When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
It's largely non-interactive and boring. You never actually engage in a crafting process, it's mostly about collecting, which isn't really crafting.
Maybe if crafting an item was more like a raid boss in terms of having a hotbar full of "crafting abilities" that you have to time and use appropriately within an items context over the duration of X number of minutes to craft an item, then it might be interesting - with the quality of the item increasing based on accuracy and your skill in developing components of the item. Almost like a dps meter of crafting where the better you perform, the better an item you create.
When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
...
completely and totally not correct.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
...
completely and totally not correct.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
I looked up some youtube videos of Wurm to see the crafting, would you mind sharing something that is representative of what you consider "good crafting"? Because all I'm finding is dialogue boxes with "create" buttons and a progress bar that fills when it's clicked. I do not care in the slightest about how many items you have to collect and assemble. Opening up an in-game wiki which tells you that to build an X you need Y items, then just clicking "create" etc ad nauseam. That's not crafting. That's literally collecting stuff.
You're more than welcome to show me something in which crafting is a process that you engage in (Minecraft is an example of the process of crafting, but it's pretty limited in terms of how you interact - which is why it's still lame).
I leathercraft IRL. Almost the entire time is spent in the process of crafting, I do not need to go collect 5 hides to make a backpack. Nor do I go through 20 needles. Because crafting is not collecting. Possessing a list of items and then pressing a button to combine them is not crafting.
When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
...
completely and totally not correct.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
I looked up some youtube videos of Wurm to see the crafting, would you mind sharing something that is representative of what you consider "good crafting"? Because all I'm finding is dialogue boxes with "create" buttons and a progress bar that fills when it's clicked. I do not care in the slightest about how many items you have to collect and assemble. Opening up an in-game wiki which tells you that to build an X you need Y items, then just clicking "create" etc ad nauseam. That's not crafting. That's literally collecting stuff.
You're more than welcome to show me something in which crafting is a process that you engage in (Minecraft is an example of the process of crafting, but it's pretty limited in terms of how you interact - which is why it's still lame).
I leathercraft IRL. Almost the entire time is spent in the process of crafting, I do not need to go collect 5 hides to make a backpack. Nor do I go through 20 needles. Because crafting is not collecting. Possessing a list of items and then pressing a button to combine them is not crafting.
dont confused 'good crafting' with your original assertion and my take on it.
1. '"acquisition and trading"? Wurm is an example of how accusation and trading is not part of crafting or the intrest of it. Wurm is only one example of many.
2. 'is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game' Again with likely hunderds of recipes nearly all of which produce items that are of use and in many cases are items that are prerequisites for larger items it becomes a LOT more complex and detailed then lets say EQ2 and in the case of Wurm it not a mini-game but rather THE game.
I never said anything about 'good' or not. I am directly reflecting on specifically what you said, not something else so lets not divert
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Crafting - The improvement phase is unique to Wurm.
Nope, try again.
SWG had a system in place to improve crafted items, pretty sure that was before Wurm, since SWG released around 2003, which is roughly when they started work on Wurm iirc.
So SWG had all items with a quality rating on it (explicitly different from other ratings) in which the quality of the same item could be increased by crafting using various (more than one) tool to do so. And that quality affected the items durability (which means it would last longer before breaking)?
Yes.
You started by going out, and searching for the best resources you could find, harvesting them, then you made all the components you need to make the item you want.
Each resource had its own set of stats.
Each component had base values, determined by the stats of the resources used, and you could experiment on each component, improving the quality of that component, you could also, if you wanted to, make a blueprint of the improved component and then use a factory to mass produce them.
Once you had all the components you needed, you could then put them together to make the item, for example, a gun, which would have base stats determined by the components you used, and then experiment on that gun, make improvements to it, included quality and durability, and once again, if you wanted to, you could make a blueprint from it, and mass produce them in a factory.
Or you could just make a gun with base stats.
And it was the same for every item you could craft in SWG.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Crafting - The improvement phase is unique to Wurm.
Nope, try again.
SWG had a system in place to improve crafted items, pretty sure that was before Wurm, since SWG released around 2003, which is roughly when they started work on Wurm iirc.
So SWG had all items with a quality rating on it (explicitly different from other ratings) in which the quality of the same item could be increased by crafting using various (more than one) tool to do so. And that quality affected the items durability (which means it would last longer before breaking)?
Yes.
You started by going out, and searching for the best resources you could find, harvesting them, then you made all the components you need to make the item you want.
Each resource had its own set of stats.
Each component had base values, determined by the stats of the resources used, and you could experiment on each component, improving the quality of that component, you could also, if you wanted to, make a blueprint of the improved component and then use a factory to mass produce them.
Once you had all the components you needed, you could then put them together to make the item, for example, a gun, which would have base stats determined by the components you used, and then experiment on that gun, make improvements to it, included quality and durability, and once again, if you wanted to, you could make a blueprint from it, and mass produce them in a factory.
