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Making Crafting Interesting

laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,065
It's that time of year again. I need advice from the MMORPG community!

I have been working on a multiplayer crafting game. The game should be mainly focused on crafting and selling items. After some previous suggestions, I decided to make items have a variety of stats. I am quite happy with that, as it gives the trading game depth, while still keeping it approachable to new players. For example, certain ores may be more heat resistant than others, passing this property onto a sword that used the ores in crafting. The market then simulates demand for certain attributes, affecting the prices based on stats used. Beginner crafters can still make profits regardless of stats, but expert crafters can choose to play the stat game to make their work sell for more.

While the broader meta-game is quite fun, the actual crafting process is boring. I am realising a game isn't fun if the very core moment-to-moment short term gameplay isn't fun.

Do you have any ideas on how to make the crafting process itself more engaging?

How would you feel about some sort of a mini-game in crafting? I can think of two approaches to this. Either a skill-based task, where you need to press the right buttons at the right time. Perhaps your character swings a hammer and you need to press a button at the perfect time to hit the iron ingot accurately. Or a puzzle-based task, where you need to figure out some sort of a crafting puzzle as part of the process. Perhaps you need to find the right ratio of ingredients that randomly changes each time you craft.
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Comments

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    One approach is to have the player make non-obvious choices about what they want to craft.  If the best strategy is to make 100 of item X, that's likely to get boring regardless of what item X is and how you craft it.

    Suppose instead that there is an enormous number of rare materials for crafting.  Each material is individually rare and impractical to farm.  But getting a rare crafting material in the normal course of playing the game is pretty common, and players have plenty of bag space such that a few hours of adventuring leaves them with one or two each of several dozen rare materials.  Different rare materials give different stats to their crafted item, some of which are obviously stupid in a sword, others obviously stupid in a shield, and so forth.  Now the optimal crafting strategy is to make a wide variety of different items and ponder which materials should go into which items.

    If you want the crafting process to be interesting in itself, you need some sort of skill of the player based puzzle that isn't a simple pass/fail but offers a wide variety of outcomes.  Thus, newbies can see their skills improve as they learn the puzzle and start of making something that isn't complete garbage.  Meanwhile, experts still have to pay attention and do their best rather than it becoming a mind-numbing process of doing just well enough to pass.

    If goods can become arbitrarily high quality, make sure that it's not something that everyone needs top quality of or else you end up forcing everyone to buy from one or a few of the most skilled crafters in the game.  You don't want a situation where all warriors must buy their sword from player X or forever be inferior.  But it's okay if one player tends to make higher quality consumables that are quickly burned through and destroyed than another player.  If top quality items give something like faster teleport cooldowns or faster out of combat mounts that are nice to have but don't unbalance combat or whatever your main mechanic is, that's not the same sort of problem.

    Another possibility is that you craft commodity items, but better player performance means you get more output.  For example, if you're crafting arrows, perhaps a mediocre crafter gets 50 arrows out of an average batch, while an expert often makes over 100 out of the same materials.

    You could also take the Puzzle Pirates approach to crafting where your crafting level is based on how well you've done at a given crafting puzzle in the past.  But once you've done the puzzle enough to demonstrate that you're good at it, you only need to play once per week to demonstrate that you're still good at it and can use it to craft many items that week.
    laxieGdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    One other thing I'd advise if you want an interesting crafting process is not to have only one crafting process.  Some games have tried to have a crafting puzzle, but made it so that everything you could possibly craft was just a different skin on the same puzzle.  That feels incredibly grindy very quickly.  If there are dozens of substantially different crafting puzzles such that it's common for player A to be better than player B at one puzzle and worse at another, that gives a lot more variety.
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,065
    Some great ideas, thanks a lot. :smile:
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    There are two theories in this subject one I personally think is bonified ridiculous and the other to me seems more interesting and yes that is just my opinion man..

    1. recipes are interesting. what components go into what and in what order, what is a pre-prerequisite build as a component to a more advanced item. where the materials are and how to get them.

