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Freedom to leveling and Map systems

nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
edited July 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
1. Freedom to leveling

Sometimes u want to kill cute mobs like poring, mystcase, poporing, lunatic (ragnarok online mobs)

sometimes u want to kill undead like zombies

sometime u want to kill bandits types

sometimes u want to kill orcs, centaur type

I want this mobs exist in all level stages. example there is level 1 poring and also level 100 poring king world boss

there is level 1 centaur (like gw2 starting zone) and level 100 centaur king that as strong as world boss

u get the picture? however the map is very geologically correct. Meaning, If u travel from town to town, the mobs design appear logical.

2. Maps systems.

level 1-10 players share the same map. the map is huge, imagine gw2. In this map there is level 10 boss monster that player who level 1-10 can join force to defeat it.

There are also level 100 world boss, so max level player can come back to the map and kill. For reason like loot, cool buff items (with 0.1% chance drop) and job progressions, some job require u to kill world boss before u can increase rank. however, lower level players cant do much damage

mini boss spawn every 1 hours and world boss every 3 hours.

Comments

  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 226
    edited July 2017
    I honestly prefer getting rid of levels. I love metroidvania games where you can explore more and tackle bigger challenges by collecting new abilities. Love it so much I don't see any point in leveling accept to lazily gate progression... because it's hard to design metroidvania style environments. Requires planning and smarts.

    One of my favourite online rpgs was guild wars. The level cap was 20 and could be reached in a day or two in factions and nightfall. The rest of the game was about getting skills and making builds that could tackle the baddies in specific areas. And the story was required to unlock a lot of places. It was pretty nice progression system and i miss it very much.
    Steelhelm
  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    I honestly prefer getting rid of levels. I love metroidvania games where you can explore more and tackle bigger challenges by collecting new abilities. Love it so much I don't see any point in leveling accept to lazily gate progression... because it's hard to design metroidvania style environments. Requires planning and smarts.

    One of my favourite online rpgs was guild wars. The level cap was 20 and could be reached in a day or two in factions and nightfall. The rest of the game was about getting skills and making builds that could tackle the baddies in specific areas. And the story was required to unlock a lot of places. It was pretty nice progression system and i miss it very much.
    rp? u can kill a deer but dragon? nah
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,950
    Why you keep asking for those lazies to do more work ? Just ignore them and play other game so those guys will move to other type of game instead of keep wasting money of MMORPG genre .
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    1. Freedom to leveling

    Sometimes u want to kill cute mobs like poring, mystcase, poporing, lunatic (ragnarok online mobs)

    sometimes u want to kill undead like zombies

    sometime u want to kill bandits types

    sometimes u want to kill orcs, centaur type

    I want this mobs exist in all level stages. example there is level 1 poring and also level 100 poring king world boss
    That's not what I would define as freedom to leveling. 

    Sometimes I want to explore.

    Sometimes I want to socialize.

    Sometimes I want to gather.

    Sometimes I want to craft.

    Sometimes I want to build.

    Sometimes I want to trade

    Sometimes I don't want to kill.
    R3d.GallowsdeniterSteelhelmmrputts
  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    Eldurian said:
    1. Freedom to leveling

    Sometimes u want to kill cute mobs like poring, mystcase, poporing, lunatic (ragnarok online mobs)

    sometimes u want to kill undead like zombies

    sometime u want to kill bandits types

    sometimes u want to kill orcs, centaur type

    I want this mobs exist in all level stages. example there is level 1 poring and also level 100 poring king world boss
    That's not what I would define as freedom to leveling. 

    Sometimes I want to explore.

    Sometimes I want to socialize.

    Sometimes I want to gather.

    Sometimes I want to craft.

    Sometimes I want to build.

    Sometimes I want to trade

    Sometimes I don't want to kill.
    yeah that too
  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    level 1-10 players share the same map. the map is huge, imagine gw2. In this map there is level 10 boss monster that player who level 1-10 can join force to defeat it.

    There are also level 100 world boss, so max level player can come back to the map and kill. For reason like loot, cool buff items (with 0.1% chance drop) and job progressions, some job require u to kill world boss before u can increase rank. however, lower level players cant do much damage

    mini boss spawn every 1 hours and world boss every 3 hours.

    this is early level raid defination
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited July 2017
    On the ability to fight all enemies at all levels, a simple way to do this is decrease the power gap between veterans and newbs.

