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why pve is better

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  • alivenaliven Member UncommonPosts: 346
    Keller said:


    PvE usually comes with a very toxic community, with many egocentric/egoistic players. While in PvP usually you do try to have eachothers back.  
    Bizzaro universe in a nutshell. 
    PhrySpottyGekko
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    aliven said:
    Keller said:


    PvE usually comes with a very toxic community, with many egocentric/egoistic players. While in PvP usually you do try to have eachothers back.  
    Bizzaro universe in a nutshell. 
    I disagree, i think the problem is really not so much as to whether a game is predominantly PVE or PVP, when it comes to toxic behaviour it exists in both genres, but i believe it is more predominant among younger players, i've even noticed this in CS:GO, when you have young players they tend to get overly emotional and lose control, not just when they are losing, but when they are winning too, older more mature players are more likely to handle both the winning and the losing gracefully and are less likely to indulge in 'trash talking', now while that might seem to indicate that its mostly in PVP games, and they certainly are present in great numbers in such competitive games, they also tend to behave in the same fashion in PVE games, though usually its only really noticeable in dungeon runs and raids, specifically any activity that requires players to work together.
    A way of fixing this would entail enforcing games age ratings with greater efficiency, which sadly is unlikely, until that actually is possible, the best you can do is block them and carry on, though i have to wonder, how it is that so many apparent 12 year olds are able to play games like CS:GO without any problems, i can only think that their parents are either uncaring, or are just not getting involved in their childrens daily lives except on a minimal basis. :/
    Octagon7711
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,156
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    LOL...
    OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch.   Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us :)

    I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
    Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
    Thanks for demonstrating it.

    Cazriel
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,102
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    LOL...
    OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch.   Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us :)

    I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
    Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
    Thanks for demonstrating it.

    The EXACT same thing Big Guy.   You think that makes you special?  Yeah I also played on Atlantic and Chesapeake.  I was never a DreadLord.. I played blue.
    You said you hate MMORPG PvP and like Overwatch.  GOOD!  Go play it!
    Leave the MMORPG PvP to those of us who enjoy it.  It's a fairly simple concept.  If you like something go do it.  If you dislike something, avoid it.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,589
    Overall pie more than cake. Cake is generally too much dough for me. But there are a few cakes that beat everything.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,156
    edited August 2017
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    LOL...
    OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch.   Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us :)

    I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
    Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
    Thanks for demonstrating it.

    The EXACT same thing Big Guy.   You think that makes you special?  Yeah I also played on Atlantic and Chesapeake.  I was never a DreadLord.. I played blue.
    You said you hate MMORPG PvP and like Overwatch.  GOOD!  Go play it!
    Leave the MMORPG PvP to those of us who enjoy it.  It's a fairly simple concept.  If you like something go do it.  If you dislike something, avoid it.

    And what do you think I'm doing, Mr Smartass? ;)
    Since I have a quite extensive experience of all kinds of MMORPG PvP ranging from FFA Full Loot to battlegrounds, it doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion about it, just as you do it.
    So if you expect me to shut up about this topic, you are very wrong.

    I love PvP, and that's why I gave up on it in MMORPGs. That game style is too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time.

    But WoW is getting close to having it right, so there's hope.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • Tuor7Tuor7 Member UncommonPosts: 941
    waynejr2 said:
    DMKano said:
    Cake vs Pie

    It's a personal preference - one, neither or both

    Also, Vanilla Ice Cream is better than Chocolate Ice Cream!

    Heathen! Such vile heresy shall not go unpunished! 
    tort0429
  • TokkenTokken Member RarePosts: 2,471
    edited August 2017
    Everyone has their own opinion, mine is Dutch Apple Pie and German Chocolate Cake! :smiley:
    Make PvE GREAT Again!
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 502
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    LOL...
    OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch.   Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us :)

    I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
    Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
    Thanks for demonstrating it.

    The EXACT same thing Big Guy.   You think that makes you special?  Yeah I also played on Atlantic and Chesapeake.  I was never a DreadLord.. I played blue.
    You said you hate MMORPG PvP and like Overwatch.  GOOD!  Go play it!
    Leave the MMORPG PvP to those of us who enjoy it.  It's a fairly simple concept.  If you like something go do it.  If you dislike something, avoid it.

