Why can't it be that if you want to group you can and if you don't want to group you can. I don't want to be restricted or forced in any way. I don't want to have content walled off just because I can't find a group or because I don't feel like grouping. Grouping gives its own benefits when done right but it also gives a lot of headaches when it becomes forced. I play games to have fun and not be dictated to by those gaming around me.
Well, if you mean that some content are for groups and others for soloing and you pick what you play that can easily be done.
If you on the other hand means that all content should be for soloing and people can group to make that easier that wont work since the difficulty becomes so easy that there is no point except to save time while leveling.
The group content as you level up is meant to learn you the group combat mechanics so you actually can do the endgame. If you don't have enough challenging group action as you level up you will suddenly be in the hard endgame with zero clue how to play your character and that makes you either quit or begging a guild to train you, which is way harder then if you learned it naturally as you level up and it is time consuming and forces your guildies to help you lot.
Group and solo content should always be optional (besides the tutorial) but it must be there. If you don't want to play with others and skip the endgame that is fine but unless you figure out a complete new solo endgame the grouping must be there all the time to train those who actually want to be in the endgame how to play it.
Also, a game with only solo or group play will be poorer then a game with both, many if not most of us actually play both and a good MMO have many different types of players.
I'm going to say this again, what we are talking about here is raiding and dungeon. This is what is meant as forced grouping. And getting the rewards as solo content is what is being discussed. The OP worded the question sneaky like, but what they want to know is if others support allowing solo player to get Tiered raiding gear from solo quests, raids, or dungeons, because they are often excluded for various reasons, mostly gear stat score.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I'm going to say this again, what we are talking about here is raiding and dungeon. This is what is meant as forced grouping. And getting the rewards as solo content is what is being discussed. The OP worded the question sneaky like, but what they want to know is if others support allowing solo player to get Tiered raiding gear from solo quests, raids, or dungeons, because they are often excluded for various reasons, mostly gear stat score.
are you trying to say the subject at hand is different from what the OP posted?
or am I not following you right
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'm going to say this again, what we are talking about here is raiding and dungeon. This is what is meant as forced grouping. And getting the rewards as solo content is what is being discussed. The OP worded the question sneaky like, but what they want to know is if others support allowing solo player to get Tiered raiding gear from solo quests, raids, or dungeons, because they are often excluded for various reasons, mostly gear stat score.
are you trying to say the subject at hand is different from what the OP posted?
or am I not following you right
I'm not changing the subject. I'm saying from the Original post this has been a discussion about raiding (disguise as forced grouping), and Gear Score as the Anti-Social behavior. The Original idea, as I see it, was to hide that fact from the thread.
"MMOs that force groups to do content are actually promote anti-social behavior." should have been read "MMOs that do Raids are actually promote Gear Score behavior."
Therefore this has always been about getting Tiered raid gear by doing solo activities. If anyone believes that raid and PvP tiered gear should be made available to solo and PvE than support this then.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I'm going to say this again, what we are talking about here is raiding and dungeon. This is what is meant as forced grouping. And getting the rewards as solo content is what is being discussed. The OP worded the question sneaky like, but what they want to know is if others support allowing solo player to get Tiered raiding gear from solo quests, raids, or dungeons, because they are often excluded for various reasons, mostly gear stat score.
are you trying to say the subject at hand is different from what the OP posted?
or am I not following you right
I'm not changing the subject. I'm saying from the Original post this has been a discussion about raiding (disguise as forced grouping), and Gear Score as the Anti-Social behavior. The Original idea, as I see it, was to hide that fact from the thread.
"MMOs that force groups to do content are actually promote anti-social behavior." should have been read "MMOs that do Raids are actually promote Gear Score behavior."
Therefore this has always been about getting Tiered raid gear by doing solo activities. If anyone believes that raid and PvP tiered gear should be made available to solo and PvE than support this then.
the intent of what the OP said is the Intent of the conversation. (disguised or not)
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I only played one of the open beta weekends for eso. So I'll take your word for it.
I always preferred the way EQ did leveling (till ldon anyway). It was just content. Could do it grouped. Could try and solo slowly. No restrictions or limits. Just content.
