PSA: The $45,000 refund was fake - updated

135

Comments

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    What makes you think CIG isn't lying just to save face?
    They are making official statements to the media, that if the 45k refund was real, the guy who made would EASILY prove they are lying, and the media revealed to have that very intention and literally minutes after he deleted his account (supposedly supposed guy implies it was one Reddit admin (yes global site admins) that did so).

    So idk about you but I don't see the company taking the risk on something so easy to prove if real.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    Gdemami
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,354
    edited September 2017
    here's some more info, apparently posted by the guy who claimed the $45k refund he posted it via Discord:

    "Hi I'm [$45k guy]*, I was sent here by a contact on Discord before my Reddit account was deleted. I'm the $45k refund guy and can provide any evidence if necessary. I don't know, I was getting hundreds of messages every hour, it was crazy. I was replying to a reporter from Kotaku and wiritng a long message, then I went to press "send" and Reddit gave me an error. I then refreshed my page and I was logged out. I try to log back n but it says the username and password don't exist. I just checked a few of the news sites I was replying to now, and they are saying the refund was only for $330, but that's not true. $330 is my personal account, not the shared org account. To be clear I did refund $330 too"

    If that were the case the big story would be that reddit has a huge security issue that people can so easily delete your account by the people trying to silence you.

    Of course if that was the case at least half of all reddit accounts would be deleted. Or, like most of the rest of the world no one believes that kind of "oh the dog ate my homework" bullshit. Really boss, I would have had all the work to you but someone deleted all the files I needed. :expressionless: 

    Post edited by Torval on
    CrazKanuk
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    Torval said:
    If that were the case the big story would be that reddit has a huge security issue that people can so easily delete your account by the people trying to silence you.

    Of course if that was the case at least half of all reddit accounts would be deleted. Or, like most of the rest of the world no one believes that kind of "oh the dog ate my homework" bullshit. Really boss, I would have had all the work to you but someone deleted all the files I needed. :expressionless: 

    You're right the bigger story here would be one Reddit admin silencing people, and the timing would be minutes after CIG's statement and media showing intent on reaching the guy. lol

    On the one I just linked posts ago, CIG responds stating the correspondence (the ticket he did prints/vid on) was edited.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,354
    And since we all know reddit mods can't delete your account and reddit itself doesn't delete accounts for violations of which there weren't any. Posting lies and tripe to reddit isn't a no no. It's SoP for many subs so it's just a crazy thing to claim. I'd have a much easier time believing C.R. himself went to the guys house and paid him in hundreds before I'd believe that a reddit mod or admin deleted this dudes account.
    MaxBacon
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    Torval said:
    And since we all know reddit mods can't delete your account and reddit itself doesn't delete accounts for violations of which there weren't any. Posting lies and tripe to reddit isn't a no no. It's SoP for many subs so it's just a crazy thing to claim. I'd have a much easier time believing C.R. himself went to the guys house and paid him in hundreds before I'd believe that a reddit mod or admin deleted this dudes account.
    Yeah that wouldn't happen we see this on reddit all day long, seeing this timing it happened going with "Reddit staff did it" doesn't make sense.

    This is already a ladder of assumptions through, starting with assuming that text was first, real, and second, posted by the guy who claimed the refund.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    Torval
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    @VorpalChicken28 you might want to check: http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-backers-obtain-a-45000-refund/

    You were wondering about them not mentioning the 45k refund, yet the 330$ what would leave a door open that the 45k itself, the ticket that was shown, was real (say if they were talking a separate refund ticket, not the 45k one):

    "The Reddit post contains a number of screenshots of correspondence between the poster and CIG's customer service department detailing the refund process, however: "The screenshots do not represent the actual communications which were shared to and from our support department," the CIG representative wrote. "So no…there’s nothing to it at all. There is no story.""