Or you could just make a gun with base stats.
And it was the same for every item you could craft in SWG.
that is not what I said.
1. was there a 'stat' literally called quality? 2. did that 'stat' (called quality) affect the stat called 'durability' in that item? 3. did it take multiple tools (which are also created) with to increase the stat called 'durability' to an already existing component or item. 4. if an item got to durablity of zero did the item break?
SWG maybe a wonderful system, it might even better system in Wurm. But its stupid to call the quality system the same.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
...
completely and totally not correct.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
I looked up some youtube videos of Wurm to see the crafting, would you mind sharing something that is representative of what you consider "good crafting"? Because all I'm finding is dialogue boxes with "create" buttons and a progress bar that fills when it's clicked. I do not care in the slightest about how many items you have to collect and assemble. Opening up an in-game wiki which tells you that to build an X you need Y items, then just clicking "create" etc ad nauseam. That's not crafting. That's literally collecting stuff.
You're more than welcome to show me something in which crafting is a process that you engage in (Minecraft is an example of the process of crafting, but it's pretty limited in terms of how you interact - which is why it's still lame).
I leathercraft IRL. Almost the entire time is spent in the process of crafting, I do not need to go collect 5 hides to make a backpack. Nor do I go through 20 needles. Because crafting is not collecting. Possessing a list of items and then pressing a button to combine them is not crafting.
I agree that crafting should be engaging and that it's almost impossible to find fun and engaging crafting. the video below is someone making a hatchet blade, having to hit the metal with a compliment of tools in exact spots to get the highest possible quality blade. It's difficult to pull off even when using a video like this :P A tale in the desert is the best implimentation imo, I wish some AAA studio would be pick up the great ideas and make them in a modern game.
Crafting - The improvement phase is unique to Wurm.
Nope, try again.
SWG had a system in place to improve crafted items, pretty sure that was before Wurm, since SWG released around 2003, which is roughly when they started work on Wurm iirc.
So SWG had all items with a quality rating on it (explicitly different from other ratings) in which the quality of the same item could be increased by crafting using various (more than one) tool to do so. And that quality affected the items durability (which means it would last longer before breaking)?
Yes.
You started by going out, and searching for the best resources you could find, harvesting them, then you made all the components you need to make the item you want.
Each resource had its own set of stats.
Each component had base values, determined by the stats of the resources used, and you could experiment on each component, improving the quality of that component, you could also, if you wanted to, make a blueprint of the improved component and then use a factory to mass produce them.
Once you had all the components you needed, you could then put them together to make the item, for example, a gun, which would have base stats determined by the components you used, and then experiment on that gun, make improvements to it, included quality and durability, and once again, if you wanted to, you could make a blueprint from it, and mass produce them in a factory.
Or you could just make a gun with base stats.
And it was the same for every item you could craft in SWG.
that is not what I said.
1. was there a 'stat' literally called quality? 2. did that 'stat' (called quality) affect the stat called 'durability' in that item? 3. did it take multiple tools (which are also created) with to increase the stat called 'durability' to an already existing component or item. 4. if an item got to durablity of zero did the item break?
SWG maybe a wonderful system, it might even better system in Wurm. But its stupid to call the quality system the same.
The original claim was that the improvement phase is unique to Wurm, it was/is not, as you had a "phase" during crafting in SWG (called Experimentation) where you could improve items you were crafting.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
The original claim was that the improvement phase is unique to Wurm, it was/is not, as you had a "phase" during crafting in SWG (called Experimentation) where you could improve items you were crafting.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
this right here is very literally all you had to say:
'Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.'
When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
...
completely and totally not correct.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
I looked up some youtube videos of Wurm to see the crafting, would you mind sharing something that is representative of what you consider "good crafting"? Because all I'm finding is dialogue boxes with "create" buttons and a progress bar that fills when it's clicked. I do not care in the slightest about how many items you have to collect and assemble. Opening up an in-game wiki which tells you that to build an X you need Y items, then just clicking "create" etc ad nauseam. That's not crafting. That's literally collecting stuff.
You're more than welcome to show me something in which crafting is a process that you engage in (Minecraft is an example of the process of crafting, but it's pretty limited in terms of how you interact - which is why it's still lame).
I leathercraft IRL. Almost the entire time is spent in the process of crafting, I do not need to go collect 5 hides to make a backpack. Nor do I go through 20 needles. Because crafting is not collecting. Possessing a list of items and then pressing a button to combine them is not crafting.
I agree that crafting should be engaging and that it's almost impossible to find fun and engaging crafting. the video below is someone making a hatchet blade, having to hit the metal with a compliment of tools in exact spots to get the highest possible quality blade. It's difficult to pull off even when using a video like this :P A tale in the desert is the best implimentation imo, I wish some AAA studio would be pick up the great ideas and make them in a modern game.
we have already gotten waaaay far off my assertion and why I made the assertion.