I see the merits of both sides of this. The issue with making things "just content" is that something that is quite challenging to a single character or five characters is of no challenge whatsoever to 15. If the rewards are the same... then there is no reason not to just zerg your way through everything. You see this with library dailies in ArcheAge. They are quests that take an hour or two for a moderately geared individual. Each day when the quests reset people form full raids and storm through it all in about ten minutes. Literally no challenge involved.
Limiting group size or scaling the content's power to the number of players provides some things that are an actual challenge to the players involved. However this is generally counteracted by the fact you can then outlevel/outgear anything in the game, making it a pretty moot point.
A mix of content with limited group sizes/scaling power and things you can run through and do with however many people you want seems like the best compromise if a game were to keep progression at a more realistic level. For most MMOs on the market I kind of agree though. Why bother?
Players make the decision to trivialize the content. It's not always the responsibility of the developer to keep trying to stop the players from doing what they seem to want to do it just merely slows them down for awhile.
I'm going to say this again, what we are talking about here is raiding and dungeon. This is what is meant as forced grouping. And getting the rewards as solo content is what is being discussed. The OP worded the question sneaky like, but what they want to know is if others support allowing solo player to get Tiered raiding gear from solo quests, raids, or dungeons, because they are often excluded for various reasons, mostly gear stat score.
are you trying to say the subject at hand is different from what the OP posted?
or am I not following you right
I'm not changing the subject. I'm saying from the Original post this has been a discussion about raiding (disguise as forced grouping), and Gear Score as the Anti-Social behavior. The Original idea, as I see it, was to hide that fact from the thread.
"MMOs that force groups to do content are actually promote anti-social behavior." should have been read "MMOs that do Raids are actually promote Gear Score behavior."
Therefore this has always been about getting Tiered raid gear by doing solo activities. If anyone believes that raid and PvP tiered gear should be made available to solo and PvE than support this then.
the intent of what the OP said is the Intent of the conversation. (disguised or not)
If it was, then no one would of asked. I re-read the thread, and I didn't see an understanding, If I am mistaken then I apologies.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I'm going to say this again, what we are talking about here is raiding and dungeon. This is what is meant as forced grouping. And getting the rewards as solo content is what is being discussed. The OP worded the question sneaky like, but what they want to know is if others support allowing solo player to get Tiered raiding gear from solo quests, raids, or dungeons, because they are often excluded for various reasons, mostly gear stat score.
are you trying to say the subject at hand is different from what the OP posted?
or am I not following you right
I'm not changing the subject. I'm saying from the Original post this has been a discussion about raiding (disguise as forced grouping), and Gear Score as the Anti-Social behavior. The Original idea, as I see it, was to hide that fact from the thread.
"MMOs that force groups to do content are actually promote anti-social behavior." should have been read "MMOs that do Raids are actually promote Gear Score behavior."
Therefore this has always been about getting Tiered raid gear by doing solo activities. If anyone believes that raid and PvP tiered gear should be made available to solo and PvE than support this then.
the intent of what the OP said is the Intent of the conversation. (disguised or not)
If it was, then no one would of asked. I re-read the thread, and I didn't see an understanding, If I am mistaken then I apologies.
I think (and this is just crazy me talking) that regardless of what other people think a statment is truely out the person who knows it the most is the person who said it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Players make the decision to trivialize the content. It's not always the responsibility of the developer to keep trying to stop the players from doing what they seem to want to do it just merely slows them down for awhile.
The developers only use a kind of solution for this: They moved all challenging content to the endgame which you can't outlevel.
It is not a good solution but almost all below levelcap is insanely easy already so it really doesn't matter if the players group or overlevel it.
On the other hand does it make the entire leveling thing more and more pointless and I think that is the reason so many people are getting interested in horizontal progression.
The thing is that a good MMORPG need the right difficulty, if failing or winning is close to impossible for most players that difficulty if off. People should fail at times unless they play brilliantly (few people do), Blizzard knew this when they made Wow and TBC but they seems to have forgotten it with everyone else the last 10 years besides for raids and a few dungeons.
