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impatient players

This post was inspired by another poster.

Quote from Mendel:
" Show a session using only text chat -- no global or out-of-game chat.  Show how difficult is it to coordinate a group without VoIP or sitting in the same room.  (Since so many people on these forums are vehemently opposed to VoIP, how is Pantheon going to accommodate them). "


I've never played Everquest 1, only because it was before my time.  However I'm excited for a modern dynamics of the same.  I understand their will be a learning curve for me because I'm willing to learn.  This my not be the case for many or far worst, the players that are impatient no matter what. 

This is what I do know about this subject coming from second generation mmos like Vanilla WoW and Vanguard.  Have you ever tried to control a bad group ?......... The ones where the answer is crystal clear of impatient players ?..... It's impossible ! 



Here's an example I'll never forget from time after time of playing The Scarlet Monastery in Vanilla World of Warcraft: 

I consider this to be an extremely tactical dungeon.  You have two choices.
-Play it slow and tactical at a much lower level. 
-Play it at a much higher level and muscle your way through. 

The problem is 70% of the players back in the day never even knew about tactical, only muscle.  I've ALWAYS  found explaining tactical to a group is impossible unless they already know ( this cant be typed in chat ).  You would have to play this dungeon maybe 4 times to get a good group..... No one is ever willing to take it slow and learn, only the ones that already know are successful.
-Try telling a group to wait for buffs or mana.
-Try telling a group to bring that stubborn caster into the room before.
-Try telling a group to bring each and every mob group, one by one into the court yard.

I know what your thinking.   WoW is a cesspool of novice compared to the players back in the day.  Well, thousands and thousands will be playing Pantheon. 

I really don't think people will be saying " no, it's too hard "........ That's bullshit, brought on by marketing.  People like hard, but many will have to learn how to play........ This will be hard to learn from typing or having developers design a game sitting next to each other side by side as friends.

-I understand their will be built in voice.
-I understand Guilds will be established and closed off to novice.

However, I feel for the novice and hope this game works out for them if they can learn patients.  Hay, I'm one too, for first gen mmos:) 


Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    edited July 2017
    Things to consider using the word "niche". 

    I understand many don't agree with me even developers that this will not be niche, I understand I'm alone in this but think about a few things here:

    - Young people are not stupid, They like challenges like everyone else.
    - Often younger people are better than old school players.
    -  It's been a long time since we had an mmo. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  There 15-20 years old.
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  Their re-peaced back together and called modern, when in fact they are broken. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge, because they have a cash shop.
    - It's been so long from old school, it can now be called new school. 

    The only thing "niche" applies to is the game is not FREE-to-play, or on Steam sale for $5.


    And really think about this...... If you were 18 years old, and a real gamer keeping up to date on what's available.  And you loaded EQ1 or 2, it would take you about one hour to realize this game is f#$& up !..... Nothing about it makes sense.  And you would say where is all the people ?
    Thebeasttt
  • FasacrystFasacryst Member UncommonPosts: 1
    "- Often younger people are better than old school players."

    Come again???
    Phry
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,745
    Things to consider using the word "niche". 

    I understand many don't agree with me even developers that this will not be niche, I understand I'm alone in this but think about a few things here:

    - Young people are not stupid, They like challenges like everyone else.
    - Often younger people are better than old school players.
    -  It's been a long time since we had an mmo. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  There 15-20 years old.
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  Their re-peaced back together and called modern, when in fact they are broken. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge, because they have a cash shop.
    - It's been so long from old school, it can now be called new school. 

    The only thing "niche" applies to is the game is not FREE-to-play, or on Steam sale for $5.


    And really think about this...... If you were 18 years old, and a real gamer keeping up to date on what's available.  And you loaded EQ1 or 2, it would take you about one hour to realize this game is f#$& up !..... Nothing about it makes sense.  And you would say where is all the people ?
    You misunderstand the size of the MMORPGs market for "younger gamers".  One study I found from 2014 says for MMO's (likely includes more than MMORPG's) said only 8% of players were in the 18-20 year old age group, likely that figure has gone down since then.

    If Pantheon has a niche, it's definitely with older gamers and not so mjuch with folks under 25 I'm guessing.

    My son is one of those, going to be 25 this year, raised him on MMORPG's from the time he was 8, was a high level raider by 14 in WOW, but he hasn't touched one since GW2 first launched.

