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"The Pantheon Difference" (from the official Pantheon website)

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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,528
    edited July 2017
    Wizardry said:
    Why do people still use the term GRIND?Life is a grind,role playing is a life...guess what,need i say more?
    If something is FUN to play,who cares how long it takes or lasts?I am pretty sure if some money tree started to drop money at your feet,you wouldn't be saying ..."oh man this is a grind picking up all this money".
    if it is BORING,then that is the problem and NOT the grind or grindy design,if it's fun it could take a year and it won't matter.
    Super Mario Galaxy, Sonic the Hedgehog, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Arcade with four players, or Final Fantasy VII are fun as hell for me to play through.  But that doesn't mean I want to play through them more than oh, twice or so. Maybe three times.  Five times if the game is super awesome and has lots of different ways to play through it.  Maybe I'll come back to them after a year or more or so, too.  How many people are still replaying Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild, after finishing it the first time or maybe replaying and finishing it three times? (not including new content like the new DLC, of course.  That's not "replaying", obviously).

    Unfortunately, because developers can produce content only so fast, even MMORPGs people might consider to NOT be grindy ask you to repeat the same thing a lot more than that, as they want players to continue playing your game (which is especially important for a subscription game, but also still important for F2P games too to encourage the whales to keep spending)

    You can make the funnest MMORPG in the world but almost all (almost) people are still going to get sick of playing the same content in it eventually (IE, grinding).  The key is to strike a good balance between how often one must grind before they either can move on to new higher level content or get their rat pellets (or both.  Typically both are required after enough grind, too) and hopefully the developers have enough resources to keep developing the new content and rat pellets in pace with the players.  How much of this balance a person is able to tolerate is of course heavily based on how fun it is, but again, you can be the funnest game in the world but people will still eventually need to move on.

    Of course, it also varies from player to player but most people tend to hover around a median.

    (note:  As an aside, PvP inherently can be very different every time you play it which is why PvP games don't need a grind to keep players playing them, but only if your PvP is good, which most MMORPGs just aren't designed for compared to alternative options like MOBAs, FPS games, or fighting games)
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    ste2000 said:
    I hope there will be a decent grind and a very long levelling process. It would be unfortunate if Pantheon turned into yet another MMO with an easily attainable level cap like all the themeparks out there.

    If Pantheon is going to be Alt friendly it means that leveling will be fast, simple as that.
    So I kinda lost almost my interest right there.

    Alts are a by-products of fast leveling and poor end game.
    Games that are Alt friendly are generally fast paced and pretty shallow, so if that's the way Pantheon is heading I am going to move on something else.

    I am getting used being disappointed by now, that's just another one on my long list.

    I know I'm a fanboi for saying this, but this is why I Feel SWG (and EVE) are the only games to handle the whole idea of progression and endgame well. While in SWG leveling (skilling up) wasn't long, it's one of the few games where 1 character slot worked well. It only had a few reasons to create an alt account, and all them were related to endgame jobs. it's also one of the few games where 90% of it took place at "endgame". Because it had actual jobs to build toward at endgame. Be it crafting,  Doctoring, Entertaining, PVPing, Bhing, Weapon slicing, etc...  


    ste2000

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Distopia said:
    ste2000 said:


    I know I'm a fanboi for saying this, but this is why I Feel SWG (and EVE) are the only games to handle the whole idea of progression and endgame well. While in SWG leveling (skilling up) wasn't long, it's one of the few games where 1 character slot worked well. It only had a few reasons to create an alt account, and all them were related to endgame jobs. it's also one of the few games where 90% of it took place at "endgame". Because it had actual jobs to build toward at endgame. Be it crafting,  Doctoring, Entertaining, PVPing, Bhing, Weapon slicing, etc...  


    Yep that's also my point.
    Not only SWG or EvE but also EQ and Vanilla WoW were games where it was difficult to have more than 2-3 Alts and that would take years (unless you boxed), they weren't "Alt friendly" games, but it was still possible to have Alts if you put enough dedication in it.