    2. the actual method of how one hammers a nail or stirs a pot.

    say cooking for example, I think most cooks are less interested in how to stir something and more interested in what goes into the pot.

    having said that, watching progress bars is not interesting either but that is a method of crafting that is already fallen out of favor in most crafting focused games but clearly not all.

    thus I am not interested in mini-games of stiring pots. having said that taking LIF for example I do find making sure the forge is hot enough to be somewhat interesting but as nearly a 100% crafter myself I find it less interesting then complex component tree.

    many people who think crafting needs improvement have not played games that are (for the lack of a better word) hyper focused on crafting.

    case in point, I actually quit EQ2 as mostly a crafter and went to Darkfall (back in the day) instead because I found the crafting more interesting. I found the ability to have an entire guild commited to building a boat more intresting then tier 2 gloves
    laxie

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • BoneserinoBoneserino Member UncommonPosts: 1,764
    I think I am pretty much in the same camp as SEANMCAD, when it comes to crafting.

    Playing a keyboard game might be fun the first time, but after a while it would likely become tedious, and offer little in long term fun.

    For me the key to having fun with crafting is this:

    1) The items you craft have to be useful in the game.   No one wants to waste time making stuff that nobody wants or needs. It seems obvious but it is still hard to accomplish in a game.  This is what did in Voyage Century for me. They had perfectly good crafting and then ruined it with a patch that gave overpowered noob gear that rendered anything crafted useless.   

    2)  Gathering mats is half the fun.  Or at least it should be.  Many might disagree with me here, but crafting should be like a scavenger hunt.  When you craft a highly useful item you should be able to look at it and feel good about what you had to go through to create it.   Just saying chop 50 trees and mine 150 ores doesn't cut it.  Good crafting items need to be harder and rarer to access.   Some type of battle or search that may even require assistance should be required.

    3)  Crafting should take time.  Again people might disagree here.  But if all you to do is buy some mats, toss em in the crafter, press a button and Voila!, then you really have no challenge.  Something small or frequently used should be take relatively small amounts of time.  But to craft something truly special should take a week or more.  If it doesn't then people can simply crank rare or powerful stuff out and that takes the uniqueness and the satisfaction out of creating it.

    4) Recipes, like Sean said, are key, because crafting is like cooking.  It is the ingredients and the methods to make the best item possible or a good item better, that provides the fun.  A little complexity and choice goes a long way to adding fun here, as long as you don't overcomplicate to the point of absurdity.  Looking at you REPOPULATION.   Make it like a good quest should be where you have multiple options to complete an objective and you have to decide what is best.

    These are my general guidelines as to what makes crafting interesting and fun for everyone, including the people who don't like to craft.  Crafting should be all about supply and demand.  The crafter needs people who need their stuff.  And people who need their stuff, need crafters and should be willing to help them to get the things they want.  

    And the final key to good crafting in a game:

    5)  All the weapons, armor, potions, and whatever should be crafted.  No loot drops whatsoever.  This is the hardest for people to take, but if all you need to do is kill some badass monster to get the most powerful sword or armor in the game, then you have completely negated the entire crafting process.  A person should need the best crafted item in order to kill the badass monster, otherwise where is the demand and what is the purpose of crafting in a game?

    Probably not the answer you were looking for, but as far as the process itself,  a clean interface and intuitive process is really what you want.  I don't think adding a "skill" factor in the way of dexterity or puzzle solving or things of that nature is really necessary.  I think having to do crafting in a specific area or with specific tools being required is a good idea.   Perhaps being able to build your workshop and upgrade it would be interesting. 

    My final thought is that the best MMO is one that integrates crafting into all levels of gameplay.  I would even place crafting above combat in importance to an MMO.  Not important in terms of fun, but important in terms of pulling together all elements of what makes an MMO fun, for the majority of players.  

    So I wish you the best of luck with your project.
    laxie

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736


    For me, the holy grail of crafting systems is Wurm Online's crafting system, done with materials being as important as they are in Mortal Online, in the style of the above video.
    laxie
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,353
    I like crafting which take time to complete.  For example a simple axe takes 1 hour to make, while a golden axe can take a week.  
    Mendel
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,586
    I'm in a very different camp to Sean. 

