act you two. It is obvious you love each other. Get a room and we done with it. Or a baseball bat. Both equally romantic options. 
    bahh nahh a baseball bat already got me 4 and 1/2 years of my life locked up
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,930
    edited October 2017
    @Scorchien

    Given the person you were responding to agreed with this comment:
    Eldurian said:
    Very few people in MMOs care about equal numbers vs. equal numbers (except as an excuse occasionally offered for losing before they go zerg someone else) and just because you throw that strawman up and pretend that's what they mean by balance doesn't mean they actually give half a crap about it.

    What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.

    And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    It's kind of proven at this point that I'm talking about the type of balance that was actually being discussed (New Player vs Veteran Player stat gap) and you are getting way off topic with this idea that every engagement has to have equal number and all that nonsense.

    EVE is the most balanced PvP MMO when it comes to the type of balance we're discussing here. If you want to get off on semantics about other types of balance then that's your deal but it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
    Steelhelm
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien

    Given the person you were responding to agreed with this comment:
    Eldurian said:
    Very few people in MMOs care about equal numbers vs. equal numbers (except as an excuse occasionally offered for losing before they go zerg someone else) and just because you throw that strawman up and pretend that's what they mean by balance doesn't mean they actually give half a crap about it.

    What people are talking about 99% of the time when they are discussing how horribly imbalanced MMO PvP is, is how you can walk up to a newb on a veteran character and slap them around while they are powerless to resist. That is the imbalance people care about.

    And that is the imbalance that EVE has clearly addressed when swarms of newbs in ships worth like 2 mil a pop are taking out multi-hundred million ISK ships flown by veteran characters. And that is why EVE is the most balanced, and the most successful.
    It's kind of proven at this point that I'm talking about the type of balance that was actually being discussed (New Player vs Veteran Player stat gap) and you are getting way off topic with this idea that every engagement has to have equal number and all that nonsense.

    EVE is the most balanced PvP MMO when it comes to the type of balance we're discussing here. If you want to get off on semantics about other types of balance then that's your deal but it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having here.
    lol again when is that .. This amazing almost never happens miraculous battle of 50 noobs vs 1 vet .. LMFAO .. get a grip on yourself .. Your entire arguement is not relevant as it almost never happens , i dont know if it ever has happened or anything even close to it .. Just because you dream up this amazing sceanrio that makes Eve the Most Balanced in your head , because it could possibly maybe occur. Doesnt make it true .. Whats true is that almost all encounters in Eve are very imbalanced by design ..

      Nearly all encounters in Eve , involve players cruising around looking for players with builds they Know they can beat ... Solo and Small group ... Thats how it is , and most fights are very imbalanced

     But you keep telling your self , its Most Balnced , just because of the ridiculous sceanrio you paint that may have never occured in the history of Eve..

      Most players Know they are going to  win before they even engage ...and that applys to most encounters..
    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,930
    edited October 2017
    Ok. If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced numbers and forms of imbalance that come from player relations and tactics are not a problem in PvP MMOs. These are what people expect from Open World PvP and why they engage in it."

    Then I am in 100% in agreeance with you. We have nothing to argue about.

    If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced stats between veteran and newbs is not a problem and is not hurting the viability of PvP focused MMOs."

    Then I am in 100% disagreement with you, and would say that is the number one factor throttling PvP in MMOs by a factor of manyfold.

    Where does it come into play?

    If I join an MMO in which I would rather be PvPing than PvEing and say "Nah, I'm not going to go PvP yet, I need to level / get better gear first." Then it is a factor that has come into play. And that is a decision people make in MMOs all the damn time.

    But in EVE I often say "Ok. I'll come along in my cheap destroyer/frigate" because I know in EVE my presence makes a difference. Because it's the most balanced MMO when it comes to the type of balance that is actually being discussed and debated.

    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    Eldurian said:
    Ok. If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced numbers and forms of imbalance that come from player relations and tactics are not a problem in PvP MMOs. These are what people expect from Open World PvP and why they engage in it."

    Then I am in 100% in agreeance with you. We have nothing to argue about.

