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Do MMO developers have no passion anymore and is why MMOs fail?

TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
Older MMOs, like Guild Wars 1, Everquest...Ultima Online...Asheron's Call...even going as "new" as City of Heroes (and WoW while has a cash shop, is definitely not the focus)...

Those MMOs all have one thing in common (amongst of similar MMOs released in that time frame)...they were made by developers with passion and love.

These days, developers make MMOs to make as much money as they possibly can. They focus so heavily on the cash shop (GW2 for example very heavily focuses on the cash shop, but GW1 did not at all) and RNG loot boxes and pay to win schemes that there is no love anymore. Developers only focus on making as much money as possible. That is fine to have money, but older MMOs were made by developers who loved MMOs and wanted to make a game THEY loved and they hoped others loved it too.

Is this one reason so many MMOs are failing? No passion is being made with them anymore? WoW came out and while it has a cash shop (don't think it always did, did it?) I feel it was the last MMO made with passion and love. And funny enough, it was also the last successful and biggest MMO.

Since then, all I see is such a focus on cash shop and barely any love for the game...in fact...most MMOs are built AROUND the cash shop and heavily focus on it. But I see little love for the MMO itself only existing for the purpose of the cash shop. No passion or love being put into their games.

If an MMO was to be successful, it should be made by developers who love MMOs and have passion  for them. Not developers looking for a quick buck. And sure its not guaranteed to be liked, but at least its made with love and developers who actually love MMOs.

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Comments

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,328
    Could we have ONE single thread not filled with assumptions about what developers think and do?
    Would be nice for a change.
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  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Perhaps the disconnect happened when the average gamer decided that no game was good enough to pay for, but was good enough to play 24/7 as long as it was "free" ? :D
    RobsolfNephethAzaron_NightbladeIselin
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    The issue is more about how business works.  Large studios have business men at the helm who want a return on their investment as fast as possible so we get stuff like Mass Effect Andromeda that are rushed and then abandoned shortly after release.

    On the other side of that coin are Indy studios who have no business people at the helm to control their spending or tug the reins when developers spend too much time on bell and not enough effort on whistles.  Look at Star Citizen, as long as the money is coming in, they are running around in all directions and we are still YEARS away from seeing the release.

    Think back to the original Bioware and the games they made back in the day.  3 doctors with business experience who loved games.  It is hard to get the mix right and that is where many of todays studios struggle.  Look at Trion, with a better business model Archeage could have been a breakout hit here in the west.  But sadly Scott Hartsman is more business than developer.

    The line between business and developer is much like the line between usability and security, it is hard to get the right balance of both.

    Azaron_Nightbladewanderica
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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    edited August 2017
    DMKano said:
    I actually felt physical pain reading that OP.

    Sometimes things are so wrong, it hurts.

    [mod edit]
    Not sure what is wrong. When MMO genre was new, it was made by developers who wanted to make a good MMO for MMO fans because they themselves loved MMOs. They weren't looking for a get rich quick scheme.

    That is why on MMORPG.com a lot of users want oldschool style MMOs back, and not the new cash shop focused ones that have too much attention to the cash shop and not the game. To get old school MMOs back, gotta make MMOs like back in the day or there'll never be a true oldschool MMO again that people on these forums want. And many developers these days don't put much care or passion into the MMO except to make as much money as possible, which isn't how oldschool MMO devs built their MMOs.

    Unless people don't actually want oldschool MMOs back and like the new ones more. That would mean games like Pantheon are (sadly) doomed to fail, and may be why Vanguard Saga of Heroes failed. If that is the case, then yeah the OP would be wrong then.
    Post edited by Vaross on

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  • majimaji Member UncommonPosts: 2,091
    Compared to most other games, MMORPGs require a greater effort to be developed. A greater effort means a greater risk, as, if the game fails, you lose more money. To mitigate the risk, the developers add only miniscule new features and changes, but rather stick to what has been proven to work.

    Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

    Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,131
    No , they just have no brain . Who the heck created Arena PVP that give more reward than open world PVP in a game that main sell point is open world PVP ? They did , make it online game with login then call it MMO hahaha ****

    Even the quests making machine have more brain than those MMO developers
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,358
    Perhaps the disconnect happened when the average gamer decided that no game was good enough to pay for, but was good enough to play 24/7 as long as it was "free" ? :D
    MMO gameplay didnt help either.


    The concept of "do menial tasks for hundreds of hours before you can get to anything that resembles fun but with a bunch of other people running around that can actively impede you" just doesnt have the same pull that it did a decade ago.


    Thats why MOBAs and Hero Shooters have replaced MMOs - no spending hundreds of hours toiling away at nothing to get to the fun parts.


    You're looking in the wrong place for the answer, its the players that have no passion for MMOs and that is why they are failing.
    Robsolf
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,108
    Older MMOs, like Guild Wars 1, Everquest...Ultima Online...Asheron's Call...even going as "new" as City of Heroes (and WoW while has a cash shop, is definitely not the focus)...

    Those MMOs all have one thing in common (amongst of similar MMOs released in that time frame)...they were made by developers with passion and love.

    These days, developers make MMOs to make as much money as they possibly can. They focus so heavily on the cash shop (GW2 for example very heavily focuses on the cash shop, but GW1 did not at all) and RNG loot boxes and pay to win schemes that there is no love anymore. Developers only focus on making as much money as possible. That is fine to have money, but older MMOs were made by developers who loved MMOs and wanted to make a game THEY loved and they hoped others loved it too.

    Is this one reason so many MMOs are failing? No passion is being made with them anymore? WoW came out and while it has a cash shop (don't think it always did, did it?) I feel it was the last MMO made with passion and love. And funny enough, it was also the last successful and biggest MMO.

    Since then, all I see is such a focus on cash shop and barely any love for the game...in fact...most MMOs are built AROUND the cash shop and heavily focus on it. But I see little love for the MMO itself only existing for the purpose of the cash shop. No passion or love being put into their games.

    If an MMO was to be successful, it should be made by developers who love MMOs and have passion  for them. Not developers looking for a quick buck. And sure its not guaranteed to be liked, but at least its made with love and developers who actually love MMOs.
    Getting back on topic, I'd like to submit that a lack of passion is not a significant problem in game design.  Hardly anyone gets into creating computer games for a living unless they have a lot of passion for it.

    The problem is that passion alone can't create a great game, or even a marginally working one.  Being unable to make games that work the way that the designer envisioned is a huge problem, even for the elite game creators who do make good games.  Scaling back the vision to something that they can implement properly is a concession to reality, not a lack of passion.
    Robsolf
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,510
    Game developers have giving up on mmo's. Well the AAA ones anyways. They cost to much to make and you can't ever please anyone playing them today. The OP is just better off playing the old school mmo's and forget about the new ones. That's what all my mmo friends have done. Heck you can still play GW1 and its seems to be getting more popular these days.
    Gdemami
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,826
    No, the problem is that there are players who are willing to pay more money.....a lot more money, to be better than you.

    Gotta keep the servers plugged in afterall.
    Gdemami
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,597
    Xiaoki said:
    Perhaps the disconnect happened when the average gamer decided that no game was good enough to pay for, but was good enough to play 24/7 as long as it was "free" ? :D
    MMO gameplay didnt help either.


    The concept of "do menial tasks for hundreds of hours before you can get to anything that resembles fun but with a bunch of other people running around that can actively impede you" just doesnt have the same pull that it did a decade ago.


    Thats why MOBAs and Hero Shooters have replaced MMOs - no spending hundreds of hours toiling away at nothing to get to the fun parts.


    You're looking in the wrong place for the answer, its the players that have no passion for MMOs and that is why they are failing.
    Yep.  I'm not into MOBA nor Hero Shooters, but if you're a developer and you have the choice between 5 years of development time to make an MMO and 2 years to build a MOBA, it's, unfortunately, an easy decision.  Especially over the din of self professed "MMO fans" that complain half the time about the lack of MMO's coming out, and spend the other half of their time complaining about the ones that do.

    I know for me it would be easier to justify getting paid less to do more if there was a crowd of fans of my work cheering me on.  But honestly, with all this incessant bitching, it wouldn't be long before I'd say, "Screw it and screw these people!  I'm gonna go make a dozen phone games and make a crapton more money..."

    ...and that's exactly what they're doing.


    SpottyGekkoTorval
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    edited August 2017
    Gdemami said:
    DMKano said:
    [mod edit]
    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    But anyways, saying that the devs don't have passion for what they do is rather unfair, while some probably don't many does. The publishers might push them in a certain direction though and more unusual ideas have a hard time to get funded but that isn't the same as all devs doing games they don't really like.
    Post edited by Vaross on
    GdemamiRobsolfConstantineMerus
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,839
    City of Heroes cost about 5 mil to start up.   If you could make start up MMOs at 5 mil per today, there'd be tons of them.   Irrespective of  'passion'.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,852
    I feel that most likely a large majority have passion with their first game but mostly it is just business.
    You can tell by the business models if there is passion or a money grab,just business.

    I feel the real subject is weather they have passion above their business side of things.This would make it real easy to discuss because imo 99.9% even if we agreed they all have passion,will put aside passion for whatever it takes to make the business a success and money.People have been known to cheat and lie to their own family and friends because of money,so to think some blind stranger wouldn't try to dupe you or deceive you or try to swindle you for as much money as possible would be very naive.
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  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,414
    edited August 2017
    Like most gaming today they cater to the lowest common deniminator which is casuals, even the upcoming .hack GU Last recode is being made easy mode for casuals who suck at games, with stuff like increased attack power, faster exp gain, faster weapon skill exp gain, and making some of the optional harder bosses easier. The game never was grindy. Nor was it too hard. Alas gamers past the ps1/ps2 generation generally suck compared to older gamers and alot of them need their hand held to get thru a game.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    edited August 2017
    No.  Games were always made by developers trying to buy a big house, expensive car, and keep their beautiful wives living the luxurious lifestyle they had become accustomed to.

    In 1994 when Warcraft: Orcs & Humans  was released it was shareware (free to download and play a handful of missions, and multiplayer [long before & without battlenet]).  But it was made to make a buck even back then.

    None of the old games listed was made by a developer that wasn't in it for the money.  Now if you are talking Rogue or Netrek, maybe those old games were made out of passion.

    Games fail today, for one reason.  Customers can't afford them anymore.  Because of the poor economy.
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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Could we have ONE single thread not filled with assumptions about what developers think and do?
    Would be nice for a change.

    I hate these presumed post titles about things.  Why are devs so ______ presumes the _________.  Mostly it  is person X bitching about how games are made specifically for them.  Mostly Clueless fools if you ask me.
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  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,997
    There are several mmorpg passion projects in the works. The problem is that they are passion projects and always a risky venture.

    Some will be decent I am sure.
    Gdemami

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  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,825
    edited August 2017
    Talonsin said:
    The issue is more about how business works.  Large studios have business men at the helm who want a return on their investment as fast as possible so we get stuff like Mass Effect Andromeda that are rushed and then abandoned shortly after release.

    On the other side of that coin are Indy studios who have no business people at the helm to control their spending or tug the reins when developers spend too much time on bell and not enough effort on whistles.  Look at Star Citizen, as long as the money is coming in, they are running around in all directions and we are still YEARS away from seeing the release.

    Think back to the original Bioware and the games they made back in the day.  3 doctors with business experience who loved games.  It is hard to get the mix right and that is where many of todays studios struggle.  Look at Trion, with a better business model Archeage could have been a breakout hit here in the west.  But sadly Scott Hartsman is more business than developer.

    I'd say he's more businessman and developer than he is a gamer. Which I imagine goes for most of the suits. I'm pretty sure most devs love making games, but they are restricted by the business side of things. Granted, sometimes it's for good reasons as you brought up with the SC example.
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,621
    Could we have ONE single thread not filled with assumptions about what developers think and do?
    Would be nice for a change.
    I wish people who assumed what developers were "thinking" or "why" they did things would go and actually work in the industry before proclaiming blame.

    I think it would actually be eye opening and would "correct" a great many people.
    Jean-Luc_PicardRobsolf
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,671
    Perhaps the disconnect happened when the average gamer decided that no game was good enough to pay for, but was good enough to play 24/7 as long as it was "free" ? :D
    Ok lets go back in time...its the year 2000...How many MMOs do you think are out there even? Ok there was UO and Everquest and...and....and....well if you want to count meridian 59 (which most of us didnt even know existed)...sure we paid but literally had no other option....Lets fast forward to 2017....How many MMOs do you think are out there?...It isnt just a couple anymore, its literally hundreds...Do you think we should pay $15 a month for every single game?....I know I personally would be broke or i wouldnt have even tried 90% of the games I did.....WHat worked in the past just isnt feasible now.
    Azaron_NightbladeGdemami
  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    It isn't a lack of passion, but a lack of choice.  Publishers define how developers make their games and they will always choose what they think is best.  Before WoW ( 2006/2007 ) there was no template for publishers to enforce their idea on what is best, but that was changed with the release of WoW and it's historical rise to the top.   Add in 3 years for the late development teams to start, then add the 5 year development cycle, and that puts us at 2015/2016 with the final year(s) of the WoW influenced era of development.  We are now in the year 2017 and all we hear about are indy and start up projects.....a miracle how it all fits into place.  
  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,414
    I also think they are failing today, because the devs keep trying to clone wow, I mean seriously i've played alot of mmo's after wow, and they all feel like the exact same game just in a diffrent skin. I think thats the problem. To me most mmorpg's feel like a piss-poor single player game, as you don't need anyone for the level process like at all. Remember ff11 back when lv 75 was the cap? you needed people, your rep mattered, people generally helped each other, and stuff took time and effort, nothing in FF11 is handed to you. The problem today is, gamers of today expect everything handed to them without any problem for them. Wow is like this, most mmo's after wow are like this, and I feel its the problem.

    You see people who take a break/quit from wow don't wanna play a mmorpg thats bascally the exact same thing they just quit/took a break from. Thus most lose interest fast. On the flipside, as said people have been babied by wow, any game that actually requires thought is too much for them. Its why most fail, they aren't willing to try anything new, even though they are sick of the wow-formula.

    In my eyes, wow has completly ruined and destroy the mmorpg genre by creating the mmo players it did.

    For more proof at how games cater to casuals/idiots/people who suck, look at .hack GU last recode, they increased player attack power, made leveling char lv and weapon skill levels much faster, as well as nerfed some of the optional hard boss fights. I like all the other things they did except these 4.. why you ask? I played the orignal on ps2 and in no way did I find it hard, or grindy at all. The problem is gamers of todays generation want everything NOW NOW NOW, and expect it handed to them. I mean hell the game even has a frigging cheat mode that starts you at max level for that volume (there are 3 main ones that have cheat mode, and vol4 i assume does not) with good gear, I mean if your willing to go that far games have fallen to a new low.

    Most mmo's these days the leveling process is pretty much this: follow arrows to quest hubs, do quests, move to next quest hub. Repeat till max level. Even a braindead monkey could get to max level when its like that.