    Crafting in real life is indeed based on two things - the recipe, then the process itself. 

    Whilst Sean says the process itself is boring and nobody wants to gamify stiring a pot, I think that is where he utterly wrong (I've had this argument with him before and he won't budge). 

    The recipe is all about knowledge. What goes into a recipe is indeed interesting and it can be exciting to unlock a new recipe, or figure out which special ingredients will make a sword hit harder. But, this is pure knowledge - there is no player skill involved. The first people figuring out the system might need to use some skill deducing which ingredients have which effects, but for the majority of people they will just make what is obvious and then lookup recipes if they want to craft something special. 


    The process is where the skill lies. For some reason, Sean can't understand this point of view but that's fine, we're all entitled to our own views. Think of it like frying a steak - two people can have identical steaks, the same amount of oil and seasoning and the same frying pans, but chances are the steaks will come out differently depending on the skill level of the user. 

    So, whilst in real life, the process itself might be boring (hammering a nail, painting a wall, cooking a steak etc), it is the process that shows off the persons skill. Your challenge as a developer is to turn that boring process into some sort of gameplay that is engaging and allows player skill to show.

    Sadly, I don't have any examples for you as I've never played a game with interesting crafting - the crafting part has always been boring so I've only ever engaged with it in order to get the end result: the crafted items. 


    I can only provide examples from combat systems that I have found interesting and allowed player skill to shine. 

    1) Best Case Scenario

    The crafting process should have a predictable best case scenario. You start crafting, press the right buttons at the right time and you produce the best possible item. This is again knowledge-based and wouldn't require much to figure out. This is the equivalent of learning a combat rotation. 

    2) Input Variables

    Just like in combat, you don't enter each situation in the same state. Maybe you don't have a tank. Maybe your DPS sucks. Maybe you're chain pulling and you're all at half health. The starting point of combat can have a big effect on the combat process so you should aim for something similar in crafting. This might mean adjusting the process based on the ingredients. It may mean requiring the player to setup their crafting environment differently (e.g. overheating the forge in order to be able to smelt adamantium?). What this does is prevent a single process being viable for all crafting - crafters will have to adapt to each item they are crafting (still mostly knowledge based, but starting to allow player skill to show). 

    3) Scripted Events

    Lots of combat has scripted events. Hit 50% HP and boss uses ability etc. You can get some of these into your crafting process, e.g. when forging a sword, if sword temperature drops below 150c whilst hammering then each subsequent hammerblow weakens it. I'm not much of a fan of this type of thing as again, not really showing player skill, more player knowledge, but it is adding more complexity which means less people will be able to learn / remember it all. 

    4) RNG / Meaningful Choices

    I'll probably get a lot of hate for this, but add some RNG to crafting. What is key is that the player has the ability to react to the RNG. For example, in combat enemies will often score a crit hit on you. This forces a choice on the player: continue as normal, try to heal, or use defensive skills. The RNG has forced the player to react and the way that they react is how they show off their skill. 

    I'm not really too sure how you get this into your system. Something like when shaping a blade you may be required to beat it at the base, middle and end for 100 power, but when you hit the end you "crit" beat it, causing the end to be too thin and the middle too fat. The player then has the choice to continue (do nothing - lowered durability), beat the middle (hoping to even it out again), return to the forge (increasing time taken to craft) or scrap it. Thats not a very good example as it doesn't really show off player skill, but hopefully you can see what I'm aiming for: RNG -> forced choice -> choice has meaningful impact

    5) Twitch Skill

    Whilst I don't enjoy action combat, a lot of people do. Perhaps you could incorporate some sort of manual aiming / movement into your crafting? E.g. manually aiming the hammer / nail in order to get the best angle and power (thereby increasing strength / dura?), or manually stirring a pot (better stirring = better mixing of ingredients = more potent?). 
    laxieGdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    I'm in a very different camp to Sean. 