Just solving all challenges by outleveling or to group on them might sound smart at first but it makes people tire at the game rather much faster.
It is a problem that is hard to solve for a game with normal levelcurve though, you can't just increase the difficulty so much that people must outlevel or group to win, that makes the game rather pointless and boring. You could use scaling and downlevel people to the zone but that is not easy either, GW2 for an instance uses this but being downleveled and more players still makes the content much easier meaning they do it wrong.
Personally do I think a lot of the problem can be solved by lowering the powergap, instead of starting with 50 hp and go to 50 000 you can go to 5000 or even 500 and skip the mitigation players and mobs get from being hit by lower level enemies. Even then you can outlevel stuff but to be sure to win if you suck you need a lot higher level then.
The group thing is harder, having the mobs call for help from more mobs with a scaling system probably is the easiest solution. You can use that as well when something higher attack and have the help being from the right level.
Limiting group size or scaling the content's power to the number of players provides some things that are an actual challenge to the players involved. However this is generally counteracted by the fact you can then outlevel/outgear anything in the game, making it a pretty moot point.
A mix of content with limited group sizes/scaling power and things you can run through and do with however many people you want seems like the best compromise if a game were to keep progression at a more realistic level. For most MMOs on the market I kind of agree though. Why bother?
Players make the decision to trivialize the content. It's not always the responsibility of the developer to keep trying to stop the players from doing what they seem to want to do it just merely slows them down for awhile.
The issue is that in any game that content has a trivial method of dealing with it then that becomes the standard way of dealing with it.
A. You probably aren't going to find groups that will do it in a more challenging fashion. B. If there is any competition between players you are nerfing yourself by not doing it that way. C. It minimizes the accomplishment of people who achieve it in the challenging fashion.
The "Just merely slows them down" argument may be true in MMOs but that is because most MMOs fail to offer any legitimately challenging content. Most games made in 2017 don't. It's not true for any games with legitimately challenging content. You don't just beat the original Halo on legendary difficulty the easy way. You just don't just beat Total War Atilla on max difficulty as the Western Roman Empire the easy way. There is no easy way. You beat the challenge head on or you lose.
And that makes it actually mean something to complete those challenges.
The issue is that in any game that content has a trivial method of dealing with it then that becomes the standard way of dealing with it.
A. You probably aren't going to find groups that will do it in a more challenging fashion. B. If there is any competition between players you are nerfing yourself by not doing it that way. C. It minimizes the accomplishment of people who achieve it in the challenging fashion.
so? No one is obligated to play a game the way you like. If you like what they are doing, do it with them (group). And "accomplishment" in a video game? Please ...
Don't tell me that you put "season raiders of WoW" on your resume.
No. Nor did I put the fact I've won archery tournaments or made the varsity football team at the end of my freshman year on my resume but I still take pride in doing things that aren't easy to do.
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Well .. if you want to find challenge in man-made video games, that is your prerogative. Personally, challenges and achievement only applies to real world stuff (like writing a book, or solving a good technical problems).
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Well .. if you want to find challenge in man-made video games, that is your prerogative. Personally, challenges and achievement only applies to real world stuff (like writing a book, or solving a good technical problems).
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Well .. if you want to find challenge in man-made video games, that is your prerogative. Personally, challenges and achievement only applies to real world stuff (like writing a book, or solving a good technical problems).
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Yeh absolutely crazy. I would consider spending time on challenges in games a waste of time. But of course, that is only me.
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Well .. if you want to find challenge in man-made video games, that is your prerogative. Personally, challenges and achievement only applies to real world stuff (like writing a book, or solving a good technical problems).
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Yeh absolutely crazy. I would consider spending time on challenges in games a waste of time. But of course, that is only me.
Challenges in video games got thrown out the moment when paperback guides threw up on the internet.
What amazes me the most, is folks still trying to fucking profit off this.
If your playing a video game your wasting time anyway so if he likes challenges and he enjoys having challenges in the games he plays for entertainment then great. It's doing exactly what it is supposed to do.
