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Shadow Of War: microtransactions!

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  • CazrielCazriel Member RarePosts: 419
    I'm much more concerned with single player titles having core elements carved out and sold as DLC.   MTs to shortcut a grind is going to happen.  It's silly, because why are you playing?  But everyone has their reasons.

    Not so sanguine about major civilizations being cut out of Civ and sold separately.  Not so keen on TW: Warhammer races being sold separately or for TW: War II, which is little more than an expansion, being sold for $60, needing a mod to play the first one's races and with more DLCs to come. 

    This is the kind of developer/publisher hubris that chaps gamers' cheeks and turns them hostile.

    And the more gamers get hostile towards a dev/pub, the less they buy and the more dev/pub do this kind of transparent manipulation to make money.   Once a developer or a publisher loses their integrity in the gaming community's view, it is almost impossible for them to recover.     
    Asm0deus
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,139
    Torval said:
    On top of that in order to enjoy the game he had to "meta" his play to work around some designs that sound rather clunky.


    I wonder if it's that or if he just didn't like those segments. They sounded good to me but I haven't actually tried the game yet so maybe they aren't great.

    The thing is I like attacking and defending fortresses. Of course he found out attacking was better than defending for a variety of reasons. They sound to me like issues in design if that's the case.

    Is there a competitive aspect of this game? Because if there is then yes I get that it might be an issue.
    [Deleted User]
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    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


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  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 5,072
    edited October 2017
    Sovrath said:
    Torval said:
    On top of that in order to enjoy the game he had to "meta" his play to work around some designs that sound rather clunky.


    I wonder if it's that or if he just didn't like those segments. They sounded good to me but I haven't actually tried the game yet so maybe they aren't great.

    The thing is I like attacking and defending fortresses. Of course he found out attacking was better than defending for a variety of reasons. They sound to me like issues in design if that's the case.

    Is there a competitive aspect of this game? Because if there is then yes I get that it might be an issue.
    As far as the competetive aspect only the ranked mp castle defense / attack but I don't think you see the other player just the defense or offense he set up.
    [Deleted User]
  • TaishiFoxTaishiFox Member RarePosts: 999
    Asheram said:
    TaishiFox said:
    OMG like this hasn't been before in other buy to play games? get over it! to me this is just like having a micro DLC, quit bloody whining about this stuff, its so toxic in this community.
    So this game is now categorized with GW2 and ESO now both of which are buy to play games got it.
    I think I am going use my money for the buy to play game Wolfenstein 2 in 2 weeks instead.

    If you BUY a game to play it its still BUY to play... (man trying not to call people bad things and avoid admins slapping me when people make comments like this is hard >_> )  Also, thats your choice, who really cares? its not the subject here.
    TheScavengerYashaX

    imageimage
    image

  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 5,072
    LoL whatever. If you think your dropping in with your exasperated rebuke is going to stop people from expressing their opinions YOU don't like is going to stop them from doing so I think you are mistaken.
    Maybe don't click on threads with touchy subject if it bothers you that much.
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    Iselin said:
    The advantage of an open ended system (where there is no limit to how much you can spend) is that it allows some people to pay a whole lot...which covers the cost of those that dont.

    Good post in general but this bit is indicative of the fallacy that is at the root of this seemingly crazy consumer behavior: it's the belief that there is a legitimate relationship between price and cost.

    Microtransactions in B2P games have nothing to do with "covering cost." You can sort of make that argument for F2P games but not for the games that have an entry fee AND microtransactions on top. The big spenders are not "covering the cost" of anyone who isn't. It's just extra profit gravy unless the company is stupid enough to not cover its real cost with the universal entry fee.


