I play an MMORPG with no cash shop at all. Loving it, actually. ]
Interesting. Yet apparently you don't care to share with is what it is. I wonder why that is? Some details about it you don't want me to look into? Other monetization methods perhaps? Or is it just some ancient / indie MMO on the edge of death?
You choose not to see the vital difference because it doesn't support your argument.
It's that I fundamentally reject the idea that being handed higher stats (Especially exponentially higher ones) for playing longer is an appropriate reward. The reward for your time should be the same as it is in any other hobby. The opportunity to develop skill, based on how hard you work to develop that skill in your time playing.
Levels are a participation trophy, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how well you do, as long as you show up you get the reward same as anyone else.
If you play a game longer then me, but you suck harder than me, you deserve to lose. You are the one who shouldn't be able to do the more difficult content. Period. End of story. Because if you've played longer and yet still suck harder, you've clearly done something wrong with your time.
Levels reward people who can't play games. And TBH I'm pretty sure that's why you are defending them so adamantly. Going to guess same is true for most the people liking your posts. Generally the strongest proponents of leveling are people who would be forced back into playing easy mode on single player games if they didn't have their stat crutches to prop them up.
Don't sit there and pretend like you've earned it, and don't compare you sitting there hitting "1, 2, 3, 4" and following the green arrows to your next quest objective is comparable to the efforts someone who has a real talent such as playing an instrument, painting, or playing a sport must go through to develop it.
Frankly, as someone who has played sports and gone home at the end of practice days or competitions feeling like I was going to puke because I worked so hard I find it laughable you would even compare the two.
Leveling is about an addiction to watching numbers go up from doing braindead level simple tasks. It's pretty much just a drug. And that's why you're argument is "appealing to popularism" so well. Coming on MMORPG.com and saying levels need to be abolished is like walking into a crack den and telling everyone they need to stop doing crack. Yes, I want to take your drug away, because this genre has so much more potential than catering to a bunch of addicts who want to mainline XP all day.
Yeah. There is talent in video games. It comes from top level players who work their butts off to earn it, not rotation cycling zombies in grindfest MMOs. Those are the bottom feeders of the gaming industry. It's practically a spectator sport. You might as well be watching TV.
No. You still have to beat the encounter in order to get the xp. Just showing up doesn't beat the encounter.
Most hobbies kinda work the same way too. By far most people in their hobby just do a bit, some for long periods of time, others for less. But only a few really go far. Be it sports, music, painting, models...
Actually it is pretty much like that for every aspect of life. Most do the minimum required to get by.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
No. You still have to beat the encounter in order to get the xp. Just showing up doesn't beat the encounter.
Most hobbies kinda work the same way too. By far most people in their hobby just do a bit, some for long periods of time, others for less. But only a few really go far. Be it sports, music, painting, models...
Actually it is pretty much like that for every aspect of life. Most do the minimum required to get by.
I'm not going to disagree with that but in almost every hobby except grind heavy MMOs, those who do the minimum to get by are far exceeded by those who are driven.
For instance when you play sports everyone tends to go to practice for the same amount of time each day. The whole team is practicing X number of hours for X days a week. But among all those people doing the same general things for the same amount of time, some excel and some fall behind. Nobody can sit here and tell me that if a team practices together for the same amount of time they all end up equally skilled because it's simply not true.
That is a measure of effort. The people at the top give it their all. The people at the bottom do the minimum required to get by.
That doesn't really fit the "Hero's Journey" argument too. Remember the part in Star Wars were Luke ran around delivering messages to people and killing boars for a few hundred/thousand hours? Neither do I. A hero's journey should be difficult and and actually challenge you. Learning a skill based game and working hard to excel at it fits that description. Grinding does not.
Also. Just showing up really does tend to beat the encounter if you have a pulse. I can't remember the last time I was challenged by any level appropriate content I did in an MMO that wasn't PvP. Even most PvP against equally geared players is easy most times.
When you claim P2W, what you're really saying is that there are other things you value more highly than paying for an MMO and that those things are consuming so much of your money that you haven't much left to spend playing an MMO.
But that is YOUR decision. And it's a decision you're perfectly free to make. But that being said, it doesn't give you the right to reduce or undermine the results of others who are willing to pay more for an MMO than you are.
...see what I did there?
Bottom line is, it is all about a choice how you spend your time - want to play games from moms basement or working towards better life so you can afford things?
