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Player's vendor vs Auction House , will you still open your own vendor eventhough there is AH ?

iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,129
Player's vendor , old MMORPG player , free tax and AFK all day long
AH , the modern fast and quick , there is no need to meet with other , have tax and you don't need to login to sell stuff .

So the question is if a game have 2 system at same time , will you still open vendor to sell stuff ?

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Comments

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,198
    edited August 2017
    For me, that entirely depends on the type of game and the social dynamics of the community.  In a hub-based grinder (ex: WOW), I'd go auction house. In a more sandbox-themed or interaction-focused game (ex: 2nd Life, UO) , I'd probably set up a shop. 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    For those 2 systems to work you need the right fee/tax at the AH. Enough so it is worth to walk around in stores looking for the item. Too much tax and no-one use the AH, too little and no-one bothers shopping.

    My guess is that about 33% is the right amount but you need to play test it and adjust until you get about 50-50.

    Another trick is to limit or skip the preview function at the AH but allow player shops to display stuff on manequins and in display cases. I think stores should have those in any case so players can go window shopping, MMOs missed that point so far.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Yes. A great example of this is ArcheAge. Usually I'm flipping bulk resources as fast as I can when market fluctuations are in favor of buying/selling a particular resource. In this instance I am always going to use the auction house and eat the tax fee because if I'm selling something for 150%+ of its usual value then I don't really care if I'm getting fees tacked on as long as I can move more units faster.

    However, if I'm selling a 10,000+ gold item such as high tier weapons and armor even the posting fees run me the risk of losing hundreds of gold if the item doesn't sell. These are high ticket, low volume sold items. Usually high tier crafters get known by name and have people coming directly to them in order to buy their wares. I know I had a guy I purchased most of my armor from. 

    So if it were an option I would likely own a vendor through which I sold those wares provided there is no posting fee, and certainly own one if it removed the tax as well.
    LynxJSA
  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Member RarePosts: 1,985
    I detest player shops and AH taxes or other systems that are biased against AHes. :rage: I count it as a strong negative mark against an MMO if I am considering prospective games and see one with a player shop system.  The only good "player shop" would be one that was a minigame instead of a method of selling to other players.
    Torval
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    I detest player shops and AH taxes or other systems that are biased against AHes. :rage: I count it as a strong negative mark against an MMO if I am considering prospective games and see one with a player shop system.  The only good "player shop" would be one that was a minigame instead of a method of selling to other players.
    Wait. What MMOs have auction houses that aren't taxed? 
    Loke666
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    Hm....while AH and taxes are a must, it would be nice to provide some non-economic perk to stalls - ie. items bought via stalls could have different skin, be 'signed', etc.

    Stalls are impractical and bad design, altough they can make a place lively.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    iixviiiix said:
    Player's vendor , old MMORPG player , free tax and AFK all day long
    AH , the modern fast and quick , there is no need to meet with other , have tax and you don't need to login to sell stuff .

    So the question is if a game have 2 system at same time , will you still open vendor to sell stuff ?

    The guild vendors in ESO are player run vendors that do not require to be AFK all day long. They kinda work as so many non linked auction houses, and when you search a specific item, you have to visit them all until you find it. They are spread all over the huge world.
    Torval
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The guild vendors in ESO are player run vendors that do not require to be AFK all day long. They kinda work as so many non linked auction houses, and when you search a specific item, you have to visit them all until you find it. They are spread all over the huge world.
    Everquest 2 use a similar system as well but there you can search the vendors for prices and items at the AH so you see who  has what.

    If you just want player owned shops as a small RP feature it is easy to add but if you want them to be as popular as buying stuff from the AH you need advantages to get the people to bother.

    There are a few ways to accomplish that:
    * High AH tax
    * No preview in AH but in store (actually pretty logical, you can try on a pair of jeans at the store)
    * Limit on how many items people can list on the AH
    * The possibility to custom order items with specific stats and skin from crafters

    Stuff like that makes it worth peoples time to actually go shop instead of just use the AH since it is the fastest way to get what you want. Player owned shops do add some fun in a game with a good crafting system but if the only point of your game is to speed run quests and kill things I don't think it is worth the effort.
    blueturtle13Kyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,337
    I think DAOC had one of the better compromises.  Players could add an npc merchant to their houses to sell things crafted or looted.

    They had the option to list them on the auction house which were limited to 1 per housing zone.

    A buyer would go to the AH and search for an item, and be able to compare prices for it on all player merchants and see where the merchant physically located to determine how long the travel time would be.