    Microctransactions don't distribute ( I should have used this word rather than cover) cost... open ended payment options do. Some buy a little (or none), some buy a lot, which allows for a lower minimum buy in due to the distribution.
  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 515
    edited October 2017
    TaishiFox said:
    Iselin said:
    TaishiFox said:
    pantaro said:
    TaishiFox said:
    Asheram said:
    LoL whatever. If you think your dropping in with your exasperated rebuke is going to stop people from expressing their opinions YOU don't like is going to stop them from doing so I think you are mistaken.
    Maybe don't click on threads with touchy subject if it bothers you that much.
    Ya know what? I don't care what the admins say, you're pathetic and immature and above all an idiot.  The subject itself doesn't bother me its the constant whiners who act like spoiled children who whine about it that does.
    I'd rather be called a whiner than be a fool with money or a sucker! just saying!
    Point taken but you don't need to be a fool and spend extra money to play or enjoy the game. This feature was intended for those who clearly have more money than sense and/or maybe not enough patience or time on their hands, probably cus they're too busy working, or hell just someone who gets a buzz out of making their gaming life that much simpler for a few bucks, hell ya heard of old cheat cartridges right? You still had to pay for those! same thing if you ask me!
    Honestly though, I don't see why people keep whining about it like its really braking their gameplay and spoiling it for them when really, fact is, its not, they're just dilluded from the fact that it is in their own damn mind.
    Funny thing is the only whining I'm seeing is you whining about whiners.

    People have opinions about these things. Why does that trigger you?
    You call it an "opinion" but an opinion isn't someone who copies whatever everyone else is doing and whining about pointless crap.  I actually am making a point here, only narrow minded people would be ignorant to that, or does it only count if I was only whining about pointless crap about microtransactions? I've already mentioned why that triggers me, fact is its pointless, annoying and it's tiresome, we've got enough of this going on and its bad for the community, it needs to stop.
    you truly believe that microtransactions and loot boxes in a single player game is pointless crap....WOW! you aint even worth my time son,enjoy your nickel and dime games homie!
    YashaX
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    edited October 2017
    The problem comes if they reduce drops in the game to encourage people to spend money.  Or put a show stopper in the game that can only be passed by purchasing an item in the cash shop.  

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.  Is it evil to try and milk every penny out of your customers?  Not to the people doing the milking...

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    TaishiFox said:
    Iselin said:
    TaishiFox said:
    pantaro said:
    TaishiFox said:
    Asheram said:
    LoL whatever. If you think your dropping in with your exasperated rebuke is going to stop people from expressing their opinions YOU don't like is going to stop them from doing so I think you are mistaken.
    Maybe don't click on threads with touchy subject if it bothers you that much.
    Ya know what? I don't care what the admins say, you're pathetic and immature and above all an idiot.  The subject itself doesn't bother me its the constant whiners who act like spoiled children who whine about it that does.
    I'd rather be called a whiner than be a fool with money or a sucker! just saying!
    Point taken but you don't need to be a fool and spend extra money to play or enjoy the game. This feature was intended for those who clearly have more money than sense and/or maybe not enough patience or time on their hands, probably cus they're too busy working, or hell just someone who gets a buzz out of making their gaming life that much simpler for a few bucks, hell ya heard of old cheat cartridges right? You still had to pay for those! same thing if you ask me!
    Honestly though, I don't see why people keep whining about it like its really braking their gameplay and spoiling it for them when really, fact is, its not, they're just dilluded from the fact that it is in their own damn mind.
    Funny thing is the only whining I'm seeing is you whining about whiners.

    People have opinions about these things. Why does that trigger you?
    You call it an "opinion" but an opinion isn't someone who copies whatever everyone else is doing and whining about pointless crap.  I actually am making a point here, only narrow minded people would be ignorant to that, or does it only count if I was only whining about pointless crap about microtransactions? I've already mentioned why that triggers me, fact is its pointless, annoying and it's tiresome, we've got enough of this going on and its bad for the community, it needs to stop.
    The thing that is actually "bad for the community" is taking whatever is shoved at you and trying to silence anyone who says "hey, wait a minute here, this is F2P crap in a game that isn't F2P."

    People like you are enablers for anything a gaming company does because you just want a happy little wonderland of rainbows and ponies.

    The people who point out the fucked-up things they do and call them on it are the ones who are actually good for the community.
    TaishiFoxYashaXGdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • TaishiFoxTaishiFox Member RarePosts: 999
    edited October 2017
    Iselin said:
    The thing that is actually "bad for the community" is taking whatever is shoved at you and trying to silence anyone who says "hey, wait a minute here, this is F2P crap in a game that isn't F2P."