    And what do you think I'm doing, Mr Smartass? ;)
    Since I have a quite extensive experience of all kinds of MMORPG PvP ranging from FFA Full Loot to battlegrounds, it doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion about it, just as you do it.
    So if you expect me to shut up about this topic, you are very wrong.

    I love PvP, and that's why I gave up on it in MMORPGs. That game style is too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time.

    But WoW is getting close to having it right, so there's hope.

    So basically if you like pvp then you shouldn't play mmos? That's makes a lot of sense. You pick overwatch which is a mediocre shooter and is all about the flavor of the month, 2 char meta. I like big battles with skills/spells/team work. That is not overwatch. I do agree that pvp hasn't really been done right in mmos though, tossing in a bunch of players in an open world and flipping the pvp switch on with no objective at all gets boring fast. But please tell me the difference between that and overwatch? 
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    DMKano said:
    Cake vs Pie

    It's a personal preference - one, neither or both
    Sure, but some games are doing a far better work at one or the other thing. If we are talking about equally good gameplay it is just your personal preference but in many MMO cases the PvP is a sloppy afterthought cynically added to show you have more features in the game.

    There are certainly games that have done a good job at both things but I think a lot of the MMO preference towareds PvP comes from the majorities terrible PvP.

    It is like choosing between a vanilla and chocolate icecream (as someone said), only that the chocolate is half melted and someone dropped it on the floor.

    If we actually get a few more good PvP MMORPGs I think we will see more People enjoying PvP. It might still lean towards PvE but not at the currently huge difference.
    Jean-Luc_Picard
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,156

    So basically if you like pvp then you shouldn't play mmos?
    Please quote the precise post where I said such a thing.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
    CPU: Intel Core I7 9700k (4.90ghz) - GPU: ASUS Dual GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER EVO 8GB DDR6 - RAM: 32GB Kingston HyperX Predator DDR4 3000 - Motherboard: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - PSU: Antec TruePower New 750W - Storage: Kingston KC1000 NVMe 960gb SSD and 2x1TB WD Velociraptor HDDs (Raid 0) - Main display: Samsung U32J590 32" 4K monitor - Second display: Philips 273v 27" monitor - VR: Pimax 8K headset - Sound: Sony STR-DH550 AV Receiver HDMI linked with the GPU and the TV, with Jamo S 426 HS 3 5.0 speakers and Pioneer S-21W subwoofer - OS: Windows 10 Pro 64 bits.


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,102
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    LOL...
    OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch.   Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us :)

    I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
    Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
    Thanks for demonstrating it.

    The EXACT same thing Big Guy.   You think that makes you special?  Yeah I also played on Atlantic and Chesapeake.  I was never a DreadLord.. I played blue.
    You said you hate MMORPG PvP and like Overwatch.  GOOD!  Go play it!
    Leave the MMORPG PvP to those of us who enjoy it.  It's a fairly simple concept.  If you like something go do it.  If you dislike something, avoid it.

    And what do you think I'm doing, Mr Smartass? ;)
    Since I have a quite extensive experience of all kinds of MMORPG PvP ranging from FFA Full Loot to battlegrounds, it doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion about it, just as you do it.
    So if you expect me to shut up about this topic, you are very wrong.

    I love PvP, and that's why I gave up on it in MMORPGs. That game style is too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time.

    But WoW is getting close to having it right, so there's hope.
    Which brings us right back to my first response:
    "Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."

    If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.

    Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs.  Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP.  Different strokes for different folks.

    If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH...    heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game.  It's a good game for what it is.   It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine.   What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online.  It's closer to Madden than UO.

    If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer.  I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.



    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,309
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?

    Isn't there some kind of ego issue also involved in tolerating one of those but not the other?

    To me the guy who gets too much satisfaction out of ganking the under-geared lowbees is just a different version of the lowbee who gets too upset about it.

    In progression games you... umm...  progress.
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Which brings us right back to my first response:
    "Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."

    If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.

    Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs.  Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP.  Different strokes for different folks.

    If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH...    heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game.  It's a good game for what it is.   It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine.   What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online.  It's closer to Madden than UO.

    If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer.  I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.
    That is true but a few of the MMOs have had far higher percentage of PvP fans then the rest.

    And yeah, DaoC is one of those games, Guildwars, Eve and SWG are a few others. I would say that this point towards a lot of room for improvement with PvP MMOs, particularly ones few low percentage of PvP players.

