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No Announcements at Blizzcon but 'We're Hard at Work on the Future of Diablo' - Diablo 3 - MMORPG.co

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,009
    edited September 2017
    Torval said:
    Running GRifts are the endgame activity. You can run Rifts before that, but not GRifts. But the whole annoyance and repetition comes from end game.

    Progression to 70 isn't a joke if you rebirth for seasonal and don't twink your gold and Paragon Points. Getting to 70 isn't any more of a joke than leveling in Grim Dawn or TL2 on easy mode.

    I still don't see an ARPG with a better system at end game or what would be a better system. 
    It is a joke even for seasonal. I've leveled to 70 in a night in seasonal. But what's even more insane is just asking a buddy or two to power level you in an hour or two. Grim dawn can take 50 hours to complete with a new character. PoE takes a very long time and the game itself actually forces challenge on the player.

    Those other games have very different difficulty systems. PoE for one forces the challenge on the player as you get further and further. Diablo is the opposite of that. Part of the replayability of those other games is trying out new builds and running through the game multiple times with different characters. They are fundamentally different systems and my specific issue with Diablo 3 is that it "incentivizes doing the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time."
    Gdemami
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Torval said:
    Running GRifts are the endgame activity. You can run Rifts before that, but not GRifts. But the whole annoyance and repetition comes from end game.

    Progression to 70 isn't a joke if you rebirth for seasonal and don't twink your gold and Paragon Points. Getting to 70 isn't any more of a joke than leveling in Grim Dawn or TL2 on easy mode.

    I still don't see an ARPG with a better system at end game or what would be a better system. 
    It is a joke even for seasonal. I've leveled to 70 in a night in seasonal. But what's even more insane is just asking a buddy or two to power level you in an hour or two. Grim dawn can take 50 hours to complete with a new character. PoE takes a very long time and the game itself actually forces challenge on the player.

    Those other games have very different difficulty systems. PoE for one forces the challenge on the player as you get further and further. Diablo is the opposite of that. Part of the replayability of those other games is trying out new builds and running through the game multiple times with different characters. They are fundamentally different systems and my specific issue with Diablo 3 is that it "incentivizes doing the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time."

    You mean like these:
    https://www.speedrun.com/gd
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdawn/comments/654rln/grim_dawn_speedrun_normal_any_world_record_58min/

    Or these:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/4a9nrs/how_do_people_level_so_damn_fast/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/58sua8/speed_leveling_for_a_beginner/

    It looks like both those games not only don't force difficulty and challenge but there are guides and builds to easily speedlevel to cap in a day if you're a newbie and in an hour or two if you're experienced. There are YouTube videos in the first r/pathofexile that show the speed runs.

    I feel like you're comparing the easiest options in D3 with the slowest and most involved options in the other games. Different people have different skill levels. What one person finds a joke another person can't even complete. That's why ARPGs and my single player RPGs have offered various modes, including an easy mode.

    I'm not buying that D3 somehow offers less challenge or that GD, Path of Exile, or any other ARPG has a less repetitious or more interesting end game. I can understand finding Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, and other ARPGs more interesting. That's a matter of taste, but better built, more challenging, and better end game I don't buy at all.
    ConstantineMerus
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,786
    "hard at work"..haha good one.

    The very little work i have seen gone into the entire Diablo series is pathetic.
    I bought into Diablo 3 on  whim,i figured Blizzard made so much money from the franchise they would finally get it together and put in some effort.Instead it is just more of the same old spam killing with no reason for a login screen what so ever.
    I'll make a prediction,seeing what has been done in recent games by Blizzard,i will expect to see more direction towards cash shop sales.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,009
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    Running GRifts are the endgame activity. You can run Rifts before that, but not GRifts. But the whole annoyance and repetition comes from end game.

    Progression to 70 isn't a joke if you rebirth for seasonal and don't twink your gold and Paragon Points. Getting to 70 isn't any more of a joke than leveling in Grim Dawn or TL2 on easy mode.

