It would be safe to assume that, if this poll was supposed to be any sort of scientific or statistical research survey. It isn't. It was created in response to another thread specifically about the title, on a website for video game nerds. I don't remember @Scorchien mentioning this was part of any study he was going to submit for a scientific journal.
Not every poll posted on a video game website need meet stringent criteria for scientific polling. Scorchien knew the audience he was aiming this poll at.
What Scorchien uses these polls to do is run around and say "See, everyone agrees with me and therefore my opinion on the subject is correct."
That makes it worth pointing out his polls are crap, and that anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.
While I'm assuming I voted the same way he did on this poll, I'm not going to circle the wagons blindly defend crap polling methods like you will apparently.
And who says I'm saying his poll is legitimate data for anything? I don't come to these forums and attempt to extrapolate the results of one poll to reflect upon the entirety of the general consumer base. His poll is a direct response to another discussion I was a part of, and if you want to criticize an argument he attempts to make using the results of this poll, go right ahead. I doubt he posted it expecting no one would be criticizing any argument he makes from the poll or within the associated thread. I just think we should all quit acting like he has some sort of obligation to provide a Gallup-worthy survey presentation when he's creating a friggin' forum poll on a video game website.
Torval's original response wasn't just arguing the poll was flawed; he was implying it wasn't a topic worthy of discussion (hence why he supported adding an option that basically said "I think this topic is pointless"). If it's pointless, why waste time attempting to convince us to add an extra option? Why take the time to respond multiple times in a continued attempt to convince us this topic isn't worth discussion? It's not like this poll is going to be included in some featured article here on MMORPG.com, presented as a representation of the overall consumer base's opinions. So why would anyone be so worried that their voice might go unmarked within a poll that will never be discussed outside of these forums? Specifically, one that was created as a supplement to an ongoing discussion in these forums? And one they think is worthless anyways? That seems like incredibly small potatoes to me. Additionally, it undercuts one's argument when you apply a derogatory term like "forum warrior" to the group that you're actively engaging in "forum PvP" with.
As an aside, you'll see I have not attempted to make any kind of argument from popularity to support my opinion that Destiny is not an MMO. My arguments stem from an observation of the features presented within the game.
It would be safe to assume that, if this poll was supposed to be any sort of scientific or statistical research survey. It isn't. It was created in response to another thread specifically about the title, on a website for video game nerds. I don't remember @Scorchien mentioning this was part of any study he was going to submit for a scientific journal.
Not every poll posted on a video game website need meet stringent criteria for scientific polling. Scorchien knew the audience he was aiming this poll at.
What Scorchien uses these polls to do is run around and say "See, everyone agrees with me and therefore my opinion on the subject is correct."
That makes it worth pointing out his polls are crap, and that anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.
While I'm assuming I voted the same way he did on this poll, I'm not going to circle the wagons blindly defend crap polling methods like you will apparently.
Completely false , There was a heated discussion about Destiny 2 legitamcy as an MMO in another thread , at one point someone suggested a Poll (think it was Lokke) .
Rather than have 100 opinions fragmented thru 8 pages , a poll provided a clear concise head count of those who feel it is and those who feel it isnt.
So i put one up to gauge the communties opinion on wether Destiny 2 is an MMO or not .. Very simple for most people...
Which btw seems 107 members have voted 4-1 its Not , so it seems to have gauged this communities opinion pretty accuratley ..
Thats all it was meant to do and it accomplshed that
Played Destiny 1 to the point that got all trophies on PSN and did more grouping in it than most mmorpg where 99% of the players just solo. Only things that didn't make this a mmorpg to me were: no trading between players and no auction. Also had to go to websites to start raid groups instead of having in game grouping directly. It is not a mmorpg BUT playing it for as long as played it felt as a mmorpg. If people call Guild Wars 1 a mmorpg than Destiny is a mmorpg as well.
2nd thought: I don't care if it is a mmorpg or not I enjoyed the hell out of the first title looking forward to the 2nd even though on beta felt like an expansion of the original.
However you need to frame so you can sleep at night. Are you going to play it? If someone calls it one thing and not another will that affect your decision?
Oh c'mon Torval, your argument is a red herring. Just because folks aren't going to go out and riot because Trump is President, it doesn't mean everyone agrees he was the best pick or even qualifies for the position.
I'm saying it doesn't matter what it's called. Sometimes it's relevant when describing a game, sometimes not. It's not relevant to me. Is it relevant to you whether someone calls it an mmo?