    A good MMORPG, particularly an Old School one, shouldn't rely too much on the Alt System to increase its Longevity.
    For me "Alt Friendly" equal poor/lazy design, usually combined with fast leveling.
    Pantheon is not supposed to be that kind of stuff.
    If it is, I wish them good luck, but I am not gonna be part of it.

    Distopia

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,728
    ste2000 said:
    Distopia said:
    ste2000 said:


    I know I'm a fanboi for saying this, but this is why I Feel SWG (and EVE) are the only games to handle the whole idea of progression and endgame well. While in SWG leveling (skilling up) wasn't long, it's one of the few games where 1 character slot worked well. It only had a few reasons to create an alt account, and all them were related to endgame jobs. it's also one of the few games where 90% of it took place at "endgame". Because it had actual jobs to build toward at endgame. Be it crafting,  Doctoring, Entertaining, PVPing, Bhing, Weapon slicing, etc...  


    Yep that's also my point.
    Not only SWG or EvE but also EQ and Vanilla WoW were games where it was difficult to have more than 2-3 Alts and that would take years (unless you boxed), they weren't "Alt friendly" games, but it was still possible to have Alts if you put enough dedication in it.

    A good MMORPG, particularly an Old School one, shouldn't rely too much on the Alt System to increase its Longevity.
    For me "Alt Friendly" equal poor/lazy design, usually combined with fast leveling.
    Pantheon is not supposed to be that kind of stuff.
    If it is, I wish them good luck, but I am not gonna be part of it.

    I agree.

    I think alt system is a good tool for increasing longevity for those players who actually like to play more characters, but for people like me who always play only one character and their aim is to craft it to perfection and to progress as far as possible, it is completely useless.

    The way progression will be handled in Pantheon will be the determinant of whether it will be my new game or not.
  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    edited July 2017
    The ideas planned for Pantheon sound cool to me. 

    Obviously, there is no way to please everyone.  Everyone has their own individual likes and dislikes.  Not everyone likes everything about this world, but we all to live in it.

    In order to create an interesting virtual world, I believe the important thing is to attempt to make that world as realistic, complex*, and internally consistent as possible.  And any activities players are asked to undertake in an mmorpg should be judged by the following:  a) how interesting, important, and/or challenging they are and b) how well they simulate realistic activity.  Tabletop rpgs, from which videogame rpgs and mmorpgs were born, were first created in order to help people experience what it would be like to live and adventure in a fantasy world.  All the systems and mechanics are just a means to that end.  Imo.  Not everything players do in tabletop rpgs is fun, convenient, or easy.  But usually everything they do is either interesting, important/necessary, or challenging.

    The desire to make things easier or more convenient, indiviual players wanting a game tailored to his or her personal tastes, and trying to tell developers how to accomplish these things is part of what ruined so many mmorpgs.

    (Btw, I read all the comments in this thread so far.)

    The features mentioned in the OP sound interesting to me.  Enough so that I would play it right now if I could.  I have not yet experienced all these things together in an mmorpg, and I would like to.

    Also, Alt friendly can just mean I can't do and see everything in the game by playing one character.  It doesn't mean that playing one character to max level won't be time consuming.  The important factor to me, if I chose to play an alt, is how different the experience might be the second time I played through the game.

    *EDIT:  I do think some things can be more complex than they need to be in game (though we rarely see that), but other things can be made more simplistic than they should be (which we see fairly often now).

    Post edited by Brald_Ironheart on
    Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    edited July 2017
    @Zindaihas - I don't think being an adventurer or a hero should make me immune to the elements.  Weather and natural phenomenon can be interesting opponents. 

    Do you think a flaming sword should be effective against fire elementals?  Or ice magic against magical creature made of ice?  I don't.  I think that's stupid.

    And magical armor could be damaged by a magical weapon or a magic spell, couldn't it?  Not only that, it would require magic to repair a damaged magical item.  The local blacksmith probably wouldn't cut it.