My assertion has nothing whatsoever to do with 'good' crafting but rather a response to directly what he claimed on the specifics
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"? "Crafting" is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game.
...
completely and totally not correct.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
I looked up some youtube videos of Wurm to see the crafting, would you mind sharing something that is representative of what you consider "good crafting"? Because all I'm finding is dialogue boxes with "create" buttons and a progress bar that fills when it's clicked. I do not care in the slightest about how many items you have to collect and assemble. Opening up an in-game wiki which tells you that to build an X you need Y items, then just clicking "create" etc ad nauseam. That's not crafting. That's literally collecting stuff.
You're more than welcome to show me something in which crafting is a process that you engage in (Minecraft is an example of the process of crafting, but it's pretty limited in terms of how you interact - which is why it's still lame).
I leathercraft IRL. Almost the entire time is spent in the process of crafting, I do not need to go collect 5 hides to make a backpack. Nor do I go through 20 needles. Because crafting is not collecting. Possessing a list of items and then pressing a button to combine them is not crafting.
dont confused 'good crafting' with your original assertion and my take on it.
1. '"acquisition and trading"? Wurm is an example of how accusation and trading is not part of crafting or the intrest of it. Wurm is only one example of many.
2. 'is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game' Again with likely hunderds of recipes nearly all of which produce items that are of use and in many cases are items that are prerequisites for larger items it becomes a LOT more complex and detailed then lets say EQ2 and in the case of Wurm it not a mini-game but rather THE game.
I never said anything about 'good' or not. I am directly reflecting on specifically what you said, not something else so lets not divert
You stated Wurm online. So what it doesn't have trading? That doesn't change that there's no crafting in the game. Clicking a button is not crafting. There's no crafting process involved. We're not even talking about degree of quality, just the simple fact that it doesn't exist (it doesn't).
Wurm online could just change the name of everything to a stamp and you have "stamp collecting, the MMO" and instead of the word "create" you could have "stick" and it sticks your stamp into a book. Zero crafting.
Who the f cares how many recipes exist in a game?
How does the volume of recipes change the fact that at no point do you craft anything?
I'm not diverting anything, collecting stuff is not and never will be a crafting process. So when people say "crafting" I want to know what they're referring to. Are they actually talking about crafting things, or are they talking about acquiring things (and maybe trading them)?
Aciaan at least shared something that shows a crafting process. You can then decide if it look good/fun to you, but at least there's a crafting process involved. Collecting items for an inventory has nothing to do with actual crafting. Not in concept, not in practice. Even in the real world, we differentiate these items in the supply chain, inventory management and manufacturing process. Wurm has a ton of material gathering and inventory management. It has no manufacturing process [that I have seen].
The original claim was that the improvement phase is unique to Wurm, it was/is not, as you had a "phase" during crafting in SWG (called Experimentation) where you could improve items you were crafting.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
why cant people on these forums focus on a direct, clear and related answer the first time
Really? I already said in a previous post that quality and durability could be improved, to which you implied I was being stupid, but that was not good enough for you.
Maybe you should learn to read when people do answer clearly, and directly, first time.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
You stated Wurm online. So what it doesn't have trading? That doesn't change that there's no crafting in the game. Clicking a button is not crafting. There's no crafting process involved. We're not even talking about degree of quality, just the simple fact that it doesn't exist (it doesn't).
Wurm online could just change the name of everything to a stamp and you have "stamp collecting, the MMO" and instead of the word "create" you could have "stick" and it sticks your stamp into a book. Zero crafting.
Who the f cares how many recipes exist in a game?
How does the volume of recipes change the fact that at no point do you craft anything?
I'm not diverting anything, collecting stuff is not and never will be a crafting process. So when people say "crafting" I want to know what they're referring to. Are they actually talking about crafting things, or are they talking about acquiring things (and maybe trading them)?
Aciaan at least shared something that shows a crafting process. You can then decide if it look good/fun to you, but at least there's a crafting process involved. Collecting items for an inventory has nothing to do with actual crafting. Not in concept, not in practice. Even in the real world, we differentiate these items in the supply chain, inventory management and manufacturing process. Wurm has a ton of material gathering and inventory management. It has no manufacturing process [that I have seen].
1. you said: 'When people say "crafting" are they actually talking about "acquisition and trading"?'
Wurm trading makes up about less 1% of player actions and in many cases (actually most) 0%. Yes it has trading and 'acquisition' but I am telling you most players do not participate in in it
2. Your impression of collecting I am telling you is horrible wrong. PEROID. The main aspect of crafting is NOT collecting shit. Its MAKING things that you USE to make others thing to STAY ALIVE.
