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Dynamic events and quests

MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,271
edited August 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
We saw that in Guild Wars 2, yes they were scripted but nonetheless the world felt more alive, things happen around even if you weren't part of it.
I thought for myself at that time , wow  this quest system will be the new norm and usher in a new MMO era, I really thought that, that the classic ! and ? were gone and the the new dynamic questing gonna be the new thing but better than Gw2, I really thought other game developers would take this idea and improve on it and make it even better, the future were so much brighter and I had such joy.

Now I'm sad, I still see the classic ! and ? and I still see the crowd hail the oldschool playstyle, the quest systems, the mob farming, the raid boss camping the holy trinity ect

I thought we all were done with that kind of gameplay yet you all hail it now, I really don't get it.

Gdemami
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Comments

  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Member UncommonPosts: 852
    I loved the idea of it and enjoyed it, till 5 mins later it reset and might of well not happened at all. I would really love to see this idea in a SRPG. This idea doesn't really seem to great for an MMO cause the affect of the event can't last too long.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,697
    Off-topic: I bought the base game when it was released. Now what I need to buy to get access to everything and how long of a journey is until I can reach the coming expansion? 
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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    I loved the idea of it and enjoyed it, till 5 mins later it reset and might of well not happened at all. I would really love to see this idea in a SRPG. This idea doesn't really seem to great for an MMO cause the affect of the event can't last too long.
    yeah, so they end up not being dynamic at all. And in GW2, the bosses are on exact timers so everyone knows EXACTLY when it happens (along with other events). That isn't dynamic at all, those are timed events not dynamic events.

    Dynamic events work better in singleplayer RPGs

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  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,128
    Dynamic events require planned carefully over among of long time , for example 1 year (real life) cycle to be called dynamic events . Basically it show the lack of understand of developer about how MMORPG work .
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    edited August 2017
    I love dynamic events and log into GW2 nearly daily just to do my favorites.  I loved when WoW did invasions and had a lot of fun leveling my main and lots of alts.  I also wish more games would do them.  There's nothing like taking part in a small battle that actually grows based on the number of players, moves across zones and ending in a pretty nice boss fight.  Rift does invasions that were fun for a while but they don't have as much variety as GW2's events.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    GW2 was a nice start, but we are far from a true dynamic living world with a real ecosystem and dynamically generated content and quests depending on the actual situation.
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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Could you imagine how good Guildwars2 could be if it were wayyyyyy harder.... I think it would actually be a hit :)
    Eronakis
  • rertezrertez Member UncommonPosts: 230
    Off-topic: I bought the base game when it was released. Now what I need to buy to get access to everything and how long of a journey is until I can reach the coming expansion? 
    Each expansion comes with a level 80 boost token. To access the expansion content you have to be level 80. That's the only requirement. Selecting and activating the corresponding story line from the journal guides you right into the expansion starting area.

    If you want to access both HoT and PoF then there's an optional bundle for $50. After selecting PoF into the basket you get a discounted $20 offer for HoT Standard before checkout. Note that HoT is not required for the second expansion but Gliding Masteries, HoT Elite Specializations and a lot of content are bound to HoT. You'll be able to play PoF without buying anything else but PoF though.

    + There is a Season 3 content package containing a new story line with 6 extra maps, a map for each of its episodes. If you haven't unlocked S3 episodes for free (each episode could be unlocked for free with a login regardless of having HoT or not) then they can be bought for in-game gold or real money. You can completely skip S3 or get it later. Or just buy the single episode that has the easiest way of getting an Ascended back piece. I would say buy it for gold.
    ConstantineMerus
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,583
    Maurgrim said:
    We saw that in Guild Wars 2, yes they were scripted but nonetheless the world felt more alive, things happen around even if you weren't part of it.
    I thought for myself at that time , wow  this quest system will be the new norm and usher in a new MMO era, I really thought that, that the classic ! and ? were gone and the the new dynamic questing gonna be the new thing but better than Gw2, I really thought other game developers would take this idea and improve on it and make it even better, the future were so much brighter and I had such joy.

    Now I'm sad, I still see the classic ! and ? and I still see the crowd hail the oldschool playstyle, the quest systems, the mob farming, the raid boss camping the holy trinity ect

    I thought we all were done with that kind of gameplay yet you all hail it now, I really don't get it.

    First, whilst I haven't played GW2, what you and others describe does not sound like "dynamic" content. It sounds like very static, scripted content, just on timers so that the world changes back and forth. 