When you claim P2W, what you're really saying is that there are other things you value more highly than paying for an MMO and that those things are consuming so much of your money that you haven't much left to spend playing an MMO.
But that is YOUR decision. And it's a decision you're perfectly free to make. But that being said, it doesn't give you the right to reduce or undermine the results of others who are willing to pay more for an MMO than you are.
...see what I did there?
Bottom line is, it is all about a choice how you spend your time - want to play games from moms basement or working towards better life so you can afford things?
playing games IS working towards a better life.
maybe I dont get it because I jumped in late
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
When you claim P2W, what you're really saying is that there are other things you value more highly than paying for an MMO and that those things are consuming so much of your money that you haven't much left to spend playing an MMO.
But that is YOUR decision. And it's a decision you're perfectly free to make. But that being said, it doesn't give you the right to reduce or undermine the results of others who are willing to pay more for an MMO than you are.
...see what I did there?
Bottom line is, it is all about a choice how you spend your time - want to play games from moms basement or working towards better life so you can afford things?
Yeah. I see what you did there. You quoted me and altered what I said. That is NOT acceptable behavior.
But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money. Your alteration would only hold true if we all had the same amount of money, or even the ability to make the same amount of money. It is *because* we have the same amount of time overall that the differences in how we value that time have any meaning. Time does not equal money.
I play an MMORPG with no cash shop at all. Loving it, actually. ]
...indie MMO on the edge of death?
I really wish poeple would stop this shit
Sorry but it's the truth. I've been playing primarily indie MMOs for years and the ones currently on the market are in sad shape. Few people playing them, little money to continue improvements because nobody is playing them, they are just circling the drain at different rates.
Now there are indie games with varying levels of promise in development. But I would never make the claim that the MMO industry hasn't left me behind because there are games that I enjoy like Wurm on the market. I'd make that claim based on games like Star Citizen and Crowfall that still have a shot at becoming something.
Ultimately someone who sits back and says. "I haven't been left behind by the MMO market because of this sweet SWG EMU without a cash shop!" is someone who's going to have to content themselves with a game that will see little to no advancement.
I play an MMORPG with no cash shop at all. Loving it, actually. ]
...indie MMO on the edge of death?
I really wish poeple would stop this shit
Sorry but it's the truth. I've been playing primarily indie MMOs for years and the ones currently on the market are in sad shape. Few people playing them, little money to continue improvements because nobody is playing them, they are just circling the drain at different rates.
Now there are indie games with varying levels of promise in development. But I would never make the claim that the MMO industry hasn't left me behind because there are games that I enjoy like Wurm on the market. I'd make that claim based on games like Star Citizen and Crowfall that still have a shot at becoming something.
Here is the problem with your observation.
Wurm staff = 1 person and sometimes 3.
Overhead like that can be microscopic and still a huge success for the stakeholders. If he is making 5x more than he could as a developer working for a larger firm then its far from 'struggling'. Now that is point 1.
Point 2. I regularly play in circulation about 10 indie titles over the course of the last two year or so. I can think of only 2 that from a players perspective could be remotely called 'struggling'.
Lets take Wurm for an example: struggling? no not at all, no bugs that I am aware of tons of content more content then most mainstream MMOs so where is the 'struggle' exactly?
so really the whole 'indie struggle' is a fucking fake bullshit meme
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Wurm is really a game you aren't going to win that debate on. There are plenty of graphs circulating the Wurm community that show a steady decline in the number of WO player subs. Darkfall tends to rerelease every few years, then end up in a population crisis a year or two later. We'll see if RoA can break that cycle.
Really it's an aside debate. Indie MMOs are where you go when mainstream MMOs are utterly failing to provide what you want and so you would rather play a game developed and maintained by 1-3 people than deal with mainstream MMOs. It's a place for people who have been left behind by the MMO industry.
And currently, I'm not aware of any major MMOs that don't:
A. Have a cash shop. B. Have subscription granting items that can be bought for cash and then sold for in-game currency. (PLEX)
Anyone who doesn't agree with pay-to-win on some level has been left behind by the industry. Hell. Even most indie titles have less regulation on trading game currency for cash.
The fact that you still are trying to make some appeal to popularity argument.... Smh. And the attempt by Gdemami to equate time and money.. Yet another willfully ignorant fail.
