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"The Pantheon Difference" (from the official Pantheon website)

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  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,707
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,903
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
    I believe they have already confirmed multi boxing  will be permitted but don't believe it will really be feasible. 
    coretex666

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,903
    edited July 2017
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.


    Yeah, I  am pretty sure this game isn't for me, gear grinding never is appealing to my tastes.

    Not to say I can't  or don't grind, heck I did nothing but mine for over 2.5 year's recently in EVE, not much anyone can tell me about grinding. 

    All comes down to what purpose grinding serves, but keeping "busy"is definitely not a reason I look for.

    Nor a good reason to stick around a few years. Sounds too much like L2 which I felt had over the top grind which gated the end game PVP model. (Which I'm also not fond of)


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,398
    ste2000 said:

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, 

    That may be the intent. And my own progress may be glacial. But I suspect that many players will find ways to blow through to end game fast, the same as they do in every other game. 
    Kyleranste2000

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    ste2000 said:


    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
    Boxing is permitted as long as you don't use a Third Party Software (BOTs).
    Yes, I believe there will be some boxing, though VR said it will be difficult, but I am sure players will find a work around as they usually do.

    coretex666Kyleran

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:



    Yeah, I  am pretty sure this game isn't for me, gear grinding never is appealing to my tastes.

    Ironically the way their Situational Gear is designed at the moment suits your taste more than it suits mine.
    I am supposed to be their target audiance, but then again, it is not the first time Developers get their Demographics wrong.
    I just hope VR don't lose focus along the way.
    The temptation to appeal to a broader audiance can be very difficult to resist.

    I also don't believe that having Situational Gear should be the only way you can play in zones affected by climate, it should be one of the options, other options should be temporary Spells and temporary Potions, so no one is truly cut out of Content, though Situational Gear should be slightly better than the other two options and a Permanent solution.

    I don't want Pantheon to be an hardcore game, but I want variety, different ways to achieve the same goal, so even people like you who are not necessarily EQ fans can play it.

    KyleranMrMelGibson

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:


    Players won;t need hundreds of different gear pieces and that just goes to show the lack of understanding with our system, which was teased in a stream so I can understand the confusion.

    That's what I said.
    ste2000 said:


    Their current system works by slotting the desired Prot Stat in any Gear you are wearing.

    My suggestion is to have specific Gear with embedded Prot Stats, which means you actually need to swap gear when you enter a zone with a specific Climate.

    Your current system don't need hundreds of gear pieces, but actually that's what I think you should do.
    I also explained the reasons why I think it is better:

    ste2000 said:

    Can't you see the potential?

    Can you imagine players having to acquire hundreds of different gear pieces to be able to play confortably through all the different Climates?
    This will greatly help with the longevity of the game, considering how many extra hours a player has to put to achieve that.
    That's horizontal content which is fairly easy to mass produce as you don't have to actually create a different 3D model for each piece of gear, but just add the Prot Stat and change the name of the item.

    Having to acquire hundreds of Situational Gear will keep players busy for months and months (remember Pantheon has a Monthly Subscription), it's a good way to give player something to look for while leveling.

    Of course many people will hate this, as some players just want to be able to access content when it suits them without restrictions, but Pantheon should aim for people who actually like to put effort in everything they do and take pleasure in unlocking content while playing the game.

    WoW and EQ2 (both vanilla versions) had some sort of Content Lock, which you had to unlock either by having the right Gear (WoW - Molten Core) or by Quest (EQ2 - Access Quests).
    I really enjoyed working on being able to access locked content, I still remember how excited I was the first time I stepped in Molten Core or Fallen Gates.

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    That's essentially how I feel as well, I think a system for climate where it's always a danger and promotes the use of other systems like camps, campfires in the cold, etc. Would be far more ideal to this type of game. I mean the whole idea is bringing folks together, grinds and gating promotes the opposite as it segregates players into haves and have nots, meaning you're separating the folks from those they want to play with. IF Billy has those "pots" and can traverse the land, yet Bob doesn't and can't you just hurt their ability to progress together.

    Making one either have to repeat the process or the other to go find something else to do. That's as damaging to group play as phasing or anything else that breaks a group up. 
    MrMelGibson

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Distopia said:
    Kyleran said:

    That's essentially how I feel as well, I think a system for climate where it's always a danger and promotes the use of other systems like camps, campfires in the cold, etc. Would be far more ideal to this type of game. I mean the whole idea is bringing folks together, grinds and gating promotes the opposite as it segregates players into haves and have nots, meaning you're separating the folks from those they want to play with. IF Billy has those "pots" and can traverse the land, yet Bob doesn't and can't you just hurt their ability to progress together.