    Second, I believe this comes down to the difference between telling a story, and building a story. 


    If a game is trying to tell a story, it is entirely developer led and requires generally linear gameplay and tightly scripted quests. Quest givers (story tellers) and the actions you complete are still the best way to tell a story. 

    If the game is trying to build a story, this implies that the ending is not known and this is where personalisation and dynamic content comes in. It is about creating a world for you to live in and for you to have your own story. The dynamic content might well result in similar experiences for most people, but should be different enough to feel like your story. For example, orcs might mount regular raids on a starter village. The dynamic aspect of the game would vary the size of those raids and also allow for different outcomes. 

    Player 1 might experience a small raid - 5 orcs killing some cows in a field. That player can solo the orcs, save some cows and be a minor hero. Player 2, who joins 1 month later, might experience a large raid. He is unable to solo it but saves a few villagers. The outcome is the village is reduced to ruins, and that player remembers "the great raid of '07". Player 3 joins slightly afterwards and rather than defending against a raid, he now has to help rebuild the village by staging raids against the orcs to steal supplies. Player 4 joins later and experiences another large raid, but he groups up with other newbies and successfully defends the village. Player 5 joins even later, but with the village safe and the orcs afraid to attack again, the game asks him to eradicate the orcs, which he does with some friends. 


    For each of these players, the experience is slightly different, and the player's success or failure affects the gameworld in a semi-permanent way. It forms part of a dynamic ecosystem where player actions affect what spawns and what is available. The story is personal for each player, yet the experience is roughly equivalent so can be balanced and controlled. Early players might fondly remember attacks by orcs, whilst later players had to contend with wolves (which replaced the orcs when the orcs were eradicated). 



    I am much more of a fan of dynamic content and personal stories. I don't like traditional quests and never have. That said, I have basically never seen dynamic content done well. It is much more appropriate to a sandbox design but very few designers seem to be able to handle sandbox. 
  • rertezrertez Member UncommonPosts: 230

    First, whilst I haven't played GW2, what you and others describe does not sound like "dynamic" content. It sounds like very static, scripted content, just on timers so that the world changes back and forth. 

    Note that there are dynamic events (meta events) that are triggered by the outcome of other events or chains of events. In that sense they are not really timed but controlled by player activities within the map.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,128
    edited August 2017
    True dynamic events is like a tree that grow branches and leaves
    Amaranthar
  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,436
     The way dynamic events work in GW2 was not actually what I had in mind prior to launch.  I had this idea a quest would branch out ever further so there were many possiblities.  As it exists there really is only two things that happen.  For instance, you save the hamlet/village  etc. or you dont.  Then it resets.  

    For the first few months I loved this!  Nowadays I venture in to an area and if the village is under attack and I need to get there I just find it a nuisance. Maybe the problem is me, hehe. 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    This is the biggest problem.  Never mind the work involved with creating branching possibilities and/or having lasting effects on the world.

    The real issue is there would be a handful of players who could play together, and that's it.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    This is the biggest problem.  Never mind the work involved with creating branching possibilities and/or having lasting effects on the world.

    The real issue is there would be a handful of players who could play together, and that's it.
    If the world is truly dynamic, then everybody would live the same events at the same moment, and would most likely never seen them again in exactly the same way.
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Off-topic: I bought the base game when it was released. Now what I need to buy to get access to everything and how long of a journey is until I can reach the coming expansion? 
    I just bought the PoF expansion a month ago to upgrade my account and have been playing regularly (1-3 hours a night, roughly) and I've got a level 43 Elementals thus far.  I did try a few other classes before settling on the Ele though, so I'd be a little farther along if I hadn't. Haven't had the need (that I can tell) for the expansions past the account upgrade thus far.

    DM me if you'd like my in-game names to add to a friend's list.  I know Bill and the gang also have a presence in-game.
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    image
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    This is the biggest problem.  Never mind the work involved with creating branching possibilities and/or having lasting effects on the world.

    The real issue is there would be a handful of players who could play together, and that's it.
    If the world is truly dynamic, then everybody would live the same events at the same moment, and would most likely never seen them again in exactly the same way.

    Then you would have no control over anything and everything would be controlled by the first people to arrive.  That would be stupid.
    KyleranMaurgrim
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,388
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    This is the biggest problem.  Never mind the work involved with creating branching possibilities and/or having lasting effects on the world.

    The real issue is there would be a handful of players who could play together, and that's it.
    If the world is truly dynamic, then everybody would live the same events at the same moment, and would most likely never seen them again in exactly the same way.