If we're talking about viewing the market, then of course. Including games that aren't really part of the genre skews our view of the industry itself.
It's akin to including pop rock in with indie and attempting to assert that indie rock is becoming mainstream because of it.
I have no qualms with the niche that is MMORPG. It was a niche when I found the genre, and I never really considered it as a mainstream gaming genre after I found it. It's the unique exprience that it brings that is attractive to me; not how closely it can imitate modern action RPGs.
Beyond that, if we're going to start including random games all willy nilly, there's not even a reason to use the term MMO anymore. Just call it all multiplayer and be done with it.
The developer and publisher haven't called it an mmo so it's not being billed that way by those selling it. PR releases and trailers haven't called it an mmo, that I've seen.
So no one but a group of mmorpg forum fans, and their trolls, have tried to call it an mmorpg or even argue about it. That's why I say the question doesn't matter outside that small group because I think the majority of people talking about it aren't framing it in that context at all.
Bungie and ActiBlizz call it an "Action Shooter". They don't even qualify the multiplayer in the genre title. So you got your wish before it was even an issue. So again, what problem did the "don't call it an mmorpg" clique have and what did this thread accomplish?
So, if by example league of legends devs called LoL an MMO, it would then be an MMO since that is what they what they called it?
That is what you are saying, just because the devs don't call it an MMO doesn't mean it isn't. I could make a co-op game (which is what most themepark MMOs are with their tiny non-massively sized 6 player groups) and call it an MMO, doesn't mean it is or it isn't, it be however I'd want to market it.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
No, you haven't gauged anything accurately. You've setup an echo chamber to reinforce the point you want to promote.
So what exactly did you accomplish?
Again sorry Torv thats not true ..
if you read thru the other thread , there was some members there who said that it was just the "old thinking minority" that couldnt let go of MMO.. And that Destiny 2 is an MMO
at 4-1 the poll clearly shows who the minority is , in this community as to what Destiny 2 is , Thats all the poll was intended for ..
It's a moo point, you know like a cows opinion, it doesn't matter.
Joey!!
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
There is a movement on these boards spearheaded by Nauri and which Scavenger has apparently joined that aims to revive the dying MMO genre by including more games into the definition of MMO. They see it as the last hope to "save the genre".
Here is the thing. MOBAs already exist, survival games exist etc. I know what these games are and what they entail. So do most other MMO players. And I even do play these games sometimes when they are the type of gaming experience I want in that moment.
If they want to play those games, they already will. Slapping the "MMO" label on it isn't going to make me more likely to play it. It's going to make me more likely to get pissed off when I join the game hyped up to enjoy it's massively multiplayer aspects only to discover they don't exist.
However you need to frame so you can sleep at night. Are you going to play it? If someone calls it one thing and not another will that affect your decision?
Definitions must be clear otherwise things get bent into new things that don't even resemble the original. "Unlimited Internet" to me means I can use it in any way, shape or form that I wish and not be limited, however Verizon's definition doesn't even land on the same planet (nor most providers). What I consider an MMO defines what I look for in a game. If a game advertises as an MMO (I'm not saying Bungie ever did) then yes that's what I expect to find. Once these "new definitions" catch on then the original ideas are lost and what I wanted or liked is as well.
Now, obviously you care otherwise you would ignore these threads and move on.
However you need to frame so you can sleep at night. Are you going to play it? If someone calls it one thing and not another will that affect your decision?
Oh c'mon Torval, your argument is a red herring. Just because folks aren't going to go out and riot because Trump is President, it doesn't mean everyone agrees he was the best pick or even qualifies for the position.
I'm saying it doesn't matter what it's called. Sometimes it's relevant when describing a game, sometimes not. It's not relevant to me. Is it relevant to you whether someone calls it an mmo?
If we're talking about viewing the market, then of course. Including games that aren't really part of the genre skews our view of the industry itself.
It's akin to including pop rock in with indie and attempting to assert that indie rock is becoming mainstream because of it.
I have no qualms with the niche that is MMORPG. It was a niche when I found the genre, and I never really considered it as a mainstream gaming genre after I found it. It's the unique exprience that it brings that is attractive to me; not how closely it can imitate modern action RPGs.
Beyond that, if we're going to start including random games all willy nilly, there's not even a reason to use the term MMO anymore. Just call it all multiplayer and be done with it.