    And I still agree with Picard that an unbeatable God wacking peasants is not very fun.

    I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.

    Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course. Making PvE and PvP more like 2 sides of the same coins is certainly better then having a seperate system based on taunts for PvE.

    MMORPG PvP should not be like Overwatch or Lol but that does not mean it is as good as it can get.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,102
    Loke666 said:
    Which brings us right back to my first response:
    "Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."

    If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.

    Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs.  Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP.  Different strokes for different folks.

    If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH...    heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game.  It's a good game for what it is.   It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine.   What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online.  It's closer to Madden than UO.

    If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer.  I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.
    That is true but a few of the MMOs have had far higher percentage of PvP fans then the rest.

    And yeah, DaoC is one of those games, Guildwars, Eve and SWG are a few others. I would say that this point towards a lot of room for improvement with PvP MMOs, particularly ones few low percentage of PvP players.

    And I still agree with Picard that an unbeatable God wacking peasants is not very fun.

    I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.

    Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course. Making PvE and PvP more like 2 sides of the same coins is certainly better then having a seperate system based on taunts for PvE.

    MMORPG PvP should not be like Overwatch or Lol but that does not mean it is as good as it can get.
    Fully agree.  you hit the nail on the head here:
    "Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course."

    I've said this for years.  That is the true issue.  AI in MMORPGs is silly.. as someone else mentioned above.. NPCs most closely resemble loot bags than guards...

    Make the AI challenging and then you don't need to have boss mobs with 231121213213 HPs and you won't need to do godlike damage to have a chance.  

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Not until PvE actually uses something resembling semi-realistic AI.

    But by all means,  if standing 20 feet down a hall of "guards" who stand there while you "pull" them one at at time turns you on, go knock yourself out.

    There is hope for the future of game AI.  A bot just recently out laned a DOTA 2 pro, something many people said would never happen.
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/12/16138942/dota-2-bot-vs-human-international-2017

    Slapshot1188Kyleran

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?

    ...
    That's reaching, lol

    In MMORPG's. mobs of different levels are confined to specific zones. L40 players can stick to appropriate PVE zones, knowing that the mobs there are within their level range. They won't be suddenly ganked by L60 mob...

    That's not usually the case in MMORPG PVP though.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,102
    dave6660 said:
    Not until PvE actually uses something resembling semi-realistic AI.

    But by all means,  if standing 20 feet down a hall of "guards" who stand there while you "pull" them one at at time turns you on, go knock yourself out.

    There is hope for the future of game AI.  A bot just recently out laned a DOTA 2 pro, something many people said would never happen.
    https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/12/16138942/dota-2-bot-vs-human-international-2017

    Interesting.   Anything that takes us away from the dull nonsense that are is "Guards" standing in a room while you slowly "pull" then in 1's and 2's to a corner.  What rubbish.


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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,309
    Loke666 said:

    I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.


    I agree but we're talking about a matter of degrees of imbalance. The progression inherent in RPGs will always have some: whether it's levels, gear or access to better skills you can minimize it but you can't remove it altogether without also removing the satisfaction of progressing which is one the biggest draws in RPGs.

    Even in games like ESO where everyone has always been bolstered to max level in PVP long before they also did it for PVE, the difference is in gear and access to skills that unlock over time through use of a particular skill line.

    But that's not what the incessant ESO PVP whining is all about. Even though it's a hybrid class/classless game, nerd rage focuses on those few things that are unique to a class not your own. Nerf "x" is by far the hottest discussion topic there.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,309
    Iselin said:
    maji said:


    PvP in other games: well, that depends.
    When I want to PvP, I play Overwatch.
    Glad you found a game you like.   Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... 
    MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...

    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.

    WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
    Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?

    ...
    That's reaching, lol

    In MMORPG's. mobs of different levels are confined to specific zones. L40 players can stick to appropriate PVE zones, knowing that the mobs there are within their level range. They won't be suddenly ganked by L60 mob...

    That's not usually the case in MMORPG PVP though.
    In the chaotic "open world" garbage superimposed on top of PVE games that many think of whenever PVP is mentioned, yeah mobs are segregated by level but PVP is not.

    The point though is that in RPG games about progression there are dangers that you can't handle while leveling. Players accept that concept in PvE but they have a hard time with it when there's a human on the other side.


    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
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    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited August 2017
    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
    That's not an issue, with PvP, it's not an issue with RPGs, it's an issue with the progression system.

    Tell me. Suppose I were to make a game with heavy character customization and a focus on character development. However the progression system was one where you earn new skills that are not inherently more powerful than the old ones and swap them out as desired. You can also work toward developing your guild / nation in terms of building up territory, structures, NPC armies/labor forces that can killed or be taken by siege and there is gear that can make your character up to three times stronger but it degrades quickly and is lost upon death.

    Same question again, but this time, your character itself can progress. It's just that your base stats that are unloseable can only make you up to twice as strong as any other player.

    In what genre would you classify what I just described? Seems to me, it's quite clearly an RPG in both scenarios. If done on a massive scale it would be an MMORPG. RPGs aren't ruining MMOs or PvPs. People lack of imagination and dogmatic devotion to "the way things have always been done" is.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,309
    Eldurian said:
    Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
    That's not an issue, with PvP, it's not an issue with RPGs, it's an issue with the progression system.

    Tell me. Suppose I were to make a game with heavy character customization and a focus on character development. However the progression system was one where you earn new skills that are not inherently more powerful than the old ones and swap them out as desired. You can also work toward developing your guild / nation in terms of building up territory, structures, NPC armies/labor forces that can killed or be taken by siege and there is gear that can make your character up to three times stronger but it degrades quickly and is lost upon death.

    Same question again, but this time, your character itself can progress. It's just that your base stats that are unloseable can only make you up to twice as strong as any other player.

    In what genre would you classify what I just described? Seems to me, it's quite clearly an RPG in both scenarios. If done on a massive scale it would be an MMORPG. RPGs aren't ruining MMOs or PvPs. People lack of imagination and dogmatic devotion to "the way things have always been done" is.
    I really hope you do build it because I'd love to see how many would enjoy an RPG with very little power progression like you're always preaching. I have my doubts.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Sure thing. I think I can get it off the ground at a level of quality people will really enjoy for about 50 million. Care to spot me the cash?
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,309
    Eldurian said:
    Sure thing. I think I can get it off the ground at a level of quality people will really enjoy for about 50 million. Care to spot me the cash?
    That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Iselin said:
    Loke666 said:

    I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
    I agree but we're talking about a matter of degrees of imbalance. The progression inherent in RPGs will always have some: whether it's levels, gear or access to better skills you can minimize it but you can't remove it altogether without also removing the satisfaction of progressing which is one the biggest draws in RPGs.

    Even in games like ESO where everyone has always been bolstered to max level in PVP long before they also did it for PVE, the difference is in gear and access to skills that unlock over time through use of a particular skill line.

    But that's not what the incessant ESO PVP whining is all about. Even though it's a hybrid class/classless game, nerd rage focuses on those few things that are unique to a class not your own. Nerf "x" is by far the hottest discussion topic there.
    True, but we don't really need a perfectly even playing ground, just something that takes away some of the things that makes PvP less fun.

    I think a successful MMORPG need to be in the middle between traditional PvE MMORPGs and progression less FPS and Mobas. Enough progression to be meaningful (particularly if the game also have PvE) but so little that it wont split up the player into too many tiers (most modern MMOs have 80-130 levels and a tier where people actually can play with eachothers or fight eachother would be a 5 level range or so).

    20 level which each bring at least a new skill and not too many HPs would work on both playstyles. Say you start with 50 HP and get 20 times that many (1000) when you are maxed out, as an example on how the increase in power should be.

    And add a specific max power level you can get from gear (25% is good but anything from 20-50% would probably work).

    A level 20 would then get 20 times as much HP and at least 20 active or passive skills to play with + another 25% buff if she got the best gear avaliable. Sounds much? Compared to Wow it is nothing. And you will be able to fight with at least some chance then with people within 5 levels from you making it effectively around 4 tiers in PvP instead of around 20.

    Bolstering people to max level for PvP purpose work fine in smaller setting like arenastyled PvP but for something that would be more fun on a PvP server that just is impossible.

    We wont get progression and 100% fairness in a MMORPG, we have to pick one or the other and I pick progression. But we can make it less painfull and at least increase the number of interesting fights. In open PvP servers you could actually only PvP flag people 5 levels below and above you as well, with 20 levels that isn't so painfull. With 100 levels it would suck.
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