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The Hand Grenade and the Hiding Place - MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited August 2017 in News & Features Discussion

imageThe Hand Grenade and the Hiding Place - MMORPG.com

This is family meeting time. No, you’re not in trouble - we all are. I’m not going to yell at you, but this going to be like eating your green beans: you may not like it, but it’s good for you and might make you a wee bit gassy.

Read the full story here



¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


Gdemami

Comments

  • AvarixAvarix Member RarePosts: 665
    Most comment sections on games have become quite toxic, I agree. I think it's to correct the imbalance of reviewers though. Every site I visit now goes out of it's way to put positive spin on the negatives a game has. Far too often do games receive 8+ scores while glossing over it's flaws. There will be paragraphs of praise while negativity is kept to a sentence that is quickly brushed aside.

    I now trust comment sections more than the reviews they're written under. Yes, they are usually a cesspool of toxicity, but they also make me a more informed consumer. These are the people I trust to not hold back on a game's negative attributes. The gaming industry may not like them, but as a consumer I love them.
    CogohiIselinBlaze_RockerXarkoGreyhavenpantaroNordicApacheWylfMadFrenchiebartoni33and 2 others.
  • XarkoXarko Member EpicPosts: 1,180
    I disagree. Nothing is more fun than to see an otherwise divided community band together to collectively take a shit on a terrible product. The amount of time and effort some people invest in making various content related to these is amazing. DIdnt you notice how much actually fun stuff is related to all these "bad" things? I saw some hilarious No Man's Sky videos and tons of great Andromeda memes. It makes people creative more than ever.
    GreyhavenpantaroNordicApache
  • XarkoXarko Member EpicPosts: 1,180



    Stizzled said:

    It's not so fun when your actually a fan of one of those games and you can't have a conversation with other fans in subreddits or forums without people posting endless negative comments and memes. Like any overplayed joke it eventually gets old and just turns pathetic.


    I've never considered the struggle of being a fan of low quality products. I still dont.
    GreyhavenpantaroNordicApachebartoni33huntercoAeander
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    edited August 2017

    Aori said:

    It is also important to not confuse toxicity for passion. Which many people do. Though passion can be toxic, still a lot of the time it isn't done out of maliciousness. The people who rush in are a reliable source of information, the consumers opinion no matter how dirty is valuable when making an informed decision.



    I was with you up to the toxicity/passion part.

    being toxic is being toxic.

    They give the hobby a bad name and create an image of a foul, misogynistic, racist, brats. Or some part thereof.
    SBFordNordicApachebartoni33infomatzhuntercoConstantineMerusCazriel
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  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,125
    Not sure why but reading that reminded me of a Buzzfeed article.
    GreyhavenXarkoAllerleirauh[Deleted User]NordicApachewinghaven1
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  • GreyhavenGreyhaven Member UncommonPosts: 38
    edited August 2017
    I think a bigger issue is than any perceived toxicity is incessant drumbeat of the pc conformist ideology many so called gaming news sites are pushing.

    Tolerance and diversity!!! (unless you don't agree with us then you are "insert trope here") I think that more than anything has fueled toxicity in the past few years, more so now that developers especially of the indy variety has become more invested in pushing 'the message" than entertaining it's customers.....but whatever, I fully expect this comment to be deleted or heavily edited like so many inconvenient replies before.

    I think one day after the second great video game crash developers and gaming editors will take a step back and maybe start viewing games not as a vehicle for propaganda, ideology, or even an artistic statement but as sheer entertainment. But don't feel bad, Hollywood and the publishing industry need to learn the same hard lessons.
    bartoni33
  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
    maskedweaselXarkoSovrathAllerleirauh[Deleted User]infomatzhuntercoSiphaedCazriel


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • XarkoXarko Member EpicPosts: 1,180
    I never took you for a murder supporter, Suzie!
    SBFordbartoni33DavodtheTutt
  • NordicApacheNordicApache Member UncommonPosts: 134
    Well when we actually see the gaming journalists start writing accurate reviews and critiques maybe the communities that follow them will do the same. What do you expect when the majority of your fellow journalists provide verbal fellatio to developers of shitty products leading the community to falsely believe it's worth their time and money?