    So that's a pretty direct statement that the ticket was edited, hence fabricated, so they in that way do state that 45k refund wasn't real, yet part of one edited 330$ refund ticket (with its ID visible, easy to track).
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    Gdemami
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,254
    MaxBacon said:
    @VorpalChicken28 you might want to check: http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-backers-obtain-a-45000-refund/

    You were wondering about them not mentioning the 45k refund, yet the 330$ what would leave a door open that the 45k itself, the ticket that was shown, was real (say if they were talking a separate refund ticket, not the 45k one):

    "The Reddit post contains a number of screenshots of correspondence between the poster and CIG's customer service department detailing the refund process, however: "The screenshots do not represent the actual communications which were shared to and from our support department," the CIG representative wrote. "So no…there’s nothing to it at all. There is no story.""

    So that's a pretty direct statement that the ticket was edited, hence fabricated, so they in that way do state that 45k refund wasn't real, yet part of one edited 330$ refund ticket (with its ID visible, easy to track).
    That quote just reads like them
    stepping around the truth. It doesn't specifically say there was no 45k refund but that that wasn't the entire communication.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    Kefo said:
    That quote just reads like them
    stepping around the truth. It doesn't specifically say there was no 45k refund but that that wasn't the entire communication.
    It's a very direct statement that the refund ticket was edited.

    Mind the ticket ID was in the browser URL of the screens, it's as simple (assuming the ID real) CIG to check that ID and find a 330$ refund instead. That's what it reads like, a real ticket, a real refund, but edited to fabricate a believable 45k refund.

    As quoting:
    ..a refund was issued recently to one customer, but in the amount of $330. I asked if it appeared this was the same customer, and if this customer had perhaps doctored the correspondence to make it appear as if the amount refunded was $45,000. The response I got was: "Yes to the first. Yes to the second…as best as we can tell."

    I don't believe they would risk lying on what would be so easily proveable if true by the guy in question just by letting the media verify the ticket.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 6,419
    Unless they added an NDA condition to the refund.  Stating they would grant the large refund under the condition they say no more about it.  That way a spin could be put on it talking only about his expense being refunded but not his guild to discourage others with large accounts to do the same.  Unlikely yes, but not impossible.
    TorvalMaxBacon

    "Change is the only constant." 

    "If you want to test a man's character, give him power."


  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,945
    Unless they added an NDA condition to the refund.  Stating they would grant the large refund under the condition they say no more about it.  That way a spin could be put on it talking only about his expense being refunded but not his guild to discourage others with large accounts to do the same.  Unlikely yes, but not impossible.

    Well that, or CIG could have paid a reddit mod in order to delete the account. Or CIG could have hacked into reddit and deleted his account. Or CIG could have hacked into a satellite, aimed it at the reddit servers, and bombarded it with ions until his account was corrupted. 

    I suppose we can believe whatever we like, and we will. Whenever the literal evidence supports an argument, then we can only talk about facts and literals. Other times, coincidences are more than acceptable, as long as it suits our agenda. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    CrazKanuk said:
    Well that, or CIG could have paid a reddit mod in order to delete the account. Or CIG could have hacked into reddit and deleted his account. Or CIG could have hacked into a satellite, aimed it at the reddit servers, and bombarded it with ions until his account was corrupted. 

    I suppose we can believe whatever we like, and we will. Whenever the literal evidence supports an argument, then we can only talk about facts and literals. Other times, coincidences are more than acceptable, as long as it suits our agenda. 
    For all there is, the CIG statement stands, the ball is the guy who made the claim that could easily prove it real if it was, the reddit account delete talks by itself... Unless... what you said xD
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXMember EpicPosts: 5,316
    Issuing a statement is NOT proof. It's just words.

    A video showing a communication with CIG on their website with the $45,000 refund being refreshed seems like proof to me.

    Of course, in today's world, anything is possible.

    One rule of thumb though, you can't trust anyone to be 100% honest, regardless of their position, relation or social status.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    Rhoklaw said:
    Issuing a statement is NOT proof. It's just words.