    If your statement is:

    "Unbalanced stats between veteran and newbs is not a problem and is not hurting the viability of PvP focused MMOs."

    Then I am in 100% disagreement with you, and would say that is the number one factor throttling PvP in MMOs by a factor of manyfold.

    Where does it come into play?

    If I join an MMO in which I would rather be PvPing than PvEing and say "Nah, I'm not going to go PvP yet, I need to level / get better gear first." Then it is a factor that has come into play. And that is a decision people make in MMOs all the damn time.

    But in EVE I often say "Ok. I'll come along in my cheap destroyer/frigate" because I know in EVE my presence makes a difference. Because it's the most balanced MMO when it comes to the type of balance that is actually being discussed and debated.

      Listen man , i agree and stand by your first statement ..

     The second statement is not relevant to me , in todays games that can barely happen , matter a fact most games have systems in place to prevent it now , So it doesnt matter to me .. And i honestly think the entire thought behind that was always  way over blown ..

      And i been doing this since UO launch day , in every single game discussed here to end game encounters .. Ill add ive seen your last statement play out realtive to Eve play out in every other game in this thread .. ANd its a decision that people make in MMOs all the dam time .. And guess what when they make that decision they know dam well they are walking/flying/riding into an encounter Unbalanced to them
  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioMember UncommonPosts: 2,973
    Loke666 said:
    Scorchien said:"
    more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
    You are missing the point here. It is not exact balanced needed, just enough low powergap to make all combat exciting.

    My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.

    Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
    I agree with your comments, and many others here, only in a PvP centric MMO.
    The problem is that if you want a great MMO, you need a lot of buyers. And if you want a lot buyers, you need the masses of players who don't want a PvP centric MMO world.

    The basic fact is that pinatas get tired of being pinatas.

    If you all PvPers ever want a great MMO that includes your open world PvP, you have to give up the freedom to PK all the time for no other reason than for the sake of PvP as you want it.
    It's that simple.
    I proposed an idea farther up the thread, and it's been ignored.
    It would have given you open world PvP anywhere, based on in-game reasons.
    It would allow crime, but with punishment if caught.
    It would satisfy non-PvPers and give them in-game justice.
    It would allow for all players to have their own kind of fun (assuming the game is great), and play in one game world together.

    But NOOOoooo, you all just blow it off, just as you always have done. And the result is as it always was, predictable.
    _No one_ gets a great, world full of life and excitement, MMO.

    You, Loke666, are one of the few exceptions, I know that. I'm speaking to the gaming community at large here.

    ( I look forward to being ignored again. /snark off. )
    ( For the love of all that's holey < not a typo...  )

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    edited October 2017
    Loke666 said:
    Scorchien said:"
    more useless semantics .. its not balanced ... FPS and MOBAs are Balanced PvP Eve and all the other games listed are not ./..../end
    You are missing the point here. It is not exact balanced needed, just enough low powergap to make all combat exciting.

    My lvl 100 character fighting 50 lvl 1s with zero chance of losing to them is not exciting or fun for anyone. That is why "successful" games like Shadowbane failed.

    Eve though is different, you don't want to fight 50 noobs in your fancy ship there unless you are prepared to loose it, which makes Eve way more fun.
      Nobody is missing any point here , When has anything even remotley close to your examples ever happened ..

                 It hasnt .............ever ................so its not a point ..
    And you cant ask developers to start dedicating resources to Balance content to this Mythical occurrence you speak of ..

        Where is this Legendary Vet piling up 100s of bloodied noobs at his feet .. Where did this occur , I mean such an event must be recorded somewhere ..


              

    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 1,930
    edited October 2017
    @Scorchien

    Some games do have systems in place to prevent or reduce more powerful characters. A lot certainly don't and PvP that happens between players with massive state gaps happens all the time. Crap like this isn't even uncommon in ArcheAge for instance. It's the majority of the PvP that happens.

    But beyond that, like I said. It's the issue of people deciding not to PvP because they need to address the disparity first. Actual incidents involving vets vs. newbs make PvP suck for the newbs. The need to grind so that they won't be on the low end of a power disparity before they can get involved in PvP enjoyable makes it so that PvP never happens in the first place.