    At this point I trust the toxic comment sections more than industry journalists and game reviewers. Most want and need to receive these products for free and developers are NOT going to freely hand out products to the industry if they provide a critique that does not suit their agenda.
    TalonsinWylfbartoni33GreyhavenXarko
  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
    And @DMKano wins the pri......oh wait...there isn't one. But how astute of you to notice. ;)
    [Deleted User]


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I am tired so can't do a full read or pay attention to at this moment but one idea caught my mind.

    The mention of critique versus criticism.This has two parts.
    1 Claiming no basis for criticism,sometimes needs no warrant at all,just an unbiased common sense look see will tell you if something is utter garbage without dissecting with proof.Notice the word "sometimes" that does not mean always as some like to construe things,twist words around and such.
    2 It is VERY hard to critique comments that predominantly sound like advertisement comments with really zero substance.Point being,it is really tough to critique what doesn't exist,when for example,someone might say something like idk,how about "great for the industry"MANY months prior to any game being played.
    For one thing we can't comment fairly or factually if we cannot play a game but my point is that neither should a writer or website employee.

    I look at things from a real life perspective,i know how people discuss things in real life and they NEVER do it sounding like an advertisement,posting links and costs to bu ya game etc etc.We discuss THE GAME,we start usually with good and bad but often ,especially on this site,we just hear good good ,great,you SHOULD buy this game etc etc.

    So the overall picture be it journalism or a website or a particular writer is that if a speech sounds like an advertisement instead of a discussion,it looks bad,like real bad to the point of trying to lie or deceive it's readers.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,097

    SBFord said:




    Reminds me of an In Living Color MTV Rocks the Vote parody skit :)
    [Deleted User]
  • WylfWylf Member UncommonPosts: 376
    I'm filing this one under wishful thinking. The thoughts not bad. Just unattainable, at least IMHO.
    hunterco
  • DavodtheTuttDavodtheTutt Member UncommonPosts: 415
    I think the worst case I've seen was the trashing of a cute little mobile game called "Talking Angela." It was just a teen-aged animated cartoon cat girl sitting at a Parisian cafe and she would chat with you. Cute.

    Well, apparently some people who were letting their little children play with it found some of the questions creepy or suspicious -- and I suppose you could look at it that way if you had a 10-year-old having a conversation with a character that was old enough to go to Paris and become an intern in the fashion industry, and was also a cat who enjoyed petting, and was a teen girl who liked to talk about boyfriends and such.

    But what really seemed to set all hell loose on it was a report or two that the game had been hacked and some creepy perverts were spying on kids and talking to them through the app. I'm pretty sure this would have been impossible, and I know some of the things people were saying were impossible -- such as you could see into the pervert's room by looking into Angela's eyes. Nonsense.

    But somehow the urban legends caught on and suddenly the poor little game was SWAMPED in negative reviews, many by people who didn't even have the game but had just heard the rumors, or had looked in Angela's eyes and let their imaginations run away with them.

    I think I've seen almost as bad responses to other games that are in development. One in particular I tried and found fairly comparable to most games, perhaps a little disappointing, but it hadn't come out yet. But the flames from the people who'd supported it financially were venomous. They just couldn't seem to find words strong enough for how horrible the game was, and it was about to be released so it should have everything they dreamed, but no, the graphics were outdated (horrors!) the combat system was unsatisfying, OH EVERYTHING was BAD BAD BAD...

    I can understand being upset, but do people really have to go to ranting and raving?
    [Deleted User]infomatzhunterco
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    edited September 2017


    I think the worst case I've seen was the trashing of a cute little mobile game called "Talking Angela." It was just a teen-aged animated cartoon cat girl sitting at a Parisian cafe and she would chat with you. Cute.



    Well, apparently some people who were letting their little children play with it found some of the questions creepy or suspicious -- and I suppose you could look at it that way if you had a 10-year-old having a conversation with a character that was old enough to go to Paris and become an intern in the fashion industry, and was also a cat who enjoyed petting, and was a teen girl who liked to talk about boyfriends and such.