    Crafting in real life is indeed based on two things - the recipe, then the process itself. 

    lets focus on my specific example:

    1. Is the cook interested in how to stir the pot or he is more interested in the recipes.
    2. is the home builder more interested in how to hammer or is he more interested materials, cost, design etc.
    3. Is the drug dealer more fascinated by how to get the powder from his spoon to the scale or he is more interested in the weight.

    anything post that is not related directly to my examples I will not read. Far to often responses to me get waay off track and miss the point

    WITH THAT SAID: Take a look at House Flippers and My Summer Car.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,815
    edited July 2017
    One point is to tie it to the crafter. Another is that besides stats the gear made by a good smith should be good looking.

    Make customization options locked by achievements or crafting quests/jobs. So people who put effort on his job can make things with more interesting look. Instead of grinding a boss for that glamour you want people should get the parts and with those parts (like Black Demon Horn) an expert smith could use it to make a "unique" looking gear.

    Then add things like custom names and descriptions.

    When someone will wear it, or you'll buy it, you'll know who did it and how good the guys is by the look of the piece.

    Some may not liking - and I admit there is a point on elitism in refusing to let anyone do anything, but I think most crafting in games is overlooked because the players don't feel they are special by doing it.

    Edit: And there is nothing more important to a smith than be recognized by name because of his work.
    laxie
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; EvE Online

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • LerxstLerxst Member UncommonPosts: 646
    I've come to discover that a lot of the games I've enjoyed most lately, single or multiplayer games, have been the ones that allow full freedom of the building process. Not plopping down prefabs, but actually creating walls, floors, etc.

    If games like that can exist, there's no reason a smaller version of them can't exist in a larger MMO world.

    Games like Planet Explorers have what an MMO needs, for its crafting - the ability to make each, individual piece of equipment look substantially different, and having that look affect the stats. You're not just looking at a progress bar while you make 1,000 knives. Instead, you're adding shapes, re-positioning blocks and creating the recipe used to make the item.

    Add some skill points to that system and you can start increasing the types of weapons, armors and materials players can use.





    laxie
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    SEANMCAD said:
    There are two theories in this subject one I personally think is bonified ridiculous and the other to me seems more interesting and yes that is just my opinion man..

    1. recipes are interesting. what components go into what and in what order, what is a pre-prerequisite build as a component to a more advanced item. where the materials are and how to get them.

    2. the actual method of how one hammers a nail or stirs a pot.

    say cooking for example, I think most cooks are less interested in how to stir something and more interested in what goes into the pot.

    having said that, watching progress bars is not interesting either but that is a method of crafting that is already fallen out of favor in most crafting focused games but clearly not all.

    thus I am not interested in mini-games of stiring pots. having said that taking LIF for example I do find making sure the forge is hot enough to be somewhat interesting but as nearly a 100% crafter myself I find it less interesting then complex component tree.

    many people who think crafting needs improvement have not played games that are (for the lack of a better word) hyper focused on crafting.

    case in point, I actually quit EQ2 as mostly a crafter and went to Darkfall (back in the day) instead because I found the crafting more interesting. I found the ability to have an entire guild commited to building a boat more intresting then tier 2 gloves
    If you're relying on recipes as the way to make crafting interesting, then that just moves the question to one of where to the recipes come from.  That's not to say that your answer is wrong, but only that you're not done yet until you say how to make acquiring recipes interesting.

    If it's get one recipe and then use it to make 100 of item X, that's going to get boring awfully quick.  If recipes can be arbitrary combinations of things that give different stats, then you're closer to what I proposed in my first post above.  If you do a Tree of Savior like system where a recipe can only be used to craft an item once, then crafting really just becomes an alternate way of dropping loot from combat, not really a major activity in itself.
    laxie
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304
    SEANMCAD said:
    I'm in a very different camp to Sean. 