The developer and publisher haven't called it an mmo so it's not being billed that way by those selling it. PR releases and trailers haven't called it an mmo, that I've seen.
So no one but a group of mmorpg forum fans, and their trolls, have tried to call it an mmorpg or even argue about it. That's why I say the question doesn't matter outside that small group because I think the majority of people talking about it aren't framing it in that context at all.
Bungie and ActiBlizz call it an "Action Shooter". They don't even qualify the multiplayer in the genre title. So you got your wish before it was even an issue. So again, what problem did the "don't call it an mmorpg" clique have and what did this thread accomplish?
It was a discussion started on a video game discussion forum. I would surmise that any wise community member would not be attempting to accomplish anything other than discussing video games here.
If someone isn't framing it accurately, then that can be a discussion to be had. Your original message went beyond that. Folks here disagree about whether it qualifies, and the back and forth and debate is enjoyable sometimes. Folks can extrapolate on ideas and points they feel are relevant. No one's trying to change the world here, you're right. But I think the majority of us feel that goes without saying. Not every discussion has to have the goal of resolving all issues or reaching a consensus opinion. Of those that do, most fail to accomplish the goal. So what about this discussion makes it something different, something that you feel shouldn't even be discussed?
And if I see Scorchien attempting to extrapolate the data in a way I disagree with, I have no problem disagreeing with him on it. His recent posts don't seem to extrapolate it beyond its accurate scope. If he's being disingenuous, I haven't seen the posts that would indicate this.
The game can be played online concurrently by a massive number of players, so it is an MMO by definition. Nothing about an MMO requires that the massive number of players all be playing in such a way that they are constantly accessible to each other.
People play in small closed parties in traditional MMORPGs with regularity. Often they are so far from others that they effectively the only players around, or playing in a place others can't access (such as an instanced dungeon.) Just because they are in a small isolated party doesn't suddenly change the game from being an MMO.
The above situation wouldn't be functionally any different from a small group playing Destiny 2 together, or any other similar title.
The game can be played online concurrently by a massive number of players, so it is an MMO by definition. Nothing about an MMO requires that the massive number of players all be playing in such a way that they are constantly accessible to each other.
Your use of the word "concurrently" is where your misunderstanding of what an MMO is stems from.
Concurrent - at the same time / simultaneously.
That has nothing to do with multiplayer. Being a multiplayer game means the people playing within the same virtual environment. So, Call of Duty, Battlefield, PUBG etc all have 1000s or millions playing concurrently, but the multiplayer part of it is capped at a low number. The same is true for Destiny and Destiny 2 - they may support 1000s concurrently playing the game, but when it comes to the multiplayer bit, the number is capped low.
So, given that "massively" is an adverb and is applied to the word "multiplayer", to be an MMO you have to support a massive amount of people within the same virtual environment. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, LotRO etc all support 1000s within the same virtual environment, Destiny does not.
It may not be an MMO, but personally my decision on whether to buy the game when it is released will be based on how P2W the game is, which at the moment is a point of concern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5ACiZin1c
The game can be played online concurrently by a massive number of players, so it is an MMO by definition. Nothing about an MMO requires that the massive number of players all be playing in such a way that they are constantly accessible to each other.
Your use of the word "concurrently" is where your misunderstanding of what an MMO is stems from.
Concurrent - at the same time / simultaneously.
That has nothing to do with multiplayer. Being a multiplayer game means the people playing within the same virtual environment. So, Call of Duty, Battlefield, PUBG etc all have 1000s or millions playing concurrently, but the multiplayer part of it is capped at a low number. The same is true for Destiny and Destiny 2 - they may support 1000s concurrently playing the game, but when it comes to the multiplayer bit, the number is capped low.
So, given that "massively" is an adverb and is applied to the word "multiplayer", to be an MMO you have to support a massive amount of people within the same virtual environment. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, LotRO etc all support 1000s within the same virtual environment, Destiny does not.
It has everything to do with multiplayer. That is what multiplayer means, multiple concurrent players, with the exception of hot seat games where it is consecutive.
It doesn't matter if the number is capped low, so long as it is more than one.
Nothing about the definition requires that thousands of players exist in the same environment during play. It simply requires that a massive number of people can play the game concurrently. You are simply trying to make historical examples of MMORPGs defining of MMOs in general, which they are not. The genre has expanded beyond them.