    But what really seemed to set all hell loose on it was a report or two that the game had been hacked and some creepy perverts were spying on kids and talking to them through the app. I'm pretty sure this would have been impossible, and I know some of the things people were saying were impossible -- such as you could see into the pervert's room by looking into Angela's eyes. Nonsense.



    But somehow the urban legends caught on and suddenly the poor little game was SWAMPED in negative reviews, many by people who didn't even have the game but had just heard the rumors, or had looked in Angela's eyes and let their imaginations run away with them.



    I think I've seen almost as bad responses to other games that are in development. One in particular I tried and found fairly comparable to most games, perhaps a little disappointing, but it hadn't come out yet. But the flames from the people who'd supported it financially were venomous. They just couldn't seem to find words strong enough for how horrible the game was, and it was about to be released so it should have everything they dreamed, but no, the graphics were outdated (horrors!) the combat system was unsatisfying, OH EVERYTHING was BAD BAD BAD...



    I can understand being upset, but do people really have to go to ranting and raving?



    Social justice warriors are always looking for things to be offended by and if you're always looking, chances are you'll conjure something up, real or not. But then these are the same people who seem to feel it's the rest of society's job to make sure they feel more comfortable and announcing, "I'm offended" is their way of crying out for mommy's help.

    NordicApacheGreyhaven
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825


    The MMORPG genre has for a long time become the victim of Gaming Gentrification. A lot of the old school heads who made the genre possible by being the early supporters of the genre and toughing it out, building expensive rigs ranging way back then from $2000 - $4000 in the Early 90s to Early 2000s had to deal with the genre changing to cater to anyone who had money; Identity in the genre not just being lost, but being completely transformed....

    Now the genre is a full 180 degree on what we find in-game and what is expected. Even the business models have changed, but who cares about opinions from a group of maybe 100 players who each played games for 10 - 20 years within the genre, and some have coded and worked in the gaming industry. Nah, we don't count because for every single intelligent thought any one of them have, there are at least 1000+ people who are willing to use their Debit Cards to back up and give validity to their opinions.

    Its like playing Civilization V and having Gandhi tell you "I back my claims with nuclear weapons"

    Its amazing that when people call for peace and consideration, the ones who are helped the most are not the oppressed, but the oppressors who have more time, money, power, and energy to recover a lot faster and continue their personal agenda.

    In regards to your four points:

    1) Examining Motivation: Respect is a two-way street and developers themselves are not about respect. They are about making as much money as possible and getting away with it, which is why nearly 20% of all our case law is in the area of Commerce. I can be direct and not be mean, but we also live in an ad populum world where if enough people believe you are being mean, enough people will punish you.

    There are five stages of hatred, in the fourth stage of hatred.... authority and people choose to support the hatred as a measure to retain order, society, and opinion intact, rather than commit to what is right, the survival of the society takes precedence even if such hatred is carried out in unified fashion.

    2) Taking Ownership

    We as gamers are the consumers. We are the customer. While the sources online in which we get our news from are intended to illicit a certain response. When I read an Article on this site, I believe this site is linked directly to the developers...so the purpose of this site is to promote MMORPGs, which means regardless if a game is good or bad, it will be represented here. This also means that this site's survival depends on delivering news even if there is none about games. Lack of news is a reason why so much hardware has been covered....

    Take ownership in admitting that reciting the same crap over and over again eventually gets old. Not trying to insult you.

    Also, Taking ownership is a two-way street.
    We are ALWAYS forced as GAMERS and CONSUMER to take ownership while developers and publishers make up idiotic excuses to their mess ups.

    That is not fair.
    Are they God? What makes them Special enough to get away with anything and then pin the blame to us or are market when they tell the developers that as publishers our market was too stupid to "Appreciate" their game when we actually were smart enough to point out all its flaws and spread it to the four corners of the world!