    Crafting in real life is indeed based on two things - the recipe, then the process itself. 

    lets focus on my specific example:

    1. Is the cook interested in how to stir the pot or he is more interested in the recipes.
    2. is the home builder more interested in how to hammer or is he more interested materials, cost, design etc.
    3. Is the drug dealer more fascinated by how to get the powder from his spoon to the scale or he is more interested in the weight.

    anything post that is not related directly to my examples I will not read. Far to often responses to me get waay off track and miss the point

    WITH THAT SAID: Take a look at House Flippers and My Summer Car.
    You can have all the best materials available, but if you do not know how to properly put them together, the quality of materials is moot as you will destroy them in the process. Coming from a guy that does a lot of work with his hands, both to make a living, and as a hobby.

    So both are equally important.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    Eldurian said:


    For me, the holy grail of crafting systems is Wurm Online's crafting system, done with materials being as important as they are in Mortal Online, in the style of the above video.
    I picture 50 people all hovering around that equipment as they all proceed to craft essentially the same thing.  

    But I do agree, it is more true to the real aspect of the craft.  Did the game make the process of gathering materials just as deep?  Such as mining and the like.  I laugh how minerals are usually mined at rocks out in the real world when in most cases they are found deep within a mine... something which has to be built first I might add.
    laxieNyctelios
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    Quizzical said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    There are two theories in this subject one I personally think is bonified ridiculous and the other to me seems more interesting and yes that is just my opinion man..

    1. recipes are interesting. what components go into what and in what order, what is a pre-prerequisite build as a component to a more advanced item. where the materials are and how to get them.

    2. the actual method of how one hammers a nail or stirs a pot.

    say cooking for example, I think most cooks are less interested in how to stir something and more interested in what goes into the pot.

    having said that, watching progress bars is not interesting either but that is a method of crafting that is already fallen out of favor in most crafting focused games but clearly not all.

    thus I am not interested in mini-games of stiring pots. having said that taking LIF for example I do find making sure the forge is hot enough to be somewhat interesting but as nearly a 100% crafter myself I find it less interesting then complex component tree.

    many people who think crafting needs improvement have not played games that are (for the lack of a better word) hyper focused on crafting.

    case in point, I actually quit EQ2 as mostly a crafter and went to Darkfall (back in the day) instead because I found the crafting more interesting. I found the ability to have an entire guild commited to building a boat more intresting then tier 2 gloves
    If you're relying on recipes as the way to make crafting interesting, then that just moves the question to one of where to the recipes come from.  That's not to say that your answer is wrong, but only that you're not done yet until you say how to make acquiring recipes interesting.

    If it's get one recipe and then use it to make 100 of item X, that's going to get boring awfully quick.  If recipes can be arbitrary combinations of things that give different stats, then you're closer to what I proposed in my first post above.  If you do a Tree of Savior like system where a recipe can only be used to craft an item once, then crafting really just becomes an alternate way of dropping loot from combat, not really a major activity in itself.
    the problem is nearly 100000% of the people who do not understand what I am saying very simply and concretely just have not played games that are not heavy on crafting so they basically have no fucking clue.

    In the games I play 'one recipe and then use it to make 100 of items X' is NOT THE STORY!!!!!!!
    if you have to make 100 items its because the NAVY SHIP you are building requires 100 wood, or the house you are building requires 100 stone. Or because the 100 bricks required to build an oven to cook meals in, requires 100 clay and 100 sand in order to make.

    you NEVER make 100 items just to make 100 items, it almost always leads to a 1 count or something you are going to need to stay alive

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,065
    I feel like crafting is inherently disadvantaged to combat as it is a stationary experience. All of the production is generally done within one spot, or if the game is creative, a couple of spots in the same room.

    If MMO combat happened in one room, it would probably be incredibly boring. I think the fact that combat often happens across the whole zone (or a dungeon) helps a lot with making a relatively simple system feel fresh.

    Then again, I'm not sure this would make sense for crafting. Just a random thought.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    laxie said:
    I feel like crafting is inherently disadvantaged to combat as it is a stationary experience. All of the production is generally done within one spot, or if the game is creative, a couple of spots in the same room.

    If MMO combat happened in one room, it would probably be incredibly boring. I think the fact that combat often happens across the whole zone (or a dungeon) helps a lot with making a relatively simple system feel fresh.