    See, the secret is in the fine details.
    If Bob don't have the Situational Gear, a group of friends can decide to form a group and help him acquire such Gear (something I usually do for my mates).
    Meanwhile Bob can buy temporary Pots from the AH or get them as a gift from other players (Guild Mates, Friends, Good Samaritans), he could also get temporary Buffs from Classes who have Protective Spells.

    See how much Social Interaction there is and how easy it is to get around the "obstacle"?
    If the game is designed properly and offer different alternatives for the same problem, the game will have greater depth without making it necessarily more difficult.
    If the Developers on the other hand go for the easy solution they will either miss the mark completely or the game will be really shallow.

    Distopia

  • ZindaihasZindaihas Member UncommonPosts: 3,662
    ste2000 said:


    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    A lot of people may take that as bad news, but if true, it doesn't bother me at all.  In fact, I actually kind of like it.  I've never been a big alt player myself and enjoy concentrating on one character.  So rather than scaring me away, that little bit of news makes me more likely to play Pantheon.

  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
    Pantheon will definitely be Alt friendly, you won;t be able to do it all on your first characters playthrough, plus there will be many KoS racial starting zones that you will want to visit on an alt and yes, boxing is also allowed but will be difficult to do efficiently, so any signs of automated boxing software/botting will stand out quite obviously and easily allow us to identify it ;)
    coretex666MrMelGibson

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
    Visit our Development Website. | Facebook | Twitter

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,707
    ste2000 said:
    Distopia said:
    Kyleran said:

    That's essentially how I feel as well, I think a system for climate where it's always a danger and promotes the use of other systems like camps, campfires in the cold, etc. Would be far more ideal to this type of game. I mean the whole idea is bringing folks together, grinds and gating promotes the opposite as it segregates players into haves and have nots, meaning you're separating the folks from those they want to play with. IF Billy has those "pots" and can traverse the land, yet Bob doesn't and can't you just hurt their ability to progress together.

    See, the secret is in the fine details.
    If Bob don't have the Situational Gear, a group of friends can decide to form a group and help him acquire such Gear (something I usually do for my mates).
    Meanwhile Bob can buy temporary Pots from the AH or get them as a gift from other players (Guild Mates, Friends, Good Samaritans), he could also get temporary Buffs from Classes who have Protective Spells.

    See how much Social Interaction there is and how easy it is to get around the "obstacle"?
    If the game is designed properly and offer different alternatives for the same problem, the game will have greater depth without making it necessarily more difficult.
    If the Developers on the other hand go for the easy solution they will either miss the mark completely or the game will be really shallow.

    Also, I do not think that at this stage we understand the severity of the weather effects on your character unless it has been communicated and I missed it.

    I mean it may be more difficult for the group to go through the content with Bob who was slacking and did not get the resist items :), but I assume it would not completely prevent him from going to these locations with his friends. I would expect the resist items to be somewhere between "nice to have" and "it is impossible to do it without them".
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,903
    edited July 2017
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
    Pantheon will definitely be Alt friendly, you won;t be able to do it all on your first characters playthrough, plus there will be many KoS racial starting zones that you will want to visit on an alt and yes, boxing is also allowed but will be difficult to do efficiently, so any signs of automated boxing software/botting will stand out quite obviously and easily allow us to identify it ;)
    You ever notice that Kilsin often refutes the "beliefs" many posters have regarding this game?

    Here he dispels the myth it won't be alt friendly, and perhaps even the belief it will be an extremely long and difficult process to max level a character.

    I suspect Pantheon will have more convenience features and fewer repetitious time sinks than some of the faithful might care for.


    ste2000MrMelGibson

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • blastermasterblastermaster Member UncommonPosts: 259
    edited July 2017
    TLDR Version :  Zelda BotW has a very nice environment/weather system that I think could be looked and built upon for any MMORPG that tries to implement such systems.
    Oh.. and MMORPGs need to come back to their roots of having mutliple mechanics and rules and intertwined at various levels, which, for some might only be "tediousness", but for others, it's what makes the game feel more "worldly".