    Last 3 or 4 years has been nothing but LOL and last November I bought him the latest PS4 so he's been playing many of the classics on that platform.

    Most of his friends are the same, all played MMORPG's when they were young, but no interest in the genre anymore.  (too busy it seems for games with long play sessions)

    Phry

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    WPOTY contender
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Robokapp said:
    Fasacryst said:
    "- Often younger people are better than old school players."

    Come again???
    the progress of the old is yet another ressource for the young. We've been having foot races for 2000 years and yet the world record keeps dropping every few years. ever wonder why?
    Improved training techniques and somewhat controversially, the use of pharmaceuticals.
    There is a reason why athletes are regularly drug tested, perhaps a different example would have been better? :p
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Kyleran said:
    Things to consider using the word "niche". 

    I understand many don't agree with me even developers that this will not be niche, I understand I'm alone in this but think about a few things here:

    - Young people are not stupid, They like challenges like everyone else.
    - Often younger people are better than old school players.
    -  It's been a long time since we had an mmo. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  There 15-20 years old.
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  Their re-peaced back together and called modern, when in fact they are broken. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge, because they have a cash shop.
    - It's been so long from old school, it can now be called new school. 

    The only thing "niche" applies to is the game is not FREE-to-play, or on Steam sale for $5.


    And really think about this...... If you were 18 years old, and a real gamer keeping up to date on what's available.  And you loaded EQ1 or 2, it would take you about one hour to realize this game is f#$& up !..... Nothing about it makes sense.  And you would say where is all the people ?
    You misunderstand the size of the MMORPGs market for "younger gamers".  One study I found from 2014 says for MMO's (likely includes more than MMORPG's) said only 8% of players were in the 18-20 year old age group, likely that figure has gone down since then.

    If Pantheon has a niche, it's definitely with older gamers and not so mjuch with folks under 25 I'm guessing.

    My son is one of those, going to be 25 this year, raised him on MMORPG's from the time he was 8, was a high level raider by 14 in WOW, but he hasn't touched one since GW2 first launched.

    Last 3 or 4 years has been nothing but LOL and last November I bought him the latest PS4 so he's been playing many of the classics on that platform.

    Most of his friends are the same, all played MMORPG's when they were young, but no interest in the genre anymore.  (too busy it seems for games with long play sessions)

    That isn't a good reference for this statistic for a number of reasons apart from the obviously glaring lurking variables that can be identified through simple statistical knowledge. There are several studies from 2016/2017 tracking "MMO" demographics, but the term "MMO" itself is arbitrary (it would include several games outside of the MMORPG genre we are more acutely interested in/discussing, and as of now I've never found a study specifically addressing MMORPGS). Numbers show 20% of the MMO population is under 18 and a whopping 41% of the total N population of gamers are female (I thought that was cool/surprising). For all intent and purpose, however, your statement about a minute market for the younger demographic is arguably true. 

    I just think gaming in general is a much more volatile market than others (if everyone starts saying a game is awesome, everyone will generally flock to it and vice versa). There are always exceptions, but generally speaking, make a good game and people of all ages are going to come. I'm in my upper 20s now and am exactly like your son as far as gaming goes. Most of us are and it isn't because there's no market for MMOs/MMORPGs; rather, there hasn't been a fresh, innovative, "New" (for all intent and purposes) feeling game, so people just haven't been playing the genre. I'm sure if you ask your son and his friends (same as myself and my friends), they'll tell you they've been waiting for a good mmorpg or at least would say they maybe haven't been waiting for one but would definitely play one if a good one came out.

    Contrary to what many people say, Pantheon is truly not catering to a remote audience. They are positively creating this game with innovative features to attract all ages and genders, so we don't have to worry about that issue (hopefully) either. I honestly don't think your son is "too busy" for games these days. You're his father, and I'm sure you were just as "busy" then. People act like people didn't have jobs, school, families, friends etc circa 2000 era with Everquest, but we had all of those things. People still played day and night - for years - as they continue to do today. We simply prioritize activities in life based on how we subconsciously value them. MMOs will never die anymore than any other gaming genre like 2d fighters, sports games, etc do. Similar to this, there is a specific population of people (us) that will always love that fantastical/magical lore esque escape, so as long as the game is good people will always be drawn to it. I mean taking a holistic approach, we all know MMOs in general have been drastically dying the past 5 ish years; but you know what hasn't died in any way is the funding for MMOs. I haven't looked anything up, but there may be more money than ever being dumped into MMOs (many of which never release or sustain). This alone is a key marketing motive proving there is an exorbitant interest in MMOs (arguably more than ever because of how thirsty we all are for a solid, innovative, refreshing one). Bottom line you make a badass game and people of all ages will come.
    DullahanThunder073
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited July 2017
    Things to consider using the word "niche". 