    Then again, I'm not sure this would make sense for crafting. Just a random thought.
    honestly, I dont think crafting could or ever will be interesting to a player like you and that is fine!

    if you change my crafting engine into a skill of timing and running around the world hoping to hit the right button at the right time then people who actually enjoy crafting as it is in high end crafting games they will stop and someone will eventually make a game that is back the way it was to begin with.

    Crafting doesnt need to be fixed, people who are not the personality type to enjoy it as it is really should not do it in the first place.

    question is...why do you want to craft anyway?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,065
    SEANMCAD said:
    honestly, I dont think crafting could or ever will be interesting to a player like you and that is fine!

    if you change my crafting engine into a skill of timing and running around the world hoping to hit the right button at the right time then people who actually enjoy crafting as it is in high end crafting games they will stop and someone will eventually make a game that is back the way it was to begin with.

    Crafting doesnt need to be fixed, people who are not the personality type to enjoy it as it is really should not do it in the first place.

    question is...why do you want to craft anyway?

    I think to most people, me included, crafting in MMOs is mainly interesting because of the broader elements. People enjoy the planning and trading aspect of it. You get your imaginary spreadsheets out, mess around with the ingredients and stats, and then think about how to best sell what you created. Or as @Nyctelios rightly suggests, the aspect of imprinting your identity into the outcome item also plays a big role.

    People rarely seem to pursue crafting for the actual crafting process itself. The actual process (between you putting ingredients in and getting outcome item out) is usually not that interesting.

    Now, I would argue that in most MMOs, this is fine. You have the combat aspect of the game, which lets people pursue the skill based elements if they enjoy that. My game has no combat at all - there are social features, trading and crafting.

    I was hoping to make crafting interesting enough to substitute combat in a way. People who then prefer faster paced (or skill based) gameplay could still find that in the various crafting disciplines. And those who enjoy crafting in traditional MMOs would still have that through the various systems surrounding crafting (such as owning/managing shops, trading ingredients, etc.)
    Nyctelios
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    laxie said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    honestly, I dont think crafting could or ever will be interesting to a player like you and that is fine!

    if you change my crafting engine into a skill of timing and running around the world hoping to hit the right button at the right time then people who actually enjoy crafting as it is in high end crafting games they will stop and someone will eventually make a game that is back the way it was to begin with.

    Crafting doesnt need to be fixed, people who are not the personality type to enjoy it as it is really should not do it in the first place.

    question is...why do you want to craft anyway?

    I think to most people, me included, crafting in MMOs is mainly interesting because of the broader elements. People enjoy the planning and trading aspect of it. You get your imaginary spreadsheets out, mess around with the ingredients and stats, and then think about how to best sell what you created. Or as @Nyctelios rightly suggests, the aspect of imprinting your identity into the outcome item also plays a big role.

    People rarely seem to pursue crafting for the actual crafting process itself. The actual process (between you putting ingredients in and getting outcome item out) is usually not that interesting.

    Now, I would argue that in most MMOs, this is fine. You have the combat aspect of the game, which lets people pursue the skill based elements if they enjoy that. My game has no combat at all - there are social features, trading and crafting.

    I was hoping to make crafting interesting enough to substitute combat in a way. People who then prefer faster paced (or skill based) gameplay could still find that in the various crafting disciplines. And those who enjoy crafting in traditional MMOs would still have that through the various systems surrounding crafting (such as owning/managing shops, trading ingredients, etc.)
    for the most part what you are describing is being a trader. Most crafters dont really craft for trading (at least in the games I play) we are literally building Navy Ships, Fishing boats etc that we use.

    The other part that you are describing you enjoy is what crafters enjoy as well. it is in effect crafting. The reason they put in progress bars instead of twitch skills on a hammer is because people dont want to do that.

    Now, if you want some experimentation on how that assessment might be wrong check out My Summer Car.

    but I think in the end you are trying to 1. solve a problem that doesnt exist 2. make something intresting that nobody is intrested in making intresting in the first place

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,586
    SEANMCAD said:
    I'm in a very different camp to Sean. 