    Useless NPCs are the product of steep power gaps. When you have 50+ levels in a game and a level gap of 5-10 levels makes you invincible versus mobs that much lower than you then you need to:

    A. Implement the much hated "de-leveling" mechanics for going to lower level zones.
    B. Make new enemies every 5-10 levels of every type you want people in that level range to be able to enjoyably fight.

    Suppose instead there were no level gaps that make characters literally invincible. That 2-3 newbs were equivalent in power to a max level character. That means those goblins you were fighting at level 1. If you pull 2-3 times as many they are still the same challenge level. Just go do low level content with smaller groups and it's still fun.

    And I mean if you think about it, that makes more sense as progression anyway. Why is it there are goblins in one part of the world who's attacks bounce off of you harmlessly but goblins of a different color skin in a slightly different part of the world that you can only take 1 or 2 at a time? If you reach a point you can take on 2-3 times as many of the weaker races, that actually seems more like a meaningful progression that you can feel than progressing to the point that some content is so easy you can literally hit the NPCs for hundreds or thousands of times their health in damage with auto-attack. One makes your character feel heroic in the lower level areas. One just breaks all immersion and suspension of disbelief for anyone above the age of 5.
    GdemamiSteelhelmLoke666
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,653
    edited July 2017
    Eldurian said:
    On the ability to fight all enemies at all levels, a simple way to do this is decrease the power gap between veterans and newbs.
    [...]
    A. Implement the much hated "de-leveling" mechanics for going to lower level zones.
    B. Make new enemies every 5-10 levels of every type you want people in that level range to be able to enjoyably fight.
    Or C. get rid of levels.  :lol:

    A few years ago I posted about it under a similar thread, TSW had maybe the smallest gap among games out there. Of course that's flushed down the toilet now with Legends and its level system...

    In TSW the difference between a fresh character and a character at the end was just a bit more HP (literally a bit, not like regular games' level 1 = 200 hp, level 50 = 6000 hp for example), a bit better phys and mag protection, and a few % on the weapons. Everything else was from the gear, and progression just ment a wider array of abilities to choose from.

    If you geared an endgame character into starter talis and weapon, and used a starter deck, it was just maybe 30-40% stronger than a fresh character in the same gear, using the same deck.
    Compared to most games, in where as Eldurian said "a level gap of 5-10 levels makes you invincible"

    (worth mentioning that the access was quick too, a fresh character could reach the point when he can wear QL10 talis and wield QL10 weapons in less than a week. From that, it was just filling the Wheel, and getting better gear.)


    edit: found the old notes, +570hp (2070 instead of 1500) and +300 mitigation (instead of the starter 0). That's all the differences. Damage is the same, just can take a bit more beating. The weapon bonuses don't give much (for example blood gives about 10% more damage during blood offering), so I'd say the "30-40% stronger" above is more like 20-30% instead.
    Not much of a gap, if you ask me... :smiley:
    Post edited by Po_gg on
    Gdemami
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited July 2017
    As you can see in my signature I'm a big proponent of C but that list was describing what you have to do to create his system in a game with a steep level gap.

    The thing is some people really love their progression. A game that had a reasonable power gap is a game I'd be ok with the level process and even the much discussed "Make progression last forever."

    Largely, it's the steepness of the power gap that makes current MMO progression systems absolutely unacceptable IMO. It's not realistic, it's not fun, it's outdated. An at least semi-realistic power gap is something I could tolerate despite my preference for horizontal progression. 

    Having someone who's played 5 years longer than my fresh character be 2-3 times my strength is something I'm ok with. Having someone who's played 5 days longer than my fresh character be literally invincible against me is something I am not ok with.
    Gdemami
  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    edited July 2017
    Eldurian said:
    On the ability to fight all enemies at all levels, a simple way to do this is decrease the power gap between veterans and newbs.

    Useless NPCs are the product of steep power gaps. When you have 50+ levels in a game and a level gap of 5-10 levels makes you invincible versus mobs that much lower than you then you need to:

    A. Implement the much hated "de-leveling" mechanics for going to lower level zones.
    B. Make new enemies every 5-10 levels of every type you want people in that level range to be able to enjoyably fight.

    Suppose instead there were no level gaps that make characters literally invincible. That 2-3 newbs were equivalent in power to a max level character. That means those goblins you were fighting at level 1. If you pull 2-3 times as many they are still the same challenge level. Just go do low level content with smaller groups and it's still fun.