    ---

    When I read about weather/environment effects, I immediately think something like in the latest Zelda (BotW). The system is pretty nice in my opinion and could easily be used (and built upon to add even more effects, etc.) in an MMO.  Hope you guys at VR give this one a playthrough just to see it in action.

    For people who did not play, weather/envrionment has an impact on various levels. 

    1st, the temperature:  Going on snowy mountains is cold (and gets colder the higher you go..), so it requires you to dress with warm clothes, or wear cold resist jewelery, or eat/drink some cold resist food or potions (or a combination of many of these for harder to get locations).

    All these things can have different levels of effect (and duration), but these give you options, and that's always a good thing (if you have'nt found the gear yet, you can always craft potions or food, etc.).

    Same kind of thing for volcanic areas where things get so hot that you not only need resists, but any flamable gear you have equip will catch fire..

    Another nice touch is in the deserts.  During the day, it can get really hot (not as hot as in volcanoes, so gear does not ignite.. but hot enough to require some warmth resistance stuff). You can drop the temperature level a bit if you seek shade (nice detail here too!).  At night though, it gets cold, and you need to dress accordingly.

    2nd, the movements:  Walking in the snow, the sand, etc. is not as easy as walking on paved roads. So these can slow you down if you don't have the right "boots" for the situation. Same for swimming. Water currents exists and have an impact. Also, you can't climb some surfaces when it rains, because it makes them slippery. Wind also has an impact on throwing distances, etc.

    3rd, special effects:   Like stated for the volcanic areas, flammable gear could ignite in these environments. You can also attract lightning if you wear metal gear during a storm, etc.

    4th, weather dependent fauna/flora:  Some creatures and plants can only be found in certain situation. ex.: Some plants only grow in the coldest areas, while some insects only come out at night, or some animals can only be found roaming the land when it rains, etc.

    -

    Anyways, I'm sure you see how that goes, and all the potential behind it! That's the kind of things I want from a "weather and environmental" system. 

    What is needed to make this work though (and what Zelda BotW shines at constantly giving you) is "options". Have many different ways to work around the problems, both with their cons and pros.  Having options also gives the possibility to "tune" the difficulty of reaching certain zones by requiring more or less of each.

    For example, the "easier" zones could require a single item of low quality, while the hardest to reach would require you to have the highest elemental resists on all your slots, added to the best food and potions. Allowing every other combinations of number and quality in between for various other places throughout the game.

    Anyways. Playing Zelda just made me think about how MMORPG used to be before the "main streaming" occurred. There are rules and mechanics in Zelda that existed before in mmorpgs, but have been lost to "make them more accessible" or to "remove the tediousness" or to give anyone access to everything, but all these rules and systems that intertwine with one another on various levels are pretty much what made MMORPGs what they were in the first place, and what needs to be back (at least in some of them..)!

    KyleranBrald_IronheartMrMelGibson
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Kyleran said:
    Kilsin said:

    You ever notice that Kilsin often refutes the "beliefs" many posters have regarding this game?

    Here he dispels the myth it won't be alt friendly, and perhaps even the belief it will be an extremely long and difficult process to max level a character.

    I suspect Pantheon will have more convenience features and fewer repetitious time sinks than some of the faithful might care for.


    Yep, I noticed that, maybe I am following the wrong game.

    Probably I should stick with ESO, BDO and Warframe, I am starting to feel like I am wasting my time here.
    Maybe it is true what people are saying, Old School games are dead for good, as no developer seems to have the balls to actually make one.
    Good luck in trying to please everyone, it seems like lesson have not being learned here.

    MrMelGibsondrivendawn

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Kyleran said:
    Kilsin said:
    ste2000 said:
    Kyleran said:
    ste2000 said:

    Ugh no, if they take this route of gating content behind large timesinks such as gear, faction or material grinding I won't be playing.

    While obtaining access to a dungeon the first time might be fun,  doing it again and again on alts, not so much.

    The worst is grinding mats for consumables  over and over to enter the dungeon again.
    I know some people hate this stuff, but then again Pantheon has to make a choice.
    We already decided that this game is not going to cater for everyone.

    As someone said already, what for you is a Timesink, for me is Content.
    We have different ways to see things.

    Also, you should be aware that Pantheon is not going to be Alt friendly, as it takes ages to level one character, so you shouldn't worry too much about having to do the same content too often.

    Having to acquire Situational Gear keeps you busy while leveling.

