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Okay WTF is a MMO? Really?

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  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,597
    From what I saw in the "beta"(keep that in mind as I give my opinion), I'd use SWL's similar term, and call it a "shared world FPS".

    It is NOT an MMO.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,000
    Forgrimm said:
    This is an MMO. Roughly 200 players all in the same non-instanced area fighting the same world boss.




    So we're trotting out the measuring sticks, now?

    Here's 30 pilots furballing in a physics-based twitch combat MMORPG:


    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,989
    Forgrimm said:
    This is an MMO. Roughly 200 players all in the same non-instanced area fighting the same world boss.




    So we're trotting out the measuring sticks, now?

    No, just offering an example to provide some clarity to the confused people.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,000
    Forgrimm said:
    Forgrimm said:
    This is an MMO. Roughly 200 players all in the same non-instanced area fighting the same world boss.




    So we're trotting out the measuring sticks, now?

    No, just offering an example to provide some clarity to the confused people.
    Hard to believe people really would be that confused about it.  Maybe I'm just "old" (36).

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,497
    An MMO is a game that allows a massive amount of players to play the game within the same virtual world as one another. 


    You can arrive at this definition by using english comprehension on the words "massively multiplayer online". Or you arrive at this definition by reading Richard Garriott's and Raph Kosters thoughts on the subject (two of the pioneers of the genre). Or you can arrive at this definition by examining the earlier examples of MMOs. 


    Whatever way you get there, that is the definition. The problem is, there is no hard number, hence the arguments. What does "massively" mean? It is an observation of size, meaning bigger than. So, lets look at multiplayer online games. How many people do they normally support? Usually anywhere between 2 and 128 people. What number is massively bigger than 128? 

    Because massively multiplayer both has no set number and is relative to the current crop of standard multiplayer games, it is a moving target. When Garriott and Koster were first defining the genre, their number was 250. So, by their definition nearly 20 years ago, if your game could support 250 people within the same virtual environment, it was an MMO. 

    I'm not sure if 250 is "massively" bigger than 128, it's less than double, but 250 is certainly massively bigger than standard multiplayer online games from 20 years ago. I would personally say the number should be 1000, but hell, even 250 would be good these days. 



    So, if we use 250 players within the same virtual world (i.e. multiplayer), does Destiny meet the criteria? Lol, nope. The heavy use of instancing and the lobby means it is impossible to ever share the same virtual world with more than a handful of players (cap of 16 in Destiny 1?). If I want to play with a friend, we cannot just arrange a location and meet up there, because we are most likely in different virtual worlds (instances). We will have to group up via the lobby, then the game would create a new virtual world for us to inhabit. 

    The same applies to mobas. How many people can you have in the same virtual world? 6? 10?


    Please note that the definition is down to number of players within a virtual world. It does not mean you have to be able to group with with all of them at the same time. It does not mean that they all need to be on screen at the same time. Just that they exist within the same virtual environment. 

    So, LotRO for example. It is an MMO. Whilst the engine sucks with large amounts of players (50+) in the same area, if there are 1000 people connected to the server, any one of them can contact anyone else and say "lets meet here" and they will both be able to walk there, without having to change virtual worlds, and be able to see each other. The 1000 people all exist within the same virtual environment, even if they can't all fit on the screen at the same time without the game/server breaking. 



    Beyond the actual number (250-1000), the biggest grey area comes with instancing and persistence. Games like SW:TOR and ESO heavily use instancing, the first due to a shit engine, the second due to wanting a megaserver. Are these MMOs? SW:TOR only seems capable of handling about 50 people per instance and often times you can say "meet here" and it'll work because there is only one instance currently running. ESO, whilst it has bigger instances, has many more of them so it is harder. 

    I personally would say they're MMOs, simply because you can encounter 250+ real people in the game world without having to go to a lobby or manually change the virtual world you're in. However, were I a game dev I would avoid using instancing because it takes us away from the whole purpose of the genre - massively multiplayer. 


    Now, why is there such disagreement on the definition of MMO?

    1) Ignorance / stupidity - a lot of people are ignorant of the history of MMOs and thus cannot pick out the unique feature. A lot of people lack good quality english comprehension, so can't understand the words "massively multiplayer online". 

    2) Click-bait - the genre is doing badly. By all metrics available to us, the genre is in bad state. Players are leaving in droves for other genres and developers have massively scaled back dev work on new MMOs. Sites like this one and massivelyop have admittedly misusing the term MMO in order to generate traffic. If you actually look around, you will notice that the vast majority of misuse of the term comes from the media, not the players or developers. 

