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Okay WTF is a MMO? Really?

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  • LerxstLerxst Member UncommonPosts: 646
    MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game. 100 players is not massive; I don't give a rat's ass what you include in the game.

    I used to play a MUD that had 150 players and huge dynamics, but would never pretend that 150 ever compared to the thousands on a UO server.

    I've seen Space Station 13 servers with 140 or so players and, again, none of them have ever confused that game as being a massive multiplayer online game.

    MMO has now become a marketing term, losing almost all the meaning of its acronym's individual letters. 

    A game that almost forces you to know people, prior to playing the game, in order to play it online, removes the main element of playing a true M MO. Go ahead and try joining one of these Ark, or Minecraft servers without knowing the rest of the players in that game... it's not fun, or friendly and they have no contractual obligation to let you play there simply because you own the game, unlike an official server on an actual MMO does.
    alivenJamesGoblincraftseeker
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 442
    Honestly there is too many of these threads lately, heres the real answer. There use to be a clear cut answer for this. EQ, EQ2, WoW, DAoC, AO, UO, Aion, Rift, AA. All MMOs, see a trend here? Notice how many are active at a time within a server.

    Marketing teams described battles in games like CoS or BF as massive in scale which in turn went to massive in size which now has blurred the lines to everything is a MMO because marketing says so.

    We all know what a true MMO is and we don't have to keep telling ourselves this over and over. 
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,549
    edited September 2017
    Hi, been playing a lot of Destiny 2 (fun times but grindy).. but did some research..

    So it sounds like a lot of people are saying games that are instance heavy cannot possibly be in any shape or form an MMO because you cant play with 150-200 people at the same time like in say EQ or WoW. The thinking that a MMO is specific to a certain number is kinda like... ehh. IDK. To me its the Experience of playing in a game world with Multiple people. Not just 1 or 2 but Multiple like 20-30 People at least. Then its starting to touch MMO territory.

    Let me debunk the "MMO=Huge Number of people" myth first though..

    Guild Wars 1 is listed as MMORPG but it had a instanced based lobby style of play similar to Destiny? But According to many definitions here its not massive. I bet many are gonna say now that Gw1 is no longer a MMO so they can fit a narrative. The term is broader than you think, and today more descriptive than anything else. Explain to me how Guild Wars1 isnt a MMO. Please. It does not allow 150-200 people per instance.. so please explain that. I will wait. 

    To all the people arguing that "_______ even said its not a MMO":

    Uber is a taxi service, they prefer to be called a "Shared Ride System" but if you look at everything Uber is doing, its a got damn Taxi service. Same thing with MMO.

    No developer wants to call their MMO "Style" game a MMO because the MMO market is all but dead. Hard truth. With the exception of a handful of games its just not smart to brand your new game as that. Even if it is exactly that. It comes with a different set of expectations. 

    Destiny, The Division, Warframe, ESO, TSW, Star Citizen, Guild Wars hell even GTA:O, are all heavy instanced games but with all the MMO features, some have more some have less but the bottom line is you are sharing a game space/world with multiple people at once, some as low as 15, some as high as 100 people per instance. Again this isnt a bad thing! 

    Its like you guys think those games are Borderlands or Gears. There is a difference between a co-op game and a Multiplayer Online Game. You don't have to be a UO or Meridian59 player to realize this. As I said last week..the old definition of MMO does not work for today. Those types of games are not being made anymore and when they do they aren't supported enough. Its funny to me how many of you "Old School" players scream for "vanilla" games but when you get one, not many of you support it.. or maybe you do but there just isn't enough of you? If its the latter then you know its never going to happen because devs/publishers wont waste money on what the minority want, they will always go Majority..

    What I'm getting at is those days of EQ, DAOC, UO are gone but That's a good thing, the MMORPG market needs to change and as I said before the only way to get it is to shake things up..and move forward not backwards. If you want the old school back that's what the emulators are for I guess? 

    BTW before you start, I'm in my 30s and have played nearly every MMO there is since 2000. I love and fully understand what a MMORPG is about, but I also at the same time fully support all the new ways the MMO genre is trying to evolve. Its actually really cool to see a game like Destiny borrow things from classic games like Everquest or WoW.

    No they aren't the same, but they do have much in common. A lot. I could list out all the things they have in common and with the exception of "The Amount of People" at once thing, you would say on paper this sounds the exact same. So all you folks crying about it, dry your tears and cheer up, the future is a lot brighter than you think. Its not the end of MMOS, its a fresh start. 

    So to answer my OP: MMO is a very broad description of a game that has a large world space that you can play in with multiple people.. All the normal MMO tropes must be there and you must be able to play with and randomly meet other players.. no matter if its 20 at a time or 300 at a time..you can still potentially play with thousands of people in the world space.

    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.

    Things need to change in order to grow. 