    I understand many don't agree with me even developers that this will not be niche, I understand I'm alone in this but think about a few things here:

    - Young people are not stupid, They like challenges like everyone else.
    - Often younger people are better than old school players.
    -  It's been a long time since we had an mmo. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  There 15-20 years old.
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  Their re-peaced back together and called modern, when in fact they are broken. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge, because they have a cash shop.
    - It's been so long from old school, it can now be called new school. 

    The only thing "niche" applies to is the game is not FREE-to-play, or on Steam sale for $5.


    And really think about this...... If you were 18 years old, and a real gamer keeping up to date on what's available.  And you loaded EQ1 or 2, it would take you about one hour to realize this game is f#$& up !..... Nothing about it makes sense.  And you would say where is all the people ?
    EQ as it was then is niche. This isn't about how challenging it's to play. It's about inconvenience and risk. That's what separates old EQ from the modern crop. All the modern ones come with automarkers, strong soloing (*), radars, expansive quest features, dungeon finders, cross-server instagroup makers, flashy maps with GPS, golden paths, respeccing, instances and so forth. That's just a handful examples of hand holding conveniences. Risk pertains to things like death penalty and corpse runs and train aggro. Game designers figured out most players hate negative consequences. This also applies to inventory encumbrance or items breaking. In sum, game designers are trying to reduce frustration and increase entertainment. For most players, this is profitable business. But for a few, such as myself, it's repellent. MMO's were never just a game for me. They weren't just a source of fun. I sought hardship.

    Challenge is a different animal. Tetris is challenging. Chess is challenging. WoW has challenging gameplay. Most games do. Some have more than others. Challenge is the kind of thing makes you change your tactics or strategy to win. It should have nothing to do with inconvenience or risk. Challenge is primarily what makes a good game. Simple to learn, hard to master. That's the defining phrase.

    (*) - Player interdependence is strong trait of old EQ.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    TwoTubesDullahan
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,745
    Zuljan said:
    Kyleran said:
    Things to consider using the word "niche". 

    I understand many don't agree with me even developers that this will not be niche, I understand I'm alone in this but think about a few things here:

    - Young people are not stupid, They like challenges like everyone else.
    - Often younger people are better than old school players.
    -  It's been a long time since we had an mmo. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  There 15-20 years old.
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  Their re-peaced back together and called modern, when in fact they are broken. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge, because they have a cash shop.
    - It's been so long from old school, it can now be called new school. 

    The only thing "niche" applies to is the game is not FREE-to-play, or on Steam sale for $5.


    And really think about this...... If you were 18 years old, and a real gamer keeping up to date on what's available.  And you loaded EQ1 or 2, it would take you about one hour to realize this game is f#$& up !..... Nothing about it makes sense.  And you would say where is all the people ?
    You misunderstand the size of the MMORPGs market for "younger gamers".  One study I found from 2014 says for MMO's (likely includes more than MMORPG's) said only 8% of players were in the 18-20 year old age group, likely that figure has gone down since then.

    If Pantheon has a niche, it's definitely with older gamers and not so mjuch with folks under 25 I'm guessing.

    My son is one of those, going to be 25 this year, raised him on MMORPG's from the time he was 8, was a high level raider by 14 in WOW, but he hasn't touched one since GW2 first launched.

    Last 3 or 4 years has been nothing but LOL and last November I bought him the latest PS4 so he's been playing many of the classics on that platform.

    Most of his friends are the same, all played MMORPG's when they were young, but no interest in the genre anymore.  (too busy it seems for games with long play sessions)

    That isn't a good reference for this statistic for a number of reasons apart from the obviously glaring lurking variables that can be identified through simple statistical knowledge. There are several studies from 2016/2017 tracking "MMO" demographics, but the term "MMO" itself is arbitrary (it would include several games outside of the MMORPG genre we are more acutely interested in/discussing, and as of now I've never found a study specifically addressing MMORPGS). Numbers show 20% of the MMO population is under 18 and a whopping 41% of the total N population of gamers are female (I thought that was cool/surprising). For all intent and purpose, however, your statement about a minute market for the younger demographic is arguably true. 

    I just think gaming in general is a much more volatile market than others (if everyone starts saying a game is awesome, everyone will generally flock to it and vice versa). There are always exceptions, but generally speaking, make a good game and people of all ages are going to come. I'm in my upper 20s now and am exactly like your son as far as gaming goes. Most of us are and it isn't because there's no market for MMOs/MMORPGs; rather, there hasn't been a fresh, innovative, "New" (for all intent and purposes) feeling game, so people just haven't been playing the genre. I'm sure if you ask your son and his friends (same as myself and my friends), they'll tell you they've been waiting for a good mmorpg or at least would say they maybe haven't been waiting for one but would definitely play one if a good one came out.

    Contrary to what many people say, Pantheon is truly not catering to a remote audience. They are positively creating this game with innovative features to attract all ages and genders, so we don't have to worry about that issue (hopefully) either. I honestly don't think your son is "too busy" for games these days. You're his father, and I'm sure you were just as "busy" then. People act like people didn't have jobs, school, families, friends etc circa 2000 era with Everquest, but we had all of those things. People still played day and night - for years - as they continue to do today. We simply prioritize activities in life based on how we subconsciously value them. MMOs will never die anymore than any other gaming genre like 2d fighters, sports games, etc do. Similar to this, there is a specific population of people (us) that will always love that fantastical/magical lore esque escape, so as long as the game is good people will always be drawn to it. I mean taking a holistic approach, we all know MMOs in general have been drastically dying the past 5 ish years; but you know what hasn't died in any way is the funding for MMOs. I haven't looked anything up, but there may be more money than ever being dumped into MMOs (many of which never release or sustain). This alone is a key marketing motive proving there is an exorbitant interest in MMOs (arguably more than ever because of how thirsty we all are for a solid, innovative, refreshing one). Bottom line you make a badass game and people of all ages will come.
    Well I did double check with my son, seems Overwatch is his go to game and he preordered some sequel title for the PS4 due out in Dec.

    He definitely was not looking for an old school experience,  but if word started to circulate on reddit and his friends Patheon was a great game I'm sure he would give it a go.

    Still strongly influenced by peer pressure and marketing it seems.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,366
    Impatient players will continue to move to whatever title scratches their personal gaming itch.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Zuljan said:
    Kyleran said:
    Things to consider using the word "niche". 

    I understand many don't agree with me even developers that this will not be niche, I understand I'm alone in this but think about a few things here:

    - Young people are not stupid, They like challenges like everyone else.
    - Often younger people are better than old school players.
    -  It's been a long time since we had an mmo. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  There 15-20 years old.
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge.  Their re-peaced back together and called modern, when in fact they are broken. 
    - The classics ARE NOT a good source to judge, because they have a cash shop.
    - It's been so long from old school, it can now be called new school. 

    The only thing "niche" applies to is the game is not FREE-to-play, or on Steam sale for $5.


    And really think about this...... If you were 18 years old, and a real gamer keeping up to date on what's available.  And you loaded EQ1 or 2, it would take you about one hour to realize this game is f#$& up !..... Nothing about it makes sense.  And you would say where is all the people ?
    You misunderstand the size of the MMORPGs market for "younger gamers".  One study I found from 2014 says for MMO's (likely includes more than MMORPG's) said only 8% of players were in the 18-20 year old age group, likely that figure has gone down since then.

    If Pantheon has a niche, it's definitely with older gamers and not so mjuch with folks under 25 I'm guessing.

    My son is one of those, going to be 25 this year, raised him on MMORPG's from the time he was 8, was a high level raider by 14 in WOW, but he hasn't touched one since GW2 first launched.

    Last 3 or 4 years has been nothing but LOL and last November I bought him the latest PS4 so he's been playing many of the classics on that platform.

    Most of his friends are the same, all played MMORPG's when they were young, but no interest in the genre anymore.  (too busy it seems for games with long play sessions)

    That isn't a good reference for this statistic for a number of reasons apart from the obviously glaring lurking variables that can be identified through simple statistical knowledge. There are several studies from 2016/2017 tracking "MMO" demographics, but the term "MMO" itself is arbitrary (it would include several games outside of the MMORPG genre we are more acutely interested in/discussing, and as of now I've never found a study specifically addressing MMORPGS). Numbers show 20% of the MMO population is under 18 and a whopping 41% of the total N population of gamers are female (I thought that was cool/surprising). For all intent and purpose, however, your statement about a minute market for the younger demographic is arguably true. 

    I just think gaming in general is a much more volatile market than others (if everyone starts saying a game is awesome, everyone will generally flock to it and vice versa). There are always exceptions, but generally speaking, make a good game and people of all ages are going to come. I'm in my upper 20s now and am exactly like your son as far as gaming goes. Most of us are and it isn't because there's no market for MMOs/MMORPGs; rather, there hasn't been a fresh, innovative, "New" (for all intent and purposes) feeling game, so people just haven't been playing the genre. I'm sure if you ask your son and his friends (same as myself and my friends), they'll tell you they've been waiting for a good mmorpg or at least would say they maybe haven't been waiting for one but would definitely play one if a good one came out.

    Contrary to what many people say, Pantheon is truly not catering to a remote audience. They are positively creating this game with innovative features to attract all ages and genders, so we don't have to worry about that issue (hopefully) either. I honestly don't think your son is "too busy" for games these days. You're his father, and I'm sure you were just as "busy" then. People act like people didn't have jobs, school, families, friends etc circa 2000 era with Everquest, but we had all of those things. People still played day and night - for years - as they continue to do today. We simply prioritize activities in life based on how we subconsciously value them. MMOs will never die anymore than any other gaming genre like 2d fighters, sports games, etc do. Similar to this, there is a specific population of people (us) that will always love that fantastical/magical lore esque escape, so as long as the game is good people will always be drawn to it. I mean taking a holistic approach, we all know MMOs in general have been drastically dying the past 5 ish years; but you know what hasn't died in any way is the funding for MMOs. I haven't looked anything up, but there may be more money than ever being dumped into MMOs (many of which never release or sustain). This alone is a key marketing motive proving there is an exorbitant interest in MMOs (arguably more than ever because of how thirsty we all are for a solid, innovative, refreshing one). Bottom line you make a badass game and people of all ages will come.
    Completely agree with your post up to the part about money being put into MMORPGs. The few big companies are dumping money to sustain their games. Not a lot of investment money going towards new games.

    The main point is that people have not changed. They don't want to put the time into new MMOs because those games don't feel worth putting time into. The experience offered by mmos for over a decade has been almost identical with each new game. Even games with potential like ArcheAge still had to include the same linear single player progression.

    When mmorpgs become massively multiplayer again, people will find the time.


  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    This post was inspired by another poster.

    Quote from Mendel:
    " Show a session using only text chat -- no global or out-of-game chat.  Show how difficult is it to coordinate a group without VoIP or sitting in the same room.  (Since so many people on these forums are vehemently opposed to VoIP, how is Pantheon going to accommodate them). "

    I know it's hard for some people to believe, but we coordinated 72 man raids in EQ using text chat only. Raids that required dead on timing and complicated teamwork.
    AmatheThunder073

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    This post was inspired by another poster.

    Quote from Mendel:
    " Show a session using only text chat -- no global or out-of-game chat.  Show how difficult is it to coordinate a group without VoIP or sitting in the same room.  (Since so many people on these forums are vehemently opposed to VoIP, how is Pantheon going to accommodate them). "

    I know it's hard for some people to believe, but we coordinated 72 man raids in EQ using text chat only. Raids that required dead on timing and complicated teamwork.
    I've no problem believing that, @Nightbriinge1.  I was in several of those 72 man, pre-raid interface raids myself.  Early, early Vox raids weren't even limited to 72 -- that number sprang to life with the raid interface (Alt-R) in (or after) the PoP expansion.

    What I don't understand is how a request for input in another thread inspired the initial (and several follow-on) rants which are totally independent of my original post.  I guess I'm just more influential than I realized.  Go team Mendel!  ( I just wanted to see the text interface, not VoIP -- VR has claimed that the complexity will help prohibit boxing, does that complexity interfere with normal old-school text communication as well).
    lahnmir

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    edited July 2017
    EQ as it was then is niche. This isn't about how challenging it's to play. It's about inconvenience and risk... Risk pertains to things like death penalty and corpse runs and train aggro. Game designers figured out most players hate negative consequences. This also applies to inventory encumbrance or items breaking. In sum, game designers are trying to reduce frustration and increase entertainment. For most players, this is profitable business. But for a few, such as myself, it's repellent. MMO's were never just a game for me. They weren't just a source of fun. I sought hardship.

    I just wanted to quote this for emphasis.  Well said. 

    Challenge is brought up much to often.  I think that is being misinterpreted by many that never delved deeply into some of the 1st gen mmos.  It is the negative consequences and hardship that has been missing from games for the last 10-15 years.  Often, it is the harsh negative consequences that people mean to discuss when they use the word "challenge".

    Example: Comparing the challenge of 1st gen mmos to the "WoW and later" time period of the genre is like night and day.

    What I am actually meaning to discuss in the example sentence above are the hardships and negative consequences, not challenge level.
    Dullahan
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited July 2017
    EQ as it was then is niche. This isn't about how challenging it's to play. It's about inconvenience and risk... Risk pertains to things like death penalty and corpse runs and train aggro. Game designers figured out most players hate negative consequences. This also applies to inventory encumbrance or items breaking. In sum, game designers are trying to reduce frustration and increase entertainment. For most players, this is profitable business. But for a few, such as myself, it's repellent. MMO's were never just a game for me. They weren't just a source of fun. I sought hardship.

    I just wanted to quote this for emphasis.  Well said. 

    Challenge is brought up much to often.  I think that is being misinterpreted by many that never delved deeply into some of the 1st gen mmos.  It is the negative consequences and hardship that has been missing from games for the last 10-15 years.  Often, it is the harsh negative consequences that people mean to discuss when they use the word "challenge".

    Example: Comparing the challenge of 1st gen mmos to the "WoW and later" time period of the genre is like night and day.

    What I am actually meaning to discuss in the example sentence above are the hardships and negative consequences, not challenge level.
    I agree but you omitted the inconvenience part. I think that's also a strong component of the changes in the past 10-15 years. For example, having to run for 5 minutes to get somewhere. I would not say that's explicitly a risk. Instead I think it's inconvenience.  Similarly, searching for things without automarkers on your map/radar is inconvenient. Indirectly, risk is possible with both examples, but it's not directly attached. Train aggro, for example, is directly linked to increased risk.

    Also is risk the same as negative consequence? By definition risk is:
    * possibility of loss or injury
    * someone or something that creates or suggests a hazard

    What's a negative consequence? It's the result of an activity in-game causing frustration or penalty to the player. Typically it seems most plaeyrs define it as the point at which a game is no longer fun, as alluded here:
    https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/the-snowball-effect-and-how-to-avoid-it-in-game-design--cms-21892
    a game is no longer fun when a player becomes unable to influence the end result.
    This point is vital, not just to "snowballing", but also to general game design. A player should always be able to win. If a player can't win, then the game is over, and forcing people to play out a defeat is punishing and unfun in a serious way.
    So it seems risk is a definable CHANCE of negative consequence.

    Accordingly, Everquest was "fun" until you died or wiped or undeniably lost something and were forced to play through the defeat. The result? Modern MMO's refrain from forcing you to play through a defeat. They also reduce the chance you'll fight an undefeatable opponent or be placed into a unwinnable situation. This also explains linear leveling paths, level scaling and other content designs.

    I stated in my original post I sought hardship, not just fun. According to that site, this is "punishing and unfun". What if it's wanted? Not everything we want in life is merely for fun alone. Software can be lots of things.

    Also I linked strong player interdependence, probably the biggest defining (and niche) feature of old Everquest, with inconvenience, not risk. I think players prefer soloing largely because it has less commitments--being on their own schedule. Afking is much easier when soloing. I think people with less time trend to favor soloing. Designers have tried to make grouping more instant, but I think it's more awry.

    Soloing is the elephant in the room.


    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    I think we are on the same page Hawkaya.  You just want to define it in more detail than I think is necessary.

    The important thing to note is that you are not the only one who desires gameplay that is "not fun".  So much so that I believe it is a necessary requirement in order to make a "good" game.
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