    Given that it is not alt friendly, do you think that people will be "boxing" instead? 

    I come from early L2 where boxing was quite popular.

    @Kilsin will boxing be allowed / feasible in Pantheon?
    Pantheon will definitely be Alt friendly, you won;t be able to do it all on your first characters playthrough, plus there will be many KoS racial starting zones that you will want to visit on an alt and yes, boxing is also allowed but will be difficult to do efficiently, so any signs of automated boxing software/botting will stand out quite obviously and easily allow us to identify it ;)
    You ever notice that Kilsin often refutes the "beliefs" many posters have regarding this game?

    Here he dispels the myth it won't be alt friendly, and perhaps even the belief it will be an extremely long and difficult process to max level a character.

    I suspect Pantheon will have more convenience features and fewer repetitious time sinks than some of the faithful might care for.


    I don't think he said anything that should lead you to believe it won't be extremely long and difficult process to max level a character. Perhaps it won't, but nothing he said addressed that.

    Not sure why anyone would conclude that a game like Pantheon wouldn't be alt friendly, when both EQ and Vanguard were open world games that had more than you could ever do on even 2 or 3 characters.

    Really, nothing he said there even suggested there would be more convenience and less time sinks. If anything, Pantheon will have less monotony, but greater time devotion will still be key to your progression.

    From the FAQ:

    1.6 How do you plan to keep players interested without the hardcore grind of older MMOs? Will Pantheon be as hardcore as some older MMOs?

    Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.


    As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you .

    dcutbi001


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited July 2017
    Dullahan said:



    I don't think he said anything that should lead you to believe it won't be extremely long and difficult process to max level a character. Perhaps it won't, but nothing he said addressed that.

    Not sure why anyone would conclude that a game like Pantheon wouldn't be alt friendly, when both EQ and Vanguard were open world games that had more than you could ever do on even 2 or 3 characters.

    Really, nothing he said there even suggested there would be more convenience and less time sinks. If anything, Pantheon will have less monotony, but greater time devotion will still be key to your progression.

    From the FAQ:

    1.6 How do you plan to keep players interested without the hardcore grind of older MMOs? Will Pantheon be as hardcore as some older MMOs?

    Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.


    As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you .

    I think the key point there is this.... "in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism" Which suggests it will be in line with most MMOs. As the majority of them didn't have long grinds to reach the end. Really EQ and L2 were outliers there compared to the rest. 

    Nothing there really says the leveling process will be long, just that they're seeking longevity in their design through a number of systems.

    I think Ky's take away comes from the statement you can't do it all on one toon. WHich says to me as well, that leveling won't be a painstaking process,  you'll out-level things before you get to them. Hence it's extremely alt friendly if you want to experience it all. 
    KyleranMrMelGibson

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,528
    "As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you ."


    It's pretty much guaranteed to not be long if that's what they're shooting for.  The only way to have a grind be long AND to not have tedious repetition (which by pointing that out I assume the devs also are implying "Unlike EQ1") would be to have soooooooo much varied content (to make the trek both long AND varied/not repetitive) that it'd put every other MMORPG's amount of content to complete shame, and I highly doubt Pantheon will have that right out of the box.  No matter what your inherent game design is, the content isn't that easy to make, after all.
    DistopiaKyleranMrMelGibson
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,707
    I hope there will be a decent grind and a very long levelling process. It would be unfortunate if Pantheon turned into yet another MMO with an easily attainable level cap like all the themeparks out there.

    Whom should I screw to get a grindy MMORPG similar to L2, but with some interesting features thrown into the mix.


    Kyleranste2000Gyva02
  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    I hope there will be a decent grind and a very long levelling process. It would be unfortunate if Pantheon turned into yet another MMO with an easily attainable level cap like all the themeparks out there.

    If Pantheon is going to be Alt friendly it means that leveling will be fast, simple as that.
    So I kinda lost almost my interest right there.

    Alts are a by-products of fast leveling and poor end game.
    Games that are Alt friendly are generally fast paced and pretty shallow, so if that's the way Pantheon is heading I am going to move on something else.

    I am getting used being disappointed by now, that's just another one on my long list.

    MrMelGibsondrivendawndcutbi001

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,707
    ste2000 said:
    I hope there will be a decent grind and a very long levelling process. It would be unfortunate if Pantheon turned into yet another MMO with an easily attainable level cap like all the themeparks out there.

