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Are game companies following the law on gambling (ones located in the US)

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  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    "Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration, chance and prize."


    Consideration
     

    Chance


    Prize

    Kyleran
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    edited August 2017
    I am not a lawyer, and anything I say is not legal advice.  You are encouraged to seek your own competent legal advice.  The game industry has been fearful of gambling for many years.  Games that had gambling as part of it's lore did not include gambling as a game mechanic out of fear of regulations.  But we have seen gambling in single player games, and as stated here something that appears to be gambling is now appearing in multiplayer games.

    But here is the loop hole, the customer does not win anything of value.  The customer is paying for a license to use the software.  The software and all assets remain the property of the respective company.  When you quite the game, the asset is not leaving with you.  Legally the assets have no value.  

    One may argue that they can turn around and sell something to another player for an amount of money.  In the eyes of the law they own noting and have sold nothing of any real value.  Money has been traded, and will be taxed.

    So the statement now becomes, "risking something of value on an uncertain event in hopes of winning something of no value."  The courts have a hard time interpreting that as gambling.  This may change in time.  So long as someone in the real world asks, "Why are you spending good money on non real things?"  Until customers get in in their heads, that they don't "own" software they are only renting it.  This misunderstanding will continue to exist.

    Again nothing in this post is legal advice.  Hire a lawyer and pay to have them confirm it for you.  You still wont believe it or understand it.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    edited August 2017
    DMKano said:
    "Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration, chance and prize."


    Consideration
     

    Chance


    Prize



    Lootboxes and in game currency does not carry any real world value - so thats where your post falters.

    Once in game gear, loot and currency is recognized and traded on RL money markets and you can buy real world goods using in-game currency, we can talk.


    If I was being willfully obtuse I'd agree with you, but they do carry real world value thanks to Trion/XL participating in RMT. They have in essence set the start value of their gambling tokens. One can show how real world currency exchanges into the in game currency and back out and how it depreciates or appreciates.

    Trion/XL not providing players a way to "cash out" is the loophole, but there are avenues which players take to do so. Making pretend this is just a bunch of silly players placing value on imaginary items isn't being forthright. Especially from a person who claims to be a Trion "insider". Trion sets the market value of the items with RMT, players and demand determine the +\-.  This is why RMT + RNG is a slippery slope all of which would be avoided if Archeage was a subscription game.

    Like I said, current laws are archaic which is why you're able to play dense with a straight face, but you and I both know $1 = 80g-150g depending on what server you're on. So YES the contents of those RNG boxes do have value. You have to gamble to get them, Trion/XL places added value on the items with in-game advantages.

    Players can either gamble, play the Archeage APEX/gold market to pay gamblers OR circumvent Trion all together (which they love so much because it's not gambling and none of it has value right? =\).
    GdemamialkarionlogAsm0deus
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • BryanCliffordBryanClifford Member CommonPosts: 3
    In general, everything is good for a civilized developed country. And the laws are working, and the treasury is filled, and of course there is a little black market. I think in general everything is good in America from gambling. Who wants to play, I am sure much more often than in other countries. The whole problem is not that laws in other casinos are worse, but that no one executes them.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,097
    DMKano said:
    It's not gambling so gambling laws don't apply.
    It is very iffy.  MMO goods have had real life value since Everquest.  Using barriers to distance money from the spins doesn't work for casinos. A lot of this is unregulated because political people are unlikely to know, care and or understand. It would likely take the media beating the anti video game drum.  
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,060
    edited August 2018
    FlyByKnight said:
    One can show how real world currency exchanges into the in game currency and back out and how it depreciates or appreciates.
    How do you convert ingame currency into real world currency?
    FlyByKnight
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Gdemami said:
    FlyByKnight said:
    One can show how real world currency exchanges into the in game currency and back out and how it depreciates or appreciates.
    How do you convert ingame currency into real world currency?
    That's the relevant question, at least for my state. With our gambling laws these wouldn't be considered at all, except maybe like pull-tabs which only have entertainment value level of rewards.

    If they did consider loot-crates or in app purchases as gambling or predatory they would probably just slap a 21+ label on it. That's what we've done for regular gambling, alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis. They require purchasers be 21+. Businesses and events have to jump through tons of hoops and permits to sell them.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited August 2018
    Gdemami said:
    FlyByKnight said:
    One can show how real world currency exchanges into the in game currency and back out and how it depreciates or appreciates.
    How do you convert ingame currency into real world currency?
    By carrying the copper, of course.

    EDIT- thank you @Torval.  I was starting to think my joke was woefully esoteric.
    Post edited by MadFrenchie on
    TorvalAlBQuirky

    image
  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,293
    Torval said:
    Gdemami said:
    FlyByKnight said:
    One can show how real world currency exchanges into the in game currency and back out and how it depreciates or appreciates.
    How do you convert ingame currency into real world currency?
    That's the relevant question, at least for my state. With our gambling laws these wouldn't be considered at all, except maybe like pull-tabs which only have entertainment value level of rewards.

    If they did consider loot-crates or in app purchases as gambling or predatory they would probably just slap a 21+ label on it. That's what we've done for regular gambling, alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis. They require purchasers be 21+. Businesses and events have to jump through tons of hoops and permits to sell them.
    ask the gold sellers? people selling gear or gold for money is nothing new

    only reason they have not law to stop this or the very least tax it, is most politician are too idiots to even know the diference, most are so damn old I doubt they know how to use a smartphone even less know what the population really need, unless if its a way to raise the money they can collect then they find a way pretty fast.

    nowadays on my country now even steam pay special taxes for games they are selling, its was not as cheap what is was.

    so serious let time go wait for most vampires in congress die out, when some new blood join up you can be sure you guys will be a lot of fun paying even more
    Gdemami
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
  • shouka20181shouka20181 Member CommonPosts: 3
    我认为人们在游戏中需要记住的是那些漏洞
    KyleranConstantineMerus
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 1,029
    Until loot boxes are defined as gambling under the law in the U.S., the U.S. gambling laws won't apply to them. Personal opinions as to their nature don't count.
    KyleranrojoArcueid
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,103
    我认为人们在游戏中需要记住的是那些漏洞
    Alright @Kyleran, since you thought this was an awesome post, could you translate it for me, a stupid uni-lingual poster? ;)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,695
    AlBQuirky said:
    我认为人们在游戏中需要记住的是那些漏洞
    Alright @Kyleran, since you thought this was an awesome post, could you translate it for me, a stupid uni-lingual poster? ;)
    I think people need to remember those vulnerabilities in the game.
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,695
    Gdemami said:
    FlyByKnight said:
    One can show how real world currency exchanges into the in game currency and back out and how it depreciates or appreciates.
    How do you convert ingame currency into real world currency?
    By carrying the copper, of course.

    EDIT- thank you @Torval.  I was starting to think my joke was woefully esoteric.
    It is. That's why he loled. 
    Torval
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    DMKano said:
    "Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements to be present: consideration, chance and prize."


    Consideration
     

    Chance


    Prize



    Lootboxes and in game currency does not carry any real world value - so thats where your post falters.

    Once in game gear, loot and currency is recognized and traded on RL money markets and you can buy real world goods using in-game currency, we can talk.


    Currency has no actual value either, outside of what goods and services someone will give you for it.

    Makes little difference if you can sell someone an in game item for $200 or trade them your used guitar worth the same amount, clearly the in game item has a definitive value.

    How about Bitcoin? Not traded on official currency markets, just a virtual item someone will give you real life currency for.

    Could you gamble with Bitcoins? How are they really any different?

    Several games plan to start selling their own version of Bitcoins with the intent for players to trade them like currency.

    At the end of the day it is clearly a form of gambling, this modern age we live in chamges up the definitions a bit is all.
    Asm0deusGdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,345
    edited September 2018
    Until loot boxes are defined as gambling under the law in the U.S., the U.S. gambling laws won't apply to them. Personal opinions as to their nature don't count.
    US law don't consider it gambling right now because they use only 1 definition of gambling (playing games of chance for money).

    If they applied ALL definitions of gambling (taking a risk for a desired result - a desired result can be anything, not just money) to this case then lootboxes will be considered gambling 100%.

    My thoughts: they are gambling and i hope they get banned globally in video games, leave them to the casinos. Video games can sell me the items separately. And no, just because it is a single item doesn't automatically mean it has to be sold at three times the price, that's just a scam practice people do to control the market.


    GdemamiOG_Zorvan




  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,345
    edited September 2018
    DMKano said:

    If they applied ALL definitions of gambling (taking a risk for a desired result - a desired result can be anything, not just money) to this case then lootboxes will be considered gambling 100%.



    This would also apply to about million other things that are not lootboxes too - as "taking a risk for a desired result" is FAR too big of a net.
    yes, but just like the other definition, it is taken on a case by case basis. This is specifically about gambling in video games.

    EDIT: the first definition - taking a risk for money also applies to a million other things outside of games.

    And all definitions also apply to video games.
    GdemamiOG_Zorvan




  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523

    And this is a site that describes gambling

    https://www.what-is-gambling.com/


    Hate to tell you this, but the only definition for gambling that counts is the one defined by the laws that govern it.  You can't just hand-pick your own definition to suit you.  If there is a law against loot boxes for example (that is enforceable), the parties that wrote said law defines what is and is not a loot box.

    Game companies may choose to cease business in some regions due to the local laws, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are violating the law, it just means they choose not to go through the headache of a court proceeding to prove their case.