    So many MMOs have decent stories and they come to the U.S and what we get is a shitty, translated, censorship-crapped game that is far away from the original with the Asian market thinking we will let it slide simply because a female character looks hot in a skirt, and their game is FREE TO PLAY and loaded with PvP.

    3) Patience is important. Reality is important. No amount of patience is going to stop a situation from unfolding. Time does not stand still simply because a person chooses to be patient. Patience is dependent on many factors that alone patience is meaningless.

    4) Slowing down is a nice thing to do. So why is it that people in the west do not slow down and usually attack the same thing over and over again?

    Its because the west learned the hard way on what the difference is between a good game and bad game and we are burnt out on spending our time filtering out the good from the bad. Asian Developers think we will try anything they send our way and commit to it?

    Remember when it was Nintendo and SEGA that ruled the world? All Japanese Consoles. Then came out the Playstation, Still Japanese... then the X-Box. That was when the west took a stand and said "Here are our games, welcome to a competing global market!" and even better was when the Japanese retreated into Handheld Gaming just to find out that while the latest nintendo hanheld surely is a buzz in Japan, The iPAD and iPhones Obliterated Japanese handhelds. Thanks to Valve's Steam, they are forced to release some times Localized to an American or Western Market without the tricks that occurred in the 90s and 2000s.

    The same is true with MMORPGs.
    We were told we couldn't cut it in the gaming world at a conference in 2003. Then we came out with WoW and all of a sudden.....everyone is trying to clone WoW, and you know what? the MMO Population gave those games a chance and many of them FAILED MISERABLY! to the point they are forgotten!

    So now, Westerners know the pattern almost intimately of how a game release from East makes it to the West. How a game rises through its hype, what is dealt with in-game, and how it all comes crashing down 6 months to a year later. We also understand the pattern associated with being surrounded by a super saturated genre where Chinese, Japanese, and Korean Developers are trying to send anything our way regardless of quality in order to make a buck..

    So yea!
    Your advice is great...
    Maybe the Developers should SLOW DOWN and actually Quality Control their games and actually put a little better effort into making them nice. Maybe they should Slow down and try to rationalize why cutting corners to save on costs is bad for a game. Maybe if they slow down we might end this dark age of crappy, run-off-the-mill games and maybe be exposed to something special.

    Maybe if Publishers Slow down and do their work right, we could get properly translated games that will portray and deliver the story with the depth intended in our language.

    See, this advice you gave out is nice
    and I like your threat...

    But it goes both ways.
    We are the consumer and the gamer...
    We listen and follow developer and publisher PR almost with God-like Faith.
    We give them millions of chances and we follow them to the ends of the Earth like Foot Soldiers

    while they kick us to the curb the first chance they get.
    Once again. We are the consumer and the gamer who pays into the product.
    They are publisher/developer.

    Your four points go BOTH WAYS, not one way.
    Stop making it out to look like its always the fault of the gamer, because that is what I felt like.
    NordicApache
  • srobisrobi Member CommonPosts: 3
    Without demos to play you can only trust torrents. Try it and pay for it. Most games nowadays are meant to be played co-op, multi. You try the single player then buy it if you like it. The 2 hour before refund in steam is good, but not enough especially if you pls RTS or RPG
  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,125
    @OG_Zorvan his day job is working at buzzfeed.
    Greyhaven[Deleted User]
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Tiller said:
    @OG_Zorvan his day job is working at buzzfeed.
    Likely story!

    image
  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,455
    A little late to this but the reason a lot of gamers don't trust "game journalists" is because of the relationship they often must have with the gaming industry. I don't think it's anything as blatant as a company paying a site like this with an envelope full of cash or whatever for positive reviews but they do pay...with access. Access to interviews. Access to hands on previews. Access to game footage etc. Without all of that, gaming sites die. So, if the gaming site gives too many negative reviews or criticizes a game company's practices they risk losing access. It's not like a company hasn't put pressure on a gaming site before. We all remember what happened to Jeff Gerstmann, who was fired from Gamespot after complaints from the publisher for giving a negative review of Kane and Lynch. I highly doubt that was an isolated incident and that it hasn't happened since.
    Greyhaven[Deleted User]

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