    People like you are enablers for anything a gaming company does because you just want a happy little wonderland of rainbows and ponies.

    The people who point out the fucked-up things they do and call them on it are the ones who are actually good for the community.
    yeah right, keep telling yourself that! I'd love to know what makes you or anyone else so damn special that game companies need to give some kind of exception to and lose money on cus fact is they're not going to stop what they're doing just cus of a bunch of spoiled children can't afford the extra content that they don't even need to play their damn game in the first place who just want to whine about it cus they seem to think making themselves heard gets them what they want.  Its really hillarious that you tell me that I'm wrong for making a statement and how I can't make any difference by doing so and how I'm no better etc. Open ya god damn eyes and look at what you're doing before you start critercising others otherwise it just appears pretty hypocrtical.

    The problem comes if they reduce drops in the game to encourage people to spend money.  Or put a show stopper in the game that can only be passed by purchasing an item in the cash shop.  

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.  Is it evil to try and milk every penny out of your customers?  Not to the people doing the milking...
    This I can actually agree on, forcing it down people's throats to pay up is something I can't stand by.
    IselinExcessionTheScavenger

    imageimage
    image

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    TaishiFox said:
    Iselin said:
    TaishiFox said:
    Iselin said:
    TaishiFox said:
    pantaro said:
    TaishiFox said:
    Asheram said:
    LoL whatever. If you think your dropping in with your exasperated rebuke is going to stop people from expressing their opinions YOU don't like is going to stop them from doing so I think you are mistaken.
    Maybe don't click on threads with touchy subject if it bothers you that much.
    Ya know what? I don't care what the admins say, you're pathetic and immature and above all an idiot.  The subject itself doesn't bother me its the constant whiners who act like spoiled children who whine about it that does.
    I'd rather be called a whiner than be a fool with money or a sucker! just saying!
    Point taken but you don't need to be a fool and spend extra money to play or enjoy the game. This feature was intended for those who clearly have more money than sense and/or maybe not enough patience or time on their hands, probably cus they're too busy working, or hell just someone who gets a buzz out of making their gaming life that much simpler for a few bucks, hell ya heard of old cheat cartridges right? You still had to pay for those! same thing if you ask me!
    Honestly though, I don't see why people keep whining about it like its really braking their gameplay and spoiling it for them when really, fact is, its not, they're just dilluded from the fact that it is in their own damn mind.
    Funny thing is the only whining I'm seeing is you whining about whiners.

    People have opinions about these things. Why does that trigger you?
    You call it an "opinion" but an opinion isn't someone who copies whatever everyone else is doing and whining about pointless crap.  I actually am making a point here, only narrow minded people would be ignorant to that, or does it only count if I was only whining about pointless crap about microtransactions? I've already mentioned why that triggers me, fact is its pointless, annoying and it's tiresome, we've got enough of this going on and its bad for the community, it needs to stop.
    The thing that is actually "bad for the community" is taking whatever is shoved at you and trying to silence anyone who says "hey, wait a minute here, this is F2P crap in a game that isn't F2P."

    People like you are enablers for anything a gaming company does because you just want a happy little wonderland of rainbows and ponies.

    The people who point out the fucked-up things they do and call them on it are the ones who are actually good for the community.
    yeah right, keep telling yourself that! I'd love to know what makes you or anyone else so damn special that game companies need to give some kind of exception to and lose money on cus fact is they're not going to stop what they're doing just cus of a bunch of spoiled children can't afford the extra content that they don't even need to play their damn game in the first place who just want to whine about it cus they seem to think making themselves heard gets them what they want.  Its really hillarious that you tell me that I'm wrong for making a statement and how I can't make any difference by doing so and how I'm no better etc. Open ya god damn eyes and look at what you're doing before you start critercising others otherwise it just appears pretty hypocrtical.
    I stopped reading at "lose money" lol. Good one, bud.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • TaishiFoxTaishiFox Member RarePosts: 999
    edited October 2017
    Iselin said:
    I stopped reading at "lose money" lol. Good one, bud.
    If they took away the "cash shop" or whatever method they are using for this ploy then of course they lose money and they're not going to just change that for a bunch of whiners. And of course you didn't read on cus ya too damn ignorant.
    IselinExcessionTheScavengerYashaXGdemami

    imageimage
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  • VyntVynt Member UncommonPosts: 757
    I usually don't like microtransactions, but if it ends up not being necessary or even noticeable, I don't really care, especially for a single player game.