3. what you are describing IS what AAA crafting is. It is NOT what non-AAA crafting is.
4. 'who the f cares how many recipes exist'? I do. and I want the items I make to have a purpose (which they do) I want the items to be interconnected to larger projects (which they are). HOWEVER, that is a DIFFERENT conversation.
I am interested in only two assertions you made which I am explaining to you that outside of the AAA horse bullshit thing thye call crafting not only doesnt exist but it laughable.
You might not like more advanced crafting and that is fine, debating over if its 'good' or not is a different conversation but you would do yourself a favor by at least getting some basic fundemental facts not fucking wrong
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
"What is stupid" is trying to claim they are the same process. SWG's system is more akin to Mortal Online's crafting system. Wurm's system addresses this issue:
Gather Materials > Execute Timer > Out Pops an Item
SWG and Mortal make it so that after you follow this process the item may be better or worse depending on the materials used. Either way, the process is done once you have executed those three steps which are the crafting steps of every MMO. While I'm not saying that isn't a meaningful or good change to the crafting system, it's absolutely not what I'm discussing when I talk about Wurm's improvement phase.
Gather Materials > Execute Timer > Out Pops Nearly Worthless Item > Improve Item Until Useful
That is the process of Wurm, and that last step is unique to Wurm. No matter how much you want to engage in the equivocation fallacy by pretending like any useage of the word improve qualifies the game as having a Wurm style improvement phase.
The original claim was that the improvement phase is unique to Wurm, it was/is not, as you had a "phase" during crafting in SWG (called Experimentation) where you could improve items you were crafting.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
why cant people on these forums focus on a direct, clear and related answer the first time
Really? I already said in a previous post that quality and durability could be improved, to which you implied I was being stupid, but that was not good enough for you.
Maybe you should learn to read when people do answer clearly, and directly, first time.
because the first sentence in your reply didnt say 'SWG has a quality value, didnt say SWG has a durablity value...no the first thing you decide to talk about is collecting materials which on casual observation appears to have a lack of understanding on what is important in the Wurm Quality process because it doesnt have dick to to with raw materials
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
"What is stupid" is trying to claim they are the same process. SWG's system is more akin to Mortal Online's crafting system. Wurm's system addresses this issue:
Gather Materials > Execute Timer > Out Pops an Item
SWG and Mortal make it so that after you follow this process the item may be better or worse depending on the materials used. Either way, the process is done once you have executed those three steps which are the crafting steps of every MMO. While I'm not saying that isn't a meaningful or good change to the crafting system, it's absolutely not what I'm discussing when I talk about Wurm's improvement phase.
Gather Materials > Execute Timer > Out Pops Nearly Worthless Item > Improve Item Until Useful
That is the process of Wurm, and that last step is unique to Wurm. No matter how much you want to engage in the equivocation fallacy by pretending like any useage of the word improve qualifies the game as having a Wurm style improvement phase.
Wrong again.
SWG is Gather Resources > Make Components-Experiment > Combine Components-Experiment > Execute Timer > out pops useful item, unique to you, because of resources used, and experimentation done.
or
Gather Resources > make components > combine components > Execute timer > out pops useless item
In both games, you have a crafted item that is useless, until/unless you improve it.
Also, once you experiment and craft the item in SWG, it can be improved further, for example, you could have it sliced, and have various changes made, or you could craft items that could be added to give more power or other improvements.
Still, having an improvement stage as part of crafting is not unique to wurm, as it was claimed, how it is done may be different, but being able to do it is not.
Also, lets be honest here, crafting in wurm is:
Gather materials > execute timer > out pops item > examine to see what is needed for improvement > add what is needed > execute timer > out pops better item > rinse and repeat
Not exactly deep is it.
Post edited by Excession on
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
The original claim was that the improvement phase is unique to Wurm, it was/is not, as you had a "phase" during crafting in SWG (called Experimentation) where you could improve items you were crafting.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
why cant people on these forums focus on a direct, clear and related answer the first time
Really? I already said in a previous post that quality and durability could be improved, to which you implied I was being stupid, but that was not good enough for you.
Maybe you should learn to read when people do answer clearly, and directly, first time.
because the first sentence in your reply didnt say 'SWG has a quality value, didnt say SWG has a durablity value...no the first thing you decide to talk about is collecting materials which on casual observation appears to have a lack of understanding on what is important in the Wurm Quality process because it doesnt have dick to to with raw materials
So, you did not read the post, that is all you had to say.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
The original claim was that the improvement phase is unique to Wurm, it was/is not, as you had a "phase" during crafting in SWG (called Experimentation) where you could improve items you were crafting.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
why cant people on these forums focus on a direct, clear and related answer the first time
Really? I already said in a previous post that quality and durability could be improved, to which you implied I was being stupid, but that was not good enough for you.