    Then you would have no control over anything and everything would be controlled by the first people to arrive.  That would be stupid.
    Not really if it's done well. If locations have the possibility of generating from a large database of dynamic events you might be first to one event but certainly not to all of them. And if they were group based challenges (more like the idea of Rift's invasions) word would go out on the server that such and such a place needs help.

    A few games have flirted with dynamic events - and I don't consider ESO's phasing one of those - but no one has yet made it into what it could be. Ashes has some good ideas with their town growth and events that can spawn from that but it still sounds to me like it could get to be predictable over time.

    What we need is unpredictability of for example, undead invasions that have a chance to happen but could just as easily be one of tens of other events. And not on predictable timers. I could see a game developed like that having far less need for solo quest content.


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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    To add another layer, you could even set parameters for the abilities and class of lieutenant/boss level mobs to ensure that, even if the undead invade twice in the same area, the army and it's leaders consist of substantially different compositions and abilities.

    That would, however, require exponentially more resources in creating content throughout the game world.

    image
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,271
    edited August 2017
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    This is the biggest problem.  Never mind the work involved with creating branching possibilities and/or having lasting effects on the world.

    The real issue is there would be a handful of players who could play together, and that's it.
    If the world is truly dynamic, then everybody would live the same events at the same moment, and would most likely never seen them again in exactly the same way.

    Then you would have no control over anything and everything would be controlled by the first people to arrive.  That would be stupid.
    That is exactly the point, that makes the world alive, everyone dosent have to be part of everything that happens in game world, thats something you can read about, like a group of players killed a dragon who were terrorizing a town, now that town are saved and starting a building boom for crafters and with the building boom resources are needed so traders starts to haul it there.

    While you on the other hand were somewhere else in the world and read about all this and decides to help out rebuild the town or help out clearing the wilderness around the town for that dragon minions to make it even safer.
    Just because you missed the initial dragon attack dosent mean you can enjoy what comes after.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,295
    ESO ran into problems with their dynamic content that never reset.  It was nice to return to a village you've saved and it was still saved but if you want to experience that again you couldn't do it on that character because those quests didn't reset.  If you had a friend you wanted to play with you couldn't because he had never liberated that village so he wouldn't be seeing the same village you would.  If two people wanted to level together they had to always play through the same content at the same time or they would phase out of some of it and you wouldn't even be able to see them standing next to you because they were in a different place in the story.  

    I think that's why a lot of MMOs have a personal story that changes the game as you play through but in general resets the rest for a better group experience.

    It is nice hearing NPCs talking about your adventures when you go to the local pub for ale.

    This is the biggest problem.  Never mind the work involved with creating branching possibilities and/or having lasting effects on the world.

    The real issue is there would be a handful of players who could play together, and that's it.
    If the world is truly dynamic, then everybody would live the same events at the same moment, and would most likely never seen them again in exactly the same way.

    Then you would have no control over anything and everything would be controlled by the first people to arrive.  That would be stupid.
    That's actually the point. That you never find exactly the same situation twice. Like in "real" life, actually.

    For instance, if game (deers, etc...) are decimated, you may have wolves come closer to villages to feed. That could generate some quests until the problematic situation is solved.

    The next time, it may be a migrating tribe of orcs that set camp near the village because wolves have been exterminated and the area is rich now rich in edible prey. That would create another danger for the villagers, auto-generating other quests.

    Also, a lone player shouldn't be able to wipe out the orc camp. He'd be utterly destroyed if he tries. He will need to get some decent help.

    With a whole, large world built like that, the possibilities are infinite.
    Eronakis
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    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,697
    After all is said and done one can conclude lots of people here wanted play EverQuest Next--5 minutes of silence in respect of the fallen. May you rise again like the sun after the day break is came and gone. 
    Maurgrim
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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited August 2017
    DMKano said:
    Could you imagine how good Guildwars2 could be if it were wayyyyyy harder.... I think it would actually be a hit :)

    yes I can imagine it - wayyyyyy harder GW2 = lose current 80% players, gain 10% hardcores = overall huge net loss


    After a game has been running for years - cranking the difficulty WAY up = bad idea

    GuildWars2 is played by so many because it's the best pay model ever being "buy-to-play".  It's also a good game, I'll say this absolutely.  Both are the true reasons its played by millions....... Well, in fact it's now the best "free-to-play". 

    NOT BECAUSE ITS EASY..... Going to work now, have a nice day :)
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The thing with Dynamic events is that the idea still is very new counting the numbers of MMOs that used it while quests have been around a long time.