    3) Matching Features - MMO means one thing: number of players within a virtual environment. But MMORPG means a whole lot of other things. Look at the feature list of WoW, SW:TOR, FFXIV etc. Then look at the feature list of Destiny or The Division. Pretty damn similar right? So, why not lump them in the same genre? I mean if people like WoW, surely they'll like a game that has 90% of the same features? A lot of people do this, and the comparison is valid, however without the massive number of players, you're describing an MORPG, not an MMORPG. Its a subtle difference, but one often overlooked. 

    4) Trolling - some people just like to troll and this is an easy subject. @nariusseldon freely admits this is why he does it. You will never, ever see him actually post his own opinion on what defines an MMO, instead he will just link to other sites (even ones proven to have no credibility) in order to keep the argument going. 
    GdemamiJamesGoblin
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774


    4) Trolling - some people just like to troll and this is an easy subject. @nariusseldon freely admits this is why he does it. You will never, ever see him actually post his own opinion on what defines an MMO, instead he will just link to other sites (even ones proven to have no credibility) in order to keep the argument going. 
    Hey .. that is not the ONLY thing i do. I also cite you and point out your logical mistakes (like this one).

    BTW, did you just admit that what defines an MMO is based on opinions? (and i quote "You will never, ever see him actually post his own opinion on what defines an MMO").

    So what is your opinion on what defines a MMO? You will answer, right, since you are not like me. And also tell me, why is your opinion superior that those that classify games in the gamelist on this site? Inquiring minds want to know.
  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825
    Its not easy to set up parties of 16 - 32 players that are well geared in an MMO.
    However, its super easy to just join a shooter game that has teams of 16 - 32 players killing each other in a large map. 

    That being said. 
    I believe that it requires a MASSIVE effort and attempt to make and maintain a persistent online world, but what the player encounters 99% of the time is anything but massive. 
    JamesGoblin
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,793
    I hope none of you guys are biologists or medic. I don't want someone cutting people thinking "well, anything is anything, fuck all the terminology I had to learn".

    A term is coined with a purpose. A music genre is defined by a group of features, so does game genres. Sometimes the definition is broad enough to gather lots of games with different perspectives, sometimes the definition is strict enough that does not require any other explanation.

    If I say roguelike it is roguelike. If you don't know what roguelike is stop being arrogant prick and go read what it means. 

    There is no blurry line, there is no question about what a term is - what does exist is arrogance.

    There is no blurry line in studies about how old our planet is, there is an estimate number based on evidence which requires clinical attention to become more and more specific, no matter how much noise creationists makes - that does not mean you can throw everything out of the window because someone said "the scientist are always changing stuff, they are never sure of anything!" while waving their cane around complaining about the weather.

    There is no blurry lines about the shape of our planet, no matter how much noise flat Earth theorists make. Your ignorance do not change things, stop.

    There is no blurry line about what EDM is no matter how broad the term can be. What does exist are bands which goes beyond it, requiring a more specific definition for total comprehension. A non-EDM song still a non-EDM song no matter the fact that something is "EDM plus something else". Someone putting chicken noises on the song following the concept of EDM won't change what EDM means, also won't change other EDM songs and bands, it will create a sub-genre, when such terminology deems necessary for better comprehension.

    To index something, to properly index something, is very very important for history of anything. Weapons, metallurgy, cars and so on. Why with entertainment would be different?

    I don't think the problem here is what MMO means.

    I think the real problem is that some people just can't let some things go.

    If the term is old and can't be used anymore then let it die instead of putting make up and a cheap dress just to appeal a certain audience as a bait&switch marketing thing - which is exactly what those mobas are calling themselves mmo's.
    [Deleted User]Gdemami
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  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,097
    I have the answer to this, and it really can't be disputed by any person in their right mind (trolls aren't people)
    MMO is an acronym  
    Nyctelios
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    I have the answer to this, and it really can't be disputed by any person in their right mind (trolls aren't people)
    MMO is an acronym  
    Wait, I had been saying "Emmmo" this whole time, but it's really "M-M-O"????


    DAMN IT! ;) 
    [Deleted User]JamesGoblin

    image
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    I have the answer to this, and it really can't be disputed by any person in their right mind (trolls aren't people)
    MMO is an acronym  
    Wait, I had been saying "Emmmo" this whole time, but it's really "M-M-O"????


    DAMN IT! ;) 
    MMO is an initialism, unless you're pronouncing it like @MadFrenchie. Then it's an acronym.

    Details...details... ;-)
    PhaserlightMadFrenchie
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,263
    MMO = A game where you see a ton of players in the same city hubs, mostly AFK, lagging the hell out of you. Even with all those players, you'll most often play MMO's under solo-play for most of their progression.