    Now, there was a strategic element to housing, horse routes winding through them, with some houses being located near them, as well as some houses being close to the AH in each zone.

    This meant some house merchants took much less time to get to and lots located near AH, on nearby horse routes, or in zones closest to housing zone entrance being far more valuable for selling one's wares. 

    Back to the buyer, they find several listings for the desired item, and have to make a choice. 

    Option one, buy it right at the AH, instant delivery but there was a 20% fee tacked on which was paid by the buyer and was an in game gold sink.

    Or the could choose to travel to a player merchant in the housing "zone", which really was a group of 9 fairly large zone, some quite far from the housing zones entrance. 

    Shops which were more convenient to get to generally could ask for a higher price due to the convenience factor.   

    It could easily take 20 minutes to reach a particular house, with the challenge of having to regularly press a houseface macro to adjust your course to get to the correct house.

    Meanwhile, someone else might already be on the way there to scoop up the great deal you found, or even buy it directly from the AH while you are traveling. 

    Now imagine you are trying to buy multiple items for your lower level alt, paying the 20% was usually worth it, while that one Platinum (1000 gold) necklace for your template was usually worth the travel time to save 200 gold.

    So many additional nuances, if you had a high level speeder alt, their 105% run speed bonus was a big factor in the decision.  So was travel time, item 1 might cost more, but be 2 or 3 minutes away, while cheaper item 2 might be 25 minutes distant and not worth the time.


    immodium

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  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,604
    edited September 2017
    Kyleran said:
    I think DAOC had one of the better compromises.  Players could add an npc merchant to their houses to sell things crafted or looted.

    They had the option to list them on the auction house which were limited to 1 per housing zone.

    A buyer would go to the AH and search for an item, and be able to compare prices for it on all player merchants and see where the merchant physically located to determine how long the travel time would be.

    Now, there was a strategic element to housing, horse routes winding through them, with some houses being located near them, as well as some houses being close to the AH in each zone.

    This meant some house merchants took much less time to get to and lots located near AH, on nearby horse routes, or in zones closest to housing zone entrance being far more valuable for selling one's wares. 

    Back to the buyer, they find several listings for the desired item, and have to make a choice. 

    Option one, buy it right at the AH, instant delivery but there was a 20% fee tacked on which was paid by the buyer and was an in game gold sink.

    Or the could choose to travel to a player merchant in the housing "zone", which really was a group of 9 fairly large zone, some quite far from the housing zones entrance. 

    Shops which were more convenient to get to generally could ask for a higher price due to the convenience factor.   

    It could easily take 20 minutes to reach a particular house, with the challenge of having to regularly press a houseface macro to adjust your course to get to the correct house.

    Meanwhile, someone else might already be on the way there to scoop up the great deal you found, or even buy it directly from the AH while you are traveling. 

    Now imagine you are trying to buy multiple items for your lower level alt, paying the 20% was usually worth it, while that one Platinum (1000 gold) necklace for your template was usually worth the travel time to save 200 gold.

    So many additional nuances, if you had a high level speeder alt, their 105% run speed bonus was a big factor in the decision.  So was travel time, item 1 might cost more, but be 2 or 3 minutes away, while cheaper item 2 might be 25 minutes distant and not worth the time.


    SWG had pretty much the same system. However I don't think (remember) you could purchase items located at player run vendors directly from the bazaar. You could search for them and get the location of the store.

    You could purchase items from a different planet if listed on the bazaar. However you'd still have to got to that planet to pick it up.

    iixviiiix said:

    So the question is if a game have 2 system at same time , will you still open vendor to sell stuff ?

    Because of the way crafting worked in SWG, very unique items being crafted due to different materials used and skill points invested you could open up your own player run shop and get people to use it over an AH.

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    Loke666 said:
    Stuff like that makes it worth peoples time to actually go shop instead of just use the AH 
    No, it doesn't. Running around checking dozens of stalls looking for an item is simply bad design and why stalls where abandoned as trading mechanics.
    Kyleran
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Gdemami said:
    Loke666 said:
    Stuff like that makes it worth peoples time to actually go shop instead of just use the AH 
    No, it doesn't. Running around checking dozens of stalls looking for an item is simply bad design and why stalls where abandoned as trading mechanics.
    Then you pay more at the AH, no problem. Player owned shops gives a discount for time spent, nothing else. If you prefer to spend that time grinding cash to cover the broker fees instead it is your choice.

    How is that bad game design? The more options a game have the better it is.

    And I do push for sligthly higher broker fee then most MMOs have today, 30% instead of the standard 20% but frankly would that just help a little against the hyper inflation MMOs get.
    Gdemami
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    DMKano said:
    AH all the way.