    I remember playing deus ex: mankind divided and found out there were microtransactions after I beat the game. I had no idea they even existed while playing lol. If SoW does the same thing, I don't have a problem with people throwing money at the game that in no way affects my play.

    As mentioned earlier, when they add DLC that should have been part of the core game, especially if it is day 1 dlc, that really pisses me off.
  • XxxusernametakenxxxXxxusernametakenxxx Member UncommonPosts: 127
    edited October 2017
    Year after year video game sales increase.  That means all these crying about MT, Dlc or whatever crying topic is cool are the minority. 

    The little babies who find something to cry about anytime a new games comes out are more of a cancer to video games than MT could ever be.  The whiners are just desperate for approval and need upvotes to make them feel better. 

     It's clear MT, Dlc and any other fake crying topics they bring up for any new game aren't going away.  So if you can't handle that fact find a new hobby it's that simple.  You may have been told by your elementary teachers or parents or read to many SJW training manuals but no you won't be changing anything here. 
    Post edited by Xxxusernametakenxxx on
    YashaXGdemami
  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    TaishiFox said:
    Iselin said:
    I stopped reading at "lose money" lol. Good one, bud.
    If they took away the "cash shop" or whatever method they are using for this ploy then of course they lose money and they're not going to just change that for a bunch of whiners. And of course you didn't read on cus ya too damn ignorant.
    Yeah they would, but it's wouldn't be loss for them, which i think he was trying to say. It isn't vital part for them to make a profit.

    The problem isn't they're making money, it's the method they're using that isn't appealing. Gambling with irl cash in a video game is wrong whatever way you look at.

    Also not sure why it makes people spoilt children asking for them to keep the game as it was in the previous one and it's not extra content, it's content they took out to sell to those who can't be bothered to play the game, i know you can earn it in game, but we know the in-game content suffers for the sake of it.

    It was a unneeded change, if anything imho, this will effect their profits in a negative way worse so than if they didn't have the loot boxes




    IselinTheScavengerCoatedlaseritGdemami
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited October 2017
    The future of gaming. It wouldn't surprise me if they started locking "New Game+" modes behind paywalls as well too (sorry if I just gave them the idea to do so).
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I always get a good chuckle when I see threads like this. I have been in the gaming industry for a long time, and it amazes me that people (not individuals, the masses) dont learn over time.
    yup.

    and I keep thinking 'hmm none of the games I play have loot boxes or micro-transactions...oh yeah because I play indie titles that everyone here call garbage'

    oh the ironicalness of it all 

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Albatroes said:

    Devil's advocate for a moment though. Maybe the current market does feel too entitled though in some regard. One thing older gamers remember about a lot of games from the late 90s and early 2000s is how big the gaming worlds used to be even if they weren't all that graphically great looking. Prime examples would be the final fantasy titles (or almost anything SE made rpg wise in that regard), all the hidden things in games like duke nukem etc. One thing people are kind of forgetting or maybe did not notice is that better graphics come at a price, which is usually smaller environments. Can easily compare the gaming depth of Saint's Row 2 to Saint's Row 3 in terms of environmental depth. But most players want both, which gets expensive, thus leading to cuts somewhere or added expenses in other forms. On top of that, game development hasn't exactly became cheaper over the years either, with designer salaries going up and such. Thus may lead to so many things we see being sold on the side vs being usually free, like skins, bonus difficulties (looking at you Zelda), and so on.


    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,771
    edited October 2017
    Talonsin said:
    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    NEVER! No amount can fill such hollow pit! Add microtransactions to singleplayer games! Add loot boxes! Make them pay for RNG! MAKE THEM PAY!!! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH \o/

    Devs need to make money, but this is just pushing profit to the limit, why make billions when you can make... trillions? :)
    YashaXPhry
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,139
    Talonsin said:



    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    fine, I'll just, um, yeah ... I'll just leave this here ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/052303.asp

    and this ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/020703.asp
    Scorchien[Deleted User]
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Sovrath said:
    Talonsin said:



    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    fine, I'll just, um, yeah ... I'll just leave this here ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/052303.asp

    and this ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/020703.asp
    People need to learn and educate thenselves on this subject ..So tried of that type of post ..

      ATVI and EA are both publicly owned .. you would think that would be enough for people to understand but .........here we are again
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,139
    Scorchien said:
    Sovrath said:
    Talonsin said:



    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    fine, I'll just, um, yeah ... I'll just leave this here ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/052303.asp

    and this ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/020703.asp
    People need to learn and educate thenselves on this subject ..So tried of that type of post ..

      ATVI and EA are both publicly owned .. you would think that would be enough for people to understand but .........here we are again
    And the thing is, it's "all of us". All of us have some sort of retirement account at the very least. So it should be a no brainer.

    Of course "most of us" (though perhaps some) aren't making millions every year. But we at least want to make the most of our investments so we can retire well. And I know full well that some of us on this forum have invested in game companies.

    Yeah, I get that people are pissed and I certainly don't want games carved up and sold to me piecemeal. But if I'm going to buy a game from a large company then at least I know what I'm dealing with.

    Now I'm going to Play Shadow of Was as I'm having a blast. Oh sure, the game tells me that since I haven't allowed data usage I can't take part in any "online game modes" or the "market".

    And that's just fine with me.
    Scorchien
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Scorchien said:
    Sovrath said:
    Talonsin said:



    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    fine, I'll just, um, yeah ... I'll just leave this here ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/052303.asp

    and this ...

    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/020703.asp
    People need to learn and educate thenselves on this subject ..So tried of that type of post ..

      ATVI and EA are both publicly owned .. you would think that would be enough for people to understand but .........here we are again
    Should public companies then get a pass and never have their ethics or morality questioned just because they're public?

    It sounds like you and Sorvath are trying to say that their public nature exempts them from being thought of as greedy... or that greed doesn't exists in a public company context. Is that about the size of it?
    MadFrenchieNildenYashaXGdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    Talonsin said:
    Albatroes said:

    Devil's advocate for a moment though. Maybe the current market does feel too entitled though in some regard. One thing older gamers remember about a lot of games from the late 90s and early 2000s is how big the gaming worlds used to be even if they weren't all that graphically great looking. Prime examples would be the final fantasy titles (or almost anything SE made rpg wise in that regard), all the hidden things in games like duke nukem etc. One thing people are kind of forgetting or maybe did not notice is that better graphics come at a price, which is usually smaller environments. Can easily compare the gaming depth of Saint's Row 2 to Saint's Row 3 in terms of environmental depth. But most players want both, which gets expensive, thus leading to cuts somewhere or added expenses in other forms. On top of that, game development hasn't exactly became cheaper over the years either, with designer salaries going up and such. Thus may lead to so many things we see being sold on the side vs being usually free, like skins, bonus difficulties (looking at you Zelda), and so on.


    I understand game developers are working and need to make money but at what point are the drivers for the company (the investors and CEO) getting greedy?

    Activision - NET Revenue last year over 3 billion
    EA - NET revenue last year of almost a billion

    When will it ever be enough? 
    The interesting thing about that is most of the time developers dont decide anything in regards to micro-transactions. A perfect case is with the last Deus Ex. Those dodgy one time use micro-transactions were decided by SE last minute. So really it depends on the publisher a lot of the time. Which is also probably why you see so many indie devs popping up all over the place. Thus leaving us with a lesser of 2 evils scenerio. Publishers have their place because they ensure projects either meet deadlines or are cut before the future cost doesn't meet "focus testing figures." Indie teams will have a higher desire to construct a product that the current market actually wants but often times fails to produce because of money mismanagement/miss placed priorities. I really dont know which camp I'm heavily residing with so I guess it will be a case by case thing for me in the end and to everyone else as well.
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