    PS Edit: I was walking around in D2 on IO doing Patrols when i spotted a group of at least 10 people trying to take down what looked like a world boss. I ran over to help out and I got a alert that said I joined a Heroic fight. I helped the Guardians take it down and they all thanked me for helping since they were all lower levels. After it was over we got our loots and went our separate ways.  Is that not an MMO experience? 
    Post edited by klash2def on
    ExcessionJamesGoblinmmolou
    "PSA: We live in a multicultural world. Nobody is "forcing" diversity. Earth is already Diverse."

    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer
    You've heard what I've heard

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772


    We all know what a true MMO is and we don't have to keep telling ourselves this over and over. 
    and i thought you are try to tell this and other sites (like massivelyop.com) what "true" MMOs are?

    They both classifies Destiny 2 as "MMO shooters/FPS". 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    klash2def said:


    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.


    are you sure? Some people here seems to under the impression that they have final authority on what a MMO is .. ignoring you, the gamelist on this site, the classification of massivelyop, and reviewers on metacritics.

    I personally, i think they are kind of sad in a bubble believing that they are righteous, but hey, be careful. They love to attack you because you have the guts to go up against their gospel.


    klash2def
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    klash2def said:


    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.


    are you sure? Some people here seems to under the impression that they have final authority on what a MMO is .. ignoring you, the gamelist on this site, the classification of massivelyop, and reviewers on metacritics.

    I personally, i think they are kind of sad in a bubble believing that they are righteous, but hey, be careful. They love to attack you because you have the guts to go up against their gospel.


    C'mon, you're not a victim. For years you have gone out of your way to troll and irritate MMO fans with this narrative. It just so happens that "not quite" MMOs have gained popularity and these MMO news sites want to cover it for readership (which makes sense). Same goes for metacritic and reviewers...

    The only "gospel" here is the English language, and this subject is simple:

    Playing with others in the same space = Multiplayer
    Playing online = Online

    The term "Massive" is about the only halfway subjective part of this and you can look up the definition, making whatever intelligent decision you want as to how many players that would be. I honestly find it funny how complex of an issue this is always made. Most things can indeed be complex... yet this one is like saying blue is red ;)
    GdemamiJamesGoblin
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 820
    Though MMORPG still retains the classical meaning, MMO has expanded in meaning beyond that, in fact and in practice, as is amply demonstrated in this forum and others, and beyond, due to the ever changing and expanding nature and variety of the games themselves.

    Such is a common occurrence in living languages and a steadfast denial of it, no matter how loud and long, will not negate or prevent evolution in meaning over time.
    klash2def
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,232
    This topic still going?????

    MMO definition  are the same it always has been, why the fu change it, really??
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,854
    Funny, people go to court all the time to dispute the meaning of this or that.  It takes a judge to decide how he/she understands the meaning of a thing based on past interpretations and history.  The final decision is still not universal and can vary from country to country or even from company to company.  So the answer usually depends on where you are and who you're talking to.  The only absolute is that there are no absolutes, everything is in a state of change, including what defines an MMO.
    Gdemami

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • forcelimaforcelima Member UncommonPosts: 232
    Someone did not get the collectives memo! MMO's are every game but yet at the same time no game.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Aelious said:
    klash2def said:


    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.


    are you sure? Some people here seems to under the impression that they have final authority on what a MMO is .. ignoring you, the gamelist on this site, the classification of massivelyop, and reviewers on metacritics.

    I personally, i think they are kind of sad in a bubble believing that they are righteous, but hey, be careful. They love to attack you because you have the guts to go up against their gospel.


    C'mon, you're not a victim. For years you have gone out of your way to troll and irritate MMO fans with this narrative. It just so happens that "not quite" MMOs have gained popularity and these MMO news sites want to cover it for readership (which makes sense). Same goes for metacritic and reviewers...


    Still .. nothing i said is wrong. Didn't a lot of people here ignore all those lists and reviewers? 
    Didn't those people attack anyone who does not think they have the final say of what a MMO is?

    Now you can explain why a lot of sites & reviewers & players want to broaden what MMO means. But that does not change the fact that they do, and some people here are not happy.

    Now if you are irritated by the truth, well, it is really too bad. I suppose you have the option to stick your head in the sand and ignore everyone who classifies the "not quite" MMOs as MMOs. In fact, are many people here already doing that?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Maurgrim said:
    This topic still going?????

    MMO definition  are the same it always has been, why the fu change it, really??
    Of course. You don't get the memo? This forum is a great place to beat the dead horse.

    And what definition are you using? Certainly not the one used on this site, or on massivelyop.com, unless you believe games like World of Tank has always been defined as a MMO. 


  • cloud3431cloud3431 Member CommonPosts: 9
    "what is a mmo". it's quite self explanatory. but here's the explanation, since you missed it somehow. MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE........now, if you add the actual genre after that, it would be "MMOFPS". seeing how we're talking about a fps, that's would it's supposed to be classified as. if we were talking about an rpg, it would be "MMORPG". the mmo part isn't just exclusive to rpgs. destiny 2 is an mmofps. get over it. i really can't believe someone has to clarify this......
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    edited September 2017
    klash2def said:
    Watching vids on Destiny 2 (im hype yes I know) and I keep seeing the same argument on each comment section.. " FFS DESTINY IS NOT A MMO!" 