    So lets do a low estimate and say only 25% of PvP takes place in situations which power disparities adversely affect it. (I'd say a lot more because for instance ArcheAge I'd say thats about 80% of the PvP that actually happens, but lets just pretend most games are better at dealing with it.) I'd say for every person out there actually PvPing, there are probably 2 or 3 people who would like to PvP but are grinding instead because they want to address the stat disparity and 5 or 6 people who just opted to go with a MOBA instead because they don't have to deal with that crap there.

    So maybe it's only ruining 25% of PvP in the game, but if 2/3rds of the population are sticking to safer areas to grind and 2 out of 3 people are opting for PvP games that are actually balanced then that's roughly 92% of potential PvP that:

    A. Isn't happening at all because of power disparity.
    B. Is being ruined by power disparity.

    And 8% of PvP that is both happening and being enjoyed by characters that have competitive stats.

    That is why PvP MMOs are one of the most niche genres ever despite PvP games being insanely popular.
    Post edited by Eldurian on
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember EpicPosts: 4,201
    edited October 2017
    Eldurian said:
    @Scorchien

    Some games do have systems in place to prevent or reduce more powerful characters. A lot certainly don't and PvP that happens between players with massive state gaps happens all the time. Crap like this isn't even uncommon in ArcheAge for instance. It's the majority of the PvP that happens.

    But beyond that, like I said. It's the issue of people deciding not to PvP because they need to address the disparity first. Actual incidents involving vets vs. newbs make PvP suck for the newbs. The need to grind so that they won't be on the low end of a power disparity before they can get involved in PvP enjoyable makes it so that PvP never happens in the first place.

    So lets do a low estimate and say only 25% of PvP takes place in situations which power disparities adversely affect it. (I'd say a lot more because for instance ArcheAge I'd say thats about 80% of the PvP that actually happens, but lets just pretend most games are better at dealing with it.) I'd say for every person out there actually PvPing, there are probably 2 or 3 people who would like to PvP but are grinding instead because they want to address the stat disparity and 5 or 6 people who just opted to go with a MOBA instead because they don't have to deal with that crap there.

    So maybe it's only ruining 25% of PvP in the game, but if 2/3rds of the population are sticking to safer areas to grind and 2 out of 3 people are opting for PvP games that are actually balanced then that's roughly 92% of potential PvP that:

    A. Isn't happening at all because of power disparity.
    B. Is being ruined by power disparity.

    And 8% of PvP that is both happening and being enjoyed by characters that have competitive stats.

    That is why PvP MMOs are one of the most niche genres ever despite PvP games being insanely popular.
    Cmon man , thats a terrible example , the guy is a famous P2W player . ( P2W is another problem altogether ) and NONE of the people he is fighting is a N00b , they are Lvl 50 in a known PVP zone ...Matter a fact he even tells ya thats why hes winning .. That power Gap is caused by P2W mechainics /period .. And AA is intentionally built that way for the whales that want to stroke themselves ..

      Now if you want to say that P2W causes power gaps that ruin PvP ill agree .. But thats another subject than the one we were discusiing relative to the title "Old School Design Flaws"..Thats a new school Design FLaw :)

       So again im not buying into that .. Everyone of those players was perfectly aware of who they were fighting and the Imbalance caused by the Cash SHOP .. But they engagaed anyway .. They didnt have to, I have 3 toons at max lvl in AA highest with 3650 Gear Score .. I know exactly whats involved ..(My 3650 toon is an Outrider and i actully made that class relevant .. Very hard class to learn , but fun as hell if you do ..)  sidenote

      There were MANY options avavible for them for PVP if they chose where they could find better odds .. Instead of messing with one of the Biggest Whales in AA..

      ANd another note any player that goes into AA , and researeched it for 10 minutes before the Purchase would learn what its about .. If you then click purchase .. lvl up and head into LvL 50 full PvP zones and get ganked by whales , You have no grounds to whine about it ... You know what you walked into ..

      If someone didnt research hit purchase and are in shock and awe after they hit 50 and hit the PvP end game .. that person is an idiot and deserves what they get ...
    Post edited by Scorchien on
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