    If Pantheon is going to be Alt friendly it means that leveling will be fast, simple as that.
    So I kinda lost almost my interest right there.

    Alts are a by-products of fast leveling and poor end game.
    Games that are Alt friendly are generally fast paced and pretty shallow, so if that's the way Pantheon is heading I am going to move on something else.

    I am getting used being disappointed by now, that's just another one on my long list.

    Keep it on your radar and check it out when it releases, mate :).

    It may still turn out to be a good game. Even though there are indicators suggesting that you are right, we are still just speculating.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,784
    Why do people still use the term GRIND?Life is a grind,role playing is a life...guess what,need i say more?
    If something is FUN to play,who cares how long it takes or lasts?I am pretty sure if some money tree started to drop money at your feet,you wouldn't be saying ..."oh man this is a grind picking up all this money".
    if it is BORING,then that is the problem and NOT the grind or grindy design,if it's fun it could take a year and it won't matter.
    DullahanGyva02Brizlyndrivendawndcutbi001

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GavyneGavyne Member UncommonPosts: 116
    lol I always knew balancing and pleasing the old school crowd would be difficult.  This thread already shows that very well.  I mean we have people willing to walk because they simply mentioned the game will be alt-friendly... lol

    All I gotta say is good luck Visionary Realms, you've got a huge challenge ahead of you.  And we haven't even gotten to talk about the sensitive issues such as death penalty, forced grouping, hardcore raids, and itemization yet.
    Torvalste2000Distopia

    Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
    Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited July 2017
    Gavyne said:
    lol I always knew balancing and pleasing the old school crowd would be difficult.  This thread already shows that very well.  I mean we have people willing to walk because they simply mentioned the game will be alt-friendly... lol

    You are right, it is difficult to make an Old School game.
    I don't envy anyone who tries to make one.

    But there are things that should be integral part of an Old School game and in my opinion Pantheon being Alt friendly is game breaking, not that I hate Alts in principle, but as I explained in my previous post, Alts are a by-product of fast leveling and poor/boring end game.
    It's the fast leveling that is actually game breaking.

    Slow leveling should be the core of this game, I am not interested in another game where you get to Max Level in 2 months then you start an Alt, rinse and repeat.
    There are already excellent games out there which offers this type of gameplay.

    But it is not only that, as @Kyleran pointed out, the latest comments from @Kilsin kind of refuted a couple of beliefs I took for granted, and from what he said it looks like the game is heading toward the "easy mode" route, they are trying to convince the people that are stilll on the fence by watering down the initial concept of the game, making it more palatable to those people.
    I've already seen this "movie" so many times, I am not gonna sit back and watch it again.

    They need to decide, and If they decide that's the kind of audiance they want, then I am out, because the game is obviously not for me.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    edited July 2017
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:



    I don't think he said anything that should lead you to believe it won't be extremely long and difficult process to max level a character. Perhaps it won't, but nothing he said addressed that.

    Not sure why anyone would conclude that a game like Pantheon wouldn't be alt friendly, when both EQ and Vanguard were open world games that had more than you could ever do on even 2 or 3 characters.

    Really, nothing he said there even suggested there would be more convenience and less time sinks. If anything, Pantheon will have less monotony, but greater time devotion will still be key to your progression.

    From the FAQ:

    1.6 How do you plan to keep players interested without the hardcore grind of older MMOs? Will Pantheon be as hardcore as some older MMOs?

    Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.


    As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you .

    I think the key point there is this.... "in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism" Which suggests it will be in line with most MMOs. As the majority of them didn't have long grinds to reach the end. Really EQ and L2 were outliers there compared to the rest. 

    Nothing there really says the leveling process will be long, just that they're seeking longevity in their design through a number of systems.

    I think Ky's take away comes from the statement you can't do it all on one toon. WHich says to me as well, that leveling won't be a painstaking process,  you'll out-level things before you get to them. Hence it's extremely alt friendly if you want to experience it all. 
    Which is exactly how EQ was. Open world, totally non-linear. You couldn't even experience half of the dungeons in their entirety on a single character. A character could start in Faydark, go to Crushbone and then bounce between Unrest and Mistemoore until level 40 having seen less than 10% of the world.

    None of those things have anything to do with how long it takes. Notice the FAQ did not shy away from the hardcore tag, but simply smoothed it over by assuring they'd make the process as fun and unrepetative as possible...


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