And yet, I could also consider, exclusively, your appeal to popularity and dismantle the argument you're attempting to make with it as well without even leaving the realm of F2P itself... But of course, what good would that do?
I'll just leave a hint: correlation does not prove causation, and the popularity of F2P does not rest solely (or even primarily) on the idea of avoiding the monetization of content. The fact that I even have to point that out is depressing.
Lol. Appeal to popularity? Yes. Obviously. That's what I'm doing arguing against grinding in forums about an industry that has ran off practically everyone who doesn't love it, and is dying as a direct result of that.
You are...
Lets just suffice to say this argument isn't worth my time. Like I said. Have fun playing whatever MMO you refuse to name that supposedly isn't pay to win. Because games catered to you won't be coming out anymore no matter how many people like your absolutely insane statements.
You're obviously not even aware of what an argumentum ad populum is, by the content of your first paragraph.
I never refused to name an MMORPG. I'm currently playing VAnilla WoW, DAoC, and Foxhole (I'm still hesitant to classify Foxhole as a true MMORPG, though it certainly shares many of the persistence features that MMORPGs do). It's not relevant, though; you're using it as a straw man because you don't even have a clue what you're arguing for or against anymore; you're just raging against the machine, man.
I'm currently playing VAnilla WoW, DAoC, and Foxhole (I'm still hesitant to classify Foxhole as a true MMORPG, though it certainly shares many of the persistence features that MMORPGs do).
Ok. You got me there. Clearly not left behind by the market at all. Lmao.
You do you. Just have fun with the fact there won't be any more major MMOs made for the likes of you.
Tuor7 said: But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money.
...and where do you think those money come from?
They don't just happen, appear from nowhere, they represent time and effort we spent earning them.
I'm currently playing VAnilla WoW, DAoC, and Foxhole (I'm still hesitant to classify Foxhole as a true MMORPG, though it certainly shares many of the persistence features that MMORPGs do).
Ok. You got me there. Clearly not left behind by the market at all. Lmao.
And that changes the fact that you have a problem with the dominant themes of modern RPG video games, and that has absolutely nothing to do with monetization of MMORPGs... How, exactly?
Tuor7 said: But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money.
...and where do you think those money come from?
They don't just happen, appear from nowhere, they represent time and effort we spent making them.
Yea, because we all know that your own socioeconomic status is determined, in a vacuum, by how much time of your life you spend working. Everyone starts at the same spot... Oh wait.
You might want to pick up the pieces of your argument. They're all over the floor.
Yea, because we all know that your own socioeconomic status is determined, in a vacuum, by how much time of your life you spend working. Everyone starts at the same spot... Oh wait.
You might want to pick up the pieces of your argument. They're all over the floor.
One time loser, always loser... Sucks to have such perception and approach to life.
..or actually not, you not only deserve but indeed earned it.
Like said before, it is only a matter of choice how you spent your time - some decide to be losers, forever.
Ok. You got me there. Clearly not left behind by the market at all. Lmao.
And that changes the fact that you have a problem with the dominant themes of modern RPG video games, and that has absolutely nothing to do with monetization of MMORPGs... How, exactly?
Because developers don't give a crap that you feel like you've "earned" the right to be better than everyone else by running through rotations on trash mobs and delivering letters.
As I keep saying, nobody is willing to pay 15$ a month anymore to lose to basement dwellers. The only way they can continue to make money based on stat gap based games is to SELL people the upper hand of the stat gap.
They don't run a charity for people who want levels as participation trophies.
In 2017 there are two forms of successful online multiplayer games.
A. Games with pay to win elements (All current successful MMOs) B. Games that reduce or eliminate stat gaps (MOBAs, FPS games etc.)
No other successful games exist at the moment. Nobody cares what you feel you have earned. Nobody cares how much you love quest grinding. You want to see a successful MMO without pay-to-win again? It has to be a game that everyone feels they are getting their 15$ a month worth. That means no massive advantages for playing longer other than the opportunity to get better.
I'm currently playing VAnilla WoW, DAoC, and Foxhole (I'm still hesitant to classify Foxhole as a true MMORPG, though it certainly shares many of the persistence features that MMORPGs do).
Ok. You got me there. Clearly not left behind by the market at all. Lmao.
You do you. Just have fun with the fact there won't be any more major MMOs made for the likes of you.