Do you not look for entertainment in your leisure games? If you do, great.
If you don't, your odd, and not the good kind.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Well .. if you want to find challenge in man-made video games, that is your prerogative. Personally, challenges and achievement only applies to real world stuff (like writing a book, or solving a good technical problems).
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Yeh absolutely crazy. I would consider spending time on challenges in games a waste of time. But of course, that is only me.
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
Well .. if you want to find challenge in man-made video games, that is your prerogative. Personally, challenges and achievement only applies to real world stuff (like writing a book, or solving a good technical problems).
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Yeah. If you aren't going to take pride in what you do and challenge yourself, I don't see the point. I can take pride in-game accomplishments and out of game accomplishments. But I mean whatever you want Nariusseldon if you don't want to put any effort into or challenge yourself with a hobby I'm assuming you put hundreds or thousands of hours into then be my guest.
For me though, the ability to challenge myself if one of the reasons I prefer gaming over TV.
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Yeh absolutely crazy. I would consider spending time on challenges in games a waste of time. But of course, that is only me.
Then what's the point? If a game doesn't challenge you might as well watch someone else play on youtube or see a movie.
Sure, there should be different difficulty on different things but when everything is easy nothing means anything. You can't get that kick for completing something that take skill....
...Ah, so that is why MMORPGs always tells people today that they are special snowflakes, because the content generally is so easy that the game needs to tell you that you are good instead of you getting the feeling because you play good.
Some people like challenges in both. I know, crazy!
Yeh absolutely crazy. I would consider spending time on challenges in games a waste of time. But of course, that is only me.
...Ah, so that is why MMORPGs always tells people today that they are special snowflakes, because the content generally is so easy that the game needs to tell you that you are good instead of you getting the feeling because you play good.
It explains so much.
It's so true. "You are the chosen one! Only you can save the world! The destiny that lies ahead of you is so, so, so, very epic. Now could you please kill 10 enemies that take no effort to defeat and deliver a letter for me?"
...Ah, so that is why MMORPGs always tells people today that they are special snowflakes, because the content generally is so easy that the game needs to tell you that you are good instead of you getting the feeling because you play good.
It explains so much.
It's so true. "You are the chosen one! Only you can save the world! The destiny that lies ahead of you is so, so, so, very epic. Now could you please kill 10 enemies that take no effort to defeat and deliver a letter for me?"
I actually never considered it until I was halfway into the post.
Why does one side have to be right and the other have to be wrong? You have folks that want to group up and folks that want nothing to do with the other players they see in game. Neither side is wrong, play the game as you like.
I see one group that demands the other play the way they want. I know, I know "Wait a minute Cirran, I did not say that". Well in a way you did, and here's how. I see a mentality that says "If you play in a group you should get more rewards of all types". I ask why? If you make all game content scale to group size and make rewards the same regardless of group size, who would group up? Only those that want to "socialize". Folks who want "group dynamics" get what they want and folks who want nothing to do with other players get what they want. I am curious how many folks that want "group dynamics" actually only group for the extra benefits developers give to groups.
I would guess also that the biggest complaint to this idea would be what is the point of grouping if soloing gives you the same rewards? I should get more rewards for grouping up. Again see my question above.
I think we are seeing a slow glacial shift in the MMO landscape. I would not be surprised if we start to see developers move away from "you get more rewards in a group".
As always, this is just my opinion. It is no better or worse than anyone else.
Comments
If you on the other hand means that all content should be for soloing and people can group to make that easier that wont work since the difficulty becomes so easy that there is no point except to save time while leveling.
The group content as you level up is meant to learn you the group combat mechanics so you actually can do the endgame. If you don't have enough challenging group action as you level up you will suddenly be in the hard endgame with zero clue how to play your character and that makes you either quit or begging a guild to train you, which is way harder then if you learned it naturally as you level up and it is time consuming and forces your guildies to help you lot.
Group and solo content should always be optional (besides the tutorial) but it must be there. If you don't want to play with others and skip the endgame that is fine but unless you figure out a complete new solo endgame the grouping must be there all the time to train those who actually want to be in the endgame how to play it.