    I still don't see an ARPG with a better system at end game or what would be a better system. 
    It is a joke even for seasonal. I've leveled to 70 in a night in seasonal. But what's even more insane is just asking a buddy or two to power level you in an hour or two. Grim dawn can take 50 hours to complete with a new character. PoE takes a very long time and the game itself actually forces challenge on the player.

    Those other games have very different difficulty systems. PoE for one forces the challenge on the player as you get further and further. Diablo is the opposite of that. Part of the replayability of those other games is trying out new builds and running through the game multiple times with different characters. They are fundamentally different systems and my specific issue with Diablo 3 is that it "incentivizes doing the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time."

    You mean like these:
    https://www.speedrun.com/gd
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Grimdawn/comments/654rln/grim_dawn_speedrun_normal_any_world_record_58min/

    Or these:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/4a9nrs/how_do_people_level_so_damn_fast/
    https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/58sua8/speed_leveling_for_a_beginner/

    It looks like both those games not only don't force difficulty and challenge but there are guides and builds to easily speedlevel to cap in a day if you're a newbie and in an hour or two if you're experienced. There are YouTube videos in the first r/pathofexile that show the speed runs.

    I feel like you're comparing the easiest options in D3 with the slowest and most involved options in the other games. Different people have different skill levels. What one person finds a joke another person can't even complete. That's why ARPGs and my single player RPGs have offered various modes, including an easy mode.

    I'm not buying that D3 somehow offers less challenge or that GD, Path of Exile, or any other ARPG has a less repetitious or more interesting end game. I can understand finding Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, and other ARPGs more interesting. That's a matter of taste, but better built, more challenging, and better end game I don't buy at all.
    I know you're not buying the difficulty thing. Let me put it this way then.

    First, I was never talking about "end game." That was something you brought up. In fact, the difficulty system in Diablo is equally obnoxious to me throughout the regular game. I was only trying to get you to understand how fundamentally different the games you are discussing are after it seemed you didn't understand.

    So, lets talk PoE first. In Diablo, when you get to Belial and die on him on say, torment 1, you can simply go into the options and change the difficulty to make it easier. Not only that, but you can expect the exact same drop rate (but a bit less xp). In PoE, if you run into something you can't beat, you can't just back out and change the difficulty. You MUST beat that thing in front of you as is (assuming it's a boss). If you really can't beat that thing in front of you, you have to farm stuff. That is very different than Diablo 3. And once again, "My specific issue with Diablo 3 is that it incentivizes doing the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time."

    Lets talk Grim Dawn. In Grim Dawn, you start only being able to do normal with veteran checked as the max difficulty. You must play the game like that until you beat it. It has 2 further difficulty levels. Like Diablo 2, one you beat the first one, you can go to the next one. I think it's called "elite." Like in PoE, if you can't beat something in front of you, you can't just change the difficulty. You have to go back and shore up your character. In Diablo, that is not true.

    But fundamentally, the fact that in Diablo you are incentivized to do the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time, including while you level regular levels, just bothers me. I'm surprised you don't see the difference.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    I know you weren't specifically referring to end game, but that is where the difficulty discussion is at with ARPGs. Nothing about leveling in an ARPG is hard, tedious maybe if you have to keep rerolling (unless you just read another cookie cutter and go with that), but not challenging. That's why challenge discussions below level cap are pointless except for comparing speed leveling run times.

    In Diablo 3 you have to beat a difficulty level before ramping it up to the next difficulty level. Not all difficulty levels have the same loot tables. I think beating a difficulty level opens up the next couple beyond that so it's not an every level thing. You can skip ahead in challenge levels if you have the skill and want to try that.

    In D3 when you can't beat Belial, say your on T10, you can bump it down 1 level to T9, just one or you have to leave the game and restart that mission all over again. If you can't kill whatever at that difficulty then you'll never unlock the next tier off difficulty and can't gain those loot tables or rates. So in order to defeat Belial and get the rewards then you need grind out your gear, gems, and extras until your build is solid enough to take on that challenge.

    Every D3 season has a list of objectives and meta rewards (titles, pets, fluff, whatever). The first few tiers are things most players of any skill level can eventually conquer, but beyond that there are some pretty difficult (and grindy) goals. I've yet to see anyone here conquer that for all their talk.