    Distopia
    Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    @ste2000 - I'm not an old school gamer, but I'm old enough to be one, and I have old school gamer values.  As an old school gamer, do you want to be able to suffer from hunger and thirst?  Do you want to be able to die from hunger and thirst if you go too long without food and water?  Do you like weight and encumbrance?  I do.  Those things aren't easy and convenient, but, to me, they are more reflective of a virtual world.  I want an mmorpg to be more like a virtual world and less like a game. 

    That's not to say that we couldn't find an enchanted bag that could hold a lot more stuff, or even an infinite number of things.  But I don't think we should be able to buy those kind of bags from the local merchant.  Fitting multiple suits of armor in any common bag or backpack is pretty silly to me.  I don't even like the idea of being able to buy magical potions from a vendor.

    Maybe it would require too much processing power to have every adventurer or party be towing along a pack mule, but we do already have mounts.  Why not have some of our inventory be saddlebags our mount carries, and even things packed on a pack mule that we at least need to have even if were not going its 3D model following us around all the time?  Not saying this is totally necessary though.  Just ideas.
    ste2000
    Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    People in this thread are reading some very bizarre things into "alt friendly". The brevity of a game is not what makes it alt-friendly. If anything, it's the abundance of content and sense of accomplishment the game provides that makes it worth replaying.
    Kilsindcutbi001


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Dullahan said:
    People in this thread are reading some very bizarre things into "alt friendly". The brevity of a game is not what makes it alt-friendly. If anything, it's the abundance of content and sense of accomplishment the game provides that makes it worth replaying.
    And why would you need to replay the game if there is so much content?

    If you are busy playing with your Main, you don't need an Alt, unless you are unhappy with your chosen Class
    If you are not playing with your Main, it means that this "abundance" of content you are talking about, is not there.

    Post edited by ste2000 on
    Distopia

  • blastermasterblastermaster Member UncommonPosts: 259
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    People in this thread are reading some very bizarre things into "alt friendly". The brevity of a game is not what makes it alt-friendly. If anything, it's the abundance of content and sense of accomplishment the game provides that makes it worth replaying.
    And why would you need to replay the game if there is so much content?

    If you are busy playing with your Main, you don't need an Alt, unless you are unhappy with your chosen Class
    If you are not playing with your Main, it means that this "abundance" of content you are talking about, is not there.

    I think he means abundance of content at ALL level range.

    This mean you would'nt be able to see it all with a single character (unless going through low level stuff with your main is something you enjoy), so you would need to run a few alts to experience it all, and it would make the whole process "new" and fun since you would'nt have to go through all the same starting zones/quests, etc. every time.


    At least, that's how I took it.. and that's what I get by "making the game "alt-friendly".  What I hope is for the abundance of content to exists throughout the whole game, not just the starting levels like it usually is the case (once you set out of the few starting zones, you usually end up on the same trail as you previous character).



    dcutbi001
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    ste2000 said:

    I think he means abundance of content at ALL level range.

    This mean you would'nt be able to see it all with a single character.
    You would if the leveling is slow enough, which is exactly my point.
    If you had to spend 2-3 months between lvl 25 and 35 chances are that you will be able to see all the content available, even if it's abundant.

    Also I never said that I am against Alts, I am against the "Alt Friendly".
    WoW is "Alt Friendly" by definition, and that doesn't make me too excited.

    If Kilsin didn't want Pantheon to be associated with WoW and he actually meant something else, then he should be more careful with the terminology he uses.
    He is a PR person, he should know better.

    Distopia

  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,528
    edited July 2017

    I think he means abundance of content at ALL level range.

    This mean you would'nt be able to see it all with a single character (unless going through low level stuff with your main is something you enjoy), so you would need to run a few alts to experience it all, and it would make the whole process "new" and fun since you would'nt have to go through all the same starting zones/quests, etc. every time.


    At least, that's how I took it.. and that's what I get by "making the game "alt-friendly".  What I hope is for the abundance of content to exists throughout the whole game, not just the starting levels like it usually is the case (once you set out of the few starting zones, you usually end up on the same trail as you previous character).



    Its' a bit of a waste of developer time and resources to create so much content versus levelling time that a player will outlevel a good chunk of it before even seeing it.  Creating content is neither easy nor free, so making content that players (especially those that don't make alts, because not everyone is an altoholic) will skip over by nature of overlevelling it while doing other content is not very efficient, I think.  Even those that DO make alts might skip past it anyways simply because the alternative content is faster or more efficient or more fun levelling.  So if the developer creates multiple levelling content paths, the developer's basically wasted time creating content that only a portion of the playerbase will bother with.
    ste2000
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    People in this thread are reading some very bizarre things into "alt friendly". The brevity of a game is not what makes it alt-friendly. If anything, it's the abundance of content and sense of accomplishment the game provides that makes it worth replaying.
    And why would you need to replay the game if there is so much content?

    If you are busy playing with your Main, you don't need an Alt, unless you are unhappy with your chosen Class
    If you are not playing with your Main, it means that this "abundance" of content you are talking about, is not there.

    Not at all the case. EQ had an abundance of content, and it was one of the only games I felt it worthwhile to play an alt.

    When you're max level, you can't always find a group in an open world game doing exactly what you want (for numerous reasons). Sometimes the right people arent online, sometimes a spot is taken, sometimes you need more people (or even a raid).

    For a lot of people, once you reach max level and have a solid set of gear, it's more fun to return to the beginning than to continue grinding end game that usually takes a progressively larger devotion of time.
    dcutbi001


  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    Kyleran said:
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
    Pantheon will definitely be Alt friendly, you won;t be able to do it all on your first characters playthrough, plus there will be many KoS racial starting zones that you will want to visit on an alt and yes, boxing is also allowed but will be difficult to do efficiently, so any signs of automated boxing software/botting will stand out quite obviously and easily allow us to identify it ;)
    You ever notice that Kilsin often refutes the "beliefs" many posters have regarding this game?

    Here he dispels the myth it won't be alt friendly, and perhaps even the belief it will be an extremely long and difficult process to max level a character.

    I suspect Pantheon will have more convenience features and fewer repetitious time sinks than some of the faithful might care for.


    I just try to get the most accurate and up to date information out there so people can make the best decisions and discuss the latest most accurate topics.

    When someone puts an opinion forward and states it as fact or works hard to argue in favour of their "idea", it can be the cause of many arguments and negativity, I just try to make sure you all have the most accurate information possible to try and minimise that, what you do with that information is your prerogative, my friend.

    We have stated a few times that Pantheon will be Alt friendly and that one character will struggle to do it all, so I am just essentially repeating information for those who may not have heard it. Levelling from 1-50 will be long and tough ;)

    Pantheon will not be some easy-mode, convenience friendly game, there will be a lot of challenge, skill and team work needed but we realise that some small things needed looking more closely at from previous games to bring them up to modern social standards, even for our community, and that doesn't mean we will teleport you to dungeons or give you spells/abilities to solo 1-50 easily but just give you enough to help you on your way to finding adventure, making friends and getting the job done without pulling your hair out and headbutting your monitor in the process.
    KyleranGeekyBrizlynjimmywolfdcutbi001

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
    Visit our Development Website. | Facebook | Twitter

  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    People in this thread are reading some very bizarre things into "alt friendly". The brevity of a game is not what makes it alt-friendly. If anything, it's the abundance of content and sense of accomplishment the game provides that makes it worth replaying.
    And why would you need to replay the game if there is so much content?

    If you are busy playing with your Main, you don't need an Alt, unless you are unhappy with your chosen Class
    If you are not playing with your Main, it means that this "abundance" of content you are talking about, is not there.

    Basically, because you will out level the content and be moving onto other areas/zones/continents, so going back and playing on a new class and choosing a new race and doing different racial starting zones and picking a different path the next time around will ultimately feel like a new game. You could do all this on your main while over levelled and more powerful and probably not receive much if any, experience - the choice would be yours.