I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. MMORPGs, and indeed all subgenres of RPGs, are going to continue to utilize vertical progression for the foreseeable future.
Yea, because we all know that your own socioeconomic status is determined, in a vacuum, by how much time of your life you spend working. Everyone starts at the same spot... Oh wait.
You might want to pick up the pieces of your argument. They're all over the floor.
One time loser, always loser... Sucks to be you.
..or actually not, you not only deserve but indeed earned it.
Good to have finally had you respond and confirm what I've seen from your responses to others in this forum: you have nothing useful to add. Your crypto-arguments aren't very effective.
I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. MMORPGs, and indeed all subgenres of RPGs, are going to continue to utilize vertical progression for the foreseeable future.
I'll content myself with the fact the highest budget MMO currently in development has no levels and I own a 400$ life-time-insured ship as well as ship that was worth 125$, and 80$ ship and a 40$ ground vehicle (All LTI as well). It's all cool though, I've made more selling ships in that game than I have invested in ships I haven't flipped so if it goes under tomorrow, no major loss.
Yea, because we all know that your own socioeconomic status is determined, in a vacuum, by how much time of your life you spend working. Everyone starts at the same spot... Oh wait.
You might want to pick up the pieces of your argument. They're all over the floor.
One time loser, always loser... Sucks to be you.
..or actually not, you not only deserve but indeed earned it.
Good to have finally had you respond and confirm what I've seen from your responses to others in this forum: you have nothing useful to add. Your crypto-arguments aren't very effective.
He's the most useless troll in these boards. His trolloling is ridiculous enough but when he actually says something we get a glimpse into a really fucked-up mind.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Levels are a participation trophy, plain and simple. It doesn't matter how well you do, as long as you show up you get the reward same as anyone else.
If you play a game longer then me, but you suck harder than me, you deserve to lose. You are the one who shouldn't be able to do the more difficult content. Period. End of story. Because if you've played longer and yet still suck harder, you've clearly done something wrong with your time.
Levels reward people who can't play games. And TBH I'm pretty sure that's why you are defending them so adamantly. Going to guess same is true for most the people liking your posts. Generally the strongest proponents of leveling are people who would be forced back into playing easy mode on single player games if they didn't have their stat crutches to prop them up.
Don't sit there and pretend like you've earned it, and don't compare you sitting there hitting "1, 2, 3, 4" and following the green arrows to your next quest objective is comparable to the efforts someone who has a real talent such as playing an instrument, painting, or playing a sport must go through to develop it.
Frankly, as someone who has played sports and gone home at the end of practice days or competitions feeling like I was going to puke because I worked so hard I find it laughable you would even compare the two.
Leveling is about an addiction to watching numbers go up from doing braindead level simple tasks. It's pretty much just a drug. And that's why you're argument is "appealing to popularism" so well. Coming on MMORPG.com and saying levels need to be abolished is like walking into a crack den and telling everyone they need to stop doing crack. Yes, I want to take your drug away, because this genre has so much more potential than catering to a bunch of addicts who want to mainline XP all day.
Yeah. There is talent in video games. It comes from top level players who work their butts off to earn it, not rotation cycling zombies in grindfest MMOs. Those are the bottom feeders of the gaming industry. It's practically a spectator sport. You might as well be watching TV.
Most hobbies kinda work the same way too. By far most people in their hobby just do a bit, some for long periods of time, others for less. But only a few really go far. Be it sports, music, painting, models...
Actually it is pretty much like that for every aspect of life. Most do the minimum required to get by.
For instance when you play sports everyone tends to go to practice for the same amount of time each day. The whole team is practicing X number of hours for X days a week. But among all those people doing the same general things for the same amount of time, some excel and some fall behind. Nobody can sit here and tell me that if a team practices together for the same amount of time they all end up equally skilled because it's simply not true.
That is a measure of effort. The people at the top give it their all. The people at the bottom do the minimum required to get by.
That doesn't really fit the "Hero's Journey" argument too. Remember the part in Star Wars were Luke ran around delivering messages to people and killing boars for a few hundred/thousand hours? Neither do I. A hero's journey should be difficult and and actually challenge you. Learning a skill based game and working hard to excel at it fits that description. Grinding does not.