Maybe you should learn to read when people do answer clearly, and directly, first time.
because the first sentence in your reply didnt say 'SWG has a quality value, didnt say SWG has a durablity value...no the first thing you decide to talk about is collecting materials which on casual observation appears to have a lack of understanding on what is important in the Wurm Quality process because it doesnt have dick to to with raw materials
So, you did not read the post, that is all you had to say.
I have a great deal of experience with people commonly missing the core point and going off on a completely unrelated tangent or saying things are are so insanely off base that its painful to read.
so my suggestion is to get thoughts tight and organized and dive straight into the most important part of what I am saying other wise I will likely ignore it.
oh and dont throw shit out there randomly hoping it will stick.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
SEANMCAD said: I have a great deal of experience with people commonly missing the core point and going off on a completely unrelated tangent or saying things are are so insanely off base that its painful to read.
so my suggestion is to get thoughts tight and organized and dive straight into the most important part of what I am saying other wise I will likely ignore it.
oh and dont throw shit out there randomly hoping it will stick.
You actually just described most of your own posts there mate.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
SEANMCAD said: I have a great deal of experience with people commonly missing the core point and going off on a completely unrelated tangent or saying things are are so insanely off base that its painful to read.
so my suggestion is to get thoughts tight and organized and dive straight into the most important part of what I am saying other wise I will likely ignore it.
oh and dont throw shit out there randomly hoping it will stick.
You actually just described most of your own posts there mate.
no I didnt, which is my point. even the insults coming at me are random and not based on reality. my posts are very likely the least random of them all out here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
You're still trying to equate two entirely different processes. Experimentation and improvement are not the same process. Making it unique to the player doesn't change that. Experimentation is a process in which 90%+ of the effort goes into discovering what recipes to use to yield the best result. After you have that information it gets a lot simpler to make the items you want.
Improvement is a process where if you want to make a top tier (90+) quality sword, you're putting in hours. Every single time.
It also has very different implications. Suppose I'm a newb to Wurm. I craft myself a set of armor and sword that are very low quality. If I have an attachment to that set of gear because it's my first and I made it myself, barring some factors like it getting broken during enchantment or going to a PvP server and getting it stolen, I never have to replace that set of armor. Ever. I can improve it higher as my skills grow and eventually take my newby set of armor and make it as high as 100 QL.
That's because in Wurm the improvement process means rather than periodically replacing items, I just have to re-imp them periodically when their quality goes down. It's a system that has had certain regular items passed down as "artifacts" because of the history behind particular items can go on for years as a weapon grows and evolves with it's user. Can you say the same about the first set of armor you ever crafted in SWG?
You're still trying to equate two entirely different processes. Experimentation and improvement are not the same process. Making it unique to the player doesn't change that. Experimentation is a process in which 90%+ of the effort goes into discovering what recipes to use to yield the best result. After you have that information it gets a lot simpler to make the items you want.
Improvement is a process where if you want to make a top tier (90+) quality sword, you're putting in hours. Every single time.
No, I am not.
As I already said in an earlier post, Experimentation in SWG is Improvement in Wurm.
Different names for the same result, turning a base item into a better item.
You have the wrong idea about how experimentation in SWG worked/works.
Make it simple for you.
You want to craft a pistol, you need to make a pistol stock, and a barrel.
You need polymer for the stock, and metal for the barrel.
The worst polymer would give you a stock with base stats of 2 quality, and 1 durability. The worst metal would give you a barrel with base stats of 5 quality and 3 durability.
You could make the stock, and the barrel and combine them to make a pistol with base stats of 7 quality, and 4 durability.
Or you could improve the stock and the barrel by experimenting, which depending on your skill, and how you experiment, could improve the quality, or the durability, or both.
You could then combine the stock and the barrel, and it would give you a pistol with higher base stats, or you could combine the stock and barrel, and experiment again on the finished product, giving you the opportunity to improve the pistol even further.
Experimentation has nothing to do with discovering recipes at all.
You say putting in hours for improvement, but all you are really doing is waiting for the process bar to tick along until finished, just like any other crafting process.
It is basically:
Examine the item you want to improve to see what is needed (EG:/ log, chisel etc...)
Activate the improvement item or tool
Repair your item if needed.
Right click -> Improve
Wait for Process Bar
Rinse and Repeat
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
You're still trying to equate two entirely different processes. Experimentation and improvement are not the same process. Making it unique to the player doesn't change that. Experimentation is a process in which 90%+ of the effort goes into discovering what recipes to use to yield the best result. After you have that information it gets a lot simpler to make the items you want.
Improvement is a process where if you want to make a top tier (90+) quality sword, you're putting in hours. Every single time.
No, I am not.
As I already said in an earlier post, Experimentation in SWG is Improvement in Wurm.
Different names for the same result, turning a base item into a better item.
You have the wrong idea about how experimentation in SWG worked/works.