    Anyone here knocked out Conqueror or Gaurdian?
    https://d3resource.com/journey/
    https://d3resource.com/seasons/

    In Grim Dawn you can lower the difficulty of Veteran down to Normal by exiting to the main menu. You could also invite a friend to help you.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,009
    Torval said:

    In Diablo 3 you have to beat a difficulty level before ramping it up to the next difficulty level. Not all difficulty levels have the same loot tables. 
    You just don't know how Diablo 3 works. That is a problem if we are going to talk about it at all.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Torval said:

    In Diablo 3 you have to beat a difficulty level before ramping it up to the next difficulty level. Not all difficulty levels have the same loot tables. 
    You just don't know how Diablo 3 works. That is a problem if we are going to talk about it at all.

    Sorry I was mixing up T and GR levels. Ther'e's no need  to resort to condescension and snarky comments to prop up your own view.

    That still doesn't matter or invalidate anything I said. Torment levels have different loot tables and rates of loot. You can't get the same loot on Normal as you do Torment and each torment level increases the rate of acquisition. Difficulty levels matter.

    GRs are tied to progression challenge and important for xp and blood shards and increasing your blood shard cap.

    Grim Dawn has a complex trait tree but what sort of end game activities does it have and how are they in any way more challenging? That was the original point that GD and Path of Exile offer a much better challenging experience. I don't think so.

    blueturtle13SBFordConstantineMerus
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,009
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    In Diablo 3 you have to beat a difficulty level before ramping it up to the next difficulty level. Not all difficulty levels have the same loot tables. 
    You just don't know how Diablo 3 works. That is a problem if we are going to talk about it at all.

    Sorry I was mixing up T and GR levels. Ther'e's no need  to resort to condescension and snarky comments to prop up your own view.

    That still doesn't matter or invalidate anything I said. Torment levels have different loot tables and rates of loot. You can't get the same loot on Normal as you do Torment and each torment level increases the rate of acquisition. Difficulty levels matter.

    GRs are tied to progression challenge and important for xp and blood shards and increasing your blood shard cap.

    Grim Dawn has a complex trait tree but what sort of end game activities does it have and how are they in any way more challenging? That was the original point that GD and Path of Exile offer a much better challenging experience. I don't think so.

    I come off as condescending all the time. But in this case, I was actually worried that you just plain didn't know how Diablo worked. In the end, I try to treat people in kind. That might be why you see me treat, let's say thescavenger, differently. It's a nerd ethos for sure.

    Grim dawn doesn't have very good "end game." It has additional difficulty levels where you can continue to level your character and get better gear. There comes a point when it just gets more interesting to start a new character. This is generally after like 100+ hours played (or 20 minutes if you hate your character). After the point where you beat the last difficulty and are satisfied with your gear, you start a new build.

    PoE has a fairly robust endgame where you do maps to increase your character's power (through gear and such). The more challenging, the more potential rewards. It's hard to explain why the map system works so well. The bosses are varied and you can lose. You kind of want to set your goal on making a character that can womp one of the bosses that is difficult to defeat. You can build a character from the ground up in PoE, get to the endgame and find out your build is terrible if you aren't careful. The game attempts to challenge you all the way along. 

    When it comes to loot tables, you aren't entirely wrong, but by any honest measure, you are essentially wrong. There are 2 points where the gear is potentially different. First, at Torment 1. All legendaries can drop at Torment 1 and there is a 10% chance that a legendary drop is an ancient legendary. The second time is when you reach GR70. Once on character on your account gets to GR70, all characters can have Primal legendaries drop on any difficulty. This is an ancient legendary with max stats. 

    In other words - torment 1-13 are the same when it comes to what can drop. And if you have 1 character at or past GR70, all legendary drops from torment 1-13 are the same. The difference is the drop rate. Which brings me to me original point, "in Diablo you are incentivized to do the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time." 