    Crafting in real life is indeed based on two things - the recipe, then the process itself. 

    lets focus on my specific example:

    1. Is the cook interested in how to stir the pot or he is more interested in the recipes.
    2. is the home builder more interested in how to hammer or is he more interested materials, cost, design etc.
    3. Is the drug dealer more fascinated by how to get the powder from his spoon to the scale or he is more interested in the weight.

    anything post that is not related directly to my examples I will not read. Far to often responses to me get waay off track and miss the point

    WITH THAT SAID: Take a look at House Flippers and My Summer Car.
    This thread is about making crafting interesting in games. But, I'll respond directly. 

    1. The cook is interested in the end result (a good stew). They get there by selecting the ingredients for the recipe (knowledge) and then doing the cooking (skill). 

    2. The home builder is interested in the end result (a good home). He gets there by employing an architect, buying materials etc (knowledge) and then having his specialist labourers actually build the thing (skill). 

    3. Not worth dignifying with an answer. 


    If you focus on only one part of the equation - the recipe - then you are ignoring a huge area of crafting and the only place where player skill can be shown. Recipes can be incredibly complex, like building a spaceship in Kerbal Space Program, but ultimately someone can just look online to learn the recipe and bypass any skill required in understanding the recipe. 

    So, if you want to create a really engaging crafting system that allows player skill to shine, you have to gamify the actual crafting process. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    SEANMCAD said:
    I'm in a very different camp to Sean. 

    Crafting in real life is indeed based on two things - the recipe, then the process itself. 

    lets focus on my specific example:

    1. Is the cook interested in how to stir the pot or he is more interested in the recipes.
    2. is the home builder more interested in how to hammer or is he more interested materials, cost, design etc.
    3. Is the drug dealer more fascinated by how to get the powder from his spoon to the scale or he is more interested in the weight.

    anything post that is not related directly to my examples I will not read. Far to often responses to me get waay off track and miss the point

    WITH THAT SAID: Take a look at House Flippers and My Summer Car.
    This thread is about making crafting interesting in games. 
    what would you not answer number 3?

    The EQ2 approach to crafting is trying to make how one hammers a nail the most compelling aspect of building a house.

    its not.

    Even in My Summer Car the intresting part is not how to get your mouse on the screw and how to twist it. the intresting part is how many screws, where are they, how does the part go in, how much did this thing cost me, is it ready for pick up, how will it improve my car.
    That said, in tuning the car you do have to turn the screw a specific direction a specfic number of times. Maybe you consider that fun, I think most would not.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,815
    I just want to point out that most games actually do things people here said about improving crafting system - but they don't gather all those ideas as a whole.

    Tree of Savior has name/description edition. Games like Gw2 has levels of crafting requirements. I never played Wurm but from what I see (from the video) and what I read from your comments it sounds really really neat.

    Besides my point about smith becoming a process able to reach a more "unique" level for every player I think I would had fun if the game itself required something from me - as some pointed out: Like exploring a dangerous place to gather material.

    Well, FF14 does some of that. If you are equiped with mining job, you have a set of skills, like stealth. Some rare materials are only gathered from places in which the monsters are aggressive - so you have to actually play the game to collect those resources: It's not a side job, or a matter of pressing one button in certain nodes as you walk along a quest killing mobs (like Gw2). It is actually a proper job. A proper gameplay experience - that could me improved upon.

    If maybe games started to look at crafting classes or mechanics more as an opportunity to develop a new "class" with it's own mechanics (like FF14) then we'd have a proper crafting experience.

    I'm industrialist in EvE (at least while I was playing) and I had pure joy by looking at rocks all day long (and spreadsheets). 

    So, if you don't think it can be fun, or more engaging than combat, maybe it's not for you. Simple as that.
    laxieQuizzical
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    SEANMCAD said:
    Quizzical said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    There are two theories in this subject one I personally think is bonified ridiculous and the other to me seems more interesting and yes that is just my opinion man..