Make it simple for you.
You want to craft a pistol, you need to make a pistol stock, and a barrel.
You need polymer for the stock, and metal for the barrel.
The worst polymer would give you a stock with base stats of 2 quality, and 1 durability. The worst metal would give you a barrel with base stats of 5 quality and 3 durability.
You could make the stock, and the barrel and combine them to make a pistol with base stats of 7 quality, and 4 durability.
Or you could improve the stock and the barrel by experimenting, which depending on your skill, and how you experiment, could improve the quality, or the durability, or both.
You could then combine the stock and the barrel, and it would give you a pistol with higher base stats, or you could combine the stock and barrel, and experiment again on the finished product, giving you the opportunity to improve the pistol even further.
Experimentation has nothing to do with discovering recipes at all.
You say putting in hours for improvement, but all you are really doing is waiting for the process bar to tick along until finished, just like any other crafting process.
It is basically:
Examine the item you want to improve to see what is needed (EG:/ log, chisel etc...)
Activate the improvement item or tool
Repair your item if needed.
Right click -> Improve
Wait for Process Bar
Rinse and Repeat
its not how Wurm Quality system works HOWEVER, they both are close enough to each other to at this point think on what the fuck we are having this conversation for in the first place.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
You're still trying to equate two entirely different processes. Experimentation and improvement are not the same process. Making it unique to the player doesn't change that. Experimentation is a process in which 90%+ of the effort goes into discovering what recipes to use to yield the best result. After you have that information it gets a lot simpler to make the items you want.
Improvement is a process where if you want to make a top tier (90+) quality sword, you're putting in hours. Every single time.
No, I am not.
As I already said in an earlier post, Experimentation in SWG is Improvement in Wurm.
Different names for the same result, turning a base item into a better item.
You have the wrong idea about how experimentation in SWG worked/works.
Make it simple for you.
You want to craft a pistol, you need to make a pistol stock, and a barrel.
You need polymer for the stock, and metal for the barrel.
The worst polymer would give you a stock with base stats of 2 quality, and 1 durability. The worst metal would give you a barrel with base stats of 5 quality and 3 durability.
You could make the stock, and the barrel and combine them to make a pistol with base stats of 7 quality, and 4 durability.
Or you could improve the stock and the barrel by experimenting, which depending on your skill, and how you experiment, could improve the quality, or the durability, or both.
You could then combine the stock and the barrel, and it would give you a pistol with higher base stats, or you could combine the stock and barrel, and experiment again on the finished product, giving you the opportunity to improve the pistol even further.
Experimentation has nothing to do with discovering recipes at all.
You say putting in hours for improvement, but all you are really doing is waiting for the process bar to tick along until finished, just like any other crafting process.
It is basically:
Examine the item you want to improve to see what is needed (EG:/ log, chisel etc...)
Activate the improvement item or tool
Repair your item if needed.
Right click -> Improve
Wait for Process Bar
Rinse and Repeat
its not how Wurm Quality system works HOWEVER, they both are close enough to each other to at this point think on what the fuck we are having this conversation for in the first place.
But what else are we going to do on a slow Monday night?
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
You're still trying to equate two entirely different processes. Experimentation and improvement are not the same process. Making it unique to the player doesn't change that. Experimentation is a process in which 90%+ of the effort goes into discovering what recipes to use to yield the best result. After you have that information it gets a lot simpler to make the items you want.
Improvement is a process where if you want to make a top tier (90+) quality sword, you're putting in hours. Every single time.
No, I am not.
As I already said in an earlier post, Experimentation in SWG is Improvement in Wurm.
Different names for the same result, turning a base item into a better item.
You have the wrong idea about how experimentation in SWG worked/works.
Make it simple for you.
You want to craft a pistol, you need to make a pistol stock, and a barrel.
You need polymer for the stock, and metal for the barrel.
The worst polymer would give you a stock with base stats of 2 quality, and 1 durability. The worst metal would give you a barrel with base stats of 5 quality and 3 durability.
You could make the stock, and the barrel and combine them to make a pistol with base stats of 7 quality, and 4 durability.
Or you could improve the stock and the barrel by experimenting, which depending on your skill, and how you experiment, could improve the quality, or the durability, or both.
You could then combine the stock and the barrel, and it would give you a pistol with higher base stats, or you could combine the stock and barrel, and experiment again on the finished product, giving you the opportunity to improve the pistol even further.
Experimentation has nothing to do with discovering recipes at all.
You say putting in hours for improvement, but all you are really doing is waiting for the process bar to tick along until finished, just like any other crafting process.
It is basically:
Examine the item you want to improve to see what is needed (EG:/ log, chisel etc...)
Activate the improvement item or tool
Repair your item if needed.
Right click -> Improve
Wait for Process Bar
Rinse and Repeat
its not how Wurm Quality system works HOWEVER, they both are close enough to each other to at this point think on what the fuck we are having this conversation for in the first place.
But what else are we going to do on a slow Monday night?
I think reaching out to SWG, Wurm, Tails in the Desert, and Life is Feudal as evidence of crafting system that isnt only as deep as a 2 year olds vocabulary is evidence enough that 'mainstream' MMOs when it comes to crafting is a disasterous insult to anyone with 1/2 a brain.
there i capped it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
It's largely non-interactive and boring. You never actually engage in a crafting process, it's mostly about collecting, which isn't really crafting.
Maybe if crafting an item was more like a raid boss in terms of having a hotbar full of "crafting abilities" that you have to time and use appropriately within an items context over the duration of X number of minutes to craft an item, then it might be interesting - with the quality of the item increasing based on accuracy and your skill in developing components of the item. Almost like a dps meter of crafting where the better you perform, the better an item you create.
This might be correct for those AAA MMOs only but outside of that its not remotely accurate
I am not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, crafting outside of AAA MMOs is ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT. Wurm (as one example) is light years away from EQ2 and anyone who has only been exposed to the most remedial of crafting to the point they think EQ2 is advanced has not the single most remote clue what I am talking about nor appears to be able to conceive it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You're more than welcome to show me something in which crafting is a process that you engage in (Minecraft is an example of the process of crafting, but it's pretty limited in terms of how you interact - which is why it's still lame).
I leathercraft IRL. Almost the entire time is spent in the process of crafting, I do not need to go collect 5 hides to make a backpack. Nor do I go through 20 needles. Because crafting is not collecting. Possessing a list of items and then pressing a button to combine them is not crafting.
1. '"acquisition and trading"? Wurm is an example of how accusation and trading is not part of crafting or the intrest of it. Wurm is only one example of many.
2. 'is almost universally just clicking a button with a handful of games offering a brief mini-game'
Again with likely hunderds of recipes nearly all of which produce items that are of use and in many cases are items that are prerequisites for larger items it becomes a LOT more complex and detailed then lets say EQ2 and in the case of Wurm it not a mini-game but rather THE game.
I never said anything about 'good' or not. I am directly reflecting on specifically what you said, not something else so lets not divert
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You started by going out, and searching for the best resources you could find, harvesting them, then you made all the components you need to make the item you want.
Each resource had its own set of stats.
Each component had base values, determined by the stats of the resources used, and you could experiment on each component, improving the quality of that component, you could also, if you wanted to, make a blueprint of the improved component and then use a factory to mass produce them.
Once you had all the components you needed, you could then put them together to make the item, for example, a gun, which would have base stats determined by the components you used, and then experiment on that gun, make improvements to it, included quality and durability, and once again, if you wanted to, you could make a blueprint from it, and mass produce them in a factory.
Or you could just make a gun with base stats.
And it was the same for every item you could craft in SWG.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
1. was there a 'stat' literally called quality?
2. did that 'stat' (called quality) affect the stat called 'durability' in that item?
3. did it take multiple tools (which are also created) with to increase the stat called 'durability' to an already existing component or item.
4. if an item got to durablity of zero did the item break?
SWG maybe a wonderful system, it might even better system in Wurm. But its stupid to call the quality system the same.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
A tale in the desert is the best implimentation imo, I wish some AAA studio would be pick up the great ideas and make them in a modern game.
Why are you using a straw man to counter the fact that saying being able to improve crafted items in Wurm is unique to Wurm is wrong?
But since you did, ok.
Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.
Yes, items with 0 Durability were broken, had to be replaced.
Yes, there were multiple crafting tools which you could create, and were used during the various crafting processes, including Experimentation.
What is stupid, is trying to claim Wurm and its improvement phase are unique, when they clearly are not.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
'Yes, Quality was a stat on items, as was Durability, and yes, both could be improved via experimentation (SWGs improvement phase). The higher the Quality, the better the Durability.'
Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/466457/looking-for-mmog-with-world-class-crafting/p4#kGKhBU32fwbgihSx.99'
why cant people on these forums focus on a direct, clear and related answer the first time
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
My assertion has nothing whatsoever to do with 'good' crafting but rather a response to directly what he claimed on the specifics
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Wurm online could just change the name of everything to a stamp and you have "stamp collecting, the MMO" and instead of the word "create" you could have "stick" and it sticks your stamp into a book. Zero crafting.
Who the f cares how many recipes exist in a game?
How does the volume of recipes change the fact that at no point do you craft anything?
I'm not diverting anything, collecting stuff is not and never will be a crafting process. So when people say "crafting" I want to know what they're referring to. Are they actually talking about crafting things, or are they talking about acquiring things (and maybe trading them)?
Aciaan at least shared something that shows a crafting process. You can then decide if it look good/fun to you, but at least there's a crafting process involved. Collecting items for an inventory has nothing to do with actual crafting. Not in concept, not in practice. Even in the real world, we differentiate these items in the supply chain, inventory management and manufacturing process. Wurm has a ton of material gathering and inventory management. It has no manufacturing process [that I have seen].
Maybe you should learn to read when people do answer clearly, and directly, first time.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Wurm trading makes up about less 1% of player actions and in many cases (actually most) 0%. Yes it has trading and 'acquisition' but I am telling you most players do not participate in in it
2. Your impression of collecting I am telling you is horrible wrong. PEROID. The main aspect of crafting is NOT collecting shit. Its MAKING things that you USE to make others thing to STAY ALIVE.
3. what you are describing IS what AAA crafting is. It is NOT what non-AAA crafting is.
4. 'who the f cares how many recipes exist'? I do. and I want the items I make to have a purpose (which they do) I want the items to be interconnected to larger projects (which they are). HOWEVER, that is a DIFFERENT conversation.
I am interested in only two assertions you made which I am explaining to you that outside of the AAA horse bullshit thing thye call crafting not only doesnt exist but it laughable.
You might not like more advanced crafting and that is fine, debating over if its 'good' or not is a different conversation but you would do yourself a favor by at least getting some basic fundemental facts not fucking wrong
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Gather Materials > Execute Timer > Out Pops an Item
SWG and Mortal make it so that after you follow this process the item may be better or worse depending on the materials used. Either way, the process is done once you have executed those three steps which are the crafting steps of every MMO. While I'm not saying that isn't a meaningful or good change to the crafting system, it's absolutely not what I'm discussing when I talk about Wurm's improvement phase.
Gather Materials > Execute Timer > Out Pops Nearly Worthless Item > Improve Item Until Useful
That is the process of Wurm, and that last step is unique to Wurm. No matter how much you want to engage in the equivocation fallacy by pretending like any useage of the word improve qualifies the game as having a Wurm style improvement phase.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
SWG is Gather Resources > Make Components-Experiment > Combine Components-Experiment > Execute Timer > out pops useful item, unique to you, because of resources used, and experimentation done.
or
Gather Resources > make components > combine components > Execute timer > out pops useless item
In both games, you have a crafted item that is useless, until/unless you improve it.
Also, once you experiment and craft the item in SWG, it can be improved further, for example, you could have it sliced, and have various changes made, or you could craft items that could be added to give more power or other improvements.
Still, having an improvement stage as part of crafting is not unique to wurm, as it was claimed, how it is done may be different, but being able to do it is not.
Also, lets be honest here, crafting in wurm is:
Gather materials > execute timer > out pops item > examine to see what is needed for improvement > add what is needed > execute timer > out pops better item > rinse and repeat
Not exactly deep is it.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
so my suggestion is to get thoughts tight and organized and dive straight into the most important part of what I am saying other wise I will likely ignore it.
oh and dont throw shit out there randomly hoping it will stick.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Improvement is a process where if you want to make a top tier (90+) quality sword, you're putting in hours. Every single time.
It also has very different implications. Suppose I'm a newb to Wurm. I craft myself a set of armor and sword that are very low quality. If I have an attachment to that set of gear because it's my first and I made it myself, barring some factors like it getting broken during enchantment or going to a PvP server and getting it stolen, I never have to replace that set of armor. Ever. I can improve it higher as my skills grow and eventually take my newby set of armor and make it as high as 100 QL.
That's because in Wurm the improvement process means rather than periodically replacing items, I just have to re-imp them periodically when their quality goes down. It's a system that has had certain regular items passed down as "artifacts" because of the history behind particular items can go on for years as a weapon grows and evolves with it's user. Can you say the same about the first set of armor you ever crafted in SWG?
As I already said in an earlier post, Experimentation in SWG is Improvement in Wurm.
Different names for the same result, turning a base item into a better item.
You have the wrong idea about how experimentation in SWG worked/works.
Make it simple for you.
You want to craft a pistol, you need to make a pistol stock, and a barrel.
You need polymer for the stock, and metal for the barrel.
The worst polymer would give you a stock with base stats of 2 quality, and 1 durability.
The worst metal would give you a barrel with base stats of 5 quality and 3 durability.
You could make the stock, and the barrel and combine them to make a pistol with base stats of 7 quality, and 4 durability.
Or you could improve the stock and the barrel by experimenting, which depending on your skill, and how you experiment, could improve the quality, or the durability, or both.
You could then combine the stock and the barrel, and it would give you a pistol with higher base stats, or you could combine the stock and barrel, and experiment again on the finished product, giving you the opportunity to improve the pistol even further.
Experimentation has nothing to do with discovering recipes at all.
You say putting in hours for improvement, but all you are really doing is waiting for the process bar to tick along until finished, just like any other crafting process.
It is basically:
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
there i capped it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me