Also. Just showing up really does tend to beat the encounter if you have a pulse. I can't remember the last time I was challenged by any level appropriate content I did in an MMO that wasn't PvP. Even most PvP against equally geared players is easy most times.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Bottom line is, it is all about a choice how you spend your time - want to play games from moms basement or working towards better life so you can afford things?
maybe I dont get it because I jumped in late
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yeah. I see what you did there. You quoted me and altered what I said. That is NOT acceptable behavior.
But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money. Your alteration would only hold true if we all had the same amount of money, or even the ability to make the same amount of money. It is *because* we have the same amount of time overall that the differences in how we value that time have any meaning. Time does not equal money.
Now there are indie games with varying levels of promise in development. But I would never make the claim that the MMO industry hasn't left me behind because there are games that I enjoy like Wurm on the market. I'd make that claim based on games like Star Citizen and Crowfall that still have a shot at becoming something.
Ultimately someone who sits back and says. "I haven't been left behind by the MMO market because of this sweet SWG EMU without a cash shop!" is someone who's going to have to content themselves with a game that will see little to no advancement.
Wurm staff = 1 person and sometimes 3.
Overhead like that can be microscopic and still a huge success for the stakeholders. If he is making 5x more than he could as a developer working for a larger firm then its far from 'struggling'. Now that is point 1.
Point 2. I regularly play in circulation about 10 indie titles over the course of the last two year or so. I can think of only 2 that from a players perspective could be remotely called 'struggling'.
Lets take Wurm for an example: struggling? no not at all, no bugs that I am aware of tons of content more content then most mainstream MMOs so where is the 'struggle' exactly?
so really the whole 'indie struggle' is a fucking fake bullshit meme
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Really it's an aside debate. Indie MMOs are where you go when mainstream MMOs are utterly failing to provide what you want and so you would rather play a game developed and maintained by 1-3 people than deal with mainstream MMOs. It's a place for people who have been left behind by the MMO industry.
And currently, I'm not aware of any major MMOs that don't:
A. Have a cash shop.
B. Have subscription granting items that can be bought for cash and then sold for in-game currency. (PLEX)
Anyone who doesn't agree with pay-to-win on some level has been left behind by the industry. Hell. Even most indie titles have less regulation on trading game currency for cash.
And yet, I could also consider, exclusively, your appeal to popularity and dismantle the argument you're attempting to make with it as well without even leaving the realm of F2P itself... But of course, what good would that do?
I'll just leave a hint: correlation does not prove causation, and the popularity of F2P does not rest solely (or even primarily) on the idea of avoiding the monetization of content. The fact that I even have to point that out is depressing.
You are...
Lets just suffice to say this argument isn't worth my time. Like I said. Have fun playing whatever MMO you refuse to name that supposedly isn't pay to win. Because games catered to you won't be coming out anymore no matter how many people like your absolutely insane statements.
I never refused to name an MMORPG. I'm currently playing VAnilla WoW, DAoC, and Foxhole (I'm still hesitant to classify Foxhole as a true MMORPG, though it certainly shares many of the persistence features that MMORPGs do). It's not relevant, though; you're using it as a straw man because you don't even have a clue what you're arguing for or against anymore; you're just raging against the machine, man.
I self identify as a monkey.
Ok. You got me there. Clearly not left behind by the market at all. Lmao.
You do you. Just have fun with the fact there won't be any more major MMOs made for the likes of you.
They don't just happen, appear from nowhere, they represent time and effort we spent earning them.
You might want to pick up the pieces of your argument. They're all over the floor.
..or actually not, you not only deserve but indeed earned it.
Like said before, it is only a matter of choice how you spent your time - some decide to be losers, forever.
As I keep saying, nobody is willing to pay 15$ a month anymore to lose to basement dwellers. The only way they can continue to make money based on stat gap based games is to SELL people the upper hand of the stat gap.
They don't run a charity for people who want levels as participation trophies.
In 2017 there are two forms of successful online multiplayer games.
A. Games with pay to win elements (All current successful MMOs)
B. Games that reduce or eliminate stat gaps (MOBAs, FPS games etc.)
No other successful games exist at the moment. Nobody cares what you feel you have earned. Nobody cares how much you love quest grinding. You want to see a successful MMO without pay-to-win again? It has to be a game that everyone feels they are getting their 15$ a month worth. That means no massive advantages for playing longer other than the opportunity to get better.
So which non-pay-to-win MMO are you waiting on?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED