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"The Pantheon Difference" (from the official Pantheon website)

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  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,022
    All I want to say is I hope at some point all the posters here get a chance to play together.  Would be awesome to group up with you guys/ladies in a random group :smile:  
    AeliousDistopiadrivendawndcutbi001
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,920
    All I want to say is I hope at some point all the posters here get a chance to play together.  Would be awesome to group up with you guys/ladies in a random group :smile:  
    Or maybe drag a train to zone through your dungeon group. ;)
    DistopiadrivendawnMrMelGibsondcutbi001

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    edited July 2017
    Distopia said:
    svann said:
    Distopia said:
    Kilsin said:


    In my personal experience, I have always interpreted it as being able to create and play alts without limitations/restrictions and I base my experience on a wide range of games over the years (like most of us) but I am mainly referring to EQ and VG. Both of those games allowed me to create alts with little to no restrictions, so in my mind, they were alt friendly, 

    When I think "friendly" be it casual friendly, solo friendly, Alt friendly. I think there's an abundance of game to enjoy for those people, a truly worth while experience where you're not going to be left wanting more. Because if that's not true those people would be better off in another game. 

    Alt friendly just seems to logically suggest that alts are a worthwhile practice to get into. Yet that's really not the case if the design itself requires lots of progression to get to the best parts of the game, be it dungeons, PVP, or what have you.
     The entire journey should be fun not just the end game, and from what I hear Pantheon is aiming for that.  So because the entire game is fun (beginning, middle and end) it should be just as fun to start a new character since he doesnt necessarily have to get to end game to have fun.




    Let's put it this way, a game like ESO as it is now offers what you're saying, because nothing at all is behind a progression wall. Not even it's expansions/DLC. So it's really not problematic to split your focus across many things. You can do anything you want at any time. 

    When hard progression gates are in play all of that changes. You have set areas to play in, those areas will have different content options, yes, but it's all tied into progression, especially if it's a gear based game. You'll be worthless for groups if you're not keeping your character up to the standards required to tackle the next tier of content. ALl of this implies grind. The more of that there is the less alt friendly it is by default. 

    Hence why I asked the question I did, because rather than argue about the subjective meanings of terms, we might as well get to the important point... Is pantheon a constant game of progression, will it be a constant game of progression going forward? Put another way: Is the goal here a game of soft caps that constantly rise in height as well as challenge or hard caps that aren't so hard to reach? that seems to be the real question that started this debate.  


    Thats fine.   But if you are really interested in whether there will always be more progression for your main character quit trying to frame that question as whether the game is alt friendly.  Just ask whether there will always be new progression for your main.

    Answer: No one knows.  Not even the devs!  Im sure they hope that there is always enough new content to keep mains striving, but that is a hard bill to fill.  Some people just seem to complete the content faster than it can be created.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    svann said:

    Thats fine.   But if you are really interested in whether there will always be more progression for your main character quit trying to frame that question as whether the game is alt friendly.  Just ask whether there will always be new progression for your main.

    Answer: No one knows.  Not even the devs!  Im sure they hope that there is always enough new content to keep mains striving, but that is a hard bill to fill.  Some people just seem to complete the content faster than it can be created.
    Well the debate before was more or less subjective on what constitutes an "Alt-friendly" environment or design. Hence the points I offered on that as many others have. I just figured I'd break it down to the answerable question posed (which by now they should at the very least know the basic premise of how they will handle progression in this game). So while the points were related they were meant to be separate. In an attempt to end the back and forth. 
    Torval

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Kyleran said:
    All I want to say is I hope at some point all the posters here get a chance to play together.  Would be awesome to group up with you guys/ladies in a random group :smile:  
    Or maybe drag a train to zone through your dungeon group. ;)
    The MMORPG.com express?
    drivendawnKyleranMrMelGibson

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,127
    Well I can see both sides of the argument here. Alt friendly can mean ease of lvling said alts or what devs. put in place content wise to make lvling alts fun and not same old experience as the first time or both.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    This thread has really devolved into a sad display of mental gymnastics.

    If you can create a new character, but have nothing new to explore or achieve, its a huge stretch to call such a game alt-friendly. A game with a huge open world and unique content for every race is definitely alt-friendly.

    As such EQ and Vanguard were the pinnacle of alt-friendly, and it seems Pantheon is being created in a similar fashion.

    Let's also stop pretending that because some progression is "gated" that it somehow prevents you from enjoying a new experience, with new content. After all, every game is gated behind levels or some construct. Just because a level 1 can't go to that end game dungeon and slay monsters, doesn't mean there isn't something fun that character can partake in. This line of reasoning is intellectually dishonest and misinformation.
    KyleranKilsinRhoklawdcutbi001Gyva02


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    This thread has really devolved into a sad display of mental gymnastics.

    If you can create a new character, but have nothing new to explore or achieve, its a huge stretch to call such a game alt-friendly. A game with a huge open world and unique content for every race is definitely alt-friendly.

    As such EQ and Vanguard were the pinnacle of alt-friendly, and it seems Pantheon is being created in a similar fashion.

    Let's also stop pretending that because some progression is "gated" that it somehow prevents you from enjoying a new experience, with new content. After all, every game is gated behind levels or some construct. Just because a level 1 can't go to that end game dungeon and slay monsters, doesn't mean there isn't something fun that character can partake in. This line of reasoning is intellectually dishonest and misinformation.
    Uhg gotta love when folks come in acting like they're speaking facts on subjective matters and in turn call others intellectually dishonest. 
    ste2000Torval

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    Dullahan said:
    This thread has really devolved into a sad display of mental gymnastics.

    If you can create a new character, but have nothing new to explore or achieve, its a huge stretch to call such a game alt-friendly. A game with a huge open world and unique content for every race is definitely alt-friendly.

    As such EQ and Vanguard were the pinnacle of alt-friendly, and it seems Pantheon is being created in a similar fashion.

    Let's also stop pretending that because some progression is "gated" that it somehow prevents you from enjoying a new experience, with new content. After all, every game is gated behind levels or some construct. Just because a level 1 can't go to that end game dungeon and slay monsters, doesn't mean there isn't something fun that character can partake in. This line of reasoning is intellectually dishonest and misinformation.
    I think that is what resonates with me the most, the "replayability" so to speak, if you can experience something new on a different character (different class/race) that you missed the first time around then to me personally, that is alt-friendly. I don't personally see how alt-friendly = easy power level to max level, that is just called power levelling and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is (end game, raiding, PvP, battlegrounds etc.).

    But again, I think it comes down to personal opinion, many seem to be divided on what it means to them and no one can link to hard evidence of their being a strict definition of the phrase so it is left to each individual to interpret in their own way leaving it as an unwinnable argument on either side of the fence but I want to make it clear that Pantheon won't have an easy levelling curve, it will be slow and challenging and we intend to fill the game from 1-50 with as much meaningful content as possible to give a different experience each time someone levels a character, keeping in mind we will have a Progeny system (think Remort for MUDs), which is essentially a new main character or alt every time you decide to Progeny at max level, if people choose to use that system at all :)
    drivendawnDistopiadcutbi001Gyva02

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
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  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,022
    Kyleran said:
    All I want to say is I hope at some point all the posters here get a chance to play together.  Would be awesome to group up with you guys/ladies in a random group :smile:  
    Or maybe drag a train to zone through your dungeon group. ;)
    You could do that to lol.  Afterwords, maybe we can hang out in game :wink:
    Distopia
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Kilsin said:
    I want to make it clear that Pantheon won't have an easy levelling curve, it will be slow and challenging and we intend to fill the game from 1-50 with as much meaningful content as possible to give a different experience each time someone levels a character, keeping in mind we will have a Progeny system (think Remort for MUDs), which is essentially a new main character or alt every time you decide to Progeny at max level, if people choose to use that system at all :)
    I think that's all anyone really wanted to hear, considering that's what the old school crowd has been clamoring for, for years now ( a slower pace).  Because most games do just put you on a beeline toward the end, if they even have anything worthwhile to play for at the end (well designed raids, dungeons, PVP). 




    dcutbi001Gyva02

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Dullahan said:
    This thread has really devolved into a sad display of mental gymnastics.

    If you can create a new character, but have nothing new to explore or achieve, its a huge stretch to call such a game alt-friendly. A game with a huge open world and unique content for every race is definitely alt-friendly.

    As such EQ and Vanguard were the pinnacle of alt-friendly, and it seems Pantheon is being created in a similar fashion.

    EQ and Vanguard the Pinnacle of "Alt Friendly"?
    Not only "Alt Friendly" but also the PINNACLE....Now I heard it all.
    That's coming from the same person who thought that EQ was also the pinnacle of PvP...and then you have the guts to accuse people of sad display of mental gymnastic.
    You really have a funny way to categorize games, you might want to be more cautious with your statements if you want to be taken seriously.

    You are repeating what Kilsin is saying, not understanding what the issue is, so I wll keep repeating myself as it seems some people do not read my posts.
    I already answered your objection, most people understood the point, try to make an effort.
    It is not just about difficulty of the game but how the game is designed.
    With the Progeny system the game actively invites you to play the same character, making the need to create Alts almost redundant.
    Anyway that's another chance to read what I said.

    ste2000 said:

    Basically you are describing almost any MMORPG out there, making them all "Alt Friendly", therefore the definition loses its purpose.
    Since you seems to have such a loose concept of the word "Friendly" we might as well claim that Pantheon is "Solo Friendly", "Casual Friendly", "Sandbox Friendly" and "PvP Friendly"... I mean why not?
    Anything can be done in the game in one way or the other, let's just call Pantheon "THE Friendly Game" shall we?

    Seriously though, you wouldn't say Pantheon is "Solo Friendly" even if we all know that you can Solo, and even though it is not as efficient as playing in Group.
    So why you say Pantheon is "Alt Friendly" only because it is possible to make and level few Alts?
    Just because the game is NOT "Alt Unfriendly" doesn't make it automatically "Alt Friendly", the same can be said for games that are NOT "Solo Unfriendly" doesn't make the game suddenly "Solo Friendly" there is also a "Neutral" Stance in between which is where Pantheon sits in both cases.
    On top of that, Pantheon has also a Progeny System which clearly invites you to keep playing the same character, so claiming that Pantheon is "Alt Friendly" makes even less sense.


    Post edited by ste2000 on
    DistopiaTorval

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,097
    edited July 2017
    Yeah I was looking at backing this game too, but I am not sure about it I haven't really hard much about it and I hear more about "Ashes OF Creation" and "Crow Fall" than I do anything else, not to really say anything negative about this game because I can't think of anything yet, but I would like to see a lot more info and game-play before backing another game and id likely at least go for the $250 pack.

    And I am a whale + I wish I could afford the $10,000 pack right off simply because I like cosmetic items, and my old games accounts had no inventory space left because the inventory was filled full of cosmetic items before I quit lol.
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Kilsin said:

    I think that is what resonates with me the most, the "replayability" so to speak, if you can experience something new on a different character (different class/race) that you missed the first time around then to me personally, that is alt-friendly. I don't personally see how alt-friendly = easy power level to max level, that is just called power levelling
    That shows that you really have problem with gaming terminology.
    Power Leveling doesn't mean  what you just described, at all.
    Power Leveling means that the character has been given an external boost either by other players or by powerful gear (Twinking), which allows the character to accelerate the speed of leveling in an articial way than initially designed for its level.
    There is a NORMAL leveling curve which is the speed the game is originally designed for that specific Level (it can be easy or hard,it doesn't matter), then there is the POWER leveling curve wich artificially alters the Normal speed of leveling and it is made possible by Twinking your character or getting help from more powerful Players.

    Kilsin said:
    ... and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is (end game, raiding, PvP, battlegrounds etc.).

    You just described what "Alt Friendly" means for most people.
    When you claim that the game is "Alt Friendly" you need to understand that's what most people think about, whether you like it or not.

    Post edited by ste2000 on
    Distopia

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited July 2017
    ste2000 said:


    Kilsin said:
    ... and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is (end game, raiding, PvP, battlegrounds etc.).

    You just described what "Alt Friendly" means for most people.
    When you claim that the game is "Alt Friendly" you need to understand that's what most people think about, whether you like it or not.

    Yeah I have to agree there. Because the term is certainly a more modern thing, which has been the only way the constant progression oriented player can truly get their fix (by leveling alts). Which was a direct result of the short and easy curves these games offered over the last so many years. Hence why it became a buzz word to begin with.

    Considering that... in the end we're all really saying the same thing because it is all relative. If you look for varied starting places many modern games have that, be it SWTOR (which has 8 different paths to climb all offering a unique storyline), GW2 has distinct racial areas, ESO has it's realm based PVE set up, AOC  had it's racial areas,  so on and so forth.

    Most of these games also have very quick leveling curves (the only exception may be ESO there, as it did have a steeper curve than most recent MMOs), All of these factors are what make it ideal to play all options available to get the most bang for your buck in such games (hence they're alt-friendly). IF you want a truly longterm experience, for that you might as well say Alt-Necessary. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    ste2000 said:
    Kilsin said:

    I think that is what resonates with me the most, the "replayability" so to speak, if you can experience something new on a different character (different class/race) that you missed the first time around then to me personally, that is alt-friendly. I don't personally see how alt-friendly = easy power level to max level, that is just called power levelling
    That shows that you really have problem with gaming terminology.
    Power Leveling doesn't mean  what you just described, at all.
    Power Leveling means that the character has been given an external boost either by other players or by powerful gear (Twinking), which allows him to accelerate the speed of leveling in an articial way than initially designed for its level.

    Kilsin said:
    ... and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is (end game, raiding, PvP, battlegrounds etc.).

    You just described what "Alt Friendly" means for most people.
    When you claim that the game is "Alt Friendly" you need to understand that's what most people think about, whether you like it or not.

    I politely asked you to link me the definitive terminology, if you can point me to where it is written in stone what "alt-friendly" means and not just argue in favour of your own opinion/preference then I would be happy to read up and change my views, but until you show me something, I won't be arguing with you over opinions, my friend.

    Twinking = Helping a lower level character by giving them higher level and more powerful weapons/armour/buffs to make it easier for them

    Power Levelling = Powering your way to max level as fast and efficiently as possible

    Alts are not defined by either of these things, they are alternate characters to play when and how you see fit.

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
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  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Kilsin said:

    I politely asked you to link me the definitive terminology, if you can point me to where it is written in stone what "alt-friendly" means and not just argue in favour of your own opinion/preference then I would be happy to read up and change my views, but until you show me something, I won't be arguing with you over opinions, my friend.

    Twinking = Helping a lower level character by giving them higher level and more powerful weapons/armour/buffs to make it easier for them

    Power Levelling = Powering your way to max level as fast and efficiently as possible

    Alts are not defined by either of these things, they are alternate characters to play when and how you see fit.
    Don't hide behind the "set in stones" argument, we all know you won't find any of those expressions set in stones in any vocabulary as this is new terminology, this is about what MOST (with emphasis on MOST) people perceive the meaning of those words means, and I made that pretty clear few times in my posts.
    "Alt Friendly" is used massively in the WoW comunity to describe that specific gameplay of "Collecting" Alts, these people are called "Althoholics" (yes they have an actual name) and are a huge portion of WoW player base.
    When you claim Pantheon is "Alt Friendly" you will spark the interest of these people, which they will then turn against the game in their Millions (yes they are quite a few) when they find out the game is not actually "Alt Friendly", creating the negativity that you want to avoid so much.

    I am actually doing you a favor, but of course you can keep calling Pantheon "Alt Friendly" if you want, as there is no "set in stone" definition for it, don't be surprised then few years down the line when the forums will be flooded with vitriolic comments and you ask yourself why.
    I am telling you now the why.


    The power-leveling eplanation is much more defined as you actually got it completely wrong as you claimed that a game designed with fast leveling in mind  it's called Power Leveling:

    Kilsin said:

    easy power level to max level, that is just called power levelling and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is
    And I explained to you, that power leveling is something that happens outside the game design and it's player induced:

    ste2000 said:

    Power Leveling means that the character has been given an external boost either by other players or by powerful gear (Twinking), which allows the character to accelerate the speed of leveling in an articial way than initially designed for its level.
    There is a NORMAL leveling curve which is the speed the game is originally designed for that specific Level (it can be easy or hard, it doesn't matter), then there is the POWER leveling curve which artificially alters the Normal speed of leveling and it is made possible by Twinking your character or getting help from more powerful Players.


    This is actually more black and white than the "Alt Friendly" interpretation, and it shouldn't be up for discussion at all, but I am sure you will find a way to continue arguing about that as well, you can play the "set in stones" card again, why not.

    Post edited by ste2000 on

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    edited July 2017
    Wizardry said:
    Yeah i have read the Pantheon information a couple times,it does look to have potential,at least on paper.Talk is cheap though,i really hope they can do the game justice as i am dying to make a new game home for several years.
    As to resisting elements,i have seen this in action within Gorgon and i have to say i am not a fan of that design choice at least not as it is implemented in Gorgon.I feel it needs to be toned down,getting frost bite within seconds in a game where you are pretty much FORCED to that zone instead of having other choices is not a good design choice.

    Example if we hit say level 40 and the only place to go at 40 is a cold zone that requires all special gear,i am not a fan.I am a fan if the game has several options for groups or players,like maybe a hot zone,cold zone, often raining zone,often windy zone all of which may effect certain abilities and spells and accuracy.
    Point being like i always state,i want stuff to make sense,i don't want forced zones,i want to feel like it is my adventure my world and not a predetermined set of choices.
    I wouldn't refer to Project Gorgon as an "ideal" implementation for a number of things. I've tried it a few times, and a number of things feel arbitrary in their implementation. There's this kind of "only half serious" vibe I get from PG. So... yeah... 

    But anyway... back to Pantheon...

    It seems to me that Brad and Co. are putting more time and thought into these systems, and their execution. Will they require tweaking and adjusting over time? Of course they will. I think anyone who's been playing MMOs for any amount of time should *expect* that to be the case - nothing in a MMO is 'perfect' out of the gate. But, I think they can at least make it interesting, and feel 'natural' to the world... not tacked on as a "gits and shiggles" thing.

    One of my favorite things in there is that reputation will matter. That is something that's been utterly gutted in the world of "dungeon finders" and "cross-server grouping". Beyond being kicked from the group, there's no real repercussions for someone being an ass to everyone else around them.

    In my experiences playing Lineage 2 and FFXI, having a reputation on your server could have a profound impact on your experience, whether people wanted you in their groups or not, whether you'd be able to get help with content you needed. It all came back to your reputation as a player, moreso in personality than in skill. Most people were happy to help a less than great player. Almost no one wanted to deal with an insufferable jerk.

    I remember a few people on my server in FFXI having to move to a different server because they'd completely destroyed their reputation for being an a-hole, and no one wanted anything to do with them. There were others whose names you just *knew* because of their reputation, and they were known server-wide as being a cool person.

    Some rose to almost celebrity status, and it was cool to see them out and about in your travels. 

    The same thing happened in Lineage 2... player reputation went a very long way, to the extent that even members of an enemy clan/guild would go out of their way to befriend and even help out a person if were known as being a cool person on the server. There was another person on my server in L2 who was hated by literally everyone. If there was one person who could bring the entire server together in unity, just to take them down.. it was this one person. 

    You're a cool person, an at least capable player and get along well with your group-mates? You'll have little trouble finding groups, and may well even be actively sought out by others who want you, specifically, in their group. You're an a-hole who goes out of their way to be a jerk and a hindrance to all who cross your path, or are otherwise relentlessly annoying in some way (begging for money, complaining constantly, etc)? Good luck getting anyone to do anything with you. Rolling an alt only went so far, because if you're the same jerk behind a different avatar, eventually people figure it out.

    For example, one time in FFXI, I was in a group and we'd just lost a DPS, so we needed another one. The leader says "well there's a Black Mage seeking in Jeuno", we asked their name (because who they were actually mattered) and, upon hearing the name - 4 of us all said "No!" almost in unison. We'd never grouped together before, but each had run-ins with this person, and they were an insufferable ass in every case. They were one of those people who would eventually end up leaving the server to start over somewhere else because they'd screwed themselves over so badly.

    In this way, player reputation also really helped to make a server feel like a true community. They weren't just anonymous people you randomly queued up with in a dungeon, and would never see again.. They were people you'd likely run into a lot on the server, and could form friendships and alliances with... or rivalries. Finally, players who believe "if you want community, join a guild" will see what us "old timers" are talking about when we talk about missing that sense of server Community in a MMORPG. If they pull it off, and reputation really does matter in meaningful ways, it should be revived in Pantheon. 

    -fingers crossed-
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 424
    Kyleran said:
    All I want to say is I hope at some point all the posters here get a chance to play together.  Would be awesome to group up with you guys/ladies in a random group :smile:  
    Or maybe drag a train to zone through your dungeon group. ;)
    lol!

    "Zone!"
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    "When you claim that the game is "Alt Friendly" you need to understand that's what most people think about, whether you like it or not."

    Not only do most people in this thread disagree with your definition, but now the dev does too. 

    Kilsindcutbi001
  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Actually, I was tired when I made my last comment, and don't feel like reading all the comments since then.  But it did occur to me that there is no standard definition of "Alt Friendly".  I don't believe you will find it any dictionaries anyway.  Not really interested in debating this topic further.  Just thought I'd throw that out there.
    drivendawnKilsin
    Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,537
    edited July 2017
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:
    Kilsin said:

    I think that is what resonates with me the most, the "replayability" so to speak, if you can experience something new on a different character (different class/race) that you missed the first time around then to me personally, that is alt-friendly. I don't personally see how alt-friendly = easy power level to max level, that is just called power levelling
    That shows that you really have problem with gaming terminology.
    Power Leveling doesn't mean  what you just described, at all.
    Power Leveling means that the character has been given an external boost either by other players or by powerful gear (Twinking), which allows him to accelerate the speed of leveling in an articial way than initially designed for its level.

    Kilsin said:
    ... and shows that the games levelling curve is too easy and some companies do this intentionally when they want you to feel instant gratification and rush you to where they think the action is (end game, raiding, PvP, battlegrounds etc.).

    You just described what "Alt Friendly" means for most people.
    When you claim that the game is "Alt Friendly" you need to understand that's what most people think about, whether you like it or not.

    I politely asked you to link me the definitive terminology, if you can point me to where it is written in stone what "alt-friendly" means and not just argue in favour of your own opinion/preference then I would be happy to read up and change my views, but until you show me something, I won't be arguing with you over opinions, my friend.

    Twinking = Helping a lower level character by giving them higher level and more powerful weapons/armour/buffs to make it easier for them

    Power Levelling = Powering your way to max level as fast and efficiently as possible

    Alts are not defined by either of these things, they are alternate characters to play when and how you see fit.
    I think that since you introduced the term "alt-friendly" to the conversation, the onus is on you to state what you mean, @Kilsin.  Since you challenged other members to define the term you're using, it becomes an example of vagueness.  State what you mean and strive to minimize the number of ways your statement can be interpreted.  Don't forget that there's always the option to not say anything at all.

    When I saw the term "alt-friendly" I thought of ways VR might implement to pass equipment to alternative characters.  Shared-bank slots / storage, in-game e-mail capable of attaching items / money, etc.   Creating an alternate character has far more implications that just "replayability" -- there's also extending single character storage limitations (mules) and enabling a player to circumvent game limits, such as crafting.

    If the game provides so many official ways to bypass elements of the game design, how solid are those design decisions in the first place?  Alts were (or became) an accepted way to cheat.  One hundred bank slots not enough?  Create an alt.  Want to craft an item that requires an component made with another craft?  Create an alt.  Class restricted crafts, like EQ1's shaman and rogue, or restricted crafting, like LotRO, both encourage creation of single-purpose alts that only allow a single player to do everything they need for themselves.

    Nothing about "alt-friendly" suggests that it is also "group- or community-friendly."  People loot all the items because 'their alt needs that'.  Instead of a character buying an item from another player, they pass the components to an alt and build the item themselves.  Neither situation involves the larger community and doesn't promote player interaction.

    So, tell me again how Pantheon is supposed to encourage community development when there's a mechanism (or more than one) that lets each player control a hoard of alts that effectively makes them completely self-sufficient?  That sounds distinctly like a solo-oriented game, not in line with how Pantheon is being promoted.

    VR is definitely sending mixed messages by not being concise.


    Edit to remove duplicate quotation.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    This thread has really devolved into a sad display of mental gymnastics.

    If you can create a new character, but have nothing new to explore or achieve, its a huge stretch to call such a game alt-friendly. A game with a huge open world and unique content for every race is definitely alt-friendly.

    As such EQ and Vanguard were the pinnacle of alt-friendly, and it seems Pantheon is being created in a similar fashion.

    EQ and Vanguard the Pinnacle of "Alt Friendly"?
    Not only "Alt Friendly" but also the PINNACLE....Now I heard it all.
    That's coming from the same person who thought that EQ was also the pinnacle of PvP...

    Skewing my words only makes your argument look more specious.


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Dullahan said:
    ste2000 said:

    EQ and Vanguard the Pinnacle of "Alt Friendly"?
    Not only "Alt Friendly" but also the PINNACLE....Now I heard it all.
    That's coming from the same person who thought that EQ was also the pinnacle of PvP...

    Skewing my words only makes your argument look more specious.
    Skewing your words.....

    Dullahan said:

    As such EQ and Vanguard were the pinnacle of alt-friendly, and it seems Pantheon is being created in a similar fashion.


    Your words not mine.




    Torval

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    edited July 2017
    Why all the hate for alts?  Now you think the alts are gonna take yer loot?
    In my experience in _current_ EQ people are polite enough to not ask for loot for alts unless no one in the group needs it.  If you are blaming alts for the woes of wow then I think your hatred is misplaced.
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