    I think that some people like this style of play, and I'm fine with that. I just don't like it. Farming efficiency is boring to me. I think this is my last post so I will say this - I think Diablo 3 has the best gameplay by far than the other ARPGs mentioned earlier. The ability to level one character and get multiple builds out of it is nice. I find it strange that they put so much emphasis on set pieces, but still find using those set pieces interesting. I generally like Diablo 3. I just don't like the way they handle difficulty.


    TorvalConstantineMerus
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303

    it doesn't incentive playing the lowest difficulty at all. It incentives doing the highest difficulty you can while maintaining a fast time. Those are two very different things.
    I agree with you that it incentivizes doing the highest difficulty while maintaining a fast time. It is, without a doubt, one of the easiest and most boring ARPG progression systems ever. That's why I don't like the difficulty system.
    People generally do the same thing in POE - they find the sweet spot for fast map clears.  the atlas is definitely more enjoyable although POE could use some sort of competitive leaderboards not based on leveling the fastest.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    Wizardry said:
    "hard at work"..haha good one.

    The very little work i have seen gone into the entire Diablo series is pathetic.
    I bought into Diablo 3 on  whim,i figured Blizzard made so much money from the franchise they would finally get it together and put in some effort.Instead it is just more of the same old spam killing with no reason for a login screen what so ever.
    I'll make a prediction,seeing what has been done in recent games by Blizzard,i will expect to see more direction towards cash shop sales.
    This really harkens all the way back to D2:LoD.  Within a year of launching that they seemed to be pretty much done with D2 even though another expansion would have been massive.  TPTB decided to make the sequel game but Blizzard Norths plans of making it an MMO clashed with Blizzard South not wanting it to leech from WOW.

    Anyway, Blizzard didn't do a very good job in running warden often and catching people.  They just blamed the engine and old BNET and left players to deal with it.


  • RufusUORufusUO Member UncommonPosts: 37
    Random interjection:

    I have not played Grim Dawn.  Is it worth it?

    I tried PoE, didn't care for it much (was quickly turned off by microtransactions).  I played a ton of D3 and ranked in the top 100 on S9 (wizard/Americas server).  I also don't have as much gaming time as I used to, but GD has at least caught my attention in passing.

    Keeping these things in mind, is it worth a shot?
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,049
    RufusUO said:
    Random interjection:

    I have not played Grim Dawn.  Is it worth it?

    I tried PoE, didn't care for it much (was quickly turned off by microtransactions).  I played a ton of D3 and ranked in the top 100 on S9 (wizard/Americas server).  I also don't have as much gaming time as I used to, but GD has at least caught my attention in passing.

    Keeping these things in mind, is it worth a shot?
    Yes.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Torval
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Yes, Grim Dawn is worth it. So is Victor Vran if you'd like an ARPG with a different approach to progression. Both have a great narrative. Van Helsing can be interesting for a single play through, but it's not great. It's interesting and fun, but flawed in a few places.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,791
    SBFord said:
    What a mixed bag of feelings on this one:

    * depression * No news at Blizzcon
    * happy * But we're working towards the future
    * depression * ...by exploring what's next for the franchise

    Like they haven't already thought about "what's next" given that D3 is 5+ years old?

    Don't mind me. I'll be curled in a fetal position around my pillow crying crocodile tears. :(
    No time for it. Gotta focus on the WoW, HS and Overwatch cash cows. ;)

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    SBFord said:
    What a mixed bag of feelings on this one:

    * depression * No news at Blizzcon
    * happy * But we're working towards the future
    * depression * ...by exploring what's next for the franchise

    Like they haven't already thought about "what's next" given that D3 is 5+ years old?

    Don't mind me. I'll be curled in a fetal position around my pillow crying crocodile tears. :(
    No time for it. Gotta focus on the WoW, HS and Overwatch cash cows. ;)
    Yeah, I think they are still trying to figure out how to monetize the game and maybe even if they should continue as a traditional ARPG. 

    POE shows a feasible cash model for the most part. Although POE doesn't charge for new classes, I wouldn't have an issue with D4 using the current Necromancer shop model.
  • SephrinxSephrinx Member UncommonPosts: 83
    lmao

    imageimageimageimage

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