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*RANT* I am now simply clicking through the story...



  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,194

    They should have gone with Instanced housing. It's the most common implementation of housing in MMORPGs, and for very good reason - not least of all being that it pretty much guarantees that demand will never exceed availability, to the extent that a player can own *multiple* houses if they so choose (EQ2, I believe, allows up to 20).

    Just to nitpick, since it seems that is what this thread is all about.

    FFXIV housing is instanced. Heavily instanced actually, as each District contains multiple "Wards". Each ward contains, what, about 60 plots of various sizes? 

    There is absolutely nothing stopping S/E from adding more instances and making a nearly-unlimited amount of housing. But they are using it as a gil-sink, so to keep the value high, they need to restrict the availability.

    Of course it's a server limitation. It's by design a server limitation, and one they could alleviate at any point if they chose to do so. But they are using it as a counter balance to the economy, so purchasing power is what is ultimately driving Yoshi-P's decision to add more housing plots available.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 16,009
    I think leveling in a duo would be a lot of fun. It didn't work for me solo and I didn't find a guild before I lost steam and my month ended. I'd give it another go under the right circumstances though.

    If the storyline in a game grabs me great. If not, but I still like the combat and other stuff then I don't care that much. Yeah I wish the story would have worked, but at the end of the day I'll just click through and get on with other stuff, and that's okay with me.

    I like how EQ2 does housing miles better. It's easily accessible at an entry level, but building a cool house takes a lot of effort and usually time. I don't care about the technical excuses for FF14's housing. LotRO pulled the same excuses for years and it doesn't pass muster. They eventually had to revamp the system. ESO and Rift both have okay housing too, but with EQ2 it's so nicely integrated into the entire game experience. That's what makes it stand out, not just that it's hookless and open, but the seamless integration into the rest of the game experience making personal and guild houses relevant.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 1,109
    lahnmir said:

    Took me a bit to get back around to this post but, having now read it, there's quite a bit to unpack here, so... Let's get to it.

    I'll start with the closing statement:
    "EQ2 might have 'bigger' housing but I still prefer a small diamond over a giant turd  ;) "
    Well, your "smiley" of apparent self-satisfaction notwithstanding, this has a couple major problems right off the bat. You commit two sins in a single sentence. Impressive!

    You are (1) creating a false dichotomy, and (2) asserting a matter of personal taste/preference as though it were one of the only two options (ie. "turd" or "diamond").

    Put another way... Someone who doesn't share your opinion of EQ2 doesn't have to choose one or the other. They can get the "big and shiny diamond". Several of them, actually, if they want.

    And I won't start talking about a graphics comparison, lets just say that FF14 is one of the, if not the, best looking MMOs right now.

    Say it all you like, in as many ways as you like. It's personal preference/taste. Nothing more.

    Quite an unfair comparison. FF14 was built with the ps3 in mind, a console from 2006 which when it comes to specs was somewhat like a high end spec PC from 2004, it also has severe memory restrictions that needed to be worked around. EQ2 to this day is an unoptimised mess that could hardly be played on hardware from these days, FF14 ran almost perfect on the PS3.
    Lots to unpack here, too...

    Yoshida/SE has gone on record citing housing restrictions as being a limitation of server power. I've not found a single source where he cites PS3 as being a reason why housing is continuously limited, no matter how many times they expand/update it. PS3 limitations affect how many decorations can be placed in your yard/house, due to memory limits... which is a result of poor design/planning and resource management on his part, starting with and stemming directly from  how he chose to implement housing in the first place.

    Yoshida and his team knew the limitations/restrictions of the PS3. They knew how much they could throw at it, how much memory they had to play with. More poignantly, they knew what their server infrastructure was; after all, they designed it.

    Regardless, they proceeded to paint themselves into a corner by going with a system that devoured those resources, leaving them in a position they've been unable to overcome since.

    Sadder still, there's simply no good excuse for it.

    They had numerous other examples in the genre to look at, to see ways others had successfully implemented housing in a way that was both highly functional, and - more importantly -  accessible to all players, without having to use exorbitant costs as a barrier to "keep demand down".

    They should have gone with Instanced housing. It's the most common implementation of housing in MMORPGs, and for very good reason - not least of all being that it pretty much guarantees that demand will never exceed availability, to the extent that a player can own *multiple* houses if they so choose (EQ2, I believe, allows up to 20).

    But no, Yoshida and his team - per their own say-so "underestimated how popular housing would be" and didn't bother to plan or design for anything beyond what they *assumed* people would want.

    Adding insult to injury, this is *after* they'd already had their expectations exceeded with XIV's re-launch, nevermind how popular a request housing was prior to its official announcement.