    We hope players will be able to do 2-3 runs while enjoying this feeling of new content which is why we are focussing so heavily on the 1-50 game and not "end-game", even though there will be end-game content and raiding we want the journey to get there to be more fulfilling and packed with content.
    Brizlyn

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
    Visit our Development Website. | Facebook | Twitter

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Dullahan said:
    ste2000 said:

    And why would you need to replay the game if there is so much content?

    If you are busy playing with your Main, you don't need an Alt, unless you are unhappy with your chosen Class
    If you are not playing with your Main, it means that this "abundance" of content you are talking about, is not there.

    Not at all the case. EQ had an abundance of content, and it was one of the only games I felt it worthwhile to play an alt.

    Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
    I am not against Alts I am against the "Alt Friendly" mentality.
    WoW has a "Alt Friendly" gameplay, EQ doesn't.

    Yes you could make Alts in EQ, I had 2 on top of my Main, but having Alts took time and effort and I was never bored, yet it wasn't friendly at all, you had to work for it.
    It was also true that if you boxed, you could have lots of Alts in EQ, but again that's a clever work around which didn't make EQ "Alt Friendly".

    "Alt Friendly" is the wrong definition for what Kilsin and VR are trying to convey, it could lead to more misunderstanding and confusion rather than making things more clear and straightforward.

    Distopia

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Kilsin said:

    I just try to get the most accurate and up to date information out there so people can make the best decisions and discuss the latest most accurate topics.

    When someone puts an opinion forward and states it as fact or works hard to argue in favour of their "idea", it can be the cause of many arguments and negativity.
    Your superficial way to label things create more negativity than else, though in this case it is not your fault as you just copy/pasted informations found in the official FAQs.
    "Alt Friendly" does't mean what you and VR think it means.

    The people who are asking you if the game is "Alt Friendly" are not asking you if the game is going to be boring when they play an Alt, they just want to know if it will be easy in Pantheon to make lots of Alts (easy like in WoW), they are Altoholics, and all they care is how fast they can level so they can make more Alts.
    If it takes 5-6 months to level an Alt, that's not "Alt Friendly" in their view no matter how good the content is, and they will be terribly disappointed for being mislead.

    I suggest you guys are more careful when you use catchy terminology or it could easily backfire instead of helping your cause.
    Or you can just ignore the advice and suffer the consequences later when thousands of disappointed players flood the Internet Forums with negativity, complaining that they've been mislead.
    Good luck trying to arginate that kind of flood.

    Kilsin said:


    When someone puts an opinion forward and states it as fact or works hard to argue in favour of their "idea", it can be the cause of many arguments and negativity, I just try to make sure you all have the most accurate information possible to try and minimise that, what you do with that information is your prerogative, my friend.


    That's cool, you are entitled to do so, it is your job and your duty.
    But while you do so try not to discredit the very people who are helping raising awareness of Pantheon on this Forum, it could be counter productive.
    Obviously it's not always easy to provide the right information not being part of the Dev Team, but most of us mean well and deserve more credit.

    You are a PR person and you should know the way you communicate things are as important as the message itself.
    Whether there will be negativity or not around Pantheon it's up to you and how you deal with the criticism and the people on this Forum...It's all on you, my friend.

    DistopiaMendel

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,913
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    ste2000 said:

    And why would you need to replay the game if there is so much content?

    If you are busy playing with your Main, you don't need an Alt, unless you are unhappy with your chosen Class
    If you are not playing with your Main, it means that this "abundance" of content you are talking about, is not there.

    Not at all the case. EQ had an abundance of content, and it was one of the only games I felt it worthwhile to play an alt.

    Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
    I am not against Alts I am against the "Alt Friendly" mentality.
    WoW has a "Alt Friendly" gameplay, EQ doesn't.

    Yes you could make Alts in EQ, I had 2 on top of my Main, but having Alts took time and effort and I was never bored, yet it wasn't friendly at all, you had to work for it.
    It was also true that if you boxed, you could have lots of Alts in EQ, but again that's a clever work around which didn't make EQ "Alt Friendly".