    Well, considering the defintion for MMO upon a basic google of the acronym here is what I found.. 


    MMO
    noun
    1. an online video game which can be played by a very large number of people simultaneously
    So if Destiny: Raids, Guilds, Loot Drops, Dailies, Heroics, Weekly, Shared Open Space
    and if MMO: Raids, Guilds, Loot Drops, Dailies, Heroics, Weekly, Shared Open Space

    Then how is Destiny NOT an MMO? I think the term MMO needs to be redefined for the current generation of games because people are still trying to apply a old system to new games which said rules no longer apply. 

    SO in 2017 what do we consider a MMO if Destiny isnt one? Just curious? 
    how big are the raids?  How many people can fit in a single zone together?

    To me, those are the primary factors in determining if a game is an MMO.  too many games are basically lobby games, which we've had for ages.  I could play WC3 or Quake matches against a large list of people.  But only a small number at one time.


    For me, if you can't fit 50 characters in a zone at the same time, it's almost certainly not an MMO.

    JamesGoblin
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    cloud3431 said:
    "what is a mmo". it's quite self explanatory. 
    Obviously either it is not self-explanatory, or people ignore, or don't care, its meaning. Why do you think this is one of the most popular topic on this forum?
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    When you see someone use MMO...massive multiplayer online....just walk away.

    There is no subject....if they are too lazy to properly define the subject how can anyone have a discussion.


  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,883
    edited September 2017
      The People have spoken

    1. Is Destiny 2 an MMO     190 votes
      1. Yes
        18.95%
      2. No
        81.05%

    Eldurian
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,775
    Do you want the evolved current "public Opinion" definition, or the original literal definition?
    Either way, they are all MMOs and yet none are.
    Gdemami
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    cloud3431 said:
    "what is a mmo". it's quite self explanatory. 
    Obviously either it is not self-explanatory, or people ignore, or don't care, its meaning. Why do you think this is one of the most popular topic on this forum?
    Because you keep bringing it up.
    MadFrenchieRhoklawJamesGoblin
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,145
    Millions of people play online poker, so poker is the ultimate MMO. Right?
    laseritJamesGoblin
  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972
    Millions of people play online poker, so poker is the ultimate MMO. Right?
    As is Tic Tac Toe when played online. There's always someone bored at work, ready for a quick couple of rounds. One of the oldest of the original MMOs.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,304
    Who even cares at this point. Play the games you like, whether that be an MMORPG or an FPS or a farming simulator. Just enjoy what you play. I like Destiny 2, I like ESO, I have my own opinion on what an MMO is, but I don't honestly care. I don't see why everyone seems to.
  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825
    @klash2def
    Guild Wars 1 is a CORPG. 
    Anet itself conjured up the name due to the fact the game was instanced and did not have a persistent world. 

    I've always determined the "Massive" part of a game based on the number of players who simultaneously are capable of doing something together in-game. In most games I see with the MMORPG-Label, most of the content is designed to be for single parties. Massive to me means a point in the game where entire regions come under attack and all the players in that region/zone have to work together against swarms of enemies. Guild Wars 2 had this during the Scarlet Briar Invasions.

    As it stands: 

    Typical MMO Dungeon is 4 - 8 players 
    Typical FPS Team Deathmatch Party = 8  - 16 players (per team)

    When I see a shooter, I find it to be more "Massive" in the fact more people do things together than the amount of people who do things together in MMORPGs, excluding the minor percentage of endgame content that requires multiple parties to actually win a map. 

    The Genre to me is becoming "Less Massive" and more "Solo-Friendly" by the year. 
    Shooters are becoming more "Massive" and more "group-oriented" by the year. 

    klash2def
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited September 2017
    Who even cares at this point. Play the games you like, whether that be an MMORPG or an FPS or a farming simulator. Just enjoy what you play. I like Destiny 2, I like ESO, I have my own opinion on what an MMO is, but I don't honestly care. I don't see why everyone seems to.
    I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't think anyone who recognizes the difference between multiplayer and massively multiplayer will straight up refuse to play a game because it's mislabeled.

    It's about clearly delineating between the success of smaller multiplayer and the success of massively multiplayer.  Lumping them in skews the market view of each genre, as well as providing misleading views about what specific game mechanics work well in one genre or the other.  It's also a term that was created specifically to delineate between two different types of multiplayer; if massively multiplayer is the same as CoD, there's no reason to even have the label massively.  Just call everything multiplayer and be done with it.

    That wouldn't work so hot for sites like this one or massivelyop.
    GdemamiJamesGoblin

    image
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,995
    At some point , i don't even care what mean for MMORPG and just hope all those sucked games extinct like the big *** dinosaur off the face of earth .

    evolution screwed up , go back to the start maybe better chose .


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