    So what's the deal there? Is Yoshida and co. just perpetually pessimistic about their own product? Terminally out of touch with their own playerbase, perhaps? Really slow learners, maybe?

    Even FFXI, developed for even *weaker* hardware (PS2) offered more utility and availability (one house per character, guaranteed), right out of the gate than FFXIV. And, despite the PS2's limitations, they went on to expand on it continuously over the years.

    How could they do this, despite hardware, infrastructure and console limitations far more restrictive than even the PS3? Again: Instancing - and a demonstrably better grasp on the limits of their hardware and infrastructure.

    You'd *think* maybe they'd have looked to see how FFXI did it, nevermind myriad other titles with similar implementations. You know, build off the knowledge and experience of those who came before you, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel and making the same mistakes.

    Yoshida thought he knew better, I guess.

    But let's get back to EQ2. You address, as I did, that EQ2 was an unpolished, poorly optimized game that ran poorly on even high-end hardware of the time. This is true, and I noted as much even in my previous comments. It's on record that SOE had decided to place all their technology eggs for EQ2's engine in the basket of a CPU architecture that ultimately never came to pass. It screwed them and their game over for years to come. No secret there.

    Yet... Yet.... Despite that. Despite EQ2's poor performance, poor optimization and so forth.. They still managed to implement a housing system that utterly eclipses that of a MMORPG developed almost a decade later. One that allows every player *multiple* houses if they wish, and provides  *far* more control over exactly how it's decorated. Items can be placed anywhere, arbitrarily, even in mid-air, if so wished. They could be rotated and scaled and arranged in creative, interesting ways. Players could own multiple homes, could place teleporters connecting all their individual houses into one huge one if they wish. And so on.

    I know your intent in pointing out EQ2's poor performance, etc was meant to prove the contrary... but you've only underscored my point.

    FFXIV's housing wasn't only outshined by that of EQ2, an unpolished, unoptimized dog of an engine designed over a decade ago, *despite* its problems... It was also outshined by FFXI, a MMORPG *by the very same developer*, designed to work on even *more* inferior technology and hardware.

    FFXIV's housing is a shining example of how *not* to design and implement a housing system in a mainstream MMO. Unless you want to be dealing with constant limitations and restrictions, year after year, patch after patch. If that's the goal, then it's a stellar case study.

    Thanks for the elaborate response, let me clarify a few things.

    The smiley was meant to show the comparison wasn't all that serious, an exaggeration so to say.
    I actually really like EQ2 contrary to what you might think.
    Graphics are a matter of taste indeed, but come on, the difference here is staggering, even subjectively.

    You seem very frustrated with FF14 and I can understand that, especially compared to FF11. I'm not saying FF14 has fantastic housing btw, I do stand with my point that they had more limitations to take into consideration though. And perhaps EQ2 just had a bigger focus on housing in the first place although that is just guessing from my side.

    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 5,095
    I do love the housing in EQ2 and was sorely disappointed with FFXIV  in this respect.
  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 1,986
    You aren't the first person to be taken aback at the level of drudgery in the mandatory story quest design that grows with every expansion. Then add in the only solution Square has provided is, you pay them to not play their game.

    I said in their forums when they introduced the jump potion idea is, we all get a free one with some sort of unique alternative for anyone who didn't want it. Something substantial like a decorated apartment or something.

    short version, you are right. It's a bullshit system designed to waste time and pad the development cycle with more time than even they need.
  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 781
    I actually do not think Yoshida underestimated housing. 

    Japanese Developers look to their competition and always learn from them by incorporating elements that appeals to the culture and attitude of that geographic region. 

    One of the reasons why every major game incorporates some form of PvP regardless of its quality is due to the fact that no one in Asia takes your game as a serious AAA+++ MMORPG if it does not have PvP in it. 

    Asian Markets are all about public relations. Square-Enix is amazing at public relations. Problem is that so are every other company. They are so amazing that they can convince the world to follow and support a dead game and be allowed a chance to correct their "mistakes" and before you know it... out comes ARR and now its successful.

    You can bet that when housing was designed, they tried their own system based on what happened. What they did was combine Personal Housing with Guild Housing. However, that backfired for many reasons. 

    One big reason was because when housing was released, many rich players scooped up as many houses as they could find so they can resell them for 3 - 10x of their worth across their characters. I remember walking around the streets and seeing for activity outside the house to find most felt abandoned to me (or houses not in use) due to players hoarding them trying to make a buck off them. 