The reality is that the vast majority of actual play in MMORPGs does not take place in areas of high player concentration in any case. Rather, most of the play takes place removed from that, either solo or in comparatively small groups of people when contrasted with the overall population... groups often similar in size to those in Destiny and other similar titles. In many MMORPGs these areas become instanced upon group entry, making them even more similar.
As such, the difference is more a matter of form than function, that form being what surrounds the play. Those MMOs that fit the traditional form of MMORPGs are described as such. MMOs that don't are not, being typically described by whatever sub-genre they are in.
Essentially, MMO is a broad category of games, of which MMORPG is but one type. Other types of games are also included within, and this variety will continue to expand over time as multiplayer games of different genres are released.
The game can be played online concurrently by a massive number of players, so it is an MMO by definition. Nothing about an MMO requires that the massive number of players all be playing in such a way that they are constantly accessible to each other.
Your use of the word "concurrently" is where your misunderstanding of what an MMO is stems from.
Concurrent - at the same time / simultaneously.
That has nothing to do with multiplayer. Being a multiplayer game means the people playing within the same virtual environment. So, Call of Duty, Battlefield, PUBG etc all have 1000s or millions playing concurrently, but the multiplayer part of it is capped at a low number. The same is true for Destiny and Destiny 2 - they may support 1000s concurrently playing the game, but when it comes to the multiplayer bit, the number is capped low.
So, given that "massively" is an adverb and is applied to the word "multiplayer", to be an MMO you have to support a massive amount of people within the same virtual environment. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, LotRO etc all support 1000s within the same virtual environment, Destiny does not.
It has everything to do with multiplayer. That is what multiplayer means, multiple concurrent players, with the exception of hot seat games where it is consecutive.
It doesn't matter if the number is capped low, so long as it is more than one.
Nothing about the definition requires that thousands of players exist in the same environment during play. It simply requires that a massive number of people can play the game concurrently. You are simply trying to make historical examples of MMORPGs defining of MMOs in general, which they are not. The genre has expanded beyond them.
The reality is that the vast majority of actual play in MMORPGs does not take place in areas of high player concentration in any case. Rather, most of the play takes place removed from that, either solo or in comparatively small groups of people when contrasted with the overall population... groups often similar in size to those in Destiny and other similar titles. In many MMORPGs these areas become instanced upon group entry, making them even more similar.
As such, the difference is more a matter of form than function, that form being what surrounds the play. Those MMOs that fit the traditional form of MMORPGs are described as such. MMOs that don't are not, being typically described by whatever sub-genre they are in.
Essentially, MMO is a broad category of games, of which MMORPG is but one type. Other types of games are also included within, and this variety will continue to expand over time as multiplayer games of different genres are released.
MMO is ONLY about the number of people that can exist within the same virtual environment. Just look at the words:
Multiplayer - the game allows 2 or more people to interact within the same game world
Online - the gamers connect to one another via the internet
Massively - adverb, applies to the world multiplayer, meaning the multiplayer aspect is considered significantly bigger than standard multiplayer
It is fairly basic English comprehension. It also fits with the history of MMOs. It also fits with the definitions given by some of the pioneers of MMOs. It even fits with what modern developers are telling us: Bungie does not call Destiny or Destiny 2 an MMO, in fact they outright deny it because they know it isn't!
But, lets look at where you are falling down. For some bizarre reason, you seem to believe that playing the game at the same time as someone else counts as being multiplayer. Why? That has never been the definition of multiplayer!
Multiplayer has always meant the ability to play at the same time AND interact with them. If we cannot interact, it is not multiplayer. I can go to https://www.solitr.com/ and play a game of solitaire there, and you could do so at the same time. That would mean we are playing the game concurrently but, without the ability to interact with each other, we are not playing a multiplayer game.
The same is true of Destiny. There is a cap of 16 people in any given instance (or, so I'm told). If you want to interact with any of the other 1000s of people playing the game at the same time as you (concurrent users), you have to leave the game world (instance) and return to a lobby via loading screens, then connect with them and enter their instance. You are never sharing the same game world with more than 16 players at any given moment. If you want to play with a friend who is not in your current instance, there is no possible way for the two of you to play together (multiplayer) without one or both of you leaving the gameworld and loading into a new version of it. If you have 50 friends playing the game, there is no possible way for all 50 of you to meet up in game. So, with a cap of 16 players, the game cannot be defined as massively multiplayer....just normal multiplayer.