    A video showing a communication with CIG on their website with the $45,000 refund being refreshed seems like proof to me.
    The company statement is far more solid because if the refund was real, it would be easy to prove the company lied (unreasonable to believe they would take such a risk), something the media was interested in pursuing, but:
    I've attempted to contact the Reddit poster (who said in their post that they preferred to remain anonymous) about this refund, and will update the story if I hear anything back.

    Update: The redditor who made the original post has deleted their account.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemMember EpicPosts: 2,104
    Rhoklaw said:
    Issuing a statement is NOT proof. It's just words.

    A video showing a communication with CIG on their website with the $45,000 refund being refreshed seems like proof to me.

    Of course, in today's world, anything is possible.

    One rule of thumb though, you can't trust anyone to be 100% honest, regardless of their position, relation or social status.
    Sad but true.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 6,419
    edited September 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    Unless they added an NDA condition to the refund.  Stating they would grant the large refund under the condition they say no more about it.  That way a spin could be put on it talking only about his expense being refunded but not his guild to discourage others with large accounts to do the same.  Unlikely yes, but not impossible.

    Well that, or CIG could have paid a reddit mod in order to delete the account. Or CIG could have hacked into reddit and deleted his account. Or CIG could have hacked into a satellite, aimed it at the reddit servers, and bombarded it with ions until his account was corrupted. 

    I suppose we can believe whatever we like, and we will. Whenever the literal evidence supports an argument, then we can only talk about facts and literals. Other times, coincidences are more than acceptable, as long as it suits our agenda. 
    Companies reaching a settlement combined with a non-disclosure agreement is pretty normal these days and a lot easier than hacking accounts, servers, or satellites.  :smile: 

    It's also a good answer to the question of why the guy has suddenly gone dark.
    Post edited by Octagon7711 on
    MaxBacon

    "Change is the only constant." 

    "If you want to test a man's character, give him power."


  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    Companies reaching a settlement combined with a non-disclosure agreement is pretty normal these days and a lot easier than hacking accounts, servers, or satellites.  :smile: 

    It's also a good answer to the question of why the guy has suddenly gone dark.
    lol,

    If I was to take a refund I would do exactly what happened here; I would fake the refund with the screens and the vid (just a few tricks with the frames), I also wouldn't expect to CIG to ever react to it, so if they did I would delete my account as the media reaching me to verify if the company claim was true, because then I would be proven fake if I engaged, deleting my account would be the best option to drive theory-crafting. :)

    I wonder if they paid him "another 45k" to delete his account.

    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy DublinMember EpicPosts: 2,640
    MaxBacon said:
    This also tells about the refunds sub credibility when the admins claimed they personally verified the legitimacy of that refund...


    I think that's a bit of a reach.

    All it means is that the scammer did a convincing job. A lot of the "proof" was posted after the original claim and I guess it was this "proof" which was the so-called verified stuff.

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    I think that's a bit of a reach.

    All it means is that the scammer did a convincing job. A lot of the "proof" was posted after the original claim and I guess it was this "proof" which was the so-called verified stuff.
    It was very deceptive, but from the ground up they wouldn't have any proper standard to verify refunds, all of them fly by nobody cares if real or not everyone assumes everything is real (even the 11K refund troll that was self-announced faked time ago was never verified), this one stirred them to check because of its amount.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy DublinMember EpicPosts: 2,640
    MaxBacon said:
    I think that's a bit of a reach.

    All it means is that the scammer did a convincing job. A lot of the "proof" was posted after the original claim and I guess it was this "proof" which was the so-called verified stuff.
    It was very deceptive, but from the ground up they wouldn't have any proper standard to verify refunds, all of them fly by nobody cares if real or not everyone assumes everything is real (even the 11K refund troll that was self-announced faked time ago was never verified), this one stirred them to check because of its amount.