    What Yoshida did not expect was the greed of the playerbase to create the housing problem and then the players who did not own housing complaining about housing in general. All Yoshida had to do was program the housing originally to be "Only 1 house to be bought per account" and be done with it. 

    I had my problem with FF XIV, especially after playing FF XI, but I did like the existence of culture in the game. I liked how the graphics of the game looked because Square-Enix has its style that says "This is a Square-Enix game" and personally speaking...

    What I liked about FF XIV was that I was able to play the game without Rushing through it and see everything and then leave. Instead of Rushing in a 1 - 2 weeks to see the main story line, I went through the game and everything it offered back then in 4 months. I dabbled a little here and a little there and enjoyed being a white mage. 

    The reason I am not over-bitching about not seeing an FF XI clone was because FF XI was FF XI and FF XIV is FF XIV. Each time the industry tries to clone something exact, it loses out. I didn't seeing the story. 

    My big problem with FF XIV was that it catered to large guilds and most of the guilds I joined only cared about a player's activity level to get FC points, while the FC members themselves were mostly Chat-Warriors. I remember going through three major FCs and several minor ones during my stay in the game, but I could count on my fingers how many members I regularly met of each FC. 

    Party-Finder was far more reliable than asking anyone in any FC to form a party. :( 

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member UncommonPosts: 705
    edited January 20
    Quote:  "Japanese Developers look to their competition and always learn from them by incorporating elements that appeals to the culture and attitude of that geographic region."

    Since when?

    Japanese developers have always developed for Japanese audiences and then given us the product because there is a market segment of people who are very interested in Japanese Art and Game Design.  This is why FF became popular here.  They didn't change up the way they developed RPG games for the North American Market...  They gave us that product and people ate it up.

    I don't see why they would change it for their MMORPGs.

    Korea does the same thing.  The changes they make for the games they release here are almost always superficial.  The core gameplay is always pretty much identical to what they release in Korea.

    Japanese developers are no different.  Whenever American players complain about certain things, they do nothing but make excuses for it...  Or simply tell you that's the way it is - take it or leave it.
    Post edited by Darksworm on
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,296
    I remember when I leveled a new character on a new realm. Hitting the end of ARR and into the quests in between ARR and HW, took about a weekend to burn through. Probably could have done it faster, but I watched most of the cut scenes.
  • emperorhades1emperorhades1 Member UncommonPosts: 60
    ARR gave me hope, I played the entire game.  I was thrilled with the visuals and multiclassing just like FFXI.  The problem there was no penalty or true specializations.  My main class was a dragoon.  But at end game, I had basically a 4 keystroke combo with a stun alternative on some fights.  The positional system where my dragoon was suppose to spear through a correctly aligned set of mobs never came to pass.  Has any of this been fixed?
  • cjmarshcjmarsh Member UncommonPosts: 299
    It's such a well made game but every time I try to come back to it all I can get to is the chicken mounts and think... 'No.'
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member UncommonPosts: 705
    edited January 30
    I tried it.  The story is not that interesting.  WoW's was more interesting, especially the OG WoW zones like the Plaguelands.  I remember playing through those zones, and they were legitimately interesting to the point that I stayed and finished the quests even after I had outleveled the zone.

    I remember reading the quests in OG WoW, BC, WoTLK, Cataclysm, Warlords of Draenor, and Legion (I skipped Pandaria).  FFXIV's story content simply did not draw me in.

    I am not just biased to certain lore, either.  The Lore in ESO was legitimately interesting and I bought the game specifically to play through it - even though I quit immediately after I finished the main story quest in it.  Diablo III's story was quite interesting - almost like reading a history book :-)  I had no issues reading the quests in EQ2, and there are more of them than in FFXIV.  GW2's story was very interesting - I played it similarly to the way I played ESO (barely logged in after finishing it).

    There is something about how they integrate the story into the game that puts me off.  There are too many fetch quests and "run 1,000 miles" quests that serve almost no purpose.  TOo much stuff is locked behind quests, which make you leave the zone you're questing in to go ALL THE WAY BACK to the city to do class quests just so you can get access to the new spell you want.

    It doesn't help that the UI is awful, and feels like a Windows 95 Application with all of those menus and windows, either.

    The best thing about this game is that you can level all classes on the same toon - but when you actually experience the leveling process, and how boring it is...  You actually stop caring about the conveniences the game has (it's true innovations).

    I still like the game, in theory.  I just can't play it.

    I was clicking through the story without reading anything by level 5.

    Nothing in the game really felt exciting.  It felt slow and throttled, with massive amounts of time sinks and roadblocks.

    I felt like I spent half of my playtime running from place to place.
    Post edited by Darksworm on
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