Also, a game with only solo or group play will be poorer then a game with both, many if not most of us actually play both and a good MMO have many different types of players.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
or am I not following you right
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"MMOs that force groups to do content are actually promote anti-social behavior." should have been read "MMOs that do Raids are actually promote Gear Score behavior."
Therefore this has always been about getting Tiered raid gear by doing solo activities. If anyone believes that raid and PvP tiered gear should be made available to solo and PvE than support this then.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It is not a good solution but almost all below levelcap is insanely easy already so it really doesn't matter if the players group or overlevel it.
On the other hand does it make the entire leveling thing more and more pointless and I think that is the reason so many people are getting interested in horizontal progression.
The thing is that a good MMORPG need the right difficulty, if failing or winning is close to impossible for most players that difficulty if off. People should fail at times unless they play brilliantly (few people do), Blizzard knew this when they made Wow and TBC but they seems to have forgotten it with everyone else the last 10 years besides for raids and a few dungeons.
Just solving all challenges by outleveling or to group on them might sound smart at first but it makes people tire at the game rather much faster.
It is a problem that is hard to solve for a game with normal levelcurve though, you can't just increase the difficulty so much that people must outlevel or group to win, that makes the game rather pointless and boring. You could use scaling and downlevel people to the zone but that is not easy either, GW2 for an instance uses this but being downleveled and more players still makes the content much easier meaning they do it wrong.
Personally do I think a lot of the problem can be solved by lowering the powergap, instead of starting with 50 hp and go to 50 000 you can go to 5000 or even 500 and skip the mitigation players and mobs get from being hit by lower level enemies. Even then you can outlevel stuff but to be sure to win if you suck you need a lot higher level then.
The group thing is harder, having the mobs call for help from more mobs with a scaling system probably is the easiest solution. You can use that as well when something higher attack and have the help being from the right level.
A. You probably aren't going to find groups that will do it in a more challenging fashion.
B. If there is any competition between players you are nerfing yourself by not doing it that way.
C. It minimizes the accomplishment of people who achieve it in the challenging fashion.
The "Just merely slows them down" argument may be true in MMOs but that is because most MMOs fail to offer any legitimately challenging content. Most games made in 2017 don't. It's not true for any games with legitimately challenging content. You don't just beat the original Halo on legendary difficulty the easy way. You just don't just beat Total War Atilla on max difficulty as the Western Roman Empire the easy way. There is no easy way. You beat the challenge head on or you lose.
And that makes it actually mean something to complete those challenges.
Nobody has to play games the way I do. Nobody has to play the same games I do. But I like to play games with an actual challenge. Other people can play WoW or whatever.
-signed OP
What amazes me the most, is folks still trying to fucking profit off this.
Do you not look for entertainment in your leisure games? If you do, great.
If you don't, your odd, and not the good kind.
For me though, the ability to challenge myself if one of the reasons I prefer gaming over TV.
Sure, there should be different difficulty on different things but when everything is easy nothing means anything. You can't get that kick for completing something that take skill....
...Ah, so that is why MMORPGs always tells people today that they are special snowflakes, because the content generally is so easy that the game needs to tell you that you are good instead of you getting the feeling because you play good.
It explains so much.
I see one group that demands the other play the way they want. I know, I know "Wait a minute Cirran, I did not say that". Well in a way you did, and here's how. I see a mentality that says "If you play in a group you should get more rewards of all types". I ask why? If you make all game content scale to group size and make rewards the same regardless of group size, who would group up? Only those that want to "socialize". Folks who want "group dynamics" get what they want and folks who want nothing to do with other players get what they want. I am curious how many folks that want "group dynamics" actually only group for the extra benefits developers give to groups.
I would guess also that the biggest complaint to this idea would be what is the point of grouping if soloing gives you the same rewards? I should get more rewards for grouping up. Again see my question above.
I think we are seeing a slow glacial shift in the MMO landscape. I would not be surprised if we start to see developers move away from "you get more rewards in a group".
As always, this is just my opinion. It is no better or worse than anyone else.
Cirran