And again, there is nothing wrong with that! Destiny as a game is fine. It has a lot of features within it that are similar to standard MMORPG features - quests, leveling, loot, dungeons, raids - so the game will appeal to a lot of MMORPG fans. But, do not confuse it for an MMO, because it isn't. If you do consider it an MMO, then absolutely every single game that has ever had online multiplayer is also an MMO. If you consider that statement to be true, there is no helping you.
The game can be played online concurrently by a massive number of players, so it is an MMO by definition. Nothing about an MMO requires that the massive number of players all be playing in such a way that they are constantly accessible to each other.
Your use of the word "concurrently" is where your misunderstanding of what an MMO is stems from.
Concurrent - at the same time / simultaneously.
That has nothing to do with multiplayer. Being a multiplayer game means the people playing within the same virtual environment. So, Call of Duty, Battlefield, PUBG etc all have 1000s or millions playing concurrently, but the multiplayer part of it is capped at a low number. The same is true for Destiny and Destiny 2 - they may support 1000s concurrently playing the game, but when it comes to the multiplayer bit, the number is capped low.
So, given that "massively" is an adverb and is applied to the word "multiplayer", to be an MMO you have to support a massive amount of people within the same virtual environment. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, LotRO etc all support 1000s within the same virtual environment, Destiny does not.
It has everything to do with multiplayer. That is what multiplayer means, multiple concurrent players, with the exception of hot seat games where it is consecutive.
It doesn't matter if the number is capped low, so long as it is more than one.
Nothing about the definition requires that thousands of players exist in the same environment during play. It simply requires that a massive number of people can play the game concurrently. You are simply trying to make historical examples of MMORPGs defining of MMOs in general, which they are not. The genre has expanded beyond them.
The reality is that the vast majority of actual play in MMORPGs does not take place in areas of high player concentration in any case. Rather, most of the play takes place removed from that, either solo or in comparatively small groups of people when contrasted with the overall population... groups often similar in size to those in Destiny and other similar titles. In many MMORPGs these areas become instanced upon group entry, making them even more similar.
As such, the difference is more a matter of form than function, that form being what surrounds the play. Those MMOs that fit the traditional form of MMORPGs are described as such. MMOs that don't are not, being typically described by whatever sub-genre they are in.
Essentially, MMO is a broad category of games, of which MMORPG is but one type. Other types of games are also included within, and this variety will continue to expand over time as multiplayer games of different genres are released.
No offense but by your definition, DOOM 2 is also an MMO
Even though multiplayer was only possible through the use of a LAN, thousands of people were playing concurrently.
Why do we even have dictionaries? Words should mean whatever we want them to mean. "You're a giant poopyhead." can mean "I love you more than life itself." If that's what I want it to mean.
Why do we even have dictionaries? Words should mean whatever we want them to mean. "You're a giant poopyhead." can mean "I love you more than life itself." If that's what I want it to mean.
Actually, there is a lot of truth to this. For example, people keep using the word "Bae" to describe their loved ones...guess what Bae means in Danish?
Poop. Bae means poop in Danish.
However, people turned that word into something good to describe a loved one, so it no longer means poop. That is one example of a word changing definitions.
Also, gay...gay used to mean happy. Now today it obviously has a different meaning.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Why do we even have dictionaries? Words should mean whatever we want them to mean. "You're a giant poopyhead." can mean "I love you more than life itself." If that's what I want it to mean.
Actually, there is a lot of truth to this. For example, people keep using the word "Bae" to describe their loved ones...guess what Bae means in Danish?
Poop. Bae means poop in Danish.
However, people turned that word into something good to describe a loved one, so it no longer means poop. That is one example of a word changing definitions.
Also, gay...gay used to mean happy. Now today it obviously has a different meaning.
Not sure what country you would be in where the word 'bae' is used in conjunction with another person, indeed, i think its more likely that your misunderstanding or mishearing someone using the term 'babe' at least if you were in the UK that would be the case, particularly in regard to peoples loved ones, but your right, gay used to mean happy, now, it means something is a bit naff, or rubbish. MMO however is not a word, and as for Massively, i guess if you had to rely on using your fingers to add up numbers, then anything over 5 could be a bit 'massive'
Why do we even have dictionaries? Words should mean whatever we want them to mean. "You're a giant poopyhead." can mean "I love you more than life itself." If that's what I want it to mean.
Actually, there is a lot of truth to this. For example, people keep using the word "Bae" to describe their loved ones...guess what Bae means in Danish?
Poop. Bae means poop in Danish.