    Should we even expect them to have standards or a criteria for verifying refunds though? They're not media releasing details from some government whistleblower.
    They probably don't care about the veracity of refunds and perhaps it was even a case of claiming it was verified to help it be taken more seriously, than it might have otherwise been, who knows?

    The point though, is that the motives or culpability of the mod are completely unknown, he could have easily been duped or he could be playing along with it, I just don't think it's fair to claim anything is definite, atleast not without actual proof.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,760
    edited September 2017
    When a hate for a game is this intense, there is obviously a severe agenda against SC and anyone involved in doing things like this needs mental help right away.
    they've taken over $100 million and really aren't close to delivering what they promised.  How many more years do people have to wait before they can call CR on his scam and/or mismanagement?

    People will think twice about crowdfunding a game once they've experienced it with SC.  That's not good at all.
    Post edited by FrodoFragins on
    Athea
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHMember RarePosts: 3,760
    edited September 2017
    Kumapon said:
    To be perfectly honest, we still don’t have any actual proof of either set of claims. We have a he said, he said. CIG denied it, not refuted it.
    How do they refute it?  The guild wasn't named and may not exist.  and the dude making the claims vanished as soon as CIG made a statement 

    Do you want them to show you all of the refunds they did give on the day of the claim?
    Post edited by FrodoFragins on
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    edited September 2017
    Should we even expect them to have standards or a criteria for verifying refunds though? They're not media releasing details from some government whistleblower.
    They probably don't care about the veracity of refunds and perhaps it was even a case of claiming it was verified to help it be taken more seriously, than it might have otherwise been, who knows?

    The point though, is that the motives or culpability of the mod are completely unknown, he could have easily been duped or he could be playing along with it, I just don't think it's fair to claim anything is definite, atleast not without actual proof.
    Not really because it's not about that, there's no criteria for it, it's just a place where the higher the quantity and amounts of them, the better, so I would mean what I said more on the that not specifically to this verification that was one exception, one that felt under a very deceptive case.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 15,354
    Let's get something really clear here. There is no way in hell that Reddit or CIG caused that account to be deleted. Can everyone agree on that? Because that would be like Google or Microsoft deleting your account because you had a fight with their partner or an app dev on their store page. Reddit makes bucket and boatloads of cash. Would they risk that with the demographic that comprises their user base? That sort of thing could tank the site.
  • KefoKefo London, ONMember EpicPosts: 3,254
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    That quote just reads like them
    stepping around the truth. It doesn't specifically say there was no 45k refund but that that wasn't the entire communication.
    It's a very direct statement that the refund ticket was edited.

    Mind the ticket ID was in the browser URL of the screens, it's as simple (assuming the ID real) CIG to check that ID and find a 330$ refund instead. That's what it reads like, a real ticket, a real refund, but edited to fabricate a believable 45k refund.

    As quoting:
    ..a refund was issued recently to one customer, but in the amount of $330. I asked if it appeared this was the same customer, and if this customer had perhaps doctored the correspondence to make it appear as if the amount refunded was $45,000. The response I got was: "Yes to the first. Yes to the second…as best as we can tell."

    I don't believe they would risk lying on what would be so easily proveable if true by the guy in question just by letting the media verify the ticket.
    The quote I was talking about it doesn't very clearly say it was edited. The quote you posted doesn't say that grub never gave a refund for 45k but just that that response looks like it was edited. It's them spinning everything
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Figueira da FozMember EpicPosts: 4,838
    Kefo said:
    The quote I was talking about it doesn't very clearly say it was edited. The quote you posted doesn't say that grub never gave a refund for 45k but just that that response looks like it was edited. It's them spinning everything
    "The screenshots do not represent the actual communications which were shared to and from our support department"

    Seems clear to me that's what was stated there, especially as their first statement to Ars they already stated a lot of information was fabricated and that the refund given to said account was of 330$, not 45k.
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