    "Alt Friendly" is the wrong definition for what Kilsin and VR are trying to convey, it could lead to more misunderstanding and confusion rather than making things more clear and straightforward.

    You know, thinking more on this I think the issue is around what the meaning of alt-friendly is to each person.

    It takes me at least 3 months of fairly hardcore play to get a character on the DAOC freeshard to level 50. 

    That's just scratching the surface of character development. A fully leveled character would also be Realm Rank 15 L10 and likely the server will shutdown before I or most others could reach it.

    In fact, someone just hit RR 14L0, after 6 months of play and I have to assume they are under house arrest or something because that is a phenomenal achievement. 

    Yet despite all of the "time it takes, I consider the game to be alt-friendly.  Reason being due to fact every character plays quite differently, with different strengths and weaknesses so you generally don't  level them in the same places, or against the same once, or in the same way. 

    So yes, I guess the time it takes could make a game not be very alt friendly, say if we are talking L2 times, but even there many had alts.

    I think what it really comes down to is what Kilsin said, if players find the journey to 50 fun and enjoyable without feeling a pressing "need" to get to 50 in order to reach end game. (where most believe the "fun stuff resides)

    They won't mind leveling multiple characters at the same time as they won't be rushing to get anywhere.

    More than once I've read stories from early EQ1 players who really loved the game yet never reached max level on a single character, even after playing a year or more.

    Same story with other early MMOs such as AC1,  FFXI  and some others. 

    So we'll have to wait and see how engaging the journey turns out to be in order to determine if it's going to be a long term game or not.

    I'm  also sure if it's a long time period to get to 50 some players will not be able to tolerate not being able to hit end game quickly and will walk away, but no game can please everyone.




    Dullahan

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Other than playing a character in the opposing faction, I see no reason to play an alt in WoW. It's the exact same linear experience after level 10. #NotAltFriendly
    dcutbi001


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Dullahan said:
    Other than playing a character in the opposing faction, I see no reason to play an alt in WoW. It's the exact same linear experience after level 10. #NotAltFriendly
    That's because you haven't played WoW extensively as I did.
    At least 50% of the WoW players could not care less about the End Game and play only Alts.
    They like to collect different Classes with different Builds and different Gear.
    As I said, it is a very popular playstyle for Solo players, and one of the main reasons WoW is so popular.

    jimmywolf

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    ste2000 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Other than playing a character in the opposing faction, I see no reason to play an alt in WoW. It's the exact same linear experience after level 10. #NotAltFriendly
    At least 50% of the WoW players could not care less about the End Game and play only Alts.
    That's pretty common across mmos, and proves the point I was making. That regardless of how long it takes to get to the end, a lot of people would rather create new characters than sit at max level for marginal improvements. Especially when there's places to see and things to do that they did not experience the first time around.


  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    ste2000 said:
    Kilsin said:

    I just try to get the most accurate and up to date information out there so people can make the best decisions and discuss the latest most accurate topics.

    When someone puts an opinion forward and states it as fact or works hard to argue in favour of their "idea", it can be the cause of many arguments and negativity.
    Your superficial way to label things create more negativity than else, though in this case it is not your fault as you just copy/pasted informations found in the official FAQs.
    "Alt Friendly" does't mean what you and VR think it means.

    The people who are asking you if the game is "Alt Friendly" are not asking you if the game is going to be boring when they play an Alt, they just want to know if it will be easy in Pantheon to make lots of Alts (easy like in WoW), they are Altoholics, and all they care is how fast they can level so they can make more Alts.
    If it takes 5-6 months to level an Alt, that's not "Alt Friendly" in their view no matter how good the content is, and they will be terribly disappointed for being mislead.

    I suggest you guys are more careful when you use catchy terminology or it could easily backfire instead of helping your cause.
    Or you can just ignore the advice and suffer the consequences later when thousands of disappointed players flood the Internet Forums with negativity, complaining that they've been mislead.
    Good luck trying to arginate that kind of flood.

    Kilsin said:


    When someone puts an opinion forward and states it as fact or works hard to argue in favour of their "idea", it can be the cause of many arguments and negativity, I just try to make sure you all have the most accurate information possible to try and minimise that, what you do with that information is your prerogative, my friend.


    That's cool, you are entitled to do so, it is your job and your duty.
    But while you do so try not to discredit the very people who are helping raising awareness of Pantheon on this Forum, it could be counter productive.
    Obviously it's not always easy to provide the right information not being part of the Dev Team, but most of us mean well and deserve more credit.

    You are a PR person and you should know the way you communicate things are as important as the message itself.
    Whether there will be negativity or not around Pantheon it's up to you and how you deal with the criticism and the people on this Forum...It's all on you, my friend.



    It isn't superficial by any means, "Alt Friendly" generally means the ability to create and play an alternate character.  You will have extra character slots in Pantheon and the ability to create alternate characters, therefore we are alt friendly. It's as simple as that, my friend.

    I didn't discredit anyone, I spoke about the seriousness of misinformation, arguing over personal opinions, stating incorrect or unsubstantiated facts and how damaging they are to a community if left unchecked and how I try to provide the most up to date and accurate information to help stop that from happening.

    Communication is critical (something I specialised in during my previous 20-year career), as you said, but I can't control what people do with that information, everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions once they have the correct and most accurate information. I treat everyone like an adult, as the overwhelming majority of our community is, and a lot of people respect that, some, however, don't handle it well but they are usually in a very small minority and I just try to manage them the best way I can.

    I, like you, am never going to be able to please everyone or have everyone agree with me, but I always do the best I can with what I have and continue doing what has worked so well for my company and I to date.

    I appreciate the feedback, and hopefully, my reply was helpful.

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
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  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,202
    I think people need to be reminded what grind means in an mmo.
    When I say I dont want a grind I mean it in context of "asian grinder", and Thank the Gods Pantheon wont be anything like that.  Put interesting  and varied content in and it wont seem like a grind.  Make it all about doing the same thing 10billion times and it will.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,913
    edited July 2017
    svann said:
    I think people need to be reminded what grind means in an mmo.
    When I say I dont want a grind I mean it in context of "asian grinder", and Thank the Gods Pantheon wont be anything like that.  Put interesting  and varied content in and it wont seem like a grind.  Make it all about doing the same thing 10billion times and it will.
    Goals are good,  but the reason Asian grinders were built was to retain players for a long time without breaking the bank.

    Remains to be seen if a small indie team can deliver engaging content over the long haul at the fraction of the budget AAA games usually have.

    I remain skeptical that it can actually be accomplished without resorting to grind mechanics of some sort.
    Distopia

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:



    It isn't superficial by any means, "Alt Friendly" generally means the ability to create and play an alternate character.  You will have extra character slots in Pantheon and the ability to create alternate characters, therefore we are alt friendly. It's as simple as that, my friend.

    Nope it doesn't mean that.
    Every MMORPG allows you to have Alts, therefore they are all "Alt Friendly"?
    The "Friendly" bit means that it is easier than other games to make Alts, so since all the MMORPG let you create Alts, being "Alt Friendly" means that some games make it easier than others.

    It's the same with the "Solo Friendly" definition.
    All MMORPGs offers some kind of Solo play, but some focus more on Solo Content than others therefore they are labeled "Solo Friendly".
    When people asked VR if Pantheon was "Solo Friendly" you gave the correct answer.
    No it is not "Solo Friendly", but you can Solo although it is not as easy or efficient as playing in Group.

    That's the answer you should have given regarding the "Alt Friendly" definition.
    Pantheon is not "Alt Friendly", but it is possible to have several Alts if you put enough dedication.

    Why when people ask if Pantheon is "Solo Friendly" you (as VR) say it isn't, while if someone ask you if it is "Alt Friendly" you say that it is?
    Both things are possible in Pantheon, but both are not the focus of the game.
    So it's either both of the things are "Friendly" or none of them are.
    Simple as that.

    Post edited by ste2000 on
    KyleranDullahandcutbi001

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