However, people turned that word into something good to describe a loved one, so it no longer means poop. That is one example of a word changing definitions.
Also, gay...gay used to mean happy. Now today it obviously has a different meaning.
Not sure what country you would be in where the word 'bae' is used in conjunction with another person, indeed, i think its more likely that your misunderstanding or mishearing someone using the term 'babe' at least if you were in the UK that would be the case, particularly in regard to peoples loved ones, but your right, gay used to mean happy, now, it means something is a bit naff, or rubbish. MMO however is not a word, and as for Massively, i guess if you had to rely on using your fingers to add up numbers, then anything over 5 could be a bit 'massive'
Comments
Torval's original response wasn't just arguing the poll was flawed; he was implying it wasn't a topic worthy of discussion (hence why he supported adding an option that basically said "I think this topic is pointless"). If it's pointless, why waste time attempting to convince us to add an extra option? Why take the time to respond multiple times in a continued attempt to convince us this topic isn't worth discussion? It's not like this poll is going to be included in some featured article here on MMORPG.com, presented as a representation of the overall consumer base's opinions. So why would anyone be so worried that their voice might go unmarked within a poll that will never be discussed outside of these forums? Specifically, one that was created as a supplement to an ongoing discussion in these forums? And one they think is worthless anyways? That seems like incredibly small potatoes to me. Additionally, it undercuts one's argument when you apply a derogatory term like "forum warrior" to the group that you're actively engaging in "forum PvP" with.
As an aside, you'll see I have not attempted to make any kind of argument from popularity to support my opinion that Destiny is not an MMO. My arguments stem from an observation of the features presented within the game.
Rather than have 100 opinions fragmented thru 8 pages , a poll provided a clear concise head count of those who feel it is and those who feel it isnt.
So i put one up to gauge the communties opinion on wether Destiny 2 is an MMO or not .. Very simple for most people...
Which btw seems 107 members have voted 4-1 its Not , so it seems to have gauged this communities opinion pretty accuratley ..
Thats all it was meant to do and it accomplshed that
Only things that didn't make this a mmorpg to me were: no trading between players and no auction. Also had to go to websites to start raid groups instead of having in game grouping directly.
It is not a mmorpg BUT playing it for as long as played it felt as a mmorpg. If people call Guild Wars 1 a mmorpg than Destiny is a mmorpg as well.
2nd thought: I don't care if it is a mmorpg or not I enjoyed the hell out of the first title looking forward to the 2nd even though on beta felt like an expansion of the original.
That is what you are saying, just because the devs don't call it an MMO doesn't mean it isn't. I could make a co-op game (which is what most themepark MMOs are with their tiny non-massively sized 6 player groups) and call it an MMO, doesn't mean it is or it isn't, it be however I'd want to market it.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
if you read thru the other thread , there was some members there who said that it was just the "old thinking minority" that couldnt let go of MMO.. And that Destiny 2 is an MMO
at 4-1 the poll clearly shows who the minority is , in this community as to what Destiny 2 is , Thats all the poll was intended for ..
and it showed that
Here is the thing. MOBAs already exist, survival games exist etc. I know what these games are and what they entail. So do most other MMO players. And I even do play these games sometimes when they are the type of gaming experience I want in that moment.
If they want to play those games, they already will. Slapping the "MMO" label on it isn't going to make me more likely to play it. It's going to make me more likely to get pissed off when I join the game hyped up to enjoy it's massively multiplayer aspects only to discover they don't exist.
Now, obviously you care otherwise you would ignore these threads and move on.
If someone isn't framing it accurately, then that can be a discussion to be had. Your original message went beyond that. Folks here disagree about whether it qualifies, and the back and forth and debate is enjoyable sometimes. Folks can extrapolate on ideas and points they feel are relevant. No one's trying to change the world here, you're right. But I think the majority of us feel that goes without saying. Not every discussion has to have the goal of resolving all issues or reaching a consensus opinion. Of those that do, most fail to accomplish the goal. So what about this discussion makes it something different, something that you feel shouldn't even be discussed?
And if I see Scorchien attempting to extrapolate the data in a way I disagree with, I have no problem disagreeing with him on it. His recent posts don't seem to extrapolate it beyond its accurate scope. If he's being disingenuous, I haven't seen the posts that would indicate this.
People play in small closed parties in traditional MMORPGs with regularity. Often they are so far from others that they effectively the only players around, or playing in a place others can't access (such as an instanced dungeon.) Just because they are in a small isolated party doesn't suddenly change the game from being an MMO.