    1. recipes are interesting. what components go into what and in what order, what is a pre-prerequisite build as a component to a more advanced item. where the materials are and how to get them.

    2. the actual method of how one hammers a nail or stirs a pot.

    say cooking for example, I think most cooks are less interested in how to stir something and more interested in what goes into the pot.

    having said that, watching progress bars is not interesting either but that is a method of crafting that is already fallen out of favor in most crafting focused games but clearly not all.

    thus I am not interested in mini-games of stiring pots. having said that taking LIF for example I do find making sure the forge is hot enough to be somewhat interesting but as nearly a 100% crafter myself I find it less interesting then complex component tree.

    many people who think crafting needs improvement have not played games that are (for the lack of a better word) hyper focused on crafting.

    case in point, I actually quit EQ2 as mostly a crafter and went to Darkfall (back in the day) instead because I found the crafting more interesting. I found the ability to have an entire guild commited to building a boat more intresting then tier 2 gloves
    If you're relying on recipes as the way to make crafting interesting, then that just moves the question to one of where to the recipes come from.  That's not to say that your answer is wrong, but only that you're not done yet until you say how to make acquiring recipes interesting.

    If it's get one recipe and then use it to make 100 of item X, that's going to get boring awfully quick.  If recipes can be arbitrary combinations of things that give different stats, then you're closer to what I proposed in my first post above.  If you do a Tree of Savior like system where a recipe can only be used to craft an item once, then crafting really just becomes an alternate way of dropping loot from combat, not really a major activity in itself.
    the problem is nearly 100000% of the people who do not understand what I am saying very simply and concretely just have not played games that are not heavy on crafting so they basically have no fucking clue.

    In the games I play 'one recipe and then use it to make 100 of items X' is NOT THE STORY!!!!!!!
    if you have to make 100 items its because the NAVY SHIP you are building requires 100 wood, or the house you are building requires 100 stone. Or because the 100 bricks required to build an oven to cook meals in, requires 100 clay and 100 sand in order to make.

    you NEVER make 100 items just to make 100 items, it almost always leads to a 1 count or something you are going to need to stay alive

    In a lot of games, crafting is make 100 of item X.  And then vendor them all because no one wants any of item X.  Not all, of course, but I'm saying that it's something that you have to avoid.

    But even if what you're doing is building a navy ship by building 100 of item X, that can still get boring.  One hopes for more variety in building that navy ship than just doing some simple thing a huge number of times.  If you need to craft 30 different things to build that navy ship, and crafting each of those items is substantially different from crafting any other, then you're onto something.
  • Siegecraft.orgSiegecraft.org Member UncommonPosts: 35
    Make almost literally barely any to none items purchasable from NPC vendors, to make crafting a must have in the game, so that to baseline progress and get stronger you must have crafting and an economy.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,092
    SEANMCAD said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    I'm in a very different camp to Sean. 

    Crafting in real life is indeed based on two things - the recipe, then the process itself. 

    lets focus on my specific example:

    1. Is the cook interested in how to stir the pot or he is more interested in the recipes.
    2. is the home builder more interested in how to hammer or is he more interested materials, cost, design etc.
    3. Is the drug dealer more fascinated by how to get the powder from his spoon to the scale or he is more interested in the weight.

    anything post that is not related directly to my examples I will not read. Far to often responses to me get waay off track and miss the point

    WITH THAT SAID: Take a look at House Flippers and My Summer Car.
    This thread is about making crafting interesting in games. 
    what would you not answer number 3?

    The EQ2 approach to crafting is trying to make how one hammers a nail the most compelling aspect of building a house.

    its not.

    Even in My Summer Car the intresting part is not how to get your mouse on the screw and how to twist it. the intresting part is how many screws, where are they, how does the part go in, how much did this thing cost me, is it ready for pick up, how will it improve my car.
    That said, in tuning the car you do have to turn the screw a specific direction a specfic number of times. Maybe you consider that fun, I think most would not.

    The problem with the EQ2 approach to crafting is not so much that it focuses on how to hammer a nail as that it makes every single thing you can craft in the entire game exactly like hammering that nail.
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