    If people had the fortitude to refrain from spending money willy nilly, you wouldn't need frivolous laws such as this to protect them.  Remember, some states have laws (still on the books) for some of the most inane things.  Just because there is a law, doesn't mean there should be.
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,103
    DMKano said:
    btdt said:
     Remember, some states have laws (still on the books) for some of the most inane things.  Just because there is a law, doesn't mean there should be.
    https://www.rd.com/funny-stuff/dumbest-laws-america/
    Louis M Boyd used to write a syndicated column back in the day that often times talked about laws still on the books that never got rescinded. I recall one where somewhere in the Northeast US, one could get arrested for carrying an ice cream cone in their pocket. Still on the books (as of 20 or so years ago). I enjoyed his columns and miss his wit :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Kyleran said:
    Digital items have no actual cash value, unless you are talking crypto currencies,  hence there is no gambling involved. 
    As well as sodtware companies the music industry and those who sell digital downloads (arguably even music on cds etc is digital), the film and TV industry, authors and book publishers, game companies!, even ISPs .... would disagree with you. The EU Supreme court has as well.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    edited September 2018
    Are legislators slow to react? Probably. How slow will vary by country: EU, US, China, Japan, China, Australia, NZ etc. etc.

    Now some countries are just "slow". Period. For other countries however it can be about finding a balance. It is very easy for a country to do nothing. It would also be very easy for a country e.g. make "lootboxes" illegal - with wide sweeping, all embracing wording taking into account intermediate currencies as well. Enforcing the ban would be the issue but they could pass a draconian law.

    The hard path is to find the happy medium. The sweet spot. Laws that are broadly respected by most people and that the companies who are impacted agree with - making enforcement "easier".

    Doing this internationally - yeah. 
    Gdemami
  • deusexhappydeusexhappy Member CommonPosts: 1
    Plenty of games violate this or use it as an excuse for scams. Perfect World International, for example, cited the China developers prohibiting the sale of a loot box which gave one specific type of card/gear, but they didn't do anything about the continued sale of other boxes which also gave out gear. Indeed, the remaining boxes involve more gambling since the card/gears are even more random. The point isn't which companies follow the 'rules', it is what customers can't do about it. MMOs like PWI hide behind their TOS, saying by playing we have all 'signed' their contract, which means they own all virtual properties and we have no rights.

    Just recently, PWI promoted a reward to entire players to participate every week for a 7 month tournament. You have to invest money and time to win (since it is a pay to win game). Guess what? 3 weeks after the end of the tournament, PWI announced they will give out only 2.5% of the promoted rewards. It is deceptive marketing, fraud at worst, but there is nothing customers can do about it since the law right now protects online gaming companies more than it does us. 
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,103
    Plenty of games violate this or use it as an excuse for scams. Perfect World International, for example, cited the China developers prohibiting the sale of a loot box which gave one specific type of card/gear, but they didn't do anything about the continued sale of other boxes which also gave out gear. Indeed, the remaining boxes involve more gambling since the card/gears are even more random. The point isn't which companies follow the 'rules', it is what customers can't do about it. MMOs like PWI hide behind their TOS, saying by playing we have all 'signed' their contract, which means they own all virtual properties and we have no rights.

    Just recently, PWI promoted a reward to entire players to participate every week for a 7 month tournament. You have to invest money and time to win (since it is a pay to win game). Guess what? 3 weeks after the end of the tournament, PWI announced they will give out only 2.5% of the promoted rewards. It is deceptive marketing, fraud at worst, but there is nothing customers can do about it since the law right now protects online gaming companies more than it does us. 
    Welcome to the boards!

    I'm no fan of PWI, but there is something players can do. Stop playing PWI games. Won't ever happen, though, because us gamers seem to treat all video games like heroine. We just can't seem to stop playing :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    edited September 2018
    Kyleran said:
    DMKano said:
    Currency has no actual value either, outside of what goods and services someone will give you for it.

    Makes little difference if you can sell someone an in game item for $200 or trade them your used guitar worth the same amount, clearly the in game item has a definitive value.

    How about Bitcoin? Not traded on official currency markets, just a virtual item someone will give you real life currency for.

    Could you gamble with Bitcoins? How are they really any different?

    Several games plan to start selling their own version of Bitcoins with the intent for players to trade them like currency.

    At the end of the day it is clearly a form of gambling, this modern age we live in chamges up the definitions a bit is all.

    gervaise1 said:
    Kyleran said:
    Digital items have no actual cash value, unless you are talking crypto currencies, hence there is no gambling involved. 
    As well as software companies the music industry and those who sell digital downloads (arguably even music on cds etc is digital), the film and TV industry, authors and book publishers, game companies!, even ISPs .... would disagree with you. The EU Supreme court has as well.
    Apparently in a year's time since that first post was made I've come to disagree with myself.

    Can't believe how wrong that guy was.

    ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,411
    AlBQuirky said:
    I'm no fan of PWI, but there is something players can do. Stop playing PWI games. Won't ever happen, though, because us gamers seem to treat all video games like heroine. We just can't seem to stop playing :)
    Hmm I have no problems with stopping playing a bad game.

    In fact I have trouble keeping to play many good games. At some point its just enough and I move on.

    Thats the great feature of MMOs that because of social connections, you never lose the motivation to play.
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
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