The above situation wouldn't be functionally any different from a small group playing Destiny 2 together, or any other similar title.
http://twitch.tv/woetothevanquished
Concurrent - at the same time / simultaneously.
That has nothing to do with multiplayer. Being a multiplayer game means the people playing within the same virtual environment. So, Call of Duty, Battlefield, PUBG etc all have 1000s or millions playing concurrently, but the multiplayer part of it is capped at a low number. The same is true for Destiny and Destiny 2 - they may support 1000s concurrently playing the game, but when it comes to the multiplayer bit, the number is capped low.
So, given that "massively" is an adverb and is applied to the word "multiplayer", to be an MMO you have to support a massive amount of people within the same virtual environment. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, LotRO etc all support 1000s within the same virtual environment, Destiny does not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j5ACiZin1c
It doesn't matter if the number is capped low, so long as it is more than one.
Nothing about the definition requires that thousands of players exist in the same environment during play. It simply requires that a massive number of people can play the game concurrently. You are simply trying to make historical examples of MMORPGs defining of MMOs in general, which they are not. The genre has expanded beyond them.
The reality is that the vast majority of actual play in MMORPGs does not take place in areas of high player concentration in any case. Rather, most of the play takes place removed from that, either solo or in comparatively small groups of people when contrasted with the overall population... groups often similar in size to those in Destiny and other similar titles. In many MMORPGs these areas become instanced upon group entry, making them even more similar.
As such, the difference is more a matter of form than function, that form being what surrounds the play. Those MMOs that fit the traditional form of MMORPGs are described as such. MMOs that don't are not, being typically described by whatever sub-genre they are in.
Essentially, MMO is a broad category of games, of which MMORPG is but one type. Other types of games are also included within, and this variety will continue to expand over time as multiplayer games of different genres are released.
MMO is ONLY about the number of people that can exist within the same virtual environment. Just look at the words:
- Multiplayer - the game allows 2 or more people to interact within the same game world
- Online - the gamers connect to one another via the internet
- Massively - adverb, applies to the world multiplayer, meaning the multiplayer aspect is considered significantly bigger than standard multiplayer
It is fairly basic English comprehension. It also fits with the history of MMOs. It also fits with the definitions given by some of the pioneers of MMOs. It even fits with what modern developers are telling us: Bungie does not call Destiny or Destiny 2 an MMO, in fact they outright deny it because they know it isn't!But, lets look at where you are falling down. For some bizarre reason, you seem to believe that playing the game at the same time as someone else counts as being multiplayer. Why? That has never been the definition of multiplayer!
Multiplayer has always meant the ability to play at the same time AND interact with them. If we cannot interact, it is not multiplayer. I can go to https://www.solitr.com/ and play a game of solitaire there, and you could do so at the same time. That would mean we are playing the game concurrently but, without the ability to interact with each other, we are not playing a multiplayer game.
The same is true of Destiny. There is a cap of 16 people in any given instance (or, so I'm told). If you want to interact with any of the other 1000s of people playing the game at the same time as you (concurrent users), you have to leave the game world (instance) and return to a lobby via loading screens, then connect with them and enter their instance. You are never sharing the same game world with more than 16 players at any given moment. If you want to play with a friend who is not in your current instance, there is no possible way for the two of you to play together (multiplayer) without one or both of you leaving the gameworld and loading into a new version of it. If you have 50 friends playing the game, there is no possible way for all 50 of you to meet up in game. So, with a cap of 16 players, the game cannot be defined as massively multiplayer....just normal multiplayer.
And again, there is nothing wrong with that! Destiny as a game is fine. It has a lot of features within it that are similar to standard MMORPG features - quests, leveling, loot, dungeons, raids - so the game will appeal to a lot of MMORPG fans. But, do not confuse it for an MMO, because it isn't. If you do consider it an MMO, then absolutely every single game that has ever had online multiplayer is also an MMO. If you consider that statement to be true, there is no helping you.
Even though multiplayer was only possible through the use of a LAN, thousands of people were playing concurrently.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Poop. Bae means poop in Danish.
However, people turned that word into something good to describe a loved one, so it no longer means poop. That is one example of a word changing definitions.
Also, gay...gay used to mean happy. Now today it obviously has a different meaning.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bae
Says its used on the internet, but I've heard it used in real life.
This is a good definition too
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bae
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul