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why pve is better

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,589
    By your own admission they still happen though. NPC's don't do that which is what he stated.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • RufusUORufusUO Member UncommonPosts: 37
    When I first read the title, I had a strong suspicion that this was a troll thread.

    After looking through the pages and seeing the OP disappear after p1, I suspect it was intended to spark flame wars between others.

    Resist the bait, friends, resiiiiiiist!
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164
    edited August 2017
    Loke666 said:
    What we need is something in between full loot and no loot, just let people drop one item instead of all of them. And yes, there is already a game that been doing something like that since 1999: Lineage.
    Asheron's Call had that too. You didn't drop all your items, just a few of your most expensive ones. You could cover your worn gear with expensive stuff. Death and looting would still cost, but you wouldn't end naked and defenseless.
    Also, low levels didn't drop crap. So noob camping was pointless except for being a true asshole.
    And levels didn't matter as much as player skill, a skilled level 20 could easily beat a bad level 40.
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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Asheron's Call had that too. You didn't drop all your items, just a few of your most expensive ones. You could cover your worn gear with expensive stuff. Death and looting would still cost, but you wouldn't end naked and defenseless.
    Also, low levels didn't drop crap. So noob camping was pointless except for being a true asshole.
    And levels didn't matter as much as player skill, a skilled level 20 could easily beat a bad level 40.
    Heh, forgot  about that. Yeah, AC was a good game. :)
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    You don't make any sense, what the hell has what you're wearing and drop on the first death to do with being spawn/zone camped.
    And you pretend being more experienced?

    This is exactly what kills FFA PvP games. And this is what already forced UO to patch in Trammel during renaissance, to stop the massive player bleeding.
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, (((( doesn't camp your graveyard))) doesn't follow you around in low level areas.

    I assumed you meant your gravestone, which contain items after death. I also assumed that one would return to such a place to retrieve such items, equipment, etcetera. If this is not what you meant... then I apologize for any misunderstandings. =)

    image
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Loke666 said:
    If you are dying over and over again from the same person means you haven't learned any from your death.

    If you are being camped that's means you failed a very basic PvP rule "Only wear what you can afford to lose". Every experienced PvP player knows this and if I die I consider my items forfeit.

    I would expect corpse camping, repeated deaths and noob camping to happen to someone new to PvP games... not someone who's been playing for 20 years.
    There have always been a problem with that thinking: What is the need of any above basic gear if you wont wear it?


    The only problem I see is the mentality gamers go into a PvP game with. Gear in a PvP FL MMO and Gear in a PvE are wildly different and should not be viewed the same.

    Before you go out you are supposed to have a healthy set of items to prepare for your death. You should be able to craft the very basic items needed to fight efficiently. Armor shouldn't determine the outcome of your encounter, only how many mistakes were made. I've seen skilled players even in games like DaoC (which gear is a factor) completely obliterate other players NAKED. This however, is not the goal, the goal is you being able to craft the essentials yourself and prepare for your death. 

    My mentality "If you can beat me... you were going to beat me no matter what I was wearing"

    image
  • SirBalinSirBalin Member UncommonPosts: 1,300
    pvp in a nutshell

    win

    1. u play good
    2. u feed but team play good
    3. opponent play bad
    4. lucky

    lose 

    1. u play bad
    2. u play good but team feed like hell
    3. opponent play good
    4. bad luck

    pve? win everything and roleplay in your mind
    Bottom line, games need pvp and pve servers.  To often they try to make both pvers and pvpers happy on the same server and in the end, both sides will never be happy.
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,581
    The reason why PVE is better for me is at the end of the day I want to like my fellow players, not dislike them....I would rather work together with other players than fight against them.
    That's probably one of the most understandable explanations I have seen.

    That said, my counter would be that if NPCs were really intelligent then it should be hard to distinguish between an AI controlled NPC and a player.

    Right thats up to the devs and game makers.....They have to quit making so much of it so easy that we dont need anyone else.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The only problem I see is the mentality gamers go into a PvP game with. Gear in a PvP FL MMO and Gear in a PvE are wildly different and should not be viewed the same.

    Before you go out you are supposed to have a healthy set of items to prepare for your death. You should be able to craft the very basic items needed to fight efficiently. Armor shouldn't determine the outcome of your encounter, only how many mistakes were made. I've seen skilled players even in games like DaoC (which gear is a factor) completely obliterate other players NAKED. This however, is not the goal, the goal is you being able to craft the essentials yourself and prepare for your death. 

    My mentality "If you can beat me... you were going to beat me no matter what I was wearing"
    Yes, and you would loose any gear with the Lineage/AC system as well, just not by dying a single time.

    Constantly replacing all gear adds a rather boring grind to a game.  Yeah, it is a kick to defeat someone and loot them but a single item would give you almost the same kick. You can also put a little more work into gear.

    Gear certainly should not be the determined factor of a battle, just an edge.

    Anyways: the majority of people hate full loot PvP. The single loot thing can and will attract much more players. Lineage had 4 million players last winter (unsure now), that is subscribing players and it peaked way higher. How much players have the top full loot game ever had?

    It was UOs peak at 450K players, right?

    While it is fine to make small niche game for a specific crowd I think we need something more then that and a full loot game won't deliver it. So if we want a popular PvP game we will either get something instanced with zero loot or something more like Lineage with open world and a single lootable item each time. Both those methods work and have clearly generated many players in the past.
    Torval
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164
    Loke666 said:

    It was UOs peak at 450K players, right?
    It was 250K, and let's not forget this was 2 years AFTER Trammel was introduced.
    Phry
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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    It was 250K, and let's not forget this was 2 years AFTER Trammel was introduced.
    My misstake, checked on a wall of text and accidently looked on the next line which was EQ. :blush:

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,185
    edited August 2017
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    Maybe they should, instead of standing around like brainless statues.

    I'd actually like to see a MMO where the AI was a real threat for players to overcome,  but just as with unbalanced PVP I doubt many would enjoy it.

    People generally expect to win, especially in PVE,  take that away and my guess is few will play.

    Although...modern survival games appear to somewhat rely on this design, and are quite popular, so perhaps I'm underestimating the demand.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Kyleran said:
    Maybe they should, instead of standing around like brainless statues.

    I'd actually like to see a MMO where the AI was a real threat for players to overcome,  but just as with unbalanced PVP I doubt many would enjoy it.

    People generally expect to win, especially in PVE,  take that away and my guess is few will play.

    Although...modern survival games appear to somewhat rely on this design, and are quite popular, so perhaps I'm underestimating the demand.
    The hard thing is to get the AI just right, you don't want it to be better then human players after all, just similar or just below.

    I think enough people would enjoy it, not as many as enjoyed Wow of course but still enough to make a pretty good profit if the rest of the game is good.
    Torval
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    RufusUO said:
    When I first read the title, I had a strong suspicion that this was a troll thread.

    After looking through the pages and seeing the OP disappear after p1, I suspect it was intended to spark flame wars between others.

    Resist the bait, friends, resiiiiiiist!
    why? flame wars are fun. It is not like there are a lot of new MMOs to talk about here, unless you count Destiny and games like that. 
  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    too easy pve is bad. see gw2, its a good game, spvp/wvw is fun but pve is very easy... look at ragnarok online, pve is fun because its more dangerous...some map has mvp that can come to u..win everything get bored 
    Phry
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    too easy pve is bad. see gw2, its a good game, spvp/wvw is fun but pve is very easy... look at ragnarok online, pve is fun because its more dangerous...some map has mvp that can come to u..win everything get bored 
    That would be a good argument, if Ragnarok Online was a more popular game than GW2, as it stands i don't even know if Ragnarok Online is even in the top 20 games, i haven't tried the game however so i don't know why Ragnarok Online is unpopular except perhaps that its a really old game? tbh all i know is that it was a bit similar to maple story, which is/was a 2d sprite game. :/
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,581
    Most of the time people choose the path of least resistance in PVE...At level 10 you could fight that level 15 mob where you have a chance to die, or you could just crush level 5 mobs all day without having to even think...msot people that say PVE is too easy choose the level 5 route and dont go after more difficult mobs.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Most of the time people choose the path of least resistance in PVE...At level 10 you could fight that level 15 mob where you have a chance to die, or you could just crush level 5 mobs all day without having to even think...msot people that say PVE is too easy choose the level 5 route and dont go after more difficult mobs.
    Usually fighting the higher mobs means longer recovery time between fights plus most of the time the experience received from killing a higher isn't even worth it. Why would a player waste 10 mins killing two level 15 NPC's when he could plow through a dozen in less time for the same experience?

    image
  • netglennetglen Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Even on a free privately run MMORPG like Project 1999, there is no longer any demand for PvP except from a few squeaky angry players. The blue PvE server is thriving while the red PvP server barely has any population.  PvP is a dead concept in MMORPGs but there are plenty of dedicated shooters for your so called leet needs.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,676
    PVE= creating friends
    PVP= creating enemies

    Pretty tough to decide which is better long term and for the entirety of the game.I played pvp extensively for a lot of years and even after joining mmorpg's i was still playing more pvp.

    It became a no brainer for me,the pvp community was angrier more hostile and more cheating.The PVE community was hit n miss but offered a much better CHANCE at a nice long term environment for gaming.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,128
    Wizardry said:
    PVE= creating friends
    PVP= creating enemies

    Pretty tough to decide which is better long term and for the entirety of the game.I played pvp extensively for a lot of years and even after joining mmorpg's i was still playing more pvp.

    It became a no brainer for me,the pvp community was angrier more hostile and more cheating.The PVE community was hit n miss but offered a much better CHANCE at a nice long term environment for gaming.
    The friends I made playing PvP games seem to be much deeper and last through many games.  They may be fewer in quantity but higher in quality... in my experience

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Come on, Iselin, you're usually better than that ;)
    It's pretty simple... the mob usually doesn't kill you over and over again, doesn't camp your graveyard, doesn't follow you around in low level areas.
    You don't sound as if you have a lot of experience with PvP games...
    Yeah, I just started with UO beta 20+ years ago. My experience is quite short indeed.

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  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,164
    pve is fun because its more dangerous...
    Is it really?
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    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Wizardry said:
    PVE= creating friends
    PVP= creating enemies

    Pretty tough to decide which is better long term and for the entirety of the game.I played pvp extensively for a lot of years and even after joining mmorpg's i was still playing more pvp.

    It became a no brainer for me,the pvp community was angrier more hostile and more cheating.The PVE community was hit n miss but offered a much better CHANCE at a nice long term environment for gaming.
    The friends I made playing PvP games seem to be much deeper and last through many games.  They may be fewer in quantity but higher in quality... in my experience
    Exactly, Good luck surviving a FL PvP MMO without friends...

    Wizardry, of course the PvP community was angrier ... They have more risk, more at stake and more to lose

    You can't just go AFK and eat your food then go back to pulling mannequins for experience lol


    image
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    too easy pve is bad. see gw2, its a good game, spvp/wvw is fun but pve is very easy... look at ragnarok online, pve is fun because its more dangerous...some map has mvp that can come to u..win everything get bored 
    That is because Ragnarok is an old game and all the whining we got after GW2s first beta week when the difficulty actually was just right. They nerf it down like no tomorrow since and whenever a new zone comes out with even a minimal challenge people whine.

    It is also possible that Japanese are less whiny then westerners about difficulty.

    We did BTW write a long list stating GW2s difficulty was good but there were so many times more whiners that we were chansless. And more then a few of them were on this forum (still mad on them).
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