    RIP.
    Excession
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Sephiroso said:
    All of you need Jesus.
    I gave up Jesus for Lent. 
    Phaserlight
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    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Nyctelios said:
    I hope none of you guys are biologists or medic. I don't want someone cutting people thinking "well, anything is anything, fuck all the terminology I had to learn".


    wow .. you equate biologist and medic with some dudes talking about video games on the internet? LoL.

    Given that logic, why do you come to a website that has a game list that, by the opinions of many here, commit the "anything is anything" sin (unless you agree with their classification of Destiny 2 as a MMOFPS)?

    So i guess you want your medic to use accurate terminology but not your websites? 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    I have the answer to this, and it really can't be disputed by any person in their right mind (trolls aren't people)
    MMO is an acronym  

    Do you include the persons who classify games on the gamelist on this site? They classify destiny 2 as a "MMOFPS", you know. 
  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,097
    I have the answer to this, and it really can't be disputed by any person in their right mind (trolls aren't people)
    MMO is an acronym  
    Wait, I had been saying "Emmmo" this whole time, but it's really "M-M-O"????


    DAMN IT! ;) 
    MMO is an initialism, unless you're pronouncing it like @MadFrenchie. Then it's an acronym.

    Details...details... ;-)
    How am I just learning this now at 47 . . . emmmmmbarrasing! 
    MadFrenchiePhaserlightJamesGoblin
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    I have the answer to this, and it really can't be disputed by any person in their right mind (trolls aren't people)
    MMO is an acronym  
    Wait, I had been saying "Emmmo" this whole time, but it's really "M-M-O"????


    DAMN IT! ;) 
    MMO is an initialism, unless you're pronouncing it like @MadFrenchie. Then it's an acronym.

    Details...details... ;-)
    How am I just learning this now at 47 . . . emmmmmbarrasing! 
    Don't worry. It will change again, and you can relearn it soon. 
  • LerxstLerxst Member UncommonPosts: 646
    MASSIVE Multiplayer Online game. 100 players is not massive; I don't give a rat's ass what you include in the game.

    I used to play a MUD that had 150 players and huge dynamics, but would never pretend that 150 ever compared to the thousands on a UO server.

    I've seen Space Station 13 servers with 140 or so players and, again, none of them have ever confused that game as being a massive multiplayer online game.

    MMO has now become a marketing term, losing almost all the meaning of its acronym's individual letters. 

    A game that almost forces you to know people, prior to playing the game, in order to play it online, removes the main element of playing a true M MO. Go ahead and try joining one of these Ark, or Minecraft servers without knowing the rest of the players in that game... it's not fun, or friendly and they have no contractual obligation to let you play there simply because you own the game, unlike an official server on an actual MMO does.
    alivenJamesGoblincraftseeker
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 494
    Honestly there is too many of these threads lately, heres the real answer. There use to be a clear cut answer for this. EQ, EQ2, WoW, DAoC, AO, UO, Aion, Rift, AA. All MMOs, see a trend here? Notice how many are active at a time within a server.

    Marketing teams described battles in games like CoS or BF as massive in scale which in turn went to massive in size which now has blurred the lines to everything is a MMO because marketing says so.

    We all know what a true MMO is and we don't have to keep telling ourselves this over and over. 
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,733
    edited September 2017
    Hi, been playing a lot of Destiny 2 (fun times but grindy).. but did some research..

    So it sounds like a lot of people are saying games that are instance heavy cannot possibly be in any shape or form an MMO because you cant play with 150-200 people at the same time like in say EQ or WoW. The thinking that a MMO is specific to a certain number is kinda like... ehh. IDK. To me its the Experience of playing in a game world with Multiple people. Not just 1 or 2 but Multiple like 20-30 People at least. Then its starting to touch MMO territory.

    Let me debunk the "MMO=Huge Number of people" myth first though..

    Guild Wars 1 is listed as MMORPG but it had a instanced based lobby style of play similar to Destiny? But According to many definitions here its not massive. I bet many are gonna say now that Gw1 is no longer a MMO so they can fit a narrative. The term is broader than you think, and today more descriptive than anything else. Explain to me how Guild Wars1 isnt a MMO. Please. It does not allow 150-200 people per instance.. so please explain that. I will wait. 

    To all the people arguing that "_______ even said its not a MMO":

    Uber is a taxi service, they prefer to be called a "Shared Ride System" but if you look at everything Uber is doing, its a got damn Taxi service. Same thing with MMO.

    No developer wants to call their MMO "Style" game a MMO because the MMO market is all but dead. Hard truth. With the exception of a handful of games its just not smart to brand your new game as that. Even if it is exactly that. It comes with a different set of expectations. 