    I mean games that allow you to log out and sell via NPC that's much better.

    But being AFK connected to just sell ... nope.

    Still AH is far superior in every way as long as it fits the game and the crafting systems.

    But allowing players to trade and sell directly to other players is also important.


    BDO's example of forcing everyone to use the AH as the only means and where the min/max prices are enforced - total shite design
    Yeah, there is zero reason why a shopkeeper wouldn't hire in an employee to handle business when he or she is doing something else. Makes one wonder which Einstein got that "brilliant" idea in the first place...
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    edited September 2017
    Loke666 said:
    How is that bad game design? 
    Right, leaving issues with implementation and overall economy aspect aside, penalizing vastly more preferred mechanics over one that was historically deemed as overcomed is something players are thriving after. More inconvenience, the better.

    Yep, my bad, I keep forgetting that on these boards common sense and reason has no place...
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,569
    I like the idea of having both. The only game I've encountered that I've actually gotten into that has this system is Lineage 2. The auction house was not used nearly as much as it could have been but it was also a feature added in later. Since they only had player markets originally with AFK players selling items, people got used to doing it that way. I've noticed you could find a lot of deals sifting through player ran auctioneers. But if a game had both it would be pretty nice to be able to go look up an item in the auctionhouse on something if you need it fast. But if you wanted to find a random deal it would be nice to just go look around. Honestly it makes it feel more like a world to me being able to have interaction with the characters selling the item instead of just getting it in the mail instantly. 
    Mikeha
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,198
    Gdemami said:
    Loke666 said:
    Stuff like that makes it worth peoples time to actually go shop instead of just use the AH 
    No, it doesn't. Running around checking dozens of stalls looking for an item is simply bad design and why stalls where abandoned as trading mechanics.
     There's no reason why an interface, tools, or npc/entity can't exist to search for items that match a certain search criteria. Asheron's Call players were able to do that through a 3rd party tool. Lineage 2 players had a slash command for it. 

    As to why stalls were abandoned, I would think system resources and more control over the game economy (transaction taxes and other money sinks) had as much of a hand in the change as people who wanted a less custom, more streamlined experience. 
    iixviiiixGdemami
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Gdemami said:
    Loke666 said:
    How is that bad game design? 
    Right, leaving issues with implementation and overall economy aspect aside, penalizing vastly more preferred mechanics over one that was historically deemed as overcomed is something players are thriving after. More inconvenience, the better.

    Yep, my bad, I keep forgetting that on these boards common sense and reason has no place...
    There is always a broker fee at auction houses, usually 20% but we seen more in some games, less is rare and in the case I seen you needed a special case to get it down to 15%.

    You will pay broker fee in any case, and without the option to walk to a store and skip the fee for expensive stuff.

    That sure sounds like common sense and reason, right? 
    Gdemami
  • VitaminKVitaminK Member UncommonPosts: 76
    I love ESO but that is the one thing I REALLY hate about the game is the stupid f*cking Guild Auction Houses. It's the one reason I don't pay to play it, for me right now it's the only worthwhile MMO out but the Guild Auction Houses are asinine.
    sunandshadow
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,837
    It depends on the nature of the game. For instance, in an MMORPG that is a little more focused on roleplaying and simulating a virtual world rather than offering quick "rides", I would definitely enjoy having player-run shops. In a themepark like Warcraft, on the other hand, I probably would not bother with setting up a shop and would just sell items on AH.

    I believe that while it is true that auction house represents a more convenient solution which makes it a favorable option for majority of players, there are still valid reasons why player-run shops have their place in MMORPGs.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Loke666 said:
    Gdemami said:
    Loke666 said:
    How is that bad game design? 
    Right, leaving issues with implementation and overall economy aspect aside, penalizing vastly more preferred mechanics over one that was historically deemed as overcomed is something players are thriving after. More inconvenience, the better.

    Yep, my bad, I keep forgetting that on these boards common sense and reason has no place...
    There is always a broker fee at auction houses, usually 20% but we seen more in some games, less is rare and in the case I seen you needed a special case to get it down to 15%.

    You will pay broker fee in any case, and without the option to walk to a store and skip the fee for expensive stuff.

    That sure sounds like common sense and reason, right? 
    Players will generally always take the path of least resistance.  Taking the logic applied to the extreme, a case could be made that you should give every player an instant max level option.

    If you're trying to create a lively economy in the game, options are certainly better.  I like having to weigh the options to attempt to discern the best deal for my time/gold.  I think the system used in DAoC is an excellent one; you have the option to use in-game currency to prevent you from spending the extra time running to the shop you wanna buy from.  Otherwise known as a shipping and handling charge.