    Anyway, I've pretty much given up on mmorpgs, the only ones that interest me now are the ones that ain't quest based, but sadly those ones are also open world gank fests with item loss, which While i don't care if I get ganked, I hate the fact I lose items. I've also given up on AAA games because more often than not they ain't worth the pricetag when a indie game can give a better experence and have more playtime than something 3-4 times its price. Not to mention those games have also gone down the shitter too just like mmorpg's and again its due to todays "gamers" who want everything handed to them.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 366
    Siveria said:
    I also think they are failing today, because the devs keep trying to clone wow, I mean seriously i've played alot of mmo's after wow, and they all feel like the exact same game just in a diffrent skin. I think thats the problem. To me most mmorpg's feel like a piss-poor single player game, as you don't need anyone for the level process like at all. Remember ff11 back when lv 75 was the cap? you needed people, your rep mattered, people generally helped each other, and stuff took time and effort, nothing in FF11 is handed to you. The problem today is, gamers of today expect everything handed to them without any problem for them. Wow is like this, most mmo's after wow are like this, and I feel its the problem.

    You see people who take a break/quit from wow don't wanna play a mmorpg thats bascally the exact same thing they just quit/took a break from. Thus most lose interest fast. On the flipside, as said people have been babied by wow, any game that actually requires thought is too much for them. Its why most fail, they aren't willing to try anything new, even though they are sick of the wow-formula.

    In my eyes, wow has completly ruined and destroy the mmorpg genre by creating the mmo players it did.

    For more proof at how games cater to casuals/idiots/people who suck, look at .hack GU last recode, they increased player attack power, made leveling char lv and weapon skill levels much faster, as well as nerfed some of the optional hard boss fights. I like all the other things they did except these 4.. why you ask? I played the orignal on ps2 and in no way did I find it hard, or grindy at all. The problem is gamers of todays generation want everything NOW NOW NOW, and expect it handed to them. I mean hell the game even has a frigging cheat mode that starts you at max level for that volume (there are 3 main ones that have cheat mode, and vol4 i assume does not) with good gear, I mean if your willing to go that far games have fallen to a new low.

    Most mmo's these days the leveling process is pretty much this: follow arrows to quest hubs, do quests, move to next quest hub. Repeat till max level. Even a braindead monkey could get to max level when its like that.

    Anyway, I've pretty much given up on mmorpgs, the only ones that interest me now are the ones that ain't quest based, but sadly those ones are also open world gank fests with item loss, which While i don't care if I get ganked, I hate the fact I lose items. I've also given up on AAA games because more often than not they ain't worth the pricetag when a indie game can give a better experence and have more playtime than something 3-4 times its price. Not to mention those games have also gone down the shitter too just like mmorpg's and again its due to todays "gamers" who want everything handed to them.
    What do you mean by WoW clone?  If by that you mean a quest driven MMO with abilities on a hotbar, then . . . well, I guess there's a lot of them, but I can only think of 3 that really fit the "WoW Clone" term.  Rift, LotRO, and FXIV.  All of these are highly successful MMOs. 

    I get a little tired these days of seeing the term WoW Clone tossed around like it should explain away a crappy game.  Think of it this way: Both WoW and FFXI were EQ clones, yet they couldn't be more different.  WoW changed the way questing works while FFXI added a real story.  Obviously, those weren't the only changes, but it does serve to illustrate my point.  It's not about the similarities between games.  It's about the differences.  Why do we only do this with MMOs?  Titan Quest is a Diablo 2 "clone" yet it isn't ridiculed as being such.  Every FPS is in some way a Doom / Quake clone, yet none are ridiculed for it.  Why?  Because it would be ridiculous to ridicule a shooter for having shooting elements.  The differences between those games, no matter how small, can make a significant impact for the player.

    I do agree that many games (WoW included) have taken QoL changes over the years (teleporting, dungeon finders, movement speed, etc) WAY too far.  I think many of these features ruin the feel of the world, and IMO, MMOs should be all about the world and those in it.  I think that, while important, combat and gameplay mechanics should play a less significant role than world building and community. 

    No one is complaining about all the Bejeweled clones out there polluting the mobile game space, yet quest driven MMOs are just more dirty WoW clones.  Mobile devs are the ones trying to make a quick buck.  The gaming landscape may be different today than it was 10 years ago, but I can't in good conscience call them without passion.  That's just flat out wrong.



  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,939
    MMORPG are dying in the face of mobile apps.  PC Master Race has been ko'd.
    LienhartPhry


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