    Destiny, The Division, Warframe, ESO, TSW, Star Citizen, Guild Wars hell even GTA:O, are all heavy instanced games but with all the MMO features, some have more some have less but the bottom line is you are sharing a game space/world with multiple people at once, some as low as 15, some as high as 100 people per instance. Again this isnt a bad thing! 

    Its like you guys think those games are Borderlands or Gears. There is a difference between a co-op game and a Multiplayer Online Game. You don't have to be a UO or Meridian59 player to realize this. As I said last week..the old definition of MMO does not work for today. Those types of games are not being made anymore and when they do they aren't supported enough. Its funny to me how many of you "Old School" players scream for "vanilla" games but when you get one, not many of you support it.. or maybe you do but there just isn't enough of you? If its the latter then you know its never going to happen because devs/publishers wont waste money on what the minority want, they will always go Majority..

    What I'm getting at is those days of EQ, DAOC, UO are gone but That's a good thing, the MMORPG market needs to change and as I said before the only way to get it is to shake things up..and move forward not backwards. If you want the old school back that's what the emulators are for I guess? 

    BTW before you start, I'm in my 30s and have played nearly every MMO there is since 2000. I love and fully understand what a MMORPG is about, but I also at the same time fully support all the new ways the MMO genre is trying to evolve. Its actually really cool to see a game like Destiny borrow things from classic games like Everquest or WoW.

    No they aren't the same, but they do have much in common. A lot. I could list out all the things they have in common and with the exception of "The Amount of People" at once thing, you would say on paper this sounds the exact same. So all you folks crying about it, dry your tears and cheer up, the future is a lot brighter than you think. Its not the end of MMOS, its a fresh start. 

    So to answer my OP: MMO is a very broad description of a game that has a large world space that you can play in with multiple people.. All the normal MMO tropes must be there and you must be able to play with and randomly meet other players.. no matter if its 20 at a time or 300 at a time..you can still potentially play with thousands of people in the world space.

    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.

    Things need to change in order to grow. 

    PS Edit: I was walking around in D2 on IO doing Patrols when i spotted a group of at least 10 people trying to take down what looked like a world boss. I ran over to help out and I got a alert that said I joined a Heroic fight. I helped the Guardians take it down and they all thanked me for helping since they were all lower levels. After it was over we got our loots and went our separate ways.  Is that not an MMO experience? 
    Post edited by klash2def on
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774


    We all know what a true MMO is and we don't have to keep telling ourselves this over and over. 
    and i thought you are try to tell this and other sites (like massivelyop.com) what "true" MMOs are?

    They both classifies Destiny 2 as "MMO shooters/FPS". 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    klash2def said:


    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.


    are you sure? Some people here seems to under the impression that they have final authority on what a MMO is .. ignoring you, the gamelist on this site, the classification of massivelyop, and reviewers on metacritics.

    I personally, i think they are kind of sad in a bubble believing that they are righteous, but hey, be careful. They love to attack you because you have the guts to go up against their gospel.


    klash2def
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    klash2def said:


    Destiny is actually a MMO because the MMO today is not the same MMO from the year 2000.


    are you sure? Some people here seems to under the impression that they have final authority on what a MMO is .. ignoring you, the gamelist on this site, the classification of massivelyop, and reviewers on metacritics.

    I personally, i think they are kind of sad in a bubble believing that they are righteous, but hey, be careful. They love to attack you because you have the guts to go up against their gospel.


    C'mon, you're not a victim. For years you have gone out of your way to troll and irritate MMO fans with this narrative. It just so happens that "not quite" MMOs have gained popularity and these MMO news sites want to cover it for readership (which makes sense). Same goes for metacritic and reviewers...

    The only "gospel" here is the English language, and this subject is simple:

    Playing with others in the same space = Multiplayer
    Playing online = Online

    The term "Massive" is about the only halfway subjective part of this and you can look up the definition, making whatever intelligent decision you want as to how many players that would be. I honestly find it funny how complex of an issue this is always made. Most things can indeed be complex... yet this one is like saying blue is red ;)
    GdemamiJamesGoblin
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,029
    Though MMORPG still retains the classical meaning, MMO has expanded in meaning beyond that, in fact and in practice, as is amply demonstrated in this forum and others, and beyond, due to the ever changing and expanding nature and variety of the games themselves.

    Such is a common occurrence in living languages and a steadfast denial of it, no matter how loud and long, will not negate or prevent evolution in meaning over time.
    klash2def
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,271
    This topic still going?????

    MMO definition  are the same it always has been, why the fu change it, really??
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