    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    I do think that shops if implemented back into games in the exact same fashion of shops that came before will not work that well.

    I'd make a couple changes to the shop system:

    1. Have a board somewhere in a central location in towns. People have the ability to post descriptions of their shop on this board. That at way you have some idea what shops you are looking for before you run around town stopping at every shop to see they have 3 nails and a rusty pair of scissors. 

    2. Have a special order system. Say you go to a blacksmith shop and he has nothing you want. But there is a neato little tool where you can see what items are creatable with that blacksmith's skills and materials, select one of those items, and place an order for it.

    The blacksmith then comes back to see the orders. He can respond by sending you a ticket with the price he's willing to give on that item, and how long he will give himself to fulfil the order / how long you will have to pick it up when it's finished. It may also include a request for a downpayment. Once/if you accept his terms, the contract begins and he goes to work on the item, then CODs (A mail that requires payment upon delivery) it to you when finished.

    I see that being a system wildly more popular than traditional vendors because let's face it. Half the time we shop at traditional vendors all they have is junk. But if we can put in custom orders, then there is a much higher chance that if we don't find what we are looking for, we can at least find someone who will make it.
    MadFrenchieGdemami
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    I personally don't mind going to the location of a shop to get the item(s) I want, but I can't be arsed to spend hours running to every single player run shop to find it.
    Thankfully, in AC1 back then and now in ESO, there are UI addons which permit to search all the player run shops for the item(s) you want.
    MadFrenchieTorval
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,267
    I didn't see anyone mention FFXI, which had this system. Some items you couldn't sell on AH, so players had to set up shop to sell them. I think its kind of hit or miss though. I've personally loved just having the auction house so I didn't have to go through 100s of vendors back and forth to check prices and make sure I was getting a good deal (and hopefully someone doesn't buy it before I do, thanks for trauma RO!). MMORPGs should always adjust to the realities of the times for the most part and having universal auction houses is a must imo (probably why I can't really enjoy ESO as much as I want to). Cross server matching is also a must I feel to avoid games dying in the end.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Eldurian said:
    I do think that shops if implemented back into games in the exact same fashion of shops that came before will not work that well.

    I'd make a couple changes to the shop system:

    1. Have a board somewhere in a central location in towns. People have the ability to post descriptions of their shop on this board. That at way you have some idea what shops you are looking for before you run around town stopping at every shop to see they have 3 nails and a rusty pair of scissors. 

    2. Have a special order system. Say you go to a blacksmith shop and he has nothing you want. But there is a neato little tool where you can see what items are creatable with that blacksmith's skills and materials, select one of those items, and place an order for it.

    The blacksmith then comes back to see the orders. He can respond by sending you a ticket with the price he's willing to give on that item, and how long he will give himself to fulfil the order / how long you will have to pick it up when it's finished. It may also include a request for a downpayment. Once/if you accept his terms, the contract begins and he goes to work on the item, then CODs (A mail that requires payment upon delivery) it to you when finished.

    I see that being a system wildly more popular than traditional vendors because let's face it. Half the time we shop at traditional vendors all they have is junk. But if we can put in custom orders, then there is a much higher chance that if we don't find what we are looking for, we can at least find someone who will make it.
    That type of shop is truer to real life than shops where you have no idea what's on them.

    I liked the idea of utilizing an order system.  I would enjoy a system where this is rolled into the DAoC one mentioned, where you can choose to pay the shipping charge to a centralized location or travel to pick it up yourself and save that gold.

    The nuances of such a system would provide an avenue where both player made shops and a centralized auction house are useful; it's up to the player to decide which is more useful to him or her: the extra time, or the extra gold.
    KyleranGdemami

    image
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,829
    edited September 2017
    Yep this idea already done in FFXI,a CONSOLE game no less,more robust than many full PC games.
    The restriction was also a nice way to try and keep prices in check because if a player can't free up new space to sell stuff they will make no gil aside from the personal afk vendor.

    The idea of the vendor in FFXi for example was that to get around the restrictive AH,you have to give and take.So you could load up on items on your player but far less people would see those and often people don't want to sift all players wares,so yeah give and take as the AH was much easier and compact for players to use.

    BTW ...yet again the ffxi community had an online Ah site  http://www.ffxiah.com/ that would also show all the players and what players would be selling a certain item.So then it was as simple as checking to see WHERE,so a /sea all command for say Joan Jett and you would get a return of what zone that player was in and if online,so you could either message or if afk go to that zone and click the player.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

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