    And I mean if you think about it, that makes more sense as progression anyway. Why is it there are goblins in one part of the world who's attacks bounce off of you harmlessly but goblins of a different color skin in a slightly different part of the world that you can only take 1 or 2 at a time? If you reach a point you can take on 2-3 times as many of the weaker races, that actually seems more like a meaningful progression that you can feel than progressing to the point that some content is so easy you can literally hit the NPCs for hundreds or thousands of times their health in damage with auto-attack. One makes your character feel heroic in the lower level areas. One just breaks all immersion and suspension of disbelief for anyone above the age of 5.
    levels is what makes RP in mmorpg..

    how u explain logic when u can defeat dragon boss alduin without any training? in real life u grind in gym to get buffed....in game u suddenly level 1 and can defeat bosses? go play moba like seriously i play dota 2 on daily basic. moba and mmorpg are different mindset..i can get max level in dota for like 30 minutes but in mmorpg probably 3 years

    what special in mmorpg, is grind. u dont force leveling, u dont need to be stronger than others. what special is the story u make in ur mind aka RP.

    u go to work...and on freetime u login, grind for 1 hour or just have fun chat ingame... casual ..if u want action go play dota 2 or lol..seriously its not a mocking...i do play dota 2..and probably download lol...
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    In real life I could grind in a gym to get at most 2-3 time stronger. In real life, I can beat average sized people who go to gyms daily despite the fact I don't and spend most of my time on a computer because I was fortunate enough to be born 6'7" tall with the build of a viking. In real life, if they wanted to overcome that disadvantage they would have to rely on their skill at fighting (Which translates to player skills.)

    Yes. It is perfectly reasonable that people only have to work for reasonable advantages, player skill play a more important role in deciding the victor, and that no stat gap makes the player literally invincible against any kind of NPC or player. If that means some insanely skilled player can get in on a raid against a dragon meant for a player 2-3 times their strength and actually manage to do pretty well, I'm ok with that.
    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    OP:

    what you are wanting is in every game I play currently. item 1 on your list is unheard of to me in modern era (post 2008) and 2 wouldn't even have context really

    in fact, it kind of circle back to my observation here on MMORPG.com, players coming up with ideas and suggestions that already exist in games I personally play but at the same time said players not interested in the games I play for other reasons that they dont care to talk much about.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    levels is what makes RP in mmorpg..

    how u explain logic when u can defeat dragon boss alduin without any training? in real life u grind in gym to get buffed....in game u suddenly level 1 and can defeat bosses? go play moba like seriously i play dota 2 on daily basic. moba and mmorpg are different mindset..i can get max level in dota for like 30 minutes but in mmorpg probably 3 years

    what special in mmorpg, is grind. u dont force leveling, u dont need to be stronger than others. what special is the story u make in ur mind aka RP.

    u go to work...and on freetime u login, grind for 1 hour or just have fun chat ingame... casual ..if u want action go play dota 2 or lol..seriously its not a mocking...i do play dota 2..and probably download lol...
    No, not even progression makes a game RP.

    What do you mean, you don't start out as newly born in MMOs? Even a super noob character have some background maybe she was a peasant deciding to be an adventurer or something. Is really starting out as a bumbling fool that important?

    And I don't follow you logic, grind is not something special in MMOs or even in RPGs, you can grind characters and gear in games like Rainbow 6: Siege (example, are tons of others). As for the story in your head is RPing that is kinda true but you can basically make a story in your head for almost all games. You can RP in any multiplayer game but that does not make them a RPG game just like you can drink beer at most places but that don't turn them into a bar.

    All MMOs should not be as action oriented (and far from all action is good action, wading through tons of trashmobs in TERAs early levels is action but you are in no danger at all making it boring action).

    The thing that makes a MMORPG RP have to do with immersion, a world that actually seems real, your own attitude and the story & background of it all. 

    Progression is added to give you a reward as you play but there is something like too much rewards.

    I am all for progression in MMORPGs but the insane powergap does not help at all. It just make people lazy and outlevel the challenges instead of actually learning tactics and how to play well. And it needlessly splits the community even more.

    OP: Having many mobs at different levelranges is not so great as it sounds, it just leads to your lvl 75 dragonkiller getting killed by an ordinary lvl 80 wolf. Monster types is fine, low level undead could be slow zombies while a high level one could be a liche. Try instead of being consistent with specific mobs but let bosses have the ability to get tougher just like players so while goblins might be lvl 15 Squee the mad could be lvl 50 since he got experience just like you. 

    It adds consistency as long as they differ, while a Direwolf could be dangerous to your mid level warrior a regular wolf should be no match to him. And you will easily kill goblins but hobgoblins, swampgoblins and other sub races could be far stronger then their weak cousins. Just let them look different.
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