    The first MMO quest I did was killing rat in a moat in M59 1996 but there were already rather advanced quests in 80s games like "Pool of radiance".

    GW2s version is the most advanced so far but it is still very basic, there are 2 things that might happen depending on success or failure, usually are there a few to 20 events being cycled. Often do they just go on timer even if some events start due to players doing things that isn't always related.

    It is still rather fun and DEs feel far more urgent then quests and less forced but for DEs to truly reach it's potential we need far more games experimenting with them. They do have gone a far way from WARs public quests and Rifts DEs already but we are barely glimpsing the potential yet.

    Sadly are they more expensive and gharder to make then quests so we might never see them reach that potential.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,583
    Loke666 said:
    The thing with Dynamic events is that the idea still is very new counting the numbers of MMOs that used it while quests have been around a long time.

    The first MMO quest I did was killing rat in a moat in M59 1996 but there were already rather advanced quests in 80s games like "Pool of radiance".

    GW2s version is the most advanced so far but it is still very basic, there are 2 things that might happen depending on success or failure, usually are there a few to 20 events being cycled. Often do they just go on timer even if some events start due to players doing things that isn't always related.

    It is still rather fun and DEs feel far more urgent then quests and less forced but for DEs to truly reach it's potential we need far more games experimenting with them. They do have gone a far way from WARs public quests and Rifts DEs already but we are barely glimpsing the potential yet.

    Sadly are they more expensive and gharder to make then quests so we might never see them reach that potential.
    I question whether dynamic content is actually more expensive to make. I agree that it is harder to design, but actual implementation shouldn't be much harder than standard quests. It just depends how much of the world you want to make dynamic. My preference would be to keep only the core storyline static (like epic books in LotRO, or class stories in SW:TOR) and make everything else dynamic. 


    So, lets take mob spawning as an example. A large proportion of quests we get involve killing stuff - be it 10 rats, a whole camp of enemies, or a mini-boss somewhere - so the world needs to spawn the creatures we kill. 

    Artists, animators, devs and whoever else already have to put in the work to create these mobs, assign them skills and behaviour, create huts / tents / camps etc for them to live in. So, static or dynamic, the bulk of the heavy lifting has already been done. 

    In a static system, you just assign zones and say what can spawn in those zones. You can use the same principles for a dynamic system. You can still have zones for spawning, it is simply that what spawns changes depending on in game actions. 

    What spawns, as a result of player actions, can also be pretty simple. Lets say at launch there is a goblin camp near a village. At that point, spawning is the same whether static or dynamic. There just needs to be a trigger event that changes what spawns. Maybe that trigger is a single kill of the boss. Perhaps it is a counter - 100 kills of the boss, or 100 completions of a quest. Once that trigger has happened, the game simply changes what spawns within that zone. 


    So, the hard work in such a system is:
    • Quest generation - the quests on offer need to match the environment, preferably dynamically generated rather than coming from a pre-built list. But, you could be lazy: if goblins then offer these 5 quests, if wolves offer these 5 quests etc. 
    • Landscape alteration - if goblins were living nearby, I'd expect a goblin encampment with shit walls and tents. If these were replaced by wolves, I'd expect no walls or tents, but perhaps a wolf den. Your system would need to be able to change the environment to suit it's inhabitants. Again, you could be lazy and pre-define all the options, but I'd prefer something dynamic so one month, the camp might be in one place, the next it is somewhere slightly different. 
    • The changeover - when the trigger is met, how do you handle the changeover? Do you despawn all goblins and instantly spawn wolves? Do you make the goblins walk to the nearest cave and disappear? Do the wolves walk down as a pack from nearby mountains? Do new goblin tribes migrate in, and if so can we ambush them?

    I think these are all fairly easy challenges to overcome. For example, if you have your spawning algorithm sorted nicely, then in the future you can easily add a new race to an area by just creating a new potential outcome (e.g. uruk hai), adding the mobs and the buildings to that outcome, then defining the triggers. 

    From that point on, the right set of outcomes would result in the uruk hai invading an area, building their own unique buildings and spawning automatic quests for new visitors. 



    I'm probably not doing a good job of explaining myself, but I firmly believe that with a talented game designer and a great lead developer, you could implement dynamic content for roughly the same price as existing static content. You'd have more upfront costs in terms of design and dev, but less ongoing costs as you only need to design a single system (mob spawning + triggers + quests) which can then be used to populate every single zone